Other 9/11 anniversary

[John Mullen]

Anyone else noticed the odd coincidence of the NYC atrocity with Amerikkka's
cynical destruction of Chile's elected government to be replaced by military
dictatorship?

John

[redc1c4]

John Mullen wrote:
>
> Anyone else noticed the odd coincidence of the NYC atrocity with Amerikkka's
> cynical destruction of Chile's elected government to be replaced by military
> dictatorship?

nope, only the plaintive cry of a loon drifting across the water.

redc1c4,
now, back to your village with you.
--
A Troop - 1st Squadron
404th Lemming Armored Cavalry

"Velox et Capillatus!"

[Keith Willshaw]

"John Mullen" > wrote in message
...
> Anyone else noticed the odd coincidence of the NYC atrocity with
Amerikkka's
> cynical destruction of Chile's elected government to be replaced by
military
> dictatorship?
>
> John
>
>

Anybody else noticed how trolls cant spell America

Keith

> > In article >,
> > says...
> > >
> > >Anyone else noticed the odd coincidence of the NYC atrocity with
> Amerikkka's
> > >cynical destruction of Chile's elected government to be replaced by
> military
> > >dictatorship?


yes, but i thought that this ng would pay more attention to the
crossing of the german border by the western allies on 9-11-44.

there is, after all, a 1 in 365.24 chance that any event in the past
happened on a september 11.

[Brian Allardice]

In article >,
says...
>
>Anyone else noticed the odd coincidence of the NYC atrocity with Amerikkka's
>cynical destruction of Chile's elected government to be replaced by military
>dictatorship?

Also the toll there was around 3,000.... Karma, man, karma........

Cheers,
dba

[John Mullen]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
...
>
> "John Mullen" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Anyone else noticed the odd coincidence of the NYC atrocity with
> Amerikkka's
> > cynical destruction of Chile's elected government to be replaced by
> military
> > dictatorship?
> >
> > John
> >
> >
>
> Anybody else noticed how trolls cant spell America
>
> Keith
>
>

Anybody else noticed how criticising the USA (proper name of country)
automatically makes one a troll on this medium? At least according to some.

As you might say yourself, irrelevant ad hom duly noted.

John

[John Mullen]

"Brian Allardice" > wrote in message
. ca...
> In article >,
> says...
> >
> >Anyone else noticed the odd coincidence of the NYC atrocity with
Amerikkka's
> >cynical destruction of Chile's elected government to be replaced by
military
> >dictatorship?
>
> Also the toll there was around 3,000.... Karma, man, karma........

Only 3000 died in Chile during the CIA coup and subsequent generation-long
military dictatorship? Seems on the low side to me. Hmmm.

Karma is right I suppose.

John

[John Mullen]

"John Mullen" > wrote in message
...
> "Brian Allardice" > wrote in message
> . ca...
> > In article >,

> > says...
> > >
> > >Anyone else noticed the odd coincidence of the NYC atrocity with
> Amerikkka's
> > >cynical destruction of Chile's elected government to be replaced by
> military
> > >dictatorship?
> >
> > Also the toll there was around 3,000.... Karma, man, karma........
>
> Only 3000 died in Chile during the CIA coup and subsequent generation-long
> military dictatorship? Seems on the low side to me. Hmmm.

BBC site gives 3000 for the death toll *during the CIA coup itself*.

http://www.memoriaviva.com/Desaparecidos/list.htm

gives a list of 1197 named 'disappeared' people during Pinochet's vile
reign, which, let's repeat it, only happened because

"The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to
decide for themselves."

"I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to
the irresponsibility of its people."

(both from good ole Henry Kissinger, though you could be forgiven for
suspecting they would be from someone wearing a Hakenkreuz!)

http://www.trentu.ca/~mneumann/pinochet.html gives some specimens of his
malodorous regime's US-supported torture activities. Not for the
faint-hearted.

Personally I suspect you might well be able to add a zero to that 3000
figure but I haven't been able to find anything authoritative. Maybe nobody
knows. Sad.

John

[Gordon]

>
>Anybody else noticed how criticising the USA (proper name of country)
>automatically makes one a troll on this medium? At least according to some.

No, John - to earn troll status you just have to.... well, you know - start by
asking a rhetorical question in as inflammitory a way as possible, then act
wounded when someone busts you on it. That generally does it.

Gordon

[John Mullen]

"Gordon" > wrote in message
...
> >
> >Anybody else noticed how criticising the USA (proper name of country)
> >automatically makes one a troll on this medium? At least according to
some.
>
> No, John - to earn troll status you just have to.... well, you know -
start by
> asking a rhetorical question in as inflammitory a way as possible, then
act
> wounded when someone busts you on it. That generally does it.
>
> Gordon

Aha. Got it. Which part of my post did you find inflammatory? And where did
I act wounded? Assuming that you agree with Keith's assertion that I was
trolling that is, you don't quite make that clear!

John

[Keith Willshaw]

"John Mullen" > wrote in message
...

>
> Anybody else noticed how criticising the USA (proper name of country)
> automatically makes one a troll on this medium? At least according to
some.
>

I would hope so as these newsgroups are for the discussion of
military aviation and naval issues, not the politics of 3 decades ago

Keith

[John Mullen]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
...
>
> "John Mullen" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> >
> > Anybody else noticed how criticising the USA (proper name of country)
> > automatically makes one a troll on this medium? At least according to
> some.
> >
>
> I would hope so as these newsgroups are for the discussion of
> military aviation and naval issues, not the politics of 3 decades ago
>
> Keith

Poor answer Keith.

Firstly, politics obviously have a very major impact on military aviation
and naval issues. Acquisition and deployment of ships and planes are and
have always been decided by politicians.

Secondly, ships and planes were of course used quite extensively in the CIA
coup in Chile, and in Pinochet's subsequent brutal military dictatorship.
(aside: is the CIA unique among intelligence communities in having deployed
military hardware, eg U2, A12 etc? I suspect not but can't off-hand think of
other examples. Did the former KGB have its own military assets or rely on
'mainstream' Soviet vehicles for its dirty work?)

Thirdly, events of the past have very interesting effects on events of the
future and present, particularly the US-led 'war on terror' which is of
course still unfolding in all its ramifications. Are you proposing these
groups should have a cut-off before which events cannot/should not be
discussed here? If so, I'll let you be the first to tell Art Kramer (of many
examples which spring to mind!)

Fourthly, in the modern era particularly, 'asymmetric warfare' brings
terrorism and politics right into the mainstream of military issues, if
anyone was ever in any doubt about this.

Incidentally, I wonder how many readers of this group are aware that
Pinochet's loathsome regime perpetrated murderous terrorism on US soil.

'One document, Kornbluh said, indicates that in 1991 the CIA destroyed a
file on Manuel Contreras, the former head of Chile's secret police now
serving a sentence for the 1976 car bombing in Washington that killed
Orlando Letelier, a prominent Chilean opposition leader. Letelier's American
assistant Ronni Moffitt also died in the blast'

http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/americas/11/13/cia.chile.02/

Best wishes

John

[Gordon]

>
>Aha. Got it. Which part of my post did you find inflammatory?

Well, John, exchanging the letter 'c' in America with three 'k's seems to have
done it for me. Did you by chance make that change to -lower- the temp of your
post, or raise it? Be honest, sir.

>And where did
>I act wounded?

That plaintive bleat of a response to Keith calling you a troll, when you were
trolling.

>Assuming that you agree with Keith's assertion that I was
>trolling that is, you don't quite make that clear!

Well, John, any time you type America as "Amerikkka", just assume that all of
your readers will take the post as a troll. Which it was.

Being patriotic, as most of us here are (to one country or another), and being
wildly supportive of everything our governments do is not the same thing. But
the inference that everyone in America somehow supports the KKK or that the KKK
someone typifies the USA is going to make quite a few of us reply negatively,
as you must have intended.

Gordon

[John Mullen]

"Gordon" > wrote in message
...
> >
> >Aha. Got it. Which part of my post did you find inflammatory?
>
> Well, John, exchanging the letter 'c' in America with three 'k's seems to
have
> done it for me. Did you by chance make that change to -lower- the temp of
your
> post, or raise it? Be honest, sir.
>
> >And where did
> >I act wounded?
>
> That plaintive bleat of a response to Keith calling you a troll, when you
were
> trolling.
>
> >Assuming that you agree with Keith's assertion that I was
> >trolling that is, you don't quite make that clear!
>
> Well, John, any time you type America as "Amerikkka", just assume that all
of
> your readers will take the post as a troll. Which it was.
>
> Being patriotic, as most of us here are (to one country or another), and
being
> wildly supportive of everything our governments do is not the same thing.
But
> the inference that everyone in America somehow supports the KKK or that
the KKK
> someone typifies the USA is going to make quite a few of us reply
negatively,
> as you must have intended.

ISWYM. I apologise for any implication that all Americans support the KKK. I
suppose I was trying to show how awful I think America's support for
terrorism was in the past, and how counter-productive it has turned out to
be in the present. Maybe there is a (slight) link between historical US
knee-jerk hatred and fear of all things left-wing, and the KKK's knee-jerk
hatred and fear of all black people. I regret typing it that way though as
it actually dilutes the point I was trying to make, as well as any offence
caused to decent Americans.

However, I would have to add that for a country as capable of throwing its
weight around over a longish period, a lot of you seem to have pretty thin
skins!

Cheers

John

[tim gueguen]

"John Mullen" > wrote in message
...
> Anyone else noticed the odd coincidence of the NYC atrocity with
Amerikkka's
> cynical destruction of Chile's elected government to be replaced by
military
> dictatorship?

So, are you trying to claim that ****ed of Chileans were behind 911, and not
****ed off Saudis? And I do hope you weren't a fan of Maggie Thatcher, who
was actually buddies with Pinochet.

tim gueguen 101867

[John Mullen]

"tim gueguen" > wrote in message
. ca...
>
> "John Mullen" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Anyone else noticed the odd coincidence of the NYC atrocity with
> Amerikkka's
> > cynical destruction of Chile's elected government to be replaced by
> military
> > dictatorship?
>
> So, are you trying to claim that ****ed of Chileans were behind 911, and
not
> ****ed off Saudis?

Nah, looks like it would have been Arabian anti-Saudis right enough. Nothing
(of course) to do with Iraq.

>And I do hope you weren't a fan of Maggie Thatcher, who
> was actually buddies with Pinochet.

I never liked either of them, although in a way they were made for each
other. Thatch sucked up to Pinochet who she had a natural soft spot for as a
fellow right-wing dictator, as he was and she no doubt fantasised about
being. He paid back the favour by 'helping' the UK in the Falklands in 82.
And she tried to rerepay by speaking out for him when he was arrested
(rightly in my view) as the war criminal he is in 98. However, I don't think
that is the reason Tony B'Liar helped let him off scot-free. Nor do I think
it's because she is probably his major role-model in politics.

On-topic; anybody have any good refs for the Chilean forces involved in the
coup; I know the AF went with the army against the Govt and imagine the Navy
would have as well. Anybody got better info? I have various books that refer
to it in passing but no detailed info.

John

[Gordon]

>
>ISWYM. I apologise for any implication that all Americans support the KKK.

I greatly appreciate that apology - as a kid, I was sent to the opposite end of
the country and dropped into a school right out of hell, where it was a normal
part of the routine for various other kids to press KKK literature and flyers
into my hands in the halls. I was horrified by the attitudes I saw and was
damn thankful that I didn't have to deal with that type of bigotry for very
long! The KKK are an abomination, just as the National Socialists were to
Germany or the Shining Path to South America. I think every country has some
reason to feel shame about their past - but I don't feel that we need to accept
that any of those groups are best represented by those organizations.

> I
>suppose I was trying to show how awful I think America's support for
>terrorism was in the past, and how counter-productive it has turned out to
>be in the present.

Agree. Some of the things our government has pulled over the years - such as
this months' rollback of the EPA regulations concerning our air quality (to
name one of a hundred things off the top of my head) - just plain makes me
sick. Unfortunately, just like all other citizens of the world, Americans end
up getting stuck with whatever governing group best "sold" itself in the last
election - meaning sometimes we have bonesmen and other times, boneheads,
driving the bus. We can only hope that our nation will continue making
progress toward perfecting democracy. It ain't always pretty, but it beats
Stalinism and several other methods of leadership.

>Maybe there is a (slight) link between historical US
>knee-jerk hatred and fear of all things left-wing, and the KKK's knee-jerk
>hatred and fear of all black people.

Possible - I try to hate individuals (and only one at a time, as per mom's
instructions), not groups, so it is a foreign concept for me to hate anyone en
masse, with the exception of bigots in general.

>I regret typing it that way though as
>it actually dilutes the point I was trying to make, as well as any offence
>caused to decent Americans.

That's appreciated. Not that I am a 'decent American'! LOL

>However, I would have to add that for a country as capable of throwing its
>weight around over a longish period, a lot of you seem to have pretty thin
>skins!

True, but that has more to do with our leadership than the typical man on the
street. More than anything, folks here just hate to be identified by the
traits exhibited by a small percentage of losers, like most other countries
have to put up with as well. A good example is the recent unpleasantness of
the overt racist elected to public office in Austria - although he somehow won
the seat, it didn't suggest that the average Austrian agreed with his brand of
garbage. Same as here, basically.

v/r
Gordon

[Cub Driver]

On 09 Sep 2003 17:41:11 GMT, (Gordon) wrote:

>Well, John, any time you type America as "Amerikkka", just assume that all of
>your readers will take the post as a troll. Which it was.

One k will do it for me. The poster goes into the kill file forthwith.
Perhaps I've kill-filed a few innocent sods who genuinely can't spell,
but hey, they should have paid more attention when Sister Maria was
slapping the ruler into her palm.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

>The KKK are an abomination, just as the National Socialists were to
>Germany or the Shining Path to South America.

Hardly the same sort of thing. Not even the same sort of thing as Le
Pen in France.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Gordon]

>>The KKK are an abomination, just as the National Socialists were to
>>Germany or the Shining Path to South America.
>
>Hardly the same sort of thing. Not even the same sort of thing as Le
>Pen in France.

To me, "mass haters" are the same bag of ****, regardless of how successful or
unsuccessful they have been with carrying out their own personal brands of
racial "improvements".

G

[John Mullen]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
> On 09 Sep 2003 17:41:11 GMT, (Gordon) wrote:
>
> >Well, John, any time you type America as "Amerikkka", just assume that
all of
> >your readers will take the post as a troll. Which it was.
>
> One k will do it for me.

Wow! Like I said, thin skins...

>The poster goes into the kill file forthwith.
> Perhaps I've kill-filed a few innocent sods who genuinely can't spell,
> but hey, they should have paid more attention when Sister Maria was
> slapping the ruler into her palm.

Your loss!

John

[sddso]

If Mr Mullen is so cutesy-smart, perhaps he can explain why 3000-plus
perishing in the avoidance of (yet another) Leftist totalitarian country
are not an acceptable tradeoff for the 100,000,000 or so who have died
under Communist control. Especially since those who went by the board
in Chile were Communists, fellow travelers, pre-Sandalistas, and
intelligence operatives from Cuba or the USSR. Like we've some
especially troubling shortage of the intellectual idiots who support
Leftish policy -- even at this late date.

John Mullen wrote:
> "John Mullen" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>"Brian Allardice" > wrote in message
. ca...
>>
>>>In article >,
>
>
>
>>>says...
>>>
>>>>Anyone else noticed the odd coincidence of the NYC atrocity with
>>
>>Amerikkka's
>>
>>>>cynical destruction of Chile's elected government to be replaced by
>>
>>military
>>
>>>>dictatorship?
>>>
>>>Also the toll there was around 3,000.... Karma, man, karma........
>>
>>Only 3000 died in Chile during the CIA coup and subsequent generation-long
>>military dictatorship? Seems on the low side to me. Hmmm.
>
>
> BBC site gives 3000 for the death toll *during the CIA coup itself*.
>
> http://www.memoriaviva.com/Desaparecidos/list.htm
>
> gives a list of 1197 named 'disappeared' people during Pinochet's vile
> reign, which, let's repeat it, only happened because
>
> "The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to
> decide for themselves."
>
> "I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to
> the irresponsibility of its people."
>
> (both from good ole Henry Kissinger, though you could be forgiven for
> suspecting they would be from someone wearing a Hakenkreuz!)
>
> http://www.trentu.ca/~mneumann/pinochet.html gives some specimens of his
> malodorous regime's US-supported torture activities. Not for the
> faint-hearted.
>
> Personally I suspect you might well be able to add a zero to that 3000
> figure but I haven't been able to find anything authoritative. Maybe nobody
> knows. Sad.
>
> John
>
>

[Jim Watt]

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:56:30 -0600, sddso > wrote:

>If Mr Mullen is so cutesy-smart, perhaps he can explain why 3000-plus
>perishing in the avoidance of (yet another) Leftist totalitarian country
>are not an acceptable tradeoff for the 100,000,000 or so who have died
>under Communist control. Especially since those who went by the board
>in Chile were Communists, fellow travelers, pre-Sandalistas, and
>intelligence operatives from Cuba or the USSR. Like we've some
>especially troubling shortage of the intellectual idiots who support
>Leftish policy -- even at this late date.

Time to crank up the power qt the naval WT station in Alaska
to zap all those intellectual commie *******s before they are
conceived. (for the comfort of the pro-life movement).

--
Jim Watt http://www.gibnet.com

[ZZBunker]

sddso > wrote in message >...
> If Mr Mullen is so cutesy-smart, perhaps he can explain why 3000-plus
> perishing in the avoidance of (yet another) Leftist totalitarian country
> are not an acceptable tradeoff for the 100,000,000 or so who have died
> under Communist control. Especially since those who went by the board
> in Chile were Communists, fellow travelers, pre-Sandalistas, and
> intelligence operatives from Cuba or the USSR. Like we've some
> especially troubling shortage of the intellectual idiots who support
> Leftish policy -- even at this late date.

Mr. Mullen is not really all that smart, since he appears to be
a politician. Whom we have to explain once per day to their
zero-IQ minds, that there is no such thing as an elected
government. There are elected politicians, with their moronic
South American Goverments, retarted German ships, decrepit
Pisan Lean-To's, and loser Cuban baseball teams. And then there
are people with brains, guns, money, jobs, moon rockets,
Winter Olympic Teams that can actually operate a Bob Sled,
and Panama Canals.

[Jack]

"John Mullen" > wrote in message >...
> Anyone else noticed the odd coincidence of the NYC atrocity with Amerikkka's
> cynical destruction of Chile's elected government to be replaced by military
> dictatorship?
>
> John


why do you consider this coincidence "odd"?

[Jeffrey Smidt]

"John Mullen" > wrote in message news:<6oo7b.218$sY3.124@news-
>
> ISWYM. I apologise for any implication that all Americans support the KKK. I
> suppose I was trying to show how awful I think America's support for
> terrorism was in the past, and how counter-productive it has turned out to
> be in the present. Maybe there is a (slight) link between historical US
> knee-jerk hatred and fear of all things left-wing, and the KKK's knee-jerk
> hatred and fear of all black people. I regret typing it that way though as
> it actually dilutes the point I was trying to make, as well as any offence
> caused to decent Americans.


You're a freakin asshole. But don't take it personally, I'm just
making a point. My apologies, you dickweed.

Hmmm, doesn't work very well does it.


> However, I would have to add that for a country as capable of throwing its
> weight around over a longish period, a lot of you seem to have pretty thin
> skins!
>

Yep, watching 4 airliners (Aviation Content)full of people crash into
buildings and thousands die kind of does it for me. Working at ground
zero watching fireman scrapping remains off burnt buildings makes it
worse. Reading morons like you, well that's priceless.

Besides, being honest, we really haven't begun to 'throw our weight
around'. Just little love taps trying to correct some misguided
deliquents. Not that any of this will penetrate your wall of
stupidity, but maybe some marginally rational soul might get a
glimmer.

skoal, troll.

[John Mullen]

"Jeffrey Smidt" > wrote in message
om...
> "John Mullen" > wrote in message news:<6oo7b.218$sY3.124@news-
> >
> > ISWYM. I apologise for any implication that all Americans support the
KKK. I
> > suppose I was trying to show how awful I think America's support for
> > terrorism was in the past, and how counter-productive it has turned out
to
> > be in the present. Maybe there is a (slight) link between historical US
> > knee-jerk hatred and fear of all things left-wing, and the KKK's
knee-jerk
> > hatred and fear of all black people. I regret typing it that way though
as
> > it actually dilutes the point I was trying to make, as well as any
offence
> > caused to decent Americans.
>
>
> You're a freakin asshole. But don't take it personally, I'm just
> making a point. My apologies, you dickweed.
>
> Hmmm, doesn't work very well does it.

No it certainly does not. What point are youtrying to make here though?

>
> > However, I would have to add that for a country as capable of throwing
its
> > weight around over a longish period, a lot of you seem to have pretty
thin
> > skins!
> >
>
> Yep, watching 4 airliners (Aviation Content)full of people crash into
> buildings and thousands die kind of does it for me. Working at ground
> zero watching fireman scrapping remains off burnt buildings makes it
> worse.

It was, as I said, an atrocity. (Go and look it up, or get a grown-up to do
it for you)

>Reading morons like you, well that's priceless.

Hey, glad to be of service.

>
> Besides, being honest, we really haven't begun to 'throw our weight
> around'. Just little love taps trying to correct some misguided
> deliquents.

This is the attitude that worries me. You see, the more people you guys
kill, the more people will hate you, and the more at... sorry, the more bad
things will happen to you. Hope that's simple enough for you.

>Not that any of this will penetrate your wall of
> stupidity, but maybe some marginally rational soul might get a
> glimmer.

Well, we live in hope, eh?

> skoal, troll.

Ad homs won't break my bones. And I've survived being called a troll by
retards before.

John

[John Mullen]

"Jack" > wrote in message
om...
> "John Mullen" > wrote in message
>...
> > Anyone else noticed the odd coincidence of the NYC atrocity with
Amerikkka's
> > cynical destruction of Chile's elected government to be replaced by
military
> > dictatorship?
> >
> > John
>
>
> why do you consider this coincidence "odd"?

Well, as someone else said, it's a 1 in 365.24 chance. So that's why.

John

[Michael P. Reed]

In message >, > wrote:
> > > In article >,
>
> > > says...
> > > >
> > > >Anyone else noticed the odd coincidence of the NYC atrocity with
> > Amerikkka's
> > > >cynical destruction of Chile's elected government to be replaced by
> > military
> > > >dictatorship?
>
>
> yes, but i thought that this ng would pay more attention to the
> crossing of the german border by the western allies on 9-11-44.

Hmmm, when I saw "Other 9/11 anniversary" I thought it was a reference to the
Battle of the Brandywine.

<g>


--
Regards,

Michael P. Reed

[Cub Driver]

>> yes, but i thought that this ng would pay more attention to the
>> crossing of the german border by the western allies on 9-11-44.
>
>Hmmm, when I saw "Other 9/11 anniversary" I thought it was a reference to the
>Battle of the Brandywine.

There's a party trick based on the odds that if there are twenty
people in a room, two of them will share the same birthday. The same
of course is true of anniversaries. Still, for any American alive in
1941, there is only one December 7, and for any American alive in
2001, only one September 11.

One of my September rituals is to fly "around the mountains", a very
pretty trip. That's what I was doing on 9/11/01 when I was so rudely
interrupted www.warbirdforum.com/defcon.htm

I tried to finish the trip last September but the weather didn't
cooperate. Yesterday was just grand: sunny, no wind, just some mist in
the valleys that cleared off while I was refueling at Moultonborough
(where I got stuck two years ago).

The only sour note was when driving home I realized that the flags
were at half-staff. I didn't care for that. Crikey, it wasn't a
traffic accident! We didn't lower the flags on 12/7/43.

And those who died at Pearl Harbor, Clark Field, etc., didn't spend
the second anniversary filing lawsuits against Tojo, the Emperor,
Curtiss-Wright, and Mitsubishi.



all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com