THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON

[ArtKramr]

The Day the 344th Stopped Patton


Patton treasured the German autobahns. To him they were high speed highways
where he could charge forward at full tilt, covering miles of territory,
sweeping enemy forces in his path. But Patton never took A.A. Robinson into
account. A.A. Robinson, Lt. Robinson was one of the pilots in the 344th Bomb
Group. And a good pilot and a fine fellow he was. But he was on a crash course
with both destiny and a furious Patton. We were on a mission over Germany. We
were heading East and finally crossed the bomb line. Now we were over enemy
held territory and committed to the mission. Robinson was having engine
trouble. He slowly started losing altitude. No choice but to drop out of the
formation and try to make it back to base, or at least one of the many
emergency strips built for the heavies in trouble. Dropping out of formation in
enemy territory is dangerous business. He was alone, no fighter cover and he
was easy pickings for any German fighters looking for a target of opportunity.
He was still losing altitude. So he did what anyone of would have done in his
place. He dumped his bomb load to lighten the plane. The problem was that he
dumped it on an autobahn in the path oif Patton's advance into Germany. And he
just didn't bust up the road, he took out the bridges over deep chasms as well.
He stopped Patton's advance dead Patton now had to do a go around through deep
chasms slowing his advance quite seriously. Of course, for some strange reason
Patton had no intention of being a good sport about this innocent little mishap
on poor AA's part. There was all hell to pay. But the furor finally died down
and Robinson just kept flying missions. But he never salvoed again. AA,
wherever you are today, I hope you are reading this. We can have nothing but
admiration for the man that could do what the Germans could never do, bring
Patton to a halt.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Tarver Engineering]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> The Day the 344th Stopped Patton

<snip>

> He stopped Patton's advance dead Patton now had to do a go around through
deep
> chasms slowing his advance quite seriously. Of course, for some strange
reason
> Patton had no intention of being a good sport about this innocent little
mishap
> on poor AA's part. There was all hell to pay. But the furor finally died
down
> and Robinson just kept flying missions. But he never salvoed again. AA,
> wherever you are today, I hope you are reading this. We can have nothing
but
> admiration for the man that could do what the Germans could never do,
bring
> Patton to a halt.

For 10 days, while the smoke rose over the death camps.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 9/6/03 8:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> The Day the 344th Stopped Patton
>
><snip>
>
>> He stopped Patton's advance dead Patton now had to do a go around through
>deep
>> chasms slowing his advance quite seriously. Of course, for some strange
>reason
>> Patton had no intention of being a good sport about this innocent little
>mishap
>> on poor AA's part. There was all hell to pay. But the furor finally died
>down
>> and Robinson just kept flying missions. But he never salvoed again. AA,
>> wherever you are today, I hope you are reading this. We can have nothing
>but
>> admiration for the man that could do what the Germans could never do,
>bring
>> Patton to a halt.
>
>For 10 days, while the smoke rose over the death camps.
>
>

Two days actually and he was nowhere near the camps. Now tell us what you did
in the great war sniveling coward



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Dave Kearton]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>

>
> For 10 days, while the smoke rose over the death camps.
>
>


Didn't you notice the sign ?


It says ....


"Is your reply really necessary ?"





Regards

Dave Kearton

[Tarver Engineering]

"Dave Kearton" > wrote in message
...
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...

> > For 10 days, while the smoke rose over the death camps.

> Didn't you notice the sign ?

> It says ....

> "Is your reply really necessary ?"

All I see is a man making a disaster out to be a tiny mistake.

Then again, Art also thinks hitting the correct city was a pickle barrel.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 9/6/03 8:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
>> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
>> >Date: 9/6/03 8:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >
>> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> The Day the 344th Stopped Patton
>> >
>> ><snip>
>> >
>> >> He stopped Patton's advance dead Patton now had to do a go around
>through deep
>> >> chasms slowing his advance quite seriously. Of course, for some strange
>reason
>> >> Patton had no intention of being a good sport about this innocent
>little mishap
>> >> on poor AA's part. There was all hell to pay. But the furor finally
>died down
>> >> and Robinson just kept flying missions. But he never salvoed again. AA,
>> >> wherever you are today, I hope you are reading this. We can have
>nothing but
>> >> admiration for the man that could do what the Germans could never do,
>bring
>> >> Patton to a halt.
>> >
>> >For 10 days, while the smoke rose over the death camps.
>
>> Two days actually and he was nowhere near the camps. Now tell us what you
>did
>> in the great war sniveling coward
>
>For ten days actually, you forgot that I know someone who was there.
>
Not good enouigh coward. What did YOU do in the war?


>
>

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Tarver Engineering]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >Date: 9/6/03 8:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
> >> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >> >Date: 9/6/03 8:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> The Day the 344th Stopped Patton
> >> >
> >> ><snip>
> >> >
> >> >> He stopped Patton's advance dead Patton now had to do a go around
through deep
> >> >> chasms slowing his advance quite seriously. Of course, for some
strange reason
> >> >> Patton had no intention of being a good sport about this innocent
little mishap
> >> >> on poor AA's part. There was all hell to pay. But the furor finally
died down
> >> >> and Robinson just kept flying missions. But he never salvoed again.
AA,
> >> >> wherever you are today, I hope you are reading this. We can have
nothing but
> >> >> admiration for the man that could do what the Germans could never
do, bring
> >> >> Patton to a halt.
> >> >
> >> >For 10 days, while the smoke rose over the death camps.
> >
> >> Two days actually and he was nowhere near the camps. Now tell us what
you did
> >> in the great war sniveling coward
> >
> >For ten days actually, you forgot that I know someone who was there.
> >
> Not good enouigh coward. What did YOU do in the war?

How many men on the ground do you suppose it cost to buy that bridge intact,
old man? A few dozen maybe? You dishonor their sacrifice, when you make
out that what was done was no big deal. There is no humor whatsoever, in
what the 344th did that day.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
>From: Mike Marron
>Date: 9/6/03 8:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>Two days actually and he was nowhere near the camps. Now tell
>>us what you did in the great war sniveling coward
>
>Thanks for another great story Art. I don't know what cracked me up
>the most tonight -- your story describing how Lt. Robinson stopped
>Patton in his tracks -- or your response to ol' Tarv above.
>
>-Mike (gotta' love it) Marron
>


We never let Robbie forget it. The needling was endless. One night in the
officers club the phone rang and the guy who answered it said, " It's for you
Robbie. It's Patton".
The crowd roared and Robbie went under a table. But it was like that almost
every night. (grin)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 9/6/03 8:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
>> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
>> >Date: 9/6/03 8:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >
>> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> >Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
>> >> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
>> >> >Date: 9/6/03 8:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>> >> >Message-id: >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> >> The Day the 344th Stopped Patton
>> >> >
>> >> ><snip>
>> >> >
>> >> >> He stopped Patton's advance dead Patton now had to do a go around
>through deep
>> >> >> chasms slowing his advance quite seriously. Of course, for some
>strange reason
>> >> >> Patton had no intention of being a good sport about this innocent
>little mishap
>> >> >> on poor AA's part. There was all hell to pay. But the furor finally
>died down
>> >> >> and Robinson just kept flying missions. But he never salvoed again.
>AA,
>> >> >> wherever you are today, I hope you are reading this. We can have
>nothing but
>> >> >> admiration for the man that could do what the Germans could never
>do, bring
>> >> >> Patton to a halt.
>> >> >
>> >> >For 10 days, while the smoke rose over the death camps.
>> >
>> >> Two days actually and he was nowhere near the camps. Now tell us what
>you did
>> >> in the great war sniveling coward
>> >
>> >For ten days actually, you forgot that I know someone who was there.
>> >
>> Not good enouigh coward. What did YOU do in the war?
>
>How many men on the ground do you suppose it cost to buy that bridge intact,
>old man? A few dozen maybe? You dishonor their sacrifice, when you make
>out that what was done was no big deal. There is no humor whatsoever, in
>what the 344th did that day.
>
>

Not good enough coward,What did you do in the war?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 9/6/03 9:31 PM Pacific

>did YOU do in the war? Robbie flew 55
>missions.
>> How many did you fly?
>
>I see your point Art, those lives were just ordinary lives, not air crew.

He did 55. How many did you fly?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[B2431]

>
>> Two days actually and he was nowhere near the camps. Now tell us what you
>did
>> in the great war sniveling coward
>
>For ten days actually, you forgot that I know someone who was there.
>
>The 344th made a very costly mistake, in lives.
>
>
Tarver, knowing someone who was there doesn't back up your claim. Being there,
as Kramer was, makes his assertion it was 2 days more plausible.

Personally I have no idea when, where etc, but such incidents did happen. There
were innocent people killed when dumping bombs on more than one occassion.
There was a town in France that got tagged that way if memory serves. I don't
recall the specifics.

These things happen, but was the outcome of the war altered? Were any Allies
killed when the bombs were punched?

I won't say your military experience is meaningless, but you can listen to our
war stories all day long and you will never be able to grasp the horror and
fear we felt anymore than I as a male will ever understand the pain of
childbirth. I can tell you what it's like to hunker down in a hole while the
bad guys walked fire over me. Can you feel what I felt? Can you comprehend the
feeling of helplessness I had? Can you feel the rage I built up wanting to get
back at them? Of course not.

How about granting those who were there the benefit of the doubt rather than
arguing for argument's sake?


Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
>From: (B2431)
>Date: 9/7/03 2:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>
>>> Two days actually and he was nowhere near the camps. Now tell us what you
>>did
>>> in the great war sniveling coward
>>
>>For ten days actually, you forgot that I know someone who was there.
>>
>>The 344th made a very costly mistake, in lives.
>>
>>
>Tarver, knowing someone who was there doesn't back up your claim. Being
>there,
>as Kramer was, makes his assertion it was 2 days more plausible.
>
>Personally I have no idea when, where etc, but such incidents did happen.
>There
>were innocent people killed when dumping bombs on more than one occassion.
>There was a town in France that got tagged that way if memory serves. I don't
>recall the specifics.
>
>These things happen, but was the outcome of the war altered? Were any Allies
>killed when the bombs were punched?
>
>I won't say your military experience is meaningless, but you can listen to
>our
>war stories all day long and you will never be able to grasp the horror and
>fear we felt anymore than I as a male will ever understand the pain of
>childbirth. I can tell you what it's like to hunker down in a hole while the
>bad guys walked fire over me. Can you feel what I felt? Can you comprehend
>the
>feeling of helplessness I had? Can you feel the rage I built up wanting to
>get
>back at them? Of course not.
>
>How about granting those who were there the benefit of the doubt rather than
>arguing for argument's sake?
>
>
>Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired


Tarver could have volunteered for combat as his brave father did with the 101st
Airborne, But he never did, Instead he hid in a hanger out of harms way and has
at one time or another attacked every combat veteran on this NG. Probably out
of guilt at his own cowardice and shame at his own jealousy. He is generally
the laughing stock of this NG, as well he should be. And I am sure his father
takes no joy in his cowardly son. But those of us who have seen the elephant
know the truth of battle.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Larry Dighera]

On 07 Sep 2003 03:07:32 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote in
Message-Id: >:

>He dumped his bomb load to lighten the plane.

That's what may have downed Glen Miller's aircraft too.

http://www.grimsociety.com/wayback/decwb.html
December 15th, 1944 - GLENN MILLER: MIA - Big Band Leader Glen
Miller's plane disappeared over the English Channel. In 1988 a retired
RAF engineer admitted he may have jettisoned some leftover bombs on
top of the entertainer's plane while returning home from a bombing
run.


http://www.netlondon.com/news/2000-7/9FB2BC024E536650802.html
--

Irrational beliefs ultimately lead to irrational acts.
-- Larry Dighera,

[[email protected]]

(B2431) wrote:

>
>
>These things happen, but was the outcome of the war altered? Were any Allies
>killed when the bombs were punched?
>
-cut-
>Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

A question occured to me during this discussion of Patton being
stopped because of all the damage caused by a bomb-load being
jettisoned, bridges blown up, roads obliterated etc.

Weren't bombs dropped 'on safe' during jettison?...I know for a
fact that modern bombers can choose whether to arm (or not) their
ordnance, so why did that jettison cause so much damage?...

Mind you, I'm not looking to add fuel to this flame-war but I'm
curious.
--

-Gord.

[Tarver Engineering]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> >
> >> Two days actually and he was nowhere near the camps. Now tell us what
you
> >did
> >> in the great war sniveling coward
> >
> >For ten days actually, you forgot that I know someone who was there.
> >
> >The 344th made a very costly mistake, in lives.
> >
> >
> Tarver, knowing someone who was there doesn't back up your claim. Being
there,
> as Kramer was, makes his assertion it was 2 days more plausible.

Art wasn't there, but my father was.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 9/7/03 9:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"B2431" > wrote in message
...
>> >
>> >> Two days actually and he was nowhere near the camps. Now tell us what
>you
>> >did
>> >> in the great war sniveling coward
>> >
>> >For ten days actually, you forgot that I know someone who was there.
>> >
>> >The 344th made a very costly mistake, in lives.
>> >
>> >
>> Tarver, knowing someone who was there doesn't back up your claim. Being
>there,
>> as Kramer was, makes his assertion it was 2 days more plausible.
>
>Art wasn't there, but my father was.
>
>
Your father flew with the 344th, What a liar.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
>From: Dave Holford
>Date: 9/7/03 7:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>
>ArtKramr wrote:
>>
>>
>> >did YOU do in the war? Robbie flew 55
>> >missions.
>> >> How many did you fly?
>> >
>> >I see your point Art, those lives were just ordinary lives, not air crew.
>>
>> He did 55. How many did you fly?
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>
>
>I find it reprehensible that Art can dismiss the efforts and lives of
>men who spent more weeks in combat than he did hours, just because they
>did not wear wings, with thoughtless smart-arse comments.

You are buying Tarver's lies hook line and sinker. Idiot
>
>No one doubts that his time in combat was stressful and terrifying, and
>may even have had some impact on the outcome of the European war; but he
>did get to eat decent meals, at a table in comfort, and to sleep in a
>safe bed every night.

Not just me,Me and a million other guys. How about you?
>
>His recollections of history are interesting contributions, but his
>off-hand dismissal of everyone who was not in air combat is becoming
>tiresome.

I am waiting for you to tell more interesting combat experiences. Start now.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Tarver Engineering]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >Date: 9/7/03 9:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"B2431" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >
> >> >> Two days actually and he was nowhere near the camps. Now tell us
what
> >you
> >> >did
> >> >> in the great war sniveling coward
> >> >
> >> >For ten days actually, you forgot that I know someone who was there.
> >> >
> >> >The 344th made a very costly mistake, in lives.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> Tarver, knowing someone who was there doesn't back up your claim. Being
> >there,
> >> as Kramer was, makes his assertion it was 2 days more plausible.
> >
> >Art wasn't there, but my father was.
> >
> >
> Your father flew with the 344th, What a liar.

My father was on the ground waiting 10 days.

Your buddy Robbie did more damage to the war effort in his childishness that
his 55 missions did to help. It would have been better if Robbie had stayed
home.

[Tarver Engineering]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
> >From: Dave Holford

<snip>
> >His recollections of history are interesting contributions, but his
> >off-hand dismissal of everyone who was not in air combat is becoming
> >tiresome.
>
> I am waiting for you to tell more interesting combat experiences. Start
now.

I agree, let's change the subject.

Art, don't post your stopping Patton story anymore. It is dusturbing, not
funny, or entertaining.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 9/7/03 10:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time

>Your buddy Robbie did more damage to the war effort in his childishness that
>his 55 missions did to help. It would have been better if Robbie had stayed
>home.

You are babbling about things you know nothing about. Your judgement about
combat has zero credibility since you were never there.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Tarver Engineering]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >Date: 9/7/03 10:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>
> >Your buddy Robbie did more damage to the war effort in his childishness
that
> >his 55 missions did to help. It would have been better if Robbie had
stayed
> >home.
>
> You are babbling about things you know nothing about. Your judgement about
> combat has zero credibility since you were never there.

Stopping Patton was a bad thing.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 9/7/03 10:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
>> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
>> >Date: 9/7/03 10:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>>
>> >Your buddy Robbie did more damage to the war effort in his childishness
>that
>> >his 55 missions did to help. It would have been better if Robbie had
>stayed
>> >home.
>>
>> You are babbling about things you know nothing about. Your judgement about
>> combat has zero credibility since you were never there.
>
>Stopping Patton was a bad thing.
>
>
..Nothing stopped Patton imbecile. Have you no sense of history you fool.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[[email protected]]

(ArtKramr) wrote:

>>A question occured to me during this discussion of Patton being
>>stopped because of all the damage caused by a bomb-load being
>>jettisoned, bridges blown up, roads obliterated etc.
>>
>>Weren't bombs dropped 'on safe' during jettison?...I know for a
>>fact that modern bombers can choose whether to arm (or not) their
>>ordnance, so why did that jettison cause so much damage?...
>>
>>Mind you, I'm not looking to add fuel to this flame-war but I'm
>>curious.
>>--
>>
>>-Gord.
>
>
>Good question. We had no safe salvo option. If you salvoed, they all went out
>amed and we had the arming wires to show for it. Over the PO valley I got me a
>battle star because of live Salvo. But that is another story for another time.
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

Are you saying that there was no _option_ to drop ordnance 'safe'
at all then?. Or was it _policy_ to jettison 'live' just in case
there was interesting enemy items below, is that it then?...

I know that the shackles in the bomb-bays of the Lancasters,
Neptunes and Argus all had an electrical solenoid holding the end
of the arming wire in the shackle. When a 'safe drop' was needed
then this solenoid was powered which allowed the arming wire to
be pulled out of the shackle when the bomb was released therefore
the bomb wouldn't arm itself. That wasn't the case on the B-26 I
assume?.
--

-Gord.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
>From: "Gord Beaman" )
>Date: 9/7/03 11:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>>A question occured to me during this discussion of Patton being
>>>stopped because of all the damage caused by a bomb-load being
>>>jettisoned, bridges blown up, roads obliterated etc.
>>>
>>>Weren't bombs dropped 'on safe' during jettison?...I know for a
>>>fact that modern bombers can choose whether to arm (or not) their
>>>ordnance, so why did that jettison cause so much damage?...
>>>
>>>Mind you, I'm not looking to add fuel to this flame-war but I'm
>>>curious.
>>>--
>>>
>>>-Gord.
>>
>>
>>Good question. We had no safe salvo option. If you salvoed, they all went
>out
>>amed and we had the arming wires to show for it. Over the PO valley I got
>me a
>>battle star because of live Salvo. But that is another story for another
>time.
>>
>>
>>Arthur Kramer
>
>Are you saying that there was no _option_ to drop ordnance 'safe'
>at all then?. Or was it _policy_ to jettison 'live' just in case
>there was interesting enemy items below, is that it then?...
>
>I know that the shackles in the bomb-bays of the Lancasters,
>Neptunes and Argus all had an electrical solenoid holding the end
>of the arming wire in the shackle. When a 'safe drop' was needed
>then this solenoid was powered which allowed the arming wire to
>be pulled out of the shackle when the bomb was released therefore
>the bomb wouldn't arm itself. That wasn't the case on the B-26 I
>assume?.
>--
>
>-Gord.


Nope. Safe Salvo was not an option. We didn't have a "safe" switch at all. We
salvoed over the PO Valley through the clouds and hit Panzers engaged in
battle. We all got battle stars for the Po Valley for that one. It was the only
"easy" battle start I ever won. I think our air generals worried about too many
safe releases over enemy targets so they just removed that option.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, "Gord
writes
>I know that the shackles in the bomb-bays of the Lancasters,
>Neptunes and Argus all had an electrical solenoid holding the end
>of the arming wire in the shackle. When a 'safe drop' was needed
>then this solenoid was powered which allowed the arming wire to
>be pulled out of the shackle when the bomb was released therefore
>the bomb wouldn't arm itself.

Same with the EMRUs (electromagnetic release units) and other launch
systems the kit I worked on interfaced with. "Safe jettison" was an
absolute requirement.


--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

[BUFDRVR]

>Your buddy Robbie did more damage to the war effort in his childishness

Childishness? The poor guy had two choices; descend to an extremely low
altitude and become target practice for every Jerry with a 7mm or greater, or
jettison his weapons and RTB. He chose the latter (as would *every* aviator
given those choices). Was it bad luck that his weapons destroyed a bridge and
slowed 3rd Army's advance? Yes. Was it intentional? No. Is it funny? Well, in
my opinion, no, but in certain situations with casulties every day, I don't
find it hard to believe that some found the humor in it. Sometimes its hard to
see a "cause-effect" relationship and much easier to see a ; "when its your
time, its your time" relationship.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Tarver Engineering]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >Date: 9/7/03 10:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
> >> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >> >Date: 9/7/03 10:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time
> >>
> >> >Your buddy Robbie did more damage to the war effort in his
childishness that
> >> >his 55 missions did to help. It would have been better if Robbie had
stayed
> >> >home.
> >>
> >> You are babbling about things you know nothing about. Your judgement
about
> >> combat has zero credibility since you were never there.
> >
> >Stopping Patton was a bad thing.
> >
> >
> .Nothing stopped Patton imbecile. Have you no sense of history you fool.

You have no sense of how many lives it costs to take a bridge intact, Art.

[Dave Holford]

" wrote:
>
> (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
> >>
> >>Are you saying that there was no _option_ to drop ordnance 'safe'
> >>at all then?. Or was it _policy_ to jettison 'live' just in case
> >>there was interesting enemy items below, is that it then?...
> >>
> >>I know that the shackles in the bomb-bays of the Lancasters,
> >>Neptunes and Argus all had an electrical solenoid holding the end
> >>of the arming wire in the shackle. When a 'safe drop' was needed
> >>then this solenoid was powered which allowed the arming wire to
> >>be pulled out of the shackle when the bomb was released therefore
> >>the bomb wouldn't arm itself. That wasn't the case on the B-26 I
> >>assume?.
> >>--
> >>
> >>-Gord.
> >
> >
> >Nope. Safe Salvo was not an option. We didn't have a "safe" switch at all. We
> >salvoed over the PO Valley through the clouds and hit Panzers engaged in
> >battle. We all got battle stars for the Po Valley for that one. It was the only
> >"easy" battle start I ever won. I think our air generals worried about too many
> >safe releases over enemy targets so they just removed that option.
> >
> >
> >Arthur Kramer
>
> Ok...makes sense, thanks...
> --
>
> -Gord.


Sounds like a serious problem on takeoff could result in some pretty
nasty damage close to home - must have happened a few times?

Dave

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
>From: Dave Holford
>Date: 9/7/03 2:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>
" wrote:
>>
>> (ArtKramr) wrote:
>>
>> >>
>> >>Are you saying that there was no _option_ to drop ordnance 'safe'
>> >>at all then?. Or was it _policy_ to jettison 'live' just in case
>> >>there was interesting enemy items below, is that it then?...
>> >>
>> >>I know that the shackles in the bomb-bays of the Lancasters,
>> >>Neptunes and Argus all had an electrical solenoid holding the end
>> >>of the arming wire in the shackle. When a 'safe drop' was needed
>> >>then this solenoid was powered which allowed the arming wire to
>> >>be pulled out of the shackle when the bomb was released therefore
>> >>the bomb wouldn't arm itself. That wasn't the case on the B-26 I
>> >>assume?.
>> >>--
>> >>
>> >>-Gord.
>> >
>> >
>> >Nope. Safe Salvo was not an option. We didn't have a "safe" switch at all.
>We
>> >salvoed over the PO Valley through the clouds and hit Panzers engaged in
>> >battle. We all got battle stars for the Po Valley for that one. It was the
>only
>> >"easy" battle start I ever won. I think our air generals worried about too
>many
>> >safe releases over enemy targets so they just removed that option.
>> >
>> >
>> >Arthur Kramer
>>
>> Ok...makes sense, thanks...
>> --
>>
>> -Gord.
>
>
>Sounds like a serious problem on takeoff could result in some pretty
>nasty damage close to home - must have happened a few times?
>
>Dave
>


Go to my website and read "Death on the Runway"


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Tarver Engineering]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >Date: 9/7/03 2:14 PM Pacific
>
> >You have no sense of how many lives it costs to take a bridge intact,
Art.

> How would you know?

The Germans didn't just help us out by leaving that bridge. Even an old
toggler like Art knows that.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 9/7/03 2:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time

> >Nope. Safe Salvo was not an option. We didn't have a "safe" switch at all.
>>We
>>> >salvoed over the PO Valley through the clouds and hit Panzers engaged in
>>> >battle. We all got battle stars for the Po Valley for that one. It was
>the
>>only
>>> >"easy" battle start I ever won. I think our air generals worried about
>too
>>many
>>> >safe releases over enemy targets so they just removed that option.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >Arthur Kramer
>>>
>>> Ok...makes sense, thanks...
>>> --
>>>
>>> -Gord.
>>
>>
>>Sounds like a serious problem on takeoff could result in some pretty
>>nasty damage close to home - must have happened a few times?
>>
>>Dave
>>
>
>
>Go to my website and read "Death on the Runway"
>
>
>Arthur Kramer
>344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>


In fact they were so concerned about "safe" releases that after every mission
we had to turn in an arming wire for each bomb we took off with. 8 500
pounders? We had better come home with 8 arming wires....OR ELSE ! Strike
photos were examined for holes which often meant unexploded bombs


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[[email protected]]

(ArtKramr) wrote:

>
>In fact they were so concerned about "safe" releases that after every mission
>we had to turn in an arming wire for each bomb we took off with. 8 500
>pounders? We had better come home with 8 arming wires....OR ELSE ! Strike
>photos were examined for holes which often meant unexploded bombs
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

'Or else' what Art?...certainly not to be argumentative here at
all but there's some questions in my mind. You say that there's
no way to drop with your bombs on safe because the 'powers that
be' were worried that bombs might get dropped unarmed so removed
the possibility. So what's this about 'coming home with less than
8 arming wires'?, how could you do that?.

Another question, Dave Holford asked about jettisoning your load
'live' in friendly territory if you had a problem shortly after
T.O. and you quoted a story which has no relation to that
problem.

Please understand that I'm NOT trying to trick you or anything
but having an analytical mind these things bother me...can you
help?.
--

-Gord.

[B2431]

>I find it reprehensible that Art can dismiss the efforts and lives of
>men who spent more weeks in combat than he did hours, just because they
>did not wear wings, with thoughtless smart-arse comments.
>
I haven't seen Art dismiss ground combat troops. The closest I can recall was a
while back when he pointed out that the 8th AF bomber crews had a lower
survival rate in 1942 than the cround combat forces ever did.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
>From: (B2431)
>Date: 9/7/03 5:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id:

>I haven't seen Art dismiss ground combat troops. The closest I can recall was
>a
>while back when he pointed out that the 8th AF bomber crews had a lower
>survival rate in 1942 than the cround combat forces ever did.
>
>Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired


That was true all through the war The AAC had the hiighest loss rate of any US
service. If you wanted to live, join the infantry. If you wanted to join the
AAC and live, be a cook.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[av8r]

Hi Dan

I know exactly where you are coming from. I had someone killed two feet
away from me and I survived. He was only 21 and three months short of
getting married. If one has never experienced something like this, then
they can never understand the pain and anger we live with and our own
peculiar ways of dealing with it.

Cheers...Chris

[Billy Beck]

Dave Holford > wrote:

>ArtKramr wrote:

>> >did YOU do in the war? Robbie flew 55
>> >missions.
>> >> How many did you fly?
>> >
>> >I see your point Art, those lives were just ordinary lives, not air crew.
>>
>> He did 55. How many did you fly?
>>
>> Arthur Kramer

>I find it reprehensible that Art can dismiss the efforts and lives of
>men who spent more weeks in combat than he did hours, just because they
>did not wear wings, with thoughtless smart-arse comments.
>
>No one doubts that his time in combat was stressful and terrifying,...

...as well as *brave*.

>...and may even have had some impact on the outcome of the European war; but he
>did get to eat decent meals, at a table in comfort, and to sleep in a
>safe bed every night.
>
>His recollections of history are interesting contributions, but his
>off-hand dismissal of everyone who was not in air combat is becoming
>tiresome.

Emphatically agreed.


Billy

http://www.two--four.net/weblog.php

[Billy Beck]

(ArtKramr) wrote:

>>Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
>>From: (B2431)
>>Date: 9/7/03 5:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>>Message-id:
>
>>I haven't seen Art dismiss ground combat troops. The closest I can recall was
>>a while back when he pointed out that the 8th AF bomber crews had a lower
>>survival rate in 1942 than the cround combat forces ever did.

>That was true all through the war The AAC had the hiighest loss rate of any US
>service. If you wanted to live, join the infantry. If you wanted to join the
>AAC and live, be a cook.

...or a targeteer, or an armorer or a crew-chief or any number of
other indispensible specialties without whom you never would have
gotten bombs anywhere near a target.

You're being simply despicable, Art.


Billy

http://www.two--four.net/weblog.php

[[email protected]]

(ArtKramr) wrote:

>>
>>'Or else' what Art?...certainly not to be argumentative here at
>>all but there's some questions in my mind. You say that there's
>>no way to drop with your bombs on safe because the 'powers that
>>be' were worried that bombs might get dropped unarmed so removed
>>the possibility. So what's this about 'coming home with less than
>>8 arming wires'?, how could you do that?.
>
>Simple. If the arming wires were not firmly and properly installed they could
>pull loose and go out with the bombs.. And since it is the bombardier who
>inspects and approves the bomb and arming wire installation, he is called on
>the carpet. And that is not a pretty picture.
>>

....if you say so...they sure didn't seem to trust you guys too
well did they?...

>>Another question, Dave Holford asked about jettisoning your load
>>'live' in friendly territory if you had a problem shortly after
>>T.O. and you quoted a story which has no relation to that
>>problem.
>

Your story had no relation to his question because there was no
opportunity or reason (yet) for him to jettison his
bombload...your answer was inappropriate to the question. Right?.


>Dumb question.

Not at all Art, It's a very reasonable question...why do you call
it dumb?...

> What do you think the answer is? Take a guess and you will
>probably be right. Hint: A B-26 with a highly trained crew is a valuable
>military asset never to be needlessly thrown away.
>
>
This reasoning certainly isn't clear to me Art...

....and, the answer can only be that the 'powers that be'
considered that the advantage of having a 'no safe drop'
outweighed the danger that it posed in case of a required
jettison in friendly territory.

I know for a fact that Canadian Bombers (in peacetime at least)
DO have provision for jettisoning (or dropping in any mode for
that matter) without arming the bomb bay load. (the reason that I
specify Canadian is because I'm not sure about other nation's
policies) I'd be quite surprised if any other nation was
different.

Was that policy standard throughout US Bomber Command?.

>>
>>Please understand that I'm NOT trying to trick you or anything
>>but having an analytical mind these things bother me...can you
>>help?.
>
>Lord knows I try. (sigh)
>
>
>Arthur Kramer
>344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

--

-Gord.

[Dana Miller]

Jeeze Tarver,

Get a grip. AA didn't actually TARGET the bridge, it just happened to
be there when he jettisoned. At low altitude, with the salvo decision
taken as a forced snap-judgement, there might not be a chance to look
for a "safe" place to drop. I think the other part of the Glen Miller
story was that his AC was transiting a pre-designated salvo area.

Stephen Ambrose tells a similar story of McGovern salvoing from his
B-24. I think they had one hanger and the the final kick shove, or
manipulation that popped the shackle open placed the bomb smack ontop of
an austrian farm house. He was sick. Long after the war, he finally
met the owner of said house. apparantly they hear the Lib coming (B-24s
were not apparantly sneeky) and dove for the root celler some distance
from the house. House went BOOOOOMMM! McGovern said hed DID see a
pilot deliberatly salvo into a civilian area. Some poople are born
jerks.

--
Dana Miller

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
>From: Dana Miller
>Date: 9/7/03 7:47 PM Pacific

>Get a grip. AA didn't actually TARGET the bridge, it just happened to
>be there when he jettisoned. At low altitude, with the salvo decision
>taken as a forced snap-judgement, there might not be a chance to look
>for a "safe" place to drop.

Let tell you how a hung up bomb is "kicked out". The Bombardier climbs back
into the bomb bay. A hung up bomb can become armed if the fuse end is what is
dangling and the arming wire has pulled out. The entire plane and crew are one
small move away from death under these circumstances. The bombardier is now in
the bombay with bombay doors open and a 180 mph relative wind beating on him..
He reaches back with his left hand and grips the bomb axe mounted on the bomb
bay wall, He pulls it loose and engages the end of the axe into the slot in the
A-2 shackle. Now he twists hard. If all goes well the shackle will now spring
open and the bomb will fall free. The bomb is armed of course since the arrming
wire has already piulled out and the arming vanes have been spinning at high
speed in the relative wind for some time. The bombardier can't look down to see
what is below. In fact he has no vision other then the bomb. His first concern
is to get the bomb out and save the plane and the crew. For an actual account
of one such actual occurance, go to my website and read, "After 58 years this
still burns my ass".


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[El Bastardo]

On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 01:37:54 GMT, "Gord Beaman" )
wrote:

(ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>>
>>>'Or else' what Art?...certainly not to be argumentative here at
>>>all but there's some questions in my mind. You say that there's
>>>no way to drop with your bombs on safe because the 'powers that
>>>be' were worried that bombs might get dropped unarmed so removed
>>>the possibility. So what's this about 'coming home with less than
>>>8 arming wires'?, how could you do that?.
>>
>>Simple. If the arming wires were not firmly and properly installed they could
>>pull loose and go out with the bombs.. And since it is the bombardier who
>>inspects and approves the bomb and arming wire installation, he is called on
>>the carpet. And that is not a pretty picture.
>>>
>
>...if you say so...they sure didn't seem to trust you guys too
>well did they?...
>

Would you?

Think about it.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
> (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
> >>
> >>'Or else' what Art?...certainly not to be argumentative here at
> >>all but there's some questions in my mind. You say that there's
> >>no way to drop with your bombs on safe because the 'powers that
> >>be' were worried that bombs might get dropped unarmed so removed
> >>the possibility. So what's this about 'coming home with less than
> >>8 arming wires'?, how could you do that?.
> >
> >Simple. If the arming wires were not firmly and properly installed they
could
> >pull loose and go out with the bombs.. And since it is the bombardier
who
> >inspects and approves the bomb and arming wire installation, he is
called on
> >the carpet. And that is not a pretty picture.
> >>
>
> ...if you say so...they sure didn't seem to trust you guys too
> well did they?...

The 344th was a terror machine, by the time Art got there. With little to
no strategic value.

[B2431]

>From: "Tarver Engineering"

<snip>

>The 344th was a terror machine, by the time Art got there. With little to
>no strategic value.
>

Maybe not strategic, but B-26s were excellent tactical bombers. As for the
"terror machine" part what do you think war is all about?

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
>From: (B2431)
>Date: 9/8/03 9:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>
><snip>
>
>>The 344th was a terror machine, by the time Art got there. With little to
>>no strategic value.
>>
>
>Maybe not strategic, but B-26s were excellent tactical bombers. As for the
>"terror machine" part what do you think war is all about?
>
>Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired
>
>

He has no idea what war is about. He has never been there. But I understand
he is an expert on Pitot tubes. (guffaw)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Phineas Pinkham]

"ArtKramr" < wrote in message >

>Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
>> He has no idea what war is about. He has never been there. But I
understand
> he is an expert on Pitot tubes. (guffaw)
>
>
> Arthur Kramer

Any moron who believes that Compass Deviation is always found on the bottom
of an Aeronautical Chart as you claimed, has no reason to GUFFAW!

[Tarver Engineering]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
>
> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
>
> <snip>
>
> >The 344th was a terror machine, by the time Art got there. With little
to
> >no strategic value.
> >
>
> Maybe not strategic, but B-26s were excellent tactical bombers. As for the
> "terror machine" part what do you think war is all about?

War is about killing soldiers, not women and children.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
>From: "Phineas Pinkham"
>Date: 9/8/03 3:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" < wrote in message >
>
>>Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
>>> He has no idea what war is about. He has never been there. But I
>understand
>> he is an expert on Pitot tubes. (guffaw)
>>
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>
>Any moron who believes that Compass Deviation is always found on the bottom
>of an Aeronautical Chart as you claimed, has no reason to GUFFAW!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



YAWN !


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[B2431]

>From: "Tarver Engineering"

>
>"B2431" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> >The 344th was a terror machine, by the time Art got there. With little
>to
>> >no strategic value.
>> >
>>
>> Maybe not strategic, but B-26s were excellent tactical bombers. As for the
>> "terror machine" part what do you think war is all about?
>
>War is about killing soldiers, not women and children.
>
Since when?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Brian Colwell]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "B2431" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > >The 344th was a terror machine, by the time Art got there. With little
> to
> > >no strategic value.
> > >
> >
> > Maybe not strategic, but B-26s were excellent tactical bombers. As for
the
> > "terror machine" part what do you think war is all about?
>
> War is about killing soldiers, not women and children.
>
> Sad as it may be.....Would you like to list the wars, where women and
children were not victims ? None that I have experienced !!

BMC

[ArVa]

>> Sad as it may be.....Would you like to list the wars, where women and
> children were not victims ? None that I have experienced !!
>
> BMC
>


The Falklands war?


ArVa

[Brian Colwell]

"ArVa" > wrote in message
...
> >> Sad as it may be.....Would you like to list the wars, where women and
> > children were not victims ? None that I have experienced !!
> >
> > BMC
> >
>
>
> The Falklands war?
>
>
> ArVa
>
I guess your right on that one (or pretty close) !! They claim there were
..3% civilian casualties (gender unknown ?)

Regards, BMC

[Guy Alcala]

Brian Colwell wrote:

> "ArVa" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >> Sad as it may be.....Would you like to list the wars, where women and
> > > children were not victims ? None that I have experienced !!
> > >
> > > BMC
> > >
> >
> >
> > The Falklands war?
> >
> >
> > ArVa
> >
> I guess your right on that one (or pretty close) !! They claim there were
> .3% civilian casualties (gender unknown ?)

IIRR, either two or three kelper women were killed by British NGFS in Port
Stanley. There were also some civilian casualties including one dead IIRC, as
a result of a bombing raid on one of the outlying airstrips, which in fact was
unoccupied by the Argentines.

Guy

[ArVa]

"Guy Alcala" > a écrit dans le message
de . ..
> Brian Colwell wrote:
>
> > "ArVa" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > >> Sad as it may be.....Would you like to list the wars, where women
and
> > > > children were not victims ? None that I have experienced !!
> > > >
> > > > BMC
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The Falklands war?
> > >
> > >
> > > ArVa
> > >
> > I guess your right on that one (or pretty close) !! They claim there
were
> > .3% civilian casualties (gender unknown ?)
>
> IIRR, either two or three kelper women were killed by British NGFS in Port
> Stanley. There were also some civilian casualties including one dead
IIRC, as
> a result of a bombing raid on one of the outlying airstrips, which in fact
was
> unoccupied by the Argentines.
>
> Guy
>


You're right, I didn't know this fact but three British women were indeed
killed during the war, as the house in which they stood on the outskirts of
Port Stanley was hit by a (British) shell. They were the only civilian
casualties of the war, according to this site :
http://www.raf.mod.uk/falklands/rafetcroll.html

I guess it just proves once again that there is no such thing as a "clean"
war and that this very concept is just a figment of some generals'
imagination...

Regards,
ArVa

[Brian Colwell]

"ArVa" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Guy Alcala" > a écrit dans le message
> de . ..
> > Brian Colwell wrote:
> >
> > > "ArVa" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > >> Sad as it may be.....Would you like to list the wars, where women
> and
> > > > > children were not victims ? None that I have experienced !!
> > > > >
> > > > > BMC
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The Falklands war?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ArVa
> > > >
> > > I guess your right on that one (or pretty close) !! They claim there
> were
> > > .3% civilian casualties (gender unknown ?)
> >
> > IIRR, either two or three kelper women were killed by British NGFS in
Port
> > Stanley. There were also some civilian casualties including one dead
> IIRC, as
> > a result of a bombing raid on one of the outlying airstrips, which in
fact
> was
> > unoccupied by the Argentines.
> >
> > Guy
> >
>
>
> You're right, I didn't know this fact but three British women were indeed
> killed during the war, as the house in which they stood on the outskirts
of
> Port Stanley was hit by a (British) shell. They were the only civilian
> casualties of the war, according to this site :
> http://www.raf.mod.uk/falklands/rafetcroll.html
>
> I guess it just proves once again that there is no such thing as a "clean"
> war and that this very concept is just a figment of some generals'
> imagination...
>
> Regards,
> ArVa
>
Got to give the Brits credit, at least they tried !

Regards, BMC

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
>From: "Brian Colwell"
>Date: 9/10/03 9:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time

>> I guess it just proves once again that there is no such thing as a "clean"
>> war and that this very concept is just a figment of some generals'
>> imagination...
>>
>> Regards,
>> ArVa
>>
>Got to give the Brits credit, at least they tried !
>
>Regards, BMC
>
>

Small war, few casualties. Big war. Lots of casualties. Falklands isn't typical
of anything.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, ArtKramr
> writes
>Small war, few casualties. Big war. Lots of casualties.

Yeah, but three civilian dead out of around a thousand is good going by
both sides.

>Falklands isn't typical
>of anything.

Ain't that the truth...

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

[Regnirps]

<< "ArVa" wrote:

I guess it just proves once again that there is no such thing as a "clean"
war and that this very concept is just a figment of some generals'
imagination... >>

It is cleaner than a day or two of traffic collisions in the Seattle area. And
we don't even use bombs.

-- Charlie Springer