Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>From: "=> Vox Populi ©" Vox Populi ©" >

Only meaningless junk to those who have none.
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Big Dave]

Considering what bravery and sacrifice is require to be awarded most medals
that is a pretty thoughtless and ignorant statement to make I agree with
Art.

B D

[Joey Bishop]

"Big Dave" <david > wrote
> Considering what bravery and sacrifice is require to be awarded most medals
> that is a pretty thoughtless and ignorant statement to make I agree with
> Art.

Medals are pretty much purely something out of the past. Today, most soldiers
compare them to the gold and silver stars they got in grade school. The Armies
penchant for giving out unit awards, or block allocations, pretty much dilutes
any benefit. I.e., "we can't decide who to give the medal to, so, heck, we are
going to give the whole unit a medal! You've all done an outstanding job, and
oh! the Commander would like a higher body count, thank you."

[Tarver Engineering]

"Joey Bishop" > wrote in message
...
> "Big Dave" <david > wrote
> > Considering what bravery and sacrifice is require to be awarded most
medals
> > that is a pretty thoughtless and ignorant statement to make I agree with
> > Art.
>
> Medals are pretty much purely something out of the past. Today, most
soldiers
> compare them to the gold and silver stars they got in grade school. The
Armies
> penchant for giving out unit awards, or block allocations, pretty much
dilutes
> any benefit.

Combat experiance is helpful for the career of a soldier.

> I.e., "we can't decide who to give the medal to, so, heck, we are
> going to give the whole unit a medal! You've all done an outstanding job,
and
> oh! the Commander would like a higher body count, thank you."

What would it take to get you to jump out of an airplane with people on the
ground shooting at you? The medal is just a piece of tin, it is the deed
that was recognized that has value.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>From: "Joey Bishop"
>Date: 8/30/03 9:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"Big Dave" <david > wrote
>> Considering what bravery and sacrifice is require to be awarded most medals
>> that is a pretty thoughtless and ignorant statement to make I agree with
>> Art.
>
>Medals are pretty much purely something out of the past. Today, most
>soldiers
>compare them to the gold and silver stars they got in grade school. The
>Armies
>penchant for giving out unit awards, or block allocations, pretty much
>dilutes
>any benefit. I.e., "we can't decide who to give the medal to, so, heck, we
>are
>going to give the whole unit a medal! You've all done an outstanding job, and
>oh! the Commander would like a higher body count, thank you."
>
>

Please list your medals, battle stars and theatre ribbons as well as oak leaf
clusters and all the missions you have flown. .Try to keep it down to 5 or 6
pages at the most even if you have to leave 40 or 50 missions out..we all await
your long list anxiously



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Joey Bishop]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> Congrats on the good conduct. I assume you will return all others with a note
> of distain re: "the meaningless junk"..

Hey fluffy, I didn't start the thread, so don't go postal on me...

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>From: "Jeremy Olson"
>Date: 8/30/03 9:47 PM Pacific

> BSMs citing bravery typically read: "Moving his machine gun to a
>> >> forward vantage point, he covered the advance of the infantry with a
>> >> heavy volume of effective fire. Repeatedly exposing himself to a
>> >> devastating small-arms automatic weapons and mortar barrage ..." Or:
>> >> "He voluntarily acted as point man and ... when the platoon was
>> >> fired upon ... charged the enemy position ... Through his courage,
>> >> determination and devotion to duty, he saved his patrol from
>> >> suffering casualties and captured a prisoner who later provided
>> >> important information."
>
> The above would warrant more than a Bronze Star. The Bronze Star is
>probably the most common medal.
>
>Jeremy Olson
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Sounds like Silver Star stuff to me. Now who was the ass who said this sort of
military action meant nothing? Some are just better soldiers than others.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Joey Bishop]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> Sounds like Silver Star stuff to me. Now who was the ass who said this sort of
> military action meant nothing? Some are just better soldiers than others.

I'm convinced that nuclear weapons are going to have to be used within
the next few years (China vs Formosa, Korea, and Iran). Does the Lt in
the silo get a Bronze, or a Silver for that?

[Bill Silvey]

"Joey Bishop" > wrote in message

> "ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> Sounds like Silver Star stuff to me. Now who was the ass who said
>> this sort of military action meant nothing? Some are just better
>> soldiers than others.
>
> I'm convinced that nuclear weapons are going to have to be used within
> the next few years (China vs Formosa, Korea, and Iran). Does the Lt
> in the silo get a Bronze, or a Silver for that?

I doubt it'll be anyone in a silo; lobbing an ICBM would be a surefire way
to cause the Russians to have kittens and use it as a step towards
retaliation.

It will be someone on an SSBN or B2.

--
http://www.delversdungeon.dragonsfoot.org
Remove the X's in my email address to respond.
"Damn you Silvey, and your endless fortunes." - Stephen Weir
I hate furries.

[John Smith]

"Joey Bishop" > wrote in message
.. .
> "ArtKramr" > wrote
> >
> > Please list your medals, battle stars and theatre ribbons as well as oak
leaf
> > clusters and all the missions you have flown. .Try to keep it down to 5
or 6
> > pages at the most even if you have to leave 40 or 50 missions out..we
all await
> > your long list anxiously
>
> Won't take that long:
>
> Expeditionary (1) cluster
> Air Medal (1) cluster
> Aerial Achievement (1) cluster
> Kuwait Liberation
> Good Conduct
>
> I could scan in my Flight records, but even my measly 5100 hours is
> pretty thick with small print. Then there's the 5,000 hours in C-141
> cargo status... Now that's what I *demand* a medal for...
>


You should have tried riding up front. The seats are much more comfortable.

[John Smith]

"Joey Bishop" > wrote in message
.. .
> "ArtKramr" > wrote
> >
> > Sounds like Silver Star stuff to me. Now who was the ass who said this
sort of
> > military action meant nothing? Some are just better soldiers than
others.
>
> I'm convinced that nuclear weapons are going to have to be used within
> the next few years (China vs Formosa, Korea, and Iran). Does the Lt in
> the silo get a Bronze, or a Silver for that?
>
>

Oh yea. They just gave a Bronze Star to an Air Traffic Controller in Kuwait
who,

"Successfully did his job for 100 hours. No friendly planes crashed into
each other." = BRONZE STAR.


Good thing ATC in Kuwait was working. Wow, don't know how I would have done
it without him. Funny thing was, the airspace measures in place for OIF
were VFR see and avoid. Only thing they provided was a warm fuzzy to the
fat kids out there with no radar.

[Mike Marron]

> (ArtKramr) wrote:

>Only meaningless junk to those who have none.

Dad generously handed his out to my brothers and me to
play with when he returned from 'Nam. We'd pin 'em on our
t-shirts, break off the delicate little parts or simply end up
losing 'em while horsing around outside with our young
playmates. In other words, they weren't "meaningless junk"
to my brothers and me who had none.

-Mike (the DFC was my fave) Marron

[David Lentz]

Joey Bishop wrote:
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote
> >
> > What would it take to get you to jump out of an airplane with people on the
> > ground shooting at you?
>
> A Lt at the back of the platoon with a pistol, who was told to shoot those
> who refused to jump. That'd be my standard :-)

Wrong role.

The Lieutenant is the first of out of the airplane. The top
sergeant is the guy at the end of the line with the big boot.

David

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>From: "John Smith"
>Date: 8/31/03 5:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: . net>
>
>
>"Joey Bishop" > wrote in message
.. .
>> "ArtKramr" > wrote
>> >
>> > Please list your medals, battle stars and theatre ribbons as well as oak
>leaf
>> > clusters and all the missions you have flown. .Try to keep it down to 5
>or 6
>> > pages at the most even if you have to leave 40 or 50 missions out..we
>all await
>> > your long list anxiously
>>
>> Won't take that long:
>>
>> Expeditionary (1) cluster
>> Air Medal (1) cluster
>> Aerial Achievement (1) cluster
>> Kuwait Liberation
>> Good Conduct
>>
>> I could scan in my Flight records, but even my measly 5100 hours is
>> pretty thick with small print. Then there's the 5,000 hours in C-141
>> cargo status... Now that's what I *demand* a medal for...
>>
>
>
>You should have tried riding up front. The seats are much more comfortable.
>
>

Yeah. Like in the nose of a bomber over Germany protected by 1/4 inch of
Plexiglas.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>From: "John Smith"
>Date: 8/31/03 5:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: . net>
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>> >From: "=> Vox Populi ©" Vox Populi ©" >
>>
>> Only meaningless junk to those who have none.
>> Arthur Kramer
>> 344th BG 494th BS
>> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>>
>
>Well, I have some and I have to agree in part. No they are not junk. The
>the military has watered them down by giving them out like candy to a point.
>
>I still respect the Silver Star and above, those seem to have been able to
>retain their worthiness. But most medals below that have been given out way
>too much to way too many people who didn't earn them.
>
We got one Air Medal for every 5 combat missions over Germany. And had you
flown those missions with you would realise that every AIr Medal was well
deserves and won the hard way. What about thr poor ******* that got shot down
on his 5th mission and his wife/kids.parebts got the medal aftewr his death.
Was thsat not fsairly won a nd well desrerved? We needed 65 missions to
complete a tour in B-26 Marauders. So guys walking around with 10 or more Air
Medals at a B-26 base was a common sight, And every one was fairly won and well
deserved including the ones won by guys who still lie over there to this day.
Lest we forget our absent friends.
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Joey Bishop]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> >I'm convinced that nuclear weapons are going to have to be used within
> >the next few years (China vs Formosa, Korea, and Iran). Does the Lt in
> >the silo get a Bronze, or a Silver for that?
> >
> >
> For what? He hasn't done anything yet. (sheesh)

It's a hypothetical fluffy... Go hit your balls...

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>From: "Joey Bishop"
>Date: 8/31/03 9:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> >I'm convinced that nuclear weapons are going to have to be used within
>> >the next few years (China vs Formosa, Korea, and Iran). Does the Lt in
>> >the silo get a Bronze, or a Silver for that?
>> >
>> >
>> For what? He hasn't done anything yet. (sheesh)
>
>It's a hypothetical fluffy... Go hit your balls...
>
>
>
A thouroughly mindless and vacious hypothetical at best Dumbo. You are a
waste of bandwith.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Gordon]

>
>Great story. It is what this NG was meant to be.
>

Thanks, Art - not up there with yours or Ed's exploits, but we all did our
part, at whatever level we could.

v/r
Gordon

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>From: "Joey Bishop"
>Date: 8/31/03 9:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> >I'm convinced that nuclear weapons are going to have to be used within
>> >the next few years (China vs Formosa, Korea, and Iran). Does the Lt in
>> >the silo get a Bronze, or a Silver for that?
>> >
>> >
>> For what? He hasn't done anything yet. (sheesh)
>
>It's a hypothetical fluffy... Go hit your balls...
>
>
>
A pretty mindless hypothetical dumbo.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>From: (Gordon)
>Date: 8/31/03 10:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>
>>Great story. It is what this NG was meant to be.
>>
>
>Thanks, Art - not up there with yours or Ed's exploits, but we all did our
>part, at whatever level we could.
>
>v/r
>Gordon

You did what you were trained to do. And did it extremely well. It is what the
military is all about. Wear your decorations with pride. They were well earned.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Gordon]

mighty cool thing to say Art. Maybe someday I can.

v/r
Gordon

[Joey Bishop]

"Gordon" > wrote
>
> mighty cool thing to say Art. Maybe someday I can.

Maybe not. Until then hold your duct-tape close.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>From: "Joey Bishop"
>Date: 8/31/03 11:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"Gordon" > wrote
>>
>> mighty cool thing to say Art. Maybe someday I can.
>
>Maybe not. Until then hold your duct-tape close.
>
>

I don't think that you are quit in Gordo's class Dumbo. Or anywhere close for
that matter,

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[av8r]

Hi Joey

I think Art's question is fair. What is your military experience?

Cheers...Chris

PAO 722nd SUS
DSN: 628-2663

[av8r]

BRAVO ZULU Gord!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers...Chris

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>From: (Gordon)
>Date: 8/31/03 11:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>>Maybe not. Until then hold your duct-tape close.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I don't think that you are quit in Gordo's class Dumbo.
>
>I have to confess I have no idea what he meant, Art! Usually, I am not so
>thick that I can't figure it out, but in this case, he's got me stumped.
>
>G
>

I think he has everyone stumped. Well bored at any rate.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Gordon]

>
>BRAVO ZULU Gord!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>

****, man, sure didnt seem like a BZ at the time! Danny and I recently met
again (he's a trooper in El Paso now) and we were able to joke about it....
but... still... :x lol

yfG

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, David Lentz
> writes
>Joey Bishop wrote:
>> A Lt at the back of the platoon with a pistol, who was told to shoot those
>> who refused to jump. That'd be my standard :-)
>
>Wrong role.
>The Lieutenant is the first of out of the airplane. The top
>sergeant is the guy at the end of the line with the big boot.

That's the way it works for infantry. The platoon commander is up front
leading the assault group and really hoping that his troops will follow
him.

The platoon _sergeant_ is either at the back of the assault group,
motivating men to follow their officer, or else with the fire-support
section (with the 51mm mortar and lots of automatic weapons) shooting
the assault group into the objective. In either case, a large part of
his job role is "being ready to jump into his commander's smoking
boots".

(British officer casualty rates for WW2: one in four. Other Ranks: one
in nine. Being in front, head up, shouting orders, gets you shot a
_lot_. Why did I try for it? Why was I so disappointed to be turned
down?)

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, Joey Bishop
> writes
>"Gordon" > wrote
>> mighty cool thing to say Art. Maybe someday I can.
>
>Maybe not. Until then hold your duct-tape close.

Your mother was a hedgehog and your father smelled of elderberries.

Now go away, or I shall taunt you again.

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, Mike Marron
> writes
>> (ArtKramr) wrote:
>>Only meaningless junk to those who have none.
>
>Dad generously handed his out to my brothers and me to
>play with when he returned from 'Nam. We'd pin 'em on our
>t-shirts, break off the delicate little parts or simply end up
>losing 'em while horsing around outside with our young
>playmates. In other words, they weren't "meaningless junk"
>to my brothers and me who had none.

My grandfather left me his medals when he died.

Meant a lot to me. And he sure as hell earned his. (Polish Air Force,
then RAF, then Guinea Pig)

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>From: "=> Vox Populi ©" Vox Populi ©" >
>Date: 8/31/03 2:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>ßÅÐŧ§ wrote:
>> "Zippy the Pinhead" > wrote in message
>> s.com...
>>> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:47:26 -0700, "Jeremy Olson"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> The above would warrant more than a Bronze Star. The Bronze

>After you get out, that and fifty cents will get you a cup of coffee.
>

The coffee will cost 50 cents no matter what. Better with the medal than
without.
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Mike Marron]

(ArtKramr) wrote:

>As I said, medals mean nothing only to those who don't have any.

Try telling that to the Cowardly Lion...

"Do you think Oz could give me courage?" asked the Cowardly Lion.

"Just as easily as he could give me brains," said the Scarecrow.

"Or give me a heart," said the Tin Woodman.

"Or send me back to Kansas," said Dorothy.

"Then, if you don't mind, I'll go with you," said the Lion, "for my
life is simply unbearable without a bit of courage."


-Mike Marron

[ArtKramr]

>ubject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>From: Mike Marron
>Date: 8/31/03 3:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>As I said, medals mean nothing only to those who don't have any.
>
>Try telling that to the Cowardly Lion...
>
>"Do you think Oz could give me courage?" asked the Cowardly Lion.
>
>"Just as easily as he could give me brains," said the Scarecrow.
>
>"Or give me a heart," said the Tin Woodman.
>
>"Or send me back to Kansas," said Dorothy.
>
>"Then, if you don't mind, I'll go with you," said the Lion, "for my
>life is simply unbearable without a bit of courage."
>
>
>-Mike Marron
>

You should know.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Alan Minyard]

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 16:45:46 GMT, "Joey Bishop" >
wrote:

>"Big Dave" <david > wrote
>> Considering what bravery and sacrifice is require to be awarded most medals
>> that is a pretty thoughtless and ignorant statement to make I agree with
>> Art.
>
>Medals are pretty much purely something out of the past. Today, most soldiers
>compare them to the gold and silver stars they got in grade school. The Armies
>penchant for giving out unit awards, or block allocations, pretty much dilutes
>any benefit. I.e., "we can't decide who to give the medal to, so, heck, we are
>going to give the whole unit a medal! You've all done an outstanding job, and
>oh! the Commander would like a higher body count, thank you."
>
Are you trolling or are you really that ignorant?

Al Minyard

[Alan Minyard]

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:47:26 -0700, "Jeremy Olson"
> wrote:

>
>"=> Vox Populi ©" > wrote in message
...
>> > "Replacement_Tommel"
>> > wrote in message ...
>> >
>> >>
>> >> © 2003 David H. Hackworth
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Jessica Lynch recently was awarded a Bronze Star Medal, a Purple
>> >> Heart and the POW Medal. The BSM citation reads: "For exemplary
>> >> courage under fire during combat operations to liberate Iraq, in
>> >> support of Operation Iraqi Freedom. Private First Class Lynch's
>> >> bravery and heart persevered while surviving in the ambush and
>> >> captivity in An Nasiriya."

> The above would warrant more than a Bronze Star. The Bronze Star is
>probably the most common medal.
>
>Jeremy Olson
>
The Bronze Star is not even close to being the most "common" medal.
You obviously have no knowledge in this area.

Al Minyard

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>From: Mike Marron
>Date: 8/31/03 3:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>> (ArtKramr) wrote:
>>>Mike Marron
>
>>>Try telling that to the Cowardly Lion...
>
>>>"Do you think Oz could give me courage?" asked the Cowardly Lion.
>
>>>"Just as easily as he could give me brains," said the Scarecrow.
>
>>>"Or give me a heart," said the Tin Woodman.
>
>>>"Or send me back to Kansas," said Dorothy.
>
>>>"Then, if you don't mind, I'll go with you," said the Lion, "for my
>>>life is simply unbearable without a bit of courage."
>
>
>>>-Mike Marron
>
>>You should know.
>
>I should know what? That you aren't a Cowardly Lion?
>
>-Mike Marron


Unlke you I have nothing to apologise for and nothing to explain.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Leadfoot]

"David Lentz" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Joey Bishop wrote:
> >
> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote
> > >
> > > What would it take to get you to jump out of an airplane with people
on the
> > > ground shooting at you?
> >
> > A Lt at the back of the platoon with a pistol, who was told to shoot
those
> > who refused to jump. That'd be my standard :-)
>
> Wrong role.
>
> The Lieutenant is the first of out of the airplane. The top
> sergeant is the guy at the end of the line with the big boot.


Much smarter to use the boot than the pistol. The trooper you kicked in the
ass may prove useful once he lands.


>
> David

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>From: Alan Minyard
>Date: 8/31/03 3:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 16:45:46 GMT, "Joey Bishop" >
>wrote:
>
>>"Big Dave" <david > wrote
>>> Considering what bravery and sacrifice is require to be awarded most
>medals
>>> that is a pretty thoughtless and ignorant statement to make I agree with
>>> Art.
>>
>>Medals are pretty much purely something out of the past. Today, most
>soldiers
>>compare them to the gold and silver stars they got in grade school. The
>Armies
>>penchant for giving out unit awards, or block allocations, pretty much
>dilutes
>>any benefit. I.e., "we can't decide who to give the medal to, so, heck, we
>are
>>going to give the whole unit a medal! You've all done an outstanding job,
>and
>>oh! the Commander would like a higher body count, thank you."
>>
>Are you trolling or are you really that ignorant?
>
>Al Minyard
>

He is really that ignorant. Sounds like a jealous wanabee who never was and
never will be. We have a few of them around here never to be confused with
dedicated soldiers.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Mike Marron]

(ArtKramr) wrote:
>>Mike Marron wrote:

>>I should know what? That you aren't a Cowardly Lion?

>Unlke you I have nothing to apologise for and nothing to explain.

The only thing I have to explain to you is that courage is kinda' like
humility -- if you say you got it, ya' DON'T.

-Mike (continue telling us about your courage, if you wish...) Marron

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>From: Mike Marron
>Date: 8/31/03 4:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote:
>>>Mike Marron wrote:
>
>>>I should know what? That you aren't a Cowardly Lion?
>
>>Unlke you I have nothing to apologise for and nothing to explain.
>
>The only thing I have to explain to you is that courage is kinda' like
>humility -- if you say you got it, ya' DON'T.
>


How do you know?

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>ubject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 8/31/03 4:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Yeah. Like in the nose of a bomber over Germany protected by 1/4 inch of
>>Plexiglas.
>>
>
>I saw that one comin' a mile away....
>
>
>BUFDRVR
>


Wanna trade places?

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Mike Marron]

>Art Kramer wrote:
>>Mike Marron wrote:

>>I should know what? That you aren't a Cowardly Lion?

>Unlke you I have nothing to apologise for and nothing to explain.

>>The only thing I have to explain to you is that courage is kinda' like
>>humility -- if you say you got it, ya' DON'T.

>How do you know?

Unlike you I have nothing to apologise for and nothing to explain.

-Mike (I can play that game too) Marron

[Joey Bishop]

"Mike Marron" wrote
>
> The only thing I have to explain to you is that courage is kinda' like
> humility -- if you say you got it, ya' DON'T.

Cute saying--Dear Abbey?

My son came home complaining about a bully in school. I told him
he'd have to fight him or solve the problem. "How do I solve the
problem?" He asked. Easy, give the drug dealer on the corner some
bad info, like how the bully is selling drugs on his turf. Poof--He was
dead within the week, and the problem went away. Chicago is now
a better place.

Now that's how to handle courage. The silent types are what
will kill you, not the breast beaters.

JB

[B2431]

>My son came home complaining about a bully in school. I told him
>he'd have to fight him or solve the problem. "How do I solve the
>problem?" He asked. Easy, give the drug dealer on the corner some
>bad info, like how the bully is selling drugs on his turf. Poof--He was
>dead within the week, and the problem went away. Chicago is now
>a better place.
>
>Now that's how to handle courage. The silent types are what
>will kill you, not the breast beaters.
>
>JB
>
Amazing, you have just confessed to a felony.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[ArtKramr]

>ubject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>From: (B2431)
>Date: 8/31/03 6:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>My son came home complaining about a bully in school. I told him
>>he'd have to fight him or solve the problem. "How do I solve the
>>problem?" He asked. Easy, give the drug dealer on the corner some
>>bad info, like how the bully is selling drugs on his turf. Poof--He was
>>dead within the week, and the problem went away. Chicago is now
>>a better place.
>>
>>Now that's how to handle courage. The silent types are what
>>will kill you, not the breast beaters.
>>
>>JB
>>
>Amazing, you have just confessed to a felony.
>
>Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired


But he is too dumb to know it.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Joey Bishop]

"B2431" > wrote
>
> Amazing, you have just confessed to a felony.

Talking to drug dealers is a felony now?

[Mike Marron]

>"Joey Bishop" > wrote:
>>"Mike Marron" wrote

>>The only thing I have to explain to you is that courage is kinda' like
>>humility -- if you say you got it, ya' DON'T.

>Cute saying--Dear Abbey?

Nope. It just popped into my head while fending off Kramer's
uncalled-for barbs and arrows.

>My son came home complaining about a bully in school. I told him
>he'd have to fight him or solve the problem. "How do I solve the
>problem?" He asked. Easy, give the drug dealer on the corner some
>bad info, like how the bully is selling drugs on his turf. Poof--He was
>dead within the week, and the problem went away. Chicago is now
>a better place.

Lovely neighborhood you live in there, huh? ;)

>Now that's how to handle courage. The silent types are what
>will kill you, not the breast beaters.

For the most part, agreed, but if the combat veterans remained silent
there would be no reason for this NG to exist. We don't want to
discourage discussion here but it's kinda' tough having any type of
meaningful dialogue with someone like Kramer or Tarver who tend
to respond with unnecessary and completely uncalled-for one-liner
insults and baseless accusations rather than constructive feedback.
We all bring our own expectations to this group as to how we think
the discourse should proceed on RAM. However, this is NOT
rec.aviation.VFW or rec.aviation.flame and it's important to remember
that both combatants and non-combatants alike must be courageous
and willing to sacrifice a bit...especially since 9/11.

-Mike Marron

[BUFDRVR]

>Wanna trade places?

Nope, enjoy being a pilot, although the radar nav (bombardier) job is what it's
all about.

If you're asking me if I want to be a B-26 pilot circa 1943 in Europe , sure,
that's where the "action" was.

If you're asking me to choose between being a B-52 pilot circa 1999 or a B-26
pilot circa 1943, its really an unfair question. I know how much I enjoy
piloting a B-52H circa 1999, but I can only speculate about the B-26 and the
feeling of accomplishment of each sortie in 1943.

So...bottom line, we can't really trade. So what's your point?


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 8/31/03 7:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Wanna trade places?
>
>Nope, enjoy being a pilot, although the radar nav (bombardier) job is what
>it's
>all about.
>
>If you're asking me if I want to be a B-26 pilot circa 1943 in Europe , sure,
>that's where the "action" was.
>
>If you're asking me to choose between being a B-52 pilot circa 1999 or a B-26
>pilot circa 1943, its really an unfair question. I know how much I enjoy
>piloting a B-52H circa 1999, but I can only speculate about the B-26 and the
>feeling of accomplishment of each sortie in 1943.
>
>So...bottom line, we can't really trade. So what's your point?
>
>
>BUFDRVR


You answered my question quite clearly.
We would have welcomed you back then. We could never have too many good pilots
to fly tight, steady, accurate formation for good bomb patterns. I would assume
your B-52 time would make you well qualified to fly Norden runs. Besides B-26
pilots are well protected by steel armor. It was just the bombardiers that had
only Plexi for protection. One more question, You wouldn't have wanted to be a
Bombardier back then would you?.
(grin).

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[JSH517]

It was written;

>> I'm convinced that nuclear weapons are going to have to be used within
>> the next few years (China vs Formosa, Korea, and Iran).

Not saying you're wrong, but sure hope you are!

>I doubt it'll be anyone in a silo; lobbing an ICBM would be a surefire way
>to cause the Russians to have kittens

Kittens my eye,, they'd be giving birtth to full grown texas longhorns,
complete with horns!!

>It will be someone on an SSBN or B2.

Doubt it would be an SSBN, more likely an SSN. B2 is possible but could even
be old BUFFDRVR with a load of ALCM's. But like anyone here with one living
brain cell, I hope it never comes to that.

Jim
SAC Cop
78-88

[B2431]

>
>"B2431" > wrote
>>
>> Amazing, you have just confessed to a felony.
>
>Talking to drug dealers is a felony now?

No, but setting someone up for a murder is.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired


>My son came home complaining about a bully in school. I told him
>he'd have to fight him or solve the problem. "How do I solve the
>problem?" He asked. Easy, give the drug dealer on the corner some
>bad info, like how the bully is selling drugs on his turf. Poof--He was
>dead within the week, and the problem went away. Chicago is now
>a better place.
>
>Now that's how to handle courage. The silent types are what
>will kill you, not the breast beaters.
>
>JB
>
Amazing, you have just confessed to a felony.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[buf3]

(ArtKramr) wrote in message >...
> >Subject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
> >From: "=> Vox Populi ©" Vox Populi ©" >
>
> Only meaningless junk to those who have none.
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

================
Back in the early days of B-52 ARC Lite missions over Nam it took 25
missions to get an Air Medal. I had a Radar Navigator friend who was
on the Wing Bomb/Nav staff. He only had 24 missions so he volunteered
to sub for a sick RN to get his 25th mission and an air medal. The
Buff he was flying on developed some problems and the crew eventually
ejected over the Pacific. His upper torso skeleton with his dog tags
still attached washed up on the beach at the island of Yap some time
later. I have often wondered if he was awarded his Air Medal
posthumously.

Gene Myers
Old Buff driver

[Phineas Pinkham]

"ArtKramr" < wrote in message One more question, You wouldn't have wanted
to be a
> Bombardier back then would you?.
> (grin).
>
> Arthur Kramer

It is our understanding that "nobody" WANTED to be a bombardier.
They were dragooned from the pilot wannabes who tested low at the
Classification Center or washed out of Pilot Training.
Isn't that what you posted previously?
It was either that or the dreaded Infantry?

[Mike Marron]

>"Phineas Pinkham" > wrote:
>>"ArtKramr" wrote:

>>One more question, You wouldn't have wanted to be a
>>Bombardier back then would you?.
>>(grin).

>It is our understanding that "nobody" WANTED to be a bombardier.
>They were dragooned from the pilot wannabes who tested low at the
>Classification Center or washed out of Pilot Training.
>Isn't that what you posted previously?
>It was either that or the dreaded Infantry?

Ahh, the old penis envy syndrome. No wonder Kramer hates pilots
and is such a miserable, bitter, angry old egomaniac with an
inferiority complex and why he trots out "wannabee" every whipstitch
while berating anyone or everyone who "wasn't there" like him --
demoralized and demeaned while unceremoniously stuck in the
nose of a B-26 like a fish in a bowl. After all these years...you'd
think he would've gotten over it by now!

-Mike (the poor guy needs help) Marron

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>From: "Phineas Pinkham"
>Date: 9/1/03 6:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" < wrote in message One more question, You wouldn't have wanted
>to be a
>> Bombardier back then would you?.
>> (grin).
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>
>It is our understanding that "nobody" WANTED to be a bombardier.
>They were dragooned from the pilot wannabes who tested low at the
>Classification Center or washed out of Pilot Training.
>Isn't that what you posted previously?
>It was either that or the dreaded Infantry?
>
>

Total bull**** you horses ass. I never went to pilot training or washed out of
anything..you lying piece of crap.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Ed Rasimus]

(ArtKramr) wrote:

>Sad story. I hope he got his well deserved Air Medal. We only needed 5 missions
>for an Air Medal. We had one guy shot down on his 5th mission but he got his
>AM. I wonder what the rational was for 25 missions in B-52's? Buff driver can
>you clarify?
>Arthur Kramer

It wasn't prejudice against B-52s. It was a simple reflection of
threat levels. In SEA, the criteria was 10 mission over North Vietnam,
20 missions "in-country" (South VN, Laos, Cambodia) and 25
"combat-support" missions--typically in-country air-lift, but also
country transit missions like Arc Light.

If you check the combat losses for B-52s, they were very low-threat
until Linebacker. The only combat losses experienced for most of the
Arc Light campaigns were mid-airs between B-52s (arguably a result of
poor judgement).

The heavies really earned their Air Medals when Linebacker II started,
and then got credit for one AM for every ten sorties. They also earned
a lot of DFC's and Silver Stars during those eleven days of Christmas.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>From: Ed Rasimus
>Date: 9/1/03 8:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>Sad story. I hope he got his well deserved Air Medal. We only needed 5
>missions
>>for an Air Medal. We had one guy shot down on his 5th mission but he got his
>>AM. I wonder what the rational was for 25 missions in B-52's? Buff driver
>can
>>you clarify?
>>Arthur Kramer
>
>It wasn't prejudice against B-52s. It was a simple reflection of
>threat levels. In SEA, the criteria was 10 mission over North Vietnam,
>20 missions "in-country" (South VN, Laos, Cambodia) and 25
>"combat-support" missions--typically in-country air-lift, but also
>country transit missions like Arc Light.
>
>If you check the combat losses for B-52s, they were very low-threat
>until Linebacker. The only combat losses experienced for most of the
>Arc Light campaigns were mid-airs between B-52s (arguably a result of
>poor judgement).
>
>The heavies really earned their Air Medals when Linebacker II started,
>and then got credit for one AM for every ten sorties. They also earned
>a lot of DFC's and Silver Stars during those eleven days of Christmas.
>
>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (ret)
> ***"When Thunder Rolled:
> *** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
> *** from Smithsonian Books
> ISBN: 1588341038


Thanks Ed that clarifies it. Threat level was the determining factor. Makes
some sense now. When I first heard 25 missions for one Air Medal it boggled the
mind. BTW, how many missions for an Air Medal in fighters? I figure you should
have 20 Air Medals by wars end.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>ubject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>From: "=> Vox Populi ©" Vox Populi ©" >
>Date: 9/1/03 9:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>jaybeatty wrote:
>> "Colin Fisher" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> (Douglas Berry) wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 12:28:32 GMT,
>>> several witnesses claim to have seen
>>> "John Smith" >
>>> scrawl a message on the wall:
>>
>>>> Jessica should get a purple heart, pow
>>>> medal, and sent to a combat driving
>>>> course on how to flee like a coward
>>>> without crashing.
>>
>>> She wasn't driving. Based on my time as
>>> a PFC, I'm willing to bet she was sound
>>> asleep.
>>
>>> Based on the report released on how she was captured, I highly doubt
>>> that because it was a Sunday morning and there was gunfire and RPG
>>> rockets in the area. From what I understand, her best freind, the
>>> only female solider to die (I know the name but don't know how to
>>> properly spell it) was the one driving and she hit a turned over
>>> truck.
>>
>>> Then again, I'd like to see how "John Smith" would be able to handle
>>> a vehicle in a similar situation.
>>
>> John Smith it seems really knows nothing of combat, based on what
>> he said about his time as a PFC I'm guessing that he was a dirt bag
>> that had a hard time doing the right thing.
>
>Gee, and we though ALL U$ Soldiers were honorable "heroes" ....
>
>What next Jay, no Santa Claus ...?
>
>--
>"We should not march into Baghdad. To occupy Iraq would
>instantly shatter our coalition, turning the whole Arab
>world against us and make a broken tyrant into a latter-
>day Arab hero. Assigning young soldiers to a fruitless
>hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning
>them to fight in what would be an unwinable urban guerilla
>war, it could only plunge that part of the world into ever
>greater instability."
>-George H. W. Bush Sr. 1998
>
>
>
>--
Best post of the month.
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Phineas Pinkham]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message


> >"ArtKramr" < wrote in message

One more question, You wouldn't have wanted
> >to be a
> >> Bombardier back then would you?.
> >> (grin).
> >>
> >> Arthur Kramer
> >
> >It is our understanding that "nobody" WANTED to be a bombardier.
> >They were dragooned from the pilot wannabes who tested low at the
> >Classification Center or washed out of Pilot Training.
> >Isn't that what you posted previously?
> >It was either that or the dreaded Infantry?
> >
> >
>
> Total bull**** you horses ass. I never went to pilot training or washed
out of
> anything..you lying piece of crap.
>
> Arthur Kramer

No one said YOU did, old chap! Went to Pilot Training or washed out, that
is.
We just remember you saying that the ones who couldn't attain high enough
Test Scores at the Classification Centre to be sent to Pilot Training were
sent to Bombardier Training or the Infantry! Believe you said San Antonio or
Santa Ana were the Class. Centres, know there ws one at Nashville, also.
Does your response mean you enlisted as an Aviation Cadet for the express
purpose of becoming a Bomb Aimer?

[Billy Beck]

(BUFDRVR) wrote:

>>Wanna trade places?
>
>Nope, enjoy being a pilot, although the radar nav (bombardier) job is what it's
>all about.
>
>If you're asking me if I want to be a B-26 pilot circa 1943 in Europe , sure,
>that's where the "action" was.
>
>If you're asking me to choose between being a B-52 pilot circa 1999 or a B-26
>pilot circa 1943, its really an unfair question. I know how much I enjoy
>piloting a B-52H circa 1999, but I can only speculate about the B-26 and the
>feeling of accomplishment of each sortie in 1943.
>
>So...bottom line, we can't really trade. So what's your point?

The bottom line is that you're a punk because Art says so.

<shrug> Face it, B. There's no way you can measure up.


Billy

http://www.two--four.net/weblog.php

[Phineas Pinkham]

"Mike Marron" < wrote in message ...
> >"Phineas Pinkham" > wrote:
> >>"ArtKramr" wrote:
>
> >>One more question, You wouldn't have wanted to be a
> >>Bombardier back then would you?.
> >>(grin).
>
> >It is our understanding that "nobody" WANTED to be a bombardier.
> >They were dragooned from the pilot wannabes who tested low at the
> >Classification Center or washed out of Pilot Training.
> >Isn't that what you posted previously?
> >It was either that or the dreaded Infantry?
>
> Ahh, the old penis envy syndrome. No wonder Kramer hates pilots
> and is such a miserable, bitter, angry old egomaniac with an
> inferiority complex and why he trots out "wannabee" every whipstitch
> while berating anyone or everyone who "wasn't there" like him --


Go easy, Mike. If you had his haemorrhoids you would be hard to live with
also. he must be spending too much time at the Slot Machines, thise stools
are very uncomfortable.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>From: "Phineas Pinkham"
>Date: 9/1/03 11:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>
>
>> >"ArtKramr" < wrote in message
>
>One more question, You wouldn't have wanted
>> >to be a
>> >> Bombardier back then would you?.
>> >> (grin).
>> >>
>> >> Arthur Kramer
>> >
>> >It is our understanding that "nobody" WANTED to be a bombardier.
>> >They were dragooned from the pilot wannabes who tested low at the
>> >Classification Center or washed out of Pilot Training.
>> >Isn't that what you posted previously?
>> >It was either that or the dreaded Infantry?
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Total bull**** you horses ass. I never went to pilot training or washed
>out of
>> anything..you lying piece of crap.
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>
>No one said YOU did, old chap! Went to Pilot Training or washed out, that
>is.
>We just remember you saying that the ones who couldn't attain high enough
>Test Scores at the Classification Centre to be sent to Pilot Training were
>sent to Bombardier Training or the Infantry! Believe you said San Antonio or
>Santa Ana were the Class. Centres, know there ws one at Nashville, also.
>Does your response mean you enlisted as an Aviation Cadet for the express
>purpose of becoming a Bomb Aimer?
>
>
>
I went in to serve my country. How about you? And the school was Big Springs.
You know zero about anything.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Billy Beck]

(ArtKramr) wrote:

>>From: ">Billy Beck <>

(BUFDRVR) wrote:
>>
>>>>Wanna trade places?
>>>
>>>Nope, enjoy being a pilot, although the radar nav (bombardier) job is what
>>it's all about.
>>>
>>>If you're asking me if I want to be a B-26 pilot circa 1943 in Europe ,
>>>sure, that's where the "action" was.
>>>
>>>If you're asking me to choose between being a B-52 pilot circa 1999 or a
>>>B-26 pilot circa 1943, its really an unfair question. I know how much I enjoy
>>>piloting a B-52H circa 1999, but I can only speculate about the B-26 and the
>>>feeling of accomplishment of each sortie in 1943.
>>>
>>>So...bottom line, we can't really trade. So what's your point?
>>
>> The bottom line is that you're a punk because Art says so.
>>
>> <shrug> Face it, B. There's no way you can measure up.

>I never said he was a punk. I said you were a punk. Now prove otherwise,

The difference between a skeptic and a cynic is that while the
former is not convinced, the latter *will not be* convinced. It's a
form of bigotry: the particularly depraved condition of a person who
will not think.

And I know what you are, Art. You're just rotten, now.


Billy

http://www.two--four.net/weblog.php

[Mike Marron]

>"Phineas Pinkham" > wrote:

> Go easy, Mike. If you had his haemorrhoids you would be hard to live with
>also. he must be spending too much time at the Slot Machines, thise stools
>are very uncomfortable.

Kramer's definition of "true love" is when he wakes up in the morning
with a hickey on his hemorrhoids.

-Mike Marron

[Phineas Pinkham]

"ArtKramr" <wrote in message

> >From: "Phineas Pinkham"

>> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> >
> >
> >> >"ArtKramr" < wrote in message
> >
> >One more question, You wouldn't have wanted
> >> >to be a
> >> >> Bombardier back then would you?.
> >> >> (grin).
> >> >>
> >> >> Arthur Kramer
> >> >
> >> >It is our understanding that "nobody" WANTED to be a bombardier.
> >> >They were dragooned from the pilot wannabes who tested low at the
> >> >Classification Center or washed out of Pilot Training.
> >> >Isn't that what you posted previously?
> >> >It was either that or the dreaded Infantry?
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> Total bull**** you horses ass. I never went to pilot training or washed
> >out of
> >> anything..you lying piece of crap.
> >>
> >> Arthur Kramer
> >
> >No one said YOU did, old chap! Went to Pilot Training or washed out, that
> >is.
> >We just remember you saying that the ones who couldn't attain high enough
> >Test Scores at the Classification Centre to be sent to Pilot Training
were
> >sent to Bombardier Training or the Infantry! Believe you said San Antonio
or
> >Santa Ana were the Class. Centres, know there ws one at Nashville, also.
> >Does your response mean you enlisted as an Aviation Cadet for the express
> >purpose of becoming a Bomb Aimer?
> >
> >
> >
> I went in to serve my country. How about you? And the school was Big
Springs.
> You know zero about anything.

Always avoid answering the question is your m.o.
Not talking about a School, numb nuts, we were talking about a
Classification Centre.
Served 24 years active duty, old boy that suffice to ask a question of the
old foul mouth?

[Phineas Pinkham]

"Mike Marron" <> wrote in message
> >Art Kramer spewed:
> >>Billy Beck wrote:
>
> >>The bottom line is that you're a punk because Art says so.
>

>
> >I never said he was a punk. I said you were a punk. Now prove otherwise,
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Yet another fine example of Kramer's magnificent "courage"...
>
>
How does he get access to a PC in an Alzheimer's Nursing Facility?

[Ed Rasimus]

(ArtKramr) wrote:

>>Subject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>>From: Ed Rasimus
>>
>>It wasn't prejudice against B-52s. It was a simple reflection of
>>threat levels. In SEA, the criteria was 10 mission over North Vietnam,
>>20 missions "in-country" (South VN, Laos, Cambodia) and 25
>>"combat-support" missions--typically in-country air-lift, but also
>>country transit missions like Arc Light.
>>
>>If you check the combat losses for B-52s, they were very low-threat
>>until Linebacker. The only combat losses experienced for most of the
>>Arc Light campaigns were mid-airs between B-52s (arguably a result of
>>poor judgement).
>>
>>The heavies really earned their Air Medals when Linebacker II started,
>>and then got credit for one AM for every ten sorties. They also earned
>>a lot of DFC's and Silver Stars during those eleven days of Christmas.
>>
>>
>> Ed Rasimus
>
>Thanks Ed that clarifies it. Threat level was the determining factor. Makes
>some sense now. When I first heard 25 missions for one Air Medal it boggled the
>mind. BTW, how many missions for an Air Medal in fighters? I figure you should
>have 20 Air Medals by wars end.
>
>Arthur Kramer

The criteria didn't vary by type. A fighter or a bomber got the same
credit. If it was an NVN mission it took 10, if "in-country" it took
20.

You figure correctly. I got 15 for 150 NVN and 5 for 100 in-country.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>From: Ed Rasimus
>Date: 9/1/03 3:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>>Subject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>>>From: Ed Rasimus
>>>
>>>It wasn't prejudice against B-52s. It was a simple reflection of
>>>threat levels. In SEA, the criteria was 10 mission over North Vietnam,
>>>20 missions "in-country" (South VN, Laos, Cambodia) and 25
>>>"combat-support" missions--typically in-country air-lift, but also
>>>country transit missions like Arc Light.
>>>
>>>If you check the combat losses for B-52s, they were very low-threat
>>>until Linebacker. The only combat losses experienced for most of the
>>>Arc Light campaigns were mid-airs between B-52s (arguably a result of
>>>poor judgement).
>>>
>>>The heavies really earned their Air Medals when Linebacker II started,
>>>and then got credit for one AM for every ten sorties. They also earned
>>>a lot of DFC's and Silver Stars during those eleven days of Christmas.
>>>
>>>
>>> Ed Rasimus
>>
>>Thanks Ed that clarifies it. Threat level was the determining factor. Makes
>>some sense now. When I first heard 25 missions for one Air Medal it boggled
>the
>>mind. BTW, how many missions for an Air Medal in fighters? I figure you
>should
>>have 20 Air Medals by wars end.
>>
>>Arthur Kramer
>
>The criteria didn't vary by type. A fighter or a bomber got the same
>credit. If it was an NVN mission it took 10, if "in-country" it took
>20.
>
>You figure correctly. I got 15 for 150 NVN and 5 for 100 in-country.
>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (ret)
> ***"When Thunder Rolled:
> *** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
> *** from Smithsonian Books
> ISBN: 1588341038


I think you got short changed. You flew 150 and got 20. I flew 50 and got 10. I
figure you deserved 30. (sheesh)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>From: "Phineas Pinkham"
>Date: 9/1/03 3:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time

>Not talking about a School, numb nuts, we were talking about a
>Classification Centre.
>Served 24 years active duty, old boy that suffice to ask a question of the
>old foul mouth?
>
>

Then how come you know zero about anything? I guess your active duty wasn't
all that active.
..
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[BUFDRVR]

>You wouldn't have wanted to be a
>Bombardier back then would you?.
>(grin).

As my first choice? No, but if not chosen to fly, it seems like the next best
thing. Even today my second choice of jobs would be as B-52 radar Nav. In fact,
I've been known to go down stairs quite often and do simulated weapons
releases. Its a lot of fun.....but not nearly as much as piloting.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Phineas Pinkham]

"ArtKramr" <wrote in message > >
> >From: "Phineas Pinkham"



>
> >Not talking about a School, numb nuts, we were talking about a
> >Classification Centre.
> >Served 24 years active duty, old boy that suffice to ask a question of
the
> >old foul mouth?
> >
> >
>
> Then how come you know zero about anything? I guess your active duty
wasn't
> all that active.
> .
It is time to change your Depends, like your mouth and head they are
leaking detritus.

[BUFDRVR]

>I wonder what the rational was for 25 missions in B-52's? Buff driver can
>you clarify?

Its not platform specific, but theater and MAJCOM specific. Ten sorties for an
AM seems to be the norm in most conflicts, but CENTCOM used a "point system"
for Operation SOUTHERN WATCH where I believe you would have had to fly 15
sorties for an AM. My guess for Vietnam was that PACOM (or perhaps since B-52s
were never "chopped" to PACOM, it was SAC's rule) decided that Rolling Thunder,
Freedom Porch and other air operations south of 20 latitude needed 25 sorties
for an AM due to the relatively low risk. I don't know...Ed?


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>From: "Phineas Pinkham"
>Date: 9/1/03 3:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" <wrote in message > >
>> >From: "Phineas Pinkham"
>
>
>
>>
>> >Not talking about a School, numb nuts, we were talking about a
>> >Classification Centre.
>> >Served 24 years active duty, old boy that suffice to ask a question of
>the
>> >old foul mouth?
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Then how come you know zero about anything? I guess your active duty
>wasn't
>> all that active.
>> .
>It is time to change your Depends, like your mouth and head they are
>leaking detritus.
>
>

Classy. Very classy.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[BUFDRVR]

>The only combat losses experienced for most of the
>Arc Light campaigns were mid-airs between B-52s (arguably a result of
>poor judgement).

A little unfair Ed. SAC crews were trained day in and day out on single ship
nuclear ops, then thrown into three ship cells over the Pacific enroute to
Vietnam doing A/R with up to 6 tankers. Much of what they experienced are now
NOTES, CAUTIONS and WARNINGS in B-52 Air Refueling T.O.s. For what its worth,
there were 12 B-52s lost prior to 1972. Out of those 12, four were lost in two
seperate mid-airs, each mid-air happening in or around the Pac Air Refueling
Tracks. Nearly as many (3) were lost to Lightning strikes.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 9/1/03 3:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>I wonder what the rational was for 25 missions in B-52's? Buff driver can
>>you clarify?
>
>Its not platform specific, but theater and MAJCOM specific. Ten sorties for
>an
>AM seems to be the norm in most conflicts, but CENTCOM used a "point system"
>for Operation SOUTHERN WATCH where I believe you would have had to fly 15
>sorties for an AM. My guess for Vietnam was that PACOM (or perhaps since
>B-52s
>were never "chopped" to PACOM, it was SAC's rule) decided that Rolling
>Thunder,
>Freedom Porch and other air operations south of 20 latitude needed 25 sorties
>for an AM due to the relatively low risk. I don't know...Ed?
>
>
>BUFDRVR
>
>"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
>harelips
>everyone on Bear Creek"


I wonder how they arrived at those numbers. If we needed 5 for an AM and you
needed 25 does this mean you had 1/5 the losses per sortie relative to the ETO?
Interesting to know how they would have figured it out.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Ed Rasimus]

(BUFDRVR) wrote:

>>The only combat losses experienced for most of the
>>Arc Light campaigns were mid-airs between B-52s (arguably a result of
>>poor judgement).
>
>A little unfair Ed. SAC crews were trained day in and day out on single ship
>nuclear ops, then thrown into three ship cells over the Pacific enroute to
>Vietnam doing A/R with up to 6 tankers. Much of what they experienced are now
>NOTES, CAUTIONS and WARNINGS in B-52 Air Refueling T.O.s. For what its worth,
>there were 12 B-52s lost prior to 1972. Out of those 12, four were lost in two
>seperate mid-airs, each mid-air happening in or around the Pac Air Refueling
>Tracks. Nearly as many (3) were lost to Lightning strikes.
>
Wasn't trying to be unfair. I've got great respect for the guys who
did the job they were assigned and even greater respect for the ones
who happened to get the call on December 18, 1972.

But, the fact of the matter is that there were no B-52s lost to enemy
action until Linebacker. Long missions, max loads, bad weather, lots
of tanking, all are hazardous in and of themselves.

I hope you'll agree that the guy who did the 180 back into his own
cell in weather probably wasn't using the best of situational
awareness.

We always laughed, in the fighter wings in Thailand that were going
North, that the little birds were doing the strategic mission while
the BUFFs were going tactical in-country. Strange war....


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038

[Phineas Pinkham]

"ArtKramr" <wrote in message
> >From: "Phineas Pinkham"
>
> >"ArtKramr" <wrote in message > >
> >> >From: "Phineas Pinkham"
> >> >Not talking about a School, numb nuts, we were talking about a
> >> >Classification Centre.
> >> >Served 24 years active duty, old boy that suffice to ask a question of
> >the
> >> >old foul mouth?
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> Then how come you know zero about anything? I guess your active duty
> >wasn't
> >> all that active.
> >> .
> >It is time to change your Depends, like your mouth and head they are
> >leaking detritus.
> >
> >
>
> Classy. Very classy.
>
> Arthur Kramer

We all agree on that.

It is such a refreshing departure from your usual reverting to 4 letter
obscenities that only relect upon your limited vocabulary and education.

[[email protected]]

(ArtKramr) wrote:

>
>You did what you were trained to do. And did it extremely well. It is what the
>military is all about. Wear your decorations with pride. They were well earned.
>
>Arthur Kramer

Concur. Good yarn Gordon...
--

-Gord.

[Gordon]

>. Good yarn...

thanks, bud. Now for one of yours...? Reading flying anecdotes is why I am
here and I wish that all the participants that flew would do the same thing I
did - post the memories you've got, so I can start confusing them with my own.
:)

v/r
Gordon

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>From: (Gordon)
>Date: 9/1/03 7:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>. Good yarn...
>
>thanks, bud. Now for one of yours...? Reading flying anecdotes is why I am
>here and I wish that all the participants that flew would do the same thing I
>did - post the memories you've got, so I can start confusing them with my
>own.
>:)
>
>v/r
>Gordon


Right. Military flying is what this is all about. Everything else is baby
talk.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Tarver Engineering]

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> >Art Kramer spewed:
> >>Billy Beck wrote:

Beck and Marron sitting in a tree ...

[B2431]

And this sort of childishness helps how?

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired


>From: Mike Marron
>Date: 9/1/2003 3:33 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>"Phineas Pinkham" > wrote:
>
>> Go easy, Mike. If you had his haemorrhoids you would be hard to live with
>>also. he must be spending too much time at the Slot Machines, thise stools
>>are very uncomfortable.
>
>Kramer's definition of "true love" is when he wakes up in the morning
>with a hickey on his hemorrhoids.
>
>-Mike Marron
>

[Tarver Engineering]

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> > (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
> >Right. Military flying is what this is all about. Everything else is
baby
> >talk.
>
> Oops there ya' go again hopping up on your soapbox with your
> bullhorn trying to run the show again!

No really, this is a military aviation newsgroup.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>From: "=> Vox Populi ©" Vox Populi ©" >
>Date: 9/2/03 7:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time

>Well then, that's the point ain't it? Some people don't actually "earn" the
>medals.

And some do with their lives. The vast majority were well earned and well
deserved. In my time in the military I never knew of a single award that was
not earned, often the hard way. And many of these awards now lie on the chests
of those stiill buried in foreign soil.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>From: vincent Brannigan
>Date: 9/2/03 8:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>
>"=> Vox Populi ©" wrote:
>
>> Does getting lost, crashing your vehicle, being taken prisoner without
>firing a
>> shot,
>> spending time in a 1st class medical hospital, and getting "rescued" from
>that
>> unarmed,
>> unguarded hospital deserve a "bronze star" ?
>>
>> Or does that denigrate and lessen the value, perceived or real, of those
>other
>> soldiers
>> throughout many wars who actually did "earn" the BS?
>
>How about the MOH?
>
> 7 December 1941 - *KIDD, ISAAC CAMPBELL, Rear Admiral, U.S. Navy
>
>Citation: For conspicuous devotion to duty, extraordinary courage and
>complete
>disregard of his own life, during the attack on the Fleet in Pearl Harbor, by
>Japanese forces on 7 December 1941. Rear Adm. Kidd immediately went to the
>bridge and, as Commander Battleship Division One, courageously discharged
>his
>duties as Senior Officer Present Afloat until the U.S.S. Arizona, his
>Flagship,
>blew up from magazine explosions and a direct bomb hit on the bridge which
>resulted in the loss of his life.
>
>7 December 1941 - *VAN VALKENBURGH, FRANKLIN, Captain, U.S. Navy
>
> Citation: For conspicuous devotion to duty, extraordinary courage and
>complete
>disregard of his own life, during the attack on the Fleet in Pearl Harbor
>T.H.,
>by Japanese forces on 7 December 1941. As commanding officer of the U.S.S.
>Arizona, Capt. Van Valkenburgh gallantly fought his ship until the U.S.S.
>Arizona blew up from magazine explosions and a direct bomb hit on the bridge
>which
>resulted in the loss of his life.
>
>
>Now these men gave their lives in the service of their country, but it is
>certainly
>difficult to understand what was particularly personally "heroic" about their
>actions. Iprefer to think of it as a award that encapsulated all the hero's
>whose
>courage is not recorded. Perhaps this award falls in the same category.
>
>Vince
>

Thanks for bringing reality into what, up until now, has been one of the more
disgusting threads ever on this NG.

..
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Mike Marron]

(ArtKramr) wrote:

>Thanks for bringing reality into what, up until now, has been one of the more
>disgusting threads ever on this NG.

For which you, Mr. Kramer, should be proud. Congrats!

-Mike (you've definitely earned your "keyboard courage" medal) Marron

[John S. Shinal]

"Joey Bishop" wrote:

> Then there's the 5,000 hours in C-141
>cargo status... Now that's what I *demand* a medal for...
>
>None of which appear on my civilian resume...

"Supernumerary Cargo Personnel - I packed well, was never broken
during shipping, and am compatible with other palletized goods.
Experienced in rushing and then waiting. I can be frozen, crushed,
dropped and inverted without ill effects. Never damaged any other
cargo I was packed with."



----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

[BUFDRVR]

>But, the fact of the matter is that there were no B-52s lost to enemy
>action until Linebacker.

Well...a D model was lost in November during one of the Freedom Porch
operations, not technically a Linebacker sortie, but I get your point. I guess
my problem was I felt you were slighting the aircrews as responsible for the 12
losses prior to 1972.

>I hope you'll agree that the guy who did the 180 back into his own
>cell in weather probably wasn't using the best of situational
>awareness.

Actually, he did a 180 back into the following cell, and was using standard SAC
Nuclear Ops performing an orbit delay at the ARCP while he waited for the late
tanker. Good SA? Hell No! A habit pattern from years of training? Probably. For
what its worth, a WARNING was added to the T.O. specifically stating NOT to do
orbit delays at the ARCP.

>We always laughed, in the fighter wings in Thailand that were going
>North, that the little birds were doing the strategic mission while
>the BUFFs were going tactical in-country.

Called "Coconut Knocking" sorties by the BUFF crews.

>Strange war....

Not so much as you would think. Fast forward 15+ years to DESERT STORM. For a
bulk of that operation B-52Gs pounded Iraqi ground forces and mobilization
areas while F-117s hit Iraqi SOCs and other completely strategic targets. Now
jump forward another dozen years and F-117 and F-15E are hitting strategic
targets in Baghdad while 50% of the B-52 sorties are dedicated to CAS. Vietnam
wasn't strange, it was a glimpse of future air operations.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Ed Rasimus]

(BUFDRVR) wrote:

>>Strange war....
>
>Not so much as you would think. Fast forward 15+ years to DESERT STORM. For a
>bulk of that operation B-52Gs pounded Iraqi ground forces and mobilization
>areas while F-117s hit Iraqi SOCs and other completely strategic targets. Now
>jump forward another dozen years and F-117 and F-15E are hitting strategic
>targets in Baghdad while 50% of the B-52 sorties are dedicated to CAS. Vietnam
>wasn't strange, it was a glimpse of future air operations.
>

I imagine Curt LeMay is doing a relatively high RPM in his grave...


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: U$ Military Medals meaningless junk ...!
>From: "Gene Storey"
>Date: 9/2/03 3:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id:

>don't know about fighters, but the Connie crews could only
>claim one mission a day, whether you flew 1 sortie or 2. Usually
>the mission number would be xxx, then xxx-a, xxx-b, etc, and
>flight records wouldn't count the extra sorties in the decoration

Ah the old Missions vs Sorties raises it's ugly head again.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[BUFDRVR]

>I imagine Curt LeMay is doing a relatively high RPM in his grave...

If you're real quiet you can actually hear him.....


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[av8r]

>
> -Mike (deserves another medal for his keyboard courage) Marron

Hi Mike

Could you please list again all your medals. Thanks!

Cheers...Chris

[Mike Marron]

>av8r > wrote:

>Hi Mike

Hi Chris

>Could you please list again all your medals. Thanks!

4-H runnerup -- reining (greenbroke Appaloosa filly)
Dawes Co. Pork Judging Contest -- 3rd Place
Range Management -- 3rd Place -- Dawes Co. Fair
Western Nebraska All-Star Football Player -- varsity undefeated season
Assorted 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Place H.S. medals -- varsity wrestling
Dave & Roxie's Fly-In 2000 -- 1st Place bomb dropping contest
Dave & Roxies's Fly-In 2001 -- 1st Place bomb dropping contest
Dave & Roxie's Fly-In 2002 -- 1st Place bomb dropping contest
Dave & Roxie's Fly-In 2003 -- persona non grata

>Cheers...Chris

Schmeers

-Mike (your pla,,,) Marron