Bomber-jacket leather and our law

[Mike Yared]

from http://www.washtimes.com/national/inring.htm
Buy Pakistani?
The Pentagon is about to waive "buy American" provisions of U.S. law and
allow Pakistan to provide the goatskin leather used in the distinctive U.S.
aviator bomber jackets. The Defense Department has notified a U.S. leather
tanner that it will waive provisions of the law known as the Berry Amendment
that requires the Pentagon to buy key components from U.S. manufacturers. In
April, the Pentagon announced it would buy 12,000 to 30,000 of the brown,
fur-collared bomber jackets over the next several years. According to
congressional aides, the Defense Department in the past allowed the jackets
to be made with Pakistani goatskin. This is because the military did not
believe either that U.S. suppliers had sufficient stocks of raw U.S.
goatskins, or that U.S. tanners were capable of making the soft brown
leather. According to the aides, the Pentagon believes the buy-American law
does not apply to the leather used to make the bomber jackets, only the
jackets themselves. We are told that the United States has plenty of
suppliers of raw goatskin for the jackets and at least seven tanners who can
make the jackets. "The Pentagon's disregard of the Berry Amendment to allow
foreign leather to be used in this procurement is entirely unnecessary, as
well as unlawful," one House aide said. "The Defense Department should be
urged to reconsider its waiver." Proposed changes to the Berry Amendment in
the House version of the pending defense-authorization bill would include
bomber-jacket leather in the buy-American law.

[Tex Houston]

"Mike Yared" > wrote in message
...
> from http://www.washtimes.com/national/inring.htm
> Buy Pakistani?
> The Pentagon is about to waive "buy American" provisions of U.S. law
and
> allow Pakistan to provide the goatskin leather used in the distinctive
U.S.
> aviator bomber jackets. The Defense Department has notified a U.S. leather
> tanner that it will waive provisions of the law known as the Berry
Amendment
> that requires the Pentagon to buy key components from U.S. manufacturers.
In
> April, the Pentagon announced it would buy 12,000 to 30,000 of the brown,
> fur-collared bomber jackets over the next several years.

I'm around the USAF a lot and I don't remember any such item as a brown
fur-collared bomber jacket as current issue. A-2 aircrew jacket maybe but I
think someone is describing a WWII item.

Tex

[Aerophotos]

sound like US Navy G- jackets

how ironic

flying over arab land wearing arab clothing

oh the irony

probly made by terrorists to



Tex Houston wrote:
>
> "Mike Yared" > wrote in message
> ...
> > from http://www.washtimes.com/national/inring.htm
> > Buy Pakistani?
> > The Pentagon is about to waive "buy American" provisions of U.S. law
> and
> > allow Pakistan to provide the goatskin leather used in the distinctive
> U.S.
> > aviator bomber jackets. The Defense Department has notified a U.S. leather
> > tanner that it will waive provisions of the law known as the Berry
> Amendment
> > that requires the Pentagon to buy key components from U.S. manufacturers.
> In
> > April, the Pentagon announced it would buy 12,000 to 30,000 of the brown,
> > fur-collared bomber jackets over the next several years.
>
> I'm around the USAF a lot and I don't remember any such item as a brown
> fur-collared bomber jacket as current issue. A-2 aircrew jacket maybe but I
> think someone is describing a WWII item.
>
> Tex

[Gene Storey]

"Mike Yared" > wrote
>
> Buy Pakistani?

Socialism, or Capitalism: it's your choice.

[Gene Storey]

"Aerophotos" > wrote
> sound like US Navy G- jackets
>
> how ironic
>
> flying over arab land wearing arab clothing
>
> oh the irony
>
> probly made by terrorists too

As opposed to a minority contractor front for the Mob.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
>From: "Tex Houston"
>Date: 9/12/03 6:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Mike Yared" > wrote in message
...
>> from http://www.washtimes.com/national/inring.htm
>> Buy Pakistani?
>> The Pentagon is about to waive "buy American" provisions of U.S. law
>and
>> allow Pakistan to provide the goatskin leather used in the distinctive
>U.S.
>> aviator bomber jackets. The Defense Department has notified a U.S. leather
>> tanner that it will waive provisions of the law known as the Berry
>Amendment
>> that requires the Pentagon to buy key components from U.S. manufacturers.
>In
>> April, the Pentagon announced it would buy 12,000 to 30,000 of the brown,
>> fur-collared bomber jackets over the next several years.
>
>I'm around the USAF a lot and I don't remember any such item as a brown
>fur-collared bomber jacket as current issue. A-2 aircrew jacket maybe but I
>think someone is describing a WWII item.
>
>Tex
>
>
>

If you go to my website and click on "After Koblenz" I am wearing a fur
collared flight jacket, but I don't recall the
designation. It sure wasn't an A-2. The shot was made in 1944 at Florennes
Belgium after the Koblenz mission.

..


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Tex Houston]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
> >From: "Tex Houston"
> >Date: 9/12/03 6:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> >I'm around the USAF a lot and I don't remember any such item as a brown
> >fur-collared bomber jacket as current issue. A-2 aircrew jacket maybe
but I
> >think someone is describing a WWII item.
> >
> >Tex
> >
> >
> >
>
> If you go to my website and click on "After Koblenz" I am wearing a fur
> collared flight jacket, but I don't recall the
> designation. It sure wasn't an A-2. The shot was made in 1944 at Florennes
> Belgium after the Koblenz mission.

> Arthur Kramer

I'm not doubting the issue in WWII (I remember them), I'm doubting the
description in the article against what the USAF is buying now.

Tex

[phil hunt]

On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 21:05:42 -0400, Mike Yared > wrote:
>from http://www.washtimes.com/national/inring.htm
> Buy Pakistani?
> The Pentagon is about to waive "buy American" provisions of U.S. law and
>allow Pakistan to provide the goatskin leather used in the distinctive U.S.
>aviator bomber jackets.

Do you know any economics theory? If not (and I suspect this is the
case, or you wouldn't have posted this), I suggest you look up
"comparative advantage" to see why it might well be in the interests
of both the USA and Pakistan to do this.

--
A: top posting

Q: what's the most annoying thing about Usenet?

[Cub Driver]

> The Pentagon is about to waive "buy American" provisions of U.S. law and
>allow Pakistan to provide the goatskin leather used in the distinctive U.S.
>aviator bomber jackets.

Sounds like a good idea to me. Goats don't have political opinions, do
they?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

Art, I found this on the web:

*******************************************

When the Air Force needs an authentic A-2 flight jacket for
hard-to-fit aviators, it comes to Flight Suits. Why? Because it knows
it can depend on us for quality materials, superior workmanship, and
guaranteed fit.
The original 1930's Army Air Corps A-2 was made from horsehide,
but the Air Force changed the specifications to seal brown goatskin
when it re-issued the A-2 in 1988. The design has remained the same as
in World War II.

The A-2 you get from us will be exactly the same jacket we supply
the Air Force. You can have an A-2 just like those we made for the
USAF Thunderbirds and President George W. Bush.

*******************************************

Do you like George Bush in that photo? That would decide the matter
one way or another :)


On 13 Sep 2003 01:45:24 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

>>Subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
>>From: "Tex Houston"
>>Date: 9/12/03 6:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>
>>"Mike Yared" > wrote in message
...
>>> from http://www.washtimes.com/national/inring.htm
>>> Buy Pakistani?
>>> The Pentagon is about to waive "buy American" provisions of U.S. law
>>and
>>> allow Pakistan to provide the goatskin leather used in the distinctive
>>U.S.
>>> aviator bomber jackets. The Defense Department has notified a U.S. leather
>>> tanner that it will waive provisions of the law known as the Berry
>>Amendment
>>> that requires the Pentagon to buy key components from U.S. manufacturers.
>>In
>>> April, the Pentagon announced it would buy 12,000 to 30,000 of the brown,
>>> fur-collared bomber jackets over the next several years.
>>
>>I'm around the USAF a lot and I don't remember any such item as a brown
>>fur-collared bomber jacket as current issue. A-2 aircrew jacket maybe but I
>>think someone is describing a WWII item.
>>
>>Tex
>>
>>
>>
>
>If you go to my website and click on "After Koblenz" I am wearing a fur
>collared flight jacket, but I don't recall the
>designation. It sure wasn't an A-2. The shot was made in 1944 at Florennes
>Belgium after the Koblenz mission.
>
>.
>
>
>Arthur Kramer
>344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[John Carrier]

I just skimmed the article, but I don't recall it mentioning the air force
(the original spec USAF jacket was horsehide IIRC). OTOH the Navy (remember
those guys that fly off boats?) G-2 is goatskin.

R / John

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
>From: Cub Driver
>Date: 9/13/03 3:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id:

> allow Pakistan to provide the goatskin leather used in the distinctive
>>>U.S.
>>>> aviator bomber jackets. The Defense Department has notified a U.S.
>leather
>>>> tanner that it will waive provisions of the law known as the Berry
>>>Amendment
>>>> that requires the Pentagon to buy key components from U.S. manufacturers.
>>>In
>>>> April, the Pentagon announced it would buy 12,000 to 30,000 of the brown,
>>>> fur-collared bomber jackets over the next several years.
>>>
>>>I'm around the USAF a lot and I don't remember any such item as a brown
>>>fur-collared bomber jacket as current issue. A-2 aircrew jacket maybe but
>I
>>>think someone is describing a WWII item.
>>>
>>>Tex
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>If you go to my website and click on "After Koblenz" I am wearing a fur
>>collared flight jacket, but I don't recall the
>>designation. It sure wasn't an A-2. The shot was made in 1944 at Florennes
>>Belgium after the Koblenz mission.
>>
>>.
>>
>>
>>Arthur Kramer
>>344th BG 494th BS
>> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>>Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>>http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>
>all the best -- Dan Ford
>email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9
>
>see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
>and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com


I don't understand how the Pentagon can revoke a law. I thought only congresss
could do that.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Michael Wise]

In article >,
Aerophotos > wrote:

> sound like US Navy G- jackets
>
> how ironic
>
> flying over arab land wearing arab clothing

Pakistanis are not arabs, nor is Arabic their language.


--Mike



> > > Buy Pakistani?
> > > The Pentagon is about to waive "buy American" provisions of U.S. law
> > and
> > > allow Pakistan to provide the goatskin leather used in the distinctive
> > U.S.
> > > aviator bomber jackets. The Defense Department has notified a U.S. leather
> > > tanner that it will waive provisions of the law known as the Berry
> > Amendment
> > > that requires the Pentagon to buy key components from U.S. manufacturers.
> > In
> > > April, the Pentagon announced it would buy 12,000 to 30,000 of the brown,
> > > fur-collared bomber jackets over the next several years.

[Ragnar]

"Aerophotos" > wrote in message
...
> sound like US Navy G- jackets
>
> how ironic
>
> flying over arab land wearing arab clothing

Pity you're an idiot. Pakistanis aren't Arabs.

[Cub Driver]

On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 06:05:53 -0400, Cub Driver >
wrote:

>Do you like George Bush in that photo? That would decide the matter
>one way or another :)

Excuse me, Art! I wasn't inquiring about your political preferences. I
mean to ask: do you *look* like Geo Bush in that photo!

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
>From: Cub Driver
>Date: 9/14/03 2:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 06:05:53 -0400, Cub Driver >
>wrote:
>
>>Do you like George Bush in that photo? That would decide the matter
>>one way or another :)
>
>Excuse me, Art! I wasn't inquiring about your political preferences. I
>mean to ask: do you *look* like Geo Bush in that photo!
>
>all the best -- Dan Ford
>email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9
>
>see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
>and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com


Naaaah. We never flew in all that fancy stuff.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Cub Driver]

On 14 Sep 2003 11:32:04 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

>Naaaah. We never flew in all that fancy stuff.

Pity. You might have had a great career in politics.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
>From: Cub Driver
>Date: 9/15/03 2:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On 14 Sep 2003 11:32:04 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>Naaaah. We never flew in all that fancy stuff.
>
>Pity. You might have had a great career in politics.
>

Guess I was lucky after all.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Michael]

(ArtKramr) wrote in message >...
> >Subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
> >From: "Tex Houston"
> >Date: 9/12/03 6:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"Mike Yared" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> from http://www.washtimes.com/national/inring.htm
> >> Buy Pakistani?
> >> The Pentagon is about to waive "buy American" provisions of U.S. law
> and
> >> allow Pakistan to provide the goatskin leather used in the distinctive
> U.S.
> >> aviator bomber jackets. The Defense Department has notified a U.S. leather
> >> tanner that it will waive provisions of the law known as the Berry
> Amendment
> >> that requires the Pentagon to buy key components from U.S. manufacturers.
> In
> >> April, the Pentagon announced it would buy 12,000 to 30,000 of the brown,
> >> fur-collared bomber jackets over the next several years.

No reason US tanneries can't meet that small demand spread over
several years. Jeez, more leather jackets than that where made in a
month during WWII.

> >I'm around the USAF a lot and I don't remember any such item as a brown
> >fur-collared bomber jacket as current issue. A-2 aircrew jacket maybe but I
> >think someone is describing a WWII item.

They are describing the USN G-1 (I'm wearing one today), but the spec
for that jacket was changed from goat to cow back in '69 or '70. G-1s
are still made of goat for the public, but I thought all the jackets
produced for the Navy were cow. Maybe some are goat...

The USAF uses goat for their current A-2, and recently made changes to
the jacket pattern to make it easier to procure quality goatskin for
the jackets.

As for using US or foreign leather, who cares? The US shouldn't even
be producing either jacket. Both the A-2 and G-1 are useless in the
cockpit of modern AC. I don't buy the story that there is a shortage
of goatskin in the US though.

> If you go to my website and click on "After Koblenz" I am wearing a fur
> collared flight jacket, but I don't recall the designation. It sure wasn't an > A-2. The shot was made in 1944 at Florennes Belgium after the Koblenz mission.

You're wearing a B-10, probably my favorite flight jacket.
Standardized in July '43, arrived in the ETO in March '44 and were
used through the end of the war. No leather in it though... cotton
shell with an alpaca lining. Much warmer than an A-2 (or a B-3 if you
wear an F-3 suit under B-10) and much easier to mass produce.

~Michael

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
>From: (Michael)
>Date: 9/15/03 9:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote in message
>...
>> >Subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
>> >From: "Tex Houston"
>> >Date: 9/12/03 6:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >
>> >"Mike Yared" > wrote in message
>> ...


>
>> >I'm around the USAF a lot and I don't remember any such item as a brown
>> >fur-collared bomber jacket as current issue. A-2 aircrew jacket maybe but


>
>> If you go to my website and click on "After Koblenz" I am wearing a fur
>> collared flight jacket, but I don't recall the designation. It sure wasn't
>an > A-2. The shot was made in 1944 at Florennes Belgium after the Koblenz
>mission.
>
>You're wearing a B-10, probably my favorite flight jacket.
>Standardized in July '43, arrived in the ETO in March '44 and were
>used through the end of the war. No leather in it though... cotton
>shell with an alpaca lining. Much warmer than an A-2 (or a B-3 if you
>wear an F-3 suit under B-10) and much easier to mass produce.
>
>~Michael
>

Yeah it was a nice warm jacket. Not as jazzy as my A-2 but a hell of a lot
warmer. And now that you mention B-10 it rings a bell. Thanks.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Cub Driver]

On 15 Sep 2003 09:07:14 -0700, (Michael) wrote:

> No leather in it though... cotton
>shell with an alpaca lining. Much warmer than an A-2 (or a B-3 if you
>wear an F-3 suit under B-10) and much easier to mass produce.

I think it was about the time of The Great Santini when the fighter?
pilots of the USAF persuaded the guvmint to give them back their
leather jackets.

Cotton of course is better than nylon, but it still burns. Pilots
continue to favor leather today, though they aren't consistent about
this. I've never seen a pilot at the local airfield togged out in
leather helmet or trousers. Probably, like the Great Santini's pals,
they like the leather jacket for its WWI and WWII associations.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
>From: Cub Driver
>Date: 9/16/03 2:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On 15 Sep 2003 09:07:14 -0700, (Michael) wrote:
>
>> No leather in it though... cotton
>>shell with an alpaca lining. Much warmer than an A-2 (or a B-3 if you
>>wear an F-3 suit under B-10) and much easier to mass produce.
>
>I think it was about the time of The Great Santini when the fighter?
>pilots of the USAF persuaded the guvmint to give them back their
>leather jackets.
>
>Cotton of course is better than nylon, but it still burns. Pilots
>continue to favor leather today, though they aren't consistent about
>this. I've never seen a pilot at the local airfield togged out in
>leather helmet or trousers. Probably, like the Great Santini's pals,
>they like the leather jacket for its WWI and WWII associations.
>
>all the best -- Dan Ford
>email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9
>
>see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
>and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com


I notice that you only reference pilots and pilot preferences in regard to
jackets. It took a lot more than just pilots in bombers to get the entire job
done, How soon they forget.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Mike Marron]

> (Michael) wrote:

>No leather in it though... cotton shell with an alpaca lining.
>Much warmer than an A-2 (or a B-3 if you wear an F-3 suit
>under B-10) and much easier to mass produce.

Back in my H.S. days on the ranch I often wore my Dad's
arctic flight jacket while doing the chores. Dark blue nylon
with the old 50's-era USAF insignia dyed on the shoulder.
Ideal when sitting in a saddle rounding up the herd at 30-below
zero since it was neatly trimmed at the waist, had a full,
zippered hood lined with genuine wolf hair that completely
kept out the driving snow (although it was like looking through a
tunnel). The heavy jacket was issued to him while stationed at
Elmendorf back in the early 60's and still hangs in my closet.
Quality, unique jacket, and when traveling up north heads turn
to admire it.

-Mike Marron

[Michael]

Cub Driver > wrote in message >...
> On 15 Sep 2003 09:07:14 -0700, (Michael) wrote:
>
> > No leather in it though... cotton
> >shell with an alpaca lining. Much warmer than an A-2 (or a B-3 if you
> >wear an F-3 suit under B-10) and much easier to mass produce.
>
> I think it was about the time of The Great Santini when the fighter?
> pilots of the USAF persuaded the guvmint to give them back their
> leather jackets.

The USAF brought the A-2 back in '87 or '88. The story as I read it
was that a squadron commander saw the A-2s his men were buying
privately to wear off base, and thought it might be a good moral
builder if he could get approval for the entire squadron to get them
to wear on duty. His request went up the chain of command and someone
along the way got the idea they'd be a good moral builder for all USAF
aircrew and it went from there.

> Cotton of course is better than nylon, but it still burns.

I don't know which is better or worse. The AAF only made cotton
flight jackets for the last two years of WWII, then switched to nylon,
which they used until the 70s. So I'd assume the nylon was giving
them some sort of advantage the cotton wasn't and that's why they used
it, but who knows. Neither's as good as Nomex, that's for sure. ;)

> Pilots continue to favor leather today, though they aren't consistent about
> this. I've never seen a pilot at the local airfield togged out in
> leather helmet or trousers. Probably, like the Great Santini's pals,
> they like the leather jacket for its WWI and WWII associations.

Oh, no doubt. The leather jackets have a lot more style than the
nylon and Nomex ones, and a certain vintage mystique that gives them
lots of appeal. But a leather windbreaker designed in the '30s and
intended for summer use in an open cockpit doesn't really fit in today
though. The AAF realized the A-2 didn't fit in in the 40s, and that's
why they switched to the B-10. Leather is too hot and doesn't breathe
in a closed cockpit at lower alt, and isn't warm enough at high alt.
In the case of the Navy's jacket, the G-1, I've read it hasn't been
worn in aircraft with ejection seats since the 50s because its fur
collar gets in the way of harnesses, the helmet and its wiring.

Why on earth we still make either jacket (A-2 & G-1) for military use
is beyond me. They aren't fucntional in the air, they fit into a
limited temp range on the ground, and the current jackets just aren't
that good looking IMHO (*especially* when compared to vintage jackets
from the 30s-50s). But if they make the guys and gals feel better, I
guess we'll keep making 'em. Spending $100-$150 on a jacket for
someone isn't that much after you've already spent millions training
them, is it? ;)

~Michael

[B2431]

>
>Why on earth we still make either jacket (A-2 & G-1) for military use
>is beyond me. They aren't fucntional in the air, they fit into a
>limited temp range on the ground, and the current jackets just aren't
>that good looking IMHO (*especially* when compared to vintage jackets
>from the 30s-50s). But if they make the guys and gals feel better, I
>guess we'll keep making 'em. Spending $100-$150 on a jacket for
>someone isn't that much after you've already spent millions training
>them, is it? ;)
>
>~Michael
>
The Air Force did it to slow down the rate of pilots going to airlines. At
least that's what they told us in commander's call and the Air Force newsrag.
They also said helicopter pilots weren't going to get them because they weren't
going to the airlines.

In any event the leather jackets are not authorized for use in flight.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[[email protected]]

Mike Marron > wrote:

>
>Back in my H.S. days on the ranch I often wore my Dad's
>arctic flight jacket while doing the chores. Dark blue nylon
>with the old 50's-era USAF insignia dyed on the shoulder.
>Ideal when sitting in a saddle rounding up the herd at 30-below
>zero since it was neatly trimmed at the waist, had a full,
>zippered hood lined with genuine wolf hair that completely
>kept out the driving snow (although it was like looking through a
>tunnel). The heavy jacket was issued to him while stationed at
>Elmendorf back in the early 60's and still hangs in my closet.
>Quality, unique jacket, and when traveling up north heads turn
>to admire it.
>
>-Mike Marron
>
>
The RCAF 'Winter Flying Jacket' sounds quite similar to this.
Dark blue nylon outer shell with a smooth nylon quilted and
insulated interior. some kind of long coarse hair around the full
zippered hood. Great jacket for maintaining your body temp in a
chilly goose blind.
--

-Gord.

[Jdf4cheval]

I rode fence in

[Jdf4cheval]

I rode fence in Colorado winters (on sunny days) in a Royal Canadian Navy sea
coat. It was thick lined cotton, about the length of a USN pea coat, and wore
like iron until I lost it in a bar in Taos. Where did you ranch, Mike?
Joe F
<<
Back in my H.S. days on the ranch I often wore my Dad's
arctic flight jacket while doing the chores. Dark blue nylon
with the old 50's-era USAF insignia dyed on the shoulder.
Ideal when sitting in a saddle rounding up the herd at 30-below >>

[Mike Marron]

> (Jdf4cheval) wrote:

>I rode fence in Colorado winters (on sunny days) in a Royal Canadian Navy sea
>coat. It was thick lined cotton, about the length of a USN pea coat, and wore
>like iron until I lost it in a bar in Taos. Where did you ranch, Mike?

A little college town in the northwestern corner of Nebraska named
Chadron near the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation. My @#!*&% older
brother lost a snarling, ears-laid-back stuffed BEAR head in a fuggen
bar bet.

-Mike (grr) Marron

[Corey C. Jordan]

On 15 Sep 2003 09:07:14 -0700, (Michael) wrote:

>They are describing the USN G-1 (I'm wearing one today), but the spec
>for that jacket was changed from goat to cow back in '69 or '70. G-1s
>are still made of goat for the public, but I thought all the jackets
>produced for the Navy were cow. Maybe some are goat...
>
>The USAF uses goat for their current A-2, and recently made changes to
>the jacket pattern to make it easier to procure quality goatskin for
>the jackets.
>
>As for using US or foreign leather, who cares? The US shouldn't even
>be producing either jacket. Both the A-2 and G-1 are useless in the
>cockpit of modern AC. I don't buy the story that there is a shortage
>of goatskin in the US though.

I was wearing my A2 last week when the temps dropped into the 50s
at night. I also have two Navy G-1s.

My old issue G-1 is battered and well worn (it's over 25 years old).
My wife bought me both a new G-1 and an A-2 three years ago. She
ordered them from a company called "Airborne Leathers". Quality
is as good as current issue (both cowhide as is the current issue G-1),
but the price is dirt cheap. I compared these two against American made
$700 name brand jackets and found the construction to be just as
robust, although the leather quality was a bit inferior. However, when
you compare prices, the Chinese made jackets are an unbeatable value.

For example, MIL spec G-1 is $119, pile lined, US NAVY punched on the
wind flap exactly like issue. A-2 in goatskin or cowhide, cotton lined is just
$99!!!

They look great, fit great and wear like iron. And they smell marvelous.
My A-2 is especially soft and supple.

Airborne Leathers turns around orders quickly, they ship in quality boxes
and you have 30 days to wear the jacket and should you not like it, just
send it back for a refund.

You can visit their website at: http://www.airborne-leathers.com

My regards,


Widewing (C.C. Jordan)
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
http://www.netaces.org
http://www.hitechcreations.com

[Cub Driver]

On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 04:00:32 GMT,
(Corey C. Jordan) wrote:

>However, when
>you compare prices, the Chinese made jackets are an unbeatable value.
>
>For example, MIL spec G-1 is $119, pile lined, US NAVY punched on the
>wind flap exactly like issue. A-2 in goatskin or cowhide, cotton lined is just
>$99!!!

To bring the thread back to the original post, this is no doubt why
the guvmint is buying Pakistani goatskin.

I may investigate Airborne Leathers! Which is the "Flying Tigers"
jacket, the G-1 or G-2? If I'm going to buy fake, I want the most
authentic fake that money can buy.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Corey C. Jordan]

On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:26:34 -0400, Cub Driver > wrote:


>
>I may investigate Airborne Leathers! Which is the "Flying Tigers"
>jacket, the G-1 or G-2? If I'm going to buy fake, I want the most
>authentic fake that money can buy.

I have photos of the AVG guys taken during February of 1942.
Most are wearing G-1 jackets, with a few A-2s as well. Several of
them managed to get themselves the joint service AN-J-4 jacket
too.

However, the G-1 was the most common jacket among them simply
because so many were former Naval Aviators.

You can purchase a replica silk blood chit and sew it on the back of
a G-1 for the correct AVG look. These are available from U.S. Wings
at http://www.military-jackets.com/patches.asp $23.

So for around $150, you can make your own AVG jacket, or you can
buy one from http://www.flightsuits.com/leather_a2_avg.html for a whopping
$828!! Not only is it expensive, but it's an A-2 jacket, less common in the
AVG than the G-1.

My regards,

Widewing (C.C. Jordan)
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
http://www.netaces.org
http://www.hitechcreations.com

[Michael]

(Corey C. Jordan) wrote in message >...
> On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:26:34 -0400, Cub Driver > wrote:
>
>
> >
> >I may investigate Airborne Leathers! Which is the "Flying Tigers"
> >jacket, the G-1 or G-2? If I'm going to buy fake, I want the most
> >authentic fake that money can buy.

Looking at their website, I wouldn't buy anything from Airborne
Leather.

> I have photos of the AVG guys taken during February of 1942.
> Most are wearing G-1 jackets,

They are wearing the WWII version of the G-1, the M-422 or M-422A.
The G-1 designation wasn't adopted until '47. The "G-2" never was.

> with a few A-2s as well. Several of
> them managed to get themselves the joint service AN-J-4 jacket
> too.

The AN-J-4 wasn't standardized until mid '43, and didn't reach flyers
until '44. The AVG guys are wearing USN M-445s.

> However, the G-1 was the most common jacket among them simply
> because so many were former Naval Aviators.

The M-422 was worn buy the AVG because when the Chinese bought flight
gear to outfit them, they bought USN gear.

> You can purchase a replica silk blood chit and sew it on the back of
> a G-1 for the correct AVG look. These are available from U.S. Wings
> at http://www.military-jackets.com/patches.asp $23.
>
> So for around $150, you can make your own AVG jacket, or you can
> buy one from http://www.flightsuits.com/leather_a2_avg.html for a whopping
> $828!! Not only is it expensive, but it's an A-2 jacket, less common in the
> AVG than the G-1.

Over priced, and it isn't even done up as an AVG jacket, it's a 23rd
FG jacket.

If I wanted to make a reasonably priced and pretty authentic AVG
jacket, I'd get a Flight Suits (now called Gibson and Barnes) M-422A
and one of their silk blood chits to sew on the back. Eastman Leather
Clothing and The Real McCoy's also make excellent reproduction M-422s,
but they start at $600.

~Michael

[Corey C. Jordan]

On 18 Sep 2003 06:06:13 -0700, (Michael) wrote:


>
>Looking at their website, I wouldn't buy anything from Airborne
>Leather.

Why not, because they're a small store-front business?

In case you aren't aware of it, about 98% of new businesses opening
their doors this year are small store-front or garage based establishments.

Indeed, the majority of the Fortune 500 companies began the same way.
Big idea, small budget. Service and quality are what they offer. Dial their
number and talk to a real person concerned to satisfy a customer.

As to their products, virtually every Chinese Jacket sold in this country is
made in one of three factories. Quality is good and the value excellent.

My firm has been buying from China for several years and we have constructed our
own manufacturing facility there. The quality of machined parts is always
improving and they are anxious to compete on their own merit.

My regards,

Widewing (C.C. Jordan)
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
http://www.netaces.org
http://www.hitechcreations.com

[Cub Driver]

>The AN-J-4 wasn't standardized until mid '43, and didn't reach flyers
>until '44. The AVG guys are wearing USN M-445s.

Actually, no. I won't go into the niceties of A dash and M dash
jackets, but the AVG pilots were told to bring their own flight
jackets with them. So the army pilots for the most part wore the same
jackets they'd worn in the Army Air Corps--not navy issue.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Michael]

(Corey C. Jordan) wrote in message >...
> On 18 Sep 2003 06:06:13 -0700, (Michael) wrote:
>
>
> >
> >Looking at their website, I wouldn't buy anything from Airborne
> >Leather.
>
> Why not, because they're a small store-front business?

No. I've got a narrow definition of what an A-2 (and G-1) is, and
their product doesn't meet that. It's a poor representation of the
A-2, at best.

~Michael

[Michael]

Cub Driver > wrote in message >...
> >The AN-J-4 wasn't standardized until mid '43, and didn't reach flyers
> >until '44. The AVG guys are wearing USN M-445s.
>
> Actually, no.

No what? The only sheepskin jackets I've seen worn by AVG guys were
Navy jackets. Whether they brought them with them, or the Chinese
bought them for them, I can't saw for sure. But *NO ONE* was wearing
and AN-J-4 in '42. Whether or not any of the AAC guys brought along
B-3s, I don't know. I've never seen a photo of anyone wearing one.

> I won't go into the niceties of A dash and M dash jackets,

The "A" jackets are AAC/AAF, the "M" jacket are USN. AAC/AAF garments
with the "A" prefix are usually considered to be summer wear and those
with a "B" to be winter wear. Is there something beyond that that I
need enlightened about?

> but the AVG pilots were told to bring their own flight
> jackets with them. So the army pilots for the most part wore the same
> jackets they'd worn in the Army Air Corps--not navy issue.

I'm well aware that some AAC AVG pilots (and ground crew) brought
along A-2s and other various AAC gear. But the AVG pilots used lots
of Navy flight gear, regardless of which branch they came from.

~Michael

[Corey C. Jordan]

On 19 Sep 2003 06:30:55 -0700, (Michael) wrote:

(Corey C. Jordan) wrote in message >...
>> On 18 Sep 2003 06:06:13 -0700, (Michael) wrote:
>>
>>
>> >
>> >Looking at their website, I wouldn't buy anything from Airborne
>> >Leather.
>>
>> Why not, because they're a small store-front business?
>
>No. I've got a narrow definition of what an A-2 (and G-1) is, and
>their product doesn't meet that. It's a poor representation of the
>A-2, at best.
>
>~Michael

Well, I have a mid 1970s issue G-1 and the Chinese copy. I'll be damned
if I can tell the difference without knowing which is which until I closely
inspect the jacket and find that the Chinese jacket has slash pockets
concealed at the seam, a feature I wish the MIL spec jacket had.

I guess that I'm not such a snob that I'll turn my nose at a perfectly
adequate garment that has the look of the original without the outrageous
expense of the high end stuff worn many wannabe geeks (no inference intended).

My regards,

Widewing (C.C. Jordan)
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
http://www.netaces.org
http://www.hitechcreations.com

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
>From: (Corey C. Jordan)
>Date: 9/19/03 7:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id:

> I'll be damned
>if I can tell the difference without knowing which is which until I closely
>inspect the jacket and find that the Chinese jacket has slash pockets
>concealed at the seam, a feature I wish the MIL spec jacket had.

Officers do not put their hands in their pockets


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, ArtKramr
> writes
>Officers do not put their hands in their pockets

Do they get Other Ranks to it for them? :)

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

[Cub Driver]

On 20 Sep 2003 02:13:10 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

>Officers do not put their hands in their pockets

Not even pilots? Crikey, I have this image of the cap mashed down, the
Lucky Strike dangling, the elbows sticking out, and the
hands-a-pocket.

Perhaps not fighter pilots! They need their hands to talk, don't they?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

On 19 Sep 2003 08:11:15 -0700, (Michael) wrote:

>and AN-J-4 in '42. Whether or not any of the AAC guys brought along
>B-3s, I don't know. I've never seen a photo of anyone wearing one.

Nevertheless, of 99 AVG pilots, maybe 40 were from the Army Air Corps,
and almost all of them brought their flight jackets with them.

Have you got a copy of R T Smith's Tale of a Tiger? Duke Hedman I
believe was an army pilot; he's shown wearing a flight jacket on p.
166.

Jim Cross p. 131

Oley Olson is wearing a shearling jacket p. 180. But he was a squadron
leader and would have qualified for a new jacket! Evidently a bunch of
jackets came in, because there's a portrait of the 3rd Sq ground crew
on p. 178 and most of the men are wearing those shearling-line
jackets. They aren't shown in any of the early photographs.

Here's an interesting one: p. 339. Standing on left is Erik Shilling,
late of this newsgroup, wearing a jacket that is distinctly different
from the others. Perhaps it is brown? It appears to have no fuzzy
collar. Standing beside him is Oley Olson (who may just possibly have
his hands in his pants pocket, Art :) wearing a black? jacket with a
moulton? collar, which is what most of the others are wearing. Olson
and Shilling are both army pilots. Seated left to right are R T Smith,
army, same jacket as Olson; Jernstedt, marines, a cloth jacket?; then
Prescott, Laughlin, and Reed, all wearing the Olson-type jacket.

Anyone got this book & care to comment?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Marcus Andersson]

Aerophotos > wrote in message >...
> sound like US Navy G- jackets
>
> how ironic
>
> flying over arab land wearing arab clothing
>
> oh the irony
>
> probly made by terrorists to
>


If you had read the previous message better, you'd have seen it said
that this particular jacket would *not* be made in the U.S.

[Michael]

(Corey C. Jordan) wrote in message >...
> On 19 Sep 2003 06:30:55 -0700, (Michael) wrote:
>
> (Corey C. Jordan) wrote in message >...
> >> On 18 Sep 2003 06:06:13 -0700, (Michael) wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Looking at their website, I wouldn't buy anything from Airborne
> >> >Leather.
> >>
> >> Why not, because they're a small store-front business?
> >
> >No. I've got a narrow definition of what an A-2 (and G-1) is, and
> >their product doesn't meet that. It's a poor representation of the
> >A-2, at best.
> >
> >~Michael
>
> Well, I have a mid 1970s issue G-1 and the Chinese copy. I'll be damned
> if I can tell the difference without knowing which is which until I closely
> inspect the jacket and find that the Chinese jacket has slash pockets
> concealed at the seam, a feature I wish the MIL spec jacket had.

By Chinese copy, you mean one from Airborne Leather, right? If so,
anyone should be able to tell at a glance that it's not a mil-spec
jacket. The biggest diffence (aside from the slash pockets) is the
cheap lambskin being used in the Chinese version (if a leather jacket
is selling for $99, it's not quality stuff), while a military jacket
is goat or cow.

> I guess that I'm not such a snob that I'll turn my nose at a perfectly
> adequate garment that has the look of the original without the outrageous
> expense of the high end stuff worn many wannabe geeks (no inference intended).

Yes, the inference was intended bub, and you're alluding that I'm a
snob because I prefer a jacket that actually tries to copy the real
thing from 60 years ago instead of a half assed knock off made with
second rate materials. Your jacket may be adequate in your book, but
not in mine, and we'll leave it at the that before this turns into
further name name calling.

~Michael

[Michael]

Cub Driver > wrote in message >...
> On 20 Sep 2003 02:13:10 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
> >Officers do not put their hands in their pockets
>
> Not even pilots? Crikey, I have this image of the cap mashed down, the
> Lucky Strike dangling, the elbows sticking out, and the
> hands-a-pocket.

None of the AAC/AAF flight jackets had hand warmer pockets until the
B-15 at the end of the war. And from what I've heard and read it was
because of the reason Art listed. The powers that be didn't want their
men standing around with their hands in their pockets. Looked sloppy
(and you were ill prepared to salute). Plus if you think about it,
they didn't need them. They need patch pockets to carry stuff (like
cigarettes, lighters, and other survival gear ;), and if it was cold
out or they were in the air, they'd have on gloves.

~Michael

[Michael]

Cub Driver > wrote in message >...
> On 19 Sep 2003 08:11:15 -0700, (Michael) wrote:
>
> >and AN-J-4 in '42. Whether or not any of the AAC guys brought along
> >B-3s, I don't know. I've never seen a photo of anyone wearing one.
>
> Nevertheless, of 99 AVG pilots, maybe 40 were from the Army Air Corps,
> and almost all of them brought their flight jackets with them.

I don't know. I've got a buddy who's way more into the AVG than me,
and a couple years ago when he went through all the photos he had. He
found 13 or 14 AVG pilots wearing A-2s (and maybe a dozen more ground
crew and staff).

> Have you got a copy of R T Smith's Tale of a Tiger? Duke Hedman I
> believe was an army pilot; he's shown wearing a flight jacket on p.
> 166.
>
> Jim Cross p. 131
>
> Oley Olson is wearing a shearling jacket p. 180. But he was a squadron
> leader and would have qualified for a new jacket! Evidently a bunch of
> jackets came in, because there's a portrait of the 3rd Sq ground crew
> on p. 178 and most of the men are wearing those shearling-line
> jackets. They aren't shown in any of the early photographs.

Simple way to identify if it's an USN M-445 or AAC B-3.... The B-3
will have leather reinforcing most of the way down the sleeves, the
M-445 will have diamond shaped reinforcing just at the elbow. The
M-445 will have two button patch pockets on the front, the B-3 will
have one open slash pocket/pouch on the front right. A friend of mine
says he's seen photos of two AVG guys wearing B-3s so some did make it
there.

> Here's an interesting one: p. 339. Standing on left is Erik Shilling,
> late of this newsgroup, wearing a jacket that is distinctly different
> from the others. Perhaps it is brown? It appears to have no fuzzy
> collar. Standing beside him is Oley Olson (who may just possibly have
> his hands in his pants pocket, Art :) wearing a black? jacket with a
> moulton? collar, which is what most of the others are wearing. Olson
> and Shilling are both army pilots. Seated left to right are R T Smith,
> army, same jacket as Olson; Jernstedt, marines, a cloth jacket?; then
> Prescott, Laughlin, and Reed, all wearing the Olson-type jacket.
>
> Anyone got this book & care to comment?

I don't have the book you mention, but I'm familiar with photo you are
refrencing. Shilling has on an A-2 (that is a much lighter brown than
the other jackets), and all the rest of the guys with leather jackets
on are wearing M-422s (they have the fur collar and are so dark of
brown they look black in color photos). Look through your photos,
you'll find the vast majority of AVG pilots (regardless of previous
service) wearing the fur collared USN M-422, though the AAC A-2 was
around. R.T. Smith appears in many photos wearing his M-422.

~Michael

[Corey C. Jordan]

On 20 Sep 2003 07:31:34 -0700, (Michael) wrote:

>By Chinese copy, you mean one from Airborne Leather, right? If so,
>anyone should be able to tell at a glance that it's not a mil-spec
>jacket. The biggest diffence (aside from the slash pockets) is the
>cheap lambskin being used in the Chinese version (if a leather jacket
>is selling for $99, it's not quality stuff), while a military jacket
>is goat or cow.

Both of my Airborne Leathers jackets are cowhide, same thickness as
the MIL spec jacket, but the leather is a bit more stiff and it
lacks the brightness of finish of my well-worn issue jacket.

>> I guess that I'm not such a snob that I'll turn my nose at a perfectly
>> adequate garment that has the look of the original without the outrageous
>> expense of the high end stuff worn many wannabe geeks (no inference intended).
>
>Yes, the inference was intended bub, and you're alluding that I'm a
>snob because I prefer a jacket that actually tries to copy the real
>thing from 60 years ago instead of a half assed knock off made with
>second rate materials. Your jacket may be adequate in your book, but
>not in mine, and we'll leave it at the that before this turns into
>further name name calling.
>
>~Michael

LOLOLOL

Michael, if I intended to begin name calling, you would know it, believe me.

I was referring to the guys who show up at air shows driving a leased Porsche in

$1,000 leather jackets with patches indicating some former affiliation with a
active duty flying unit. I actually saw some geek with two GTMO patches on
his goatskin G-1. When I asked about his tour there he began a remarkably lame
bull**** story about how dangerous it was down there, blah, blah, blah. It was
obvious to me that he got all of his information from watching a "Few Good Men",
'cause he lacked clue one of reality (I did two tours in GTMO flying SAR). When
taken to task for being a second rate impostor, he was highly indignant, and
refused to apologize for being a liar. That's the type of wannabe I was
referring to, those guys who find the risk associated with day-trading to be
enough for their delicate constitutions.

By the way Michael, what do you drive? LOLOLOL!!! Just teasing!

Seriously, If I want exacting authenticity, I wear my issue G-1 (just replaced
the worn-out sleeve cuffs) with my units patches and velcro name tag.

Now if you prefer the expensive copies, fine, it's your party. However,
be advised that absolutely no one will give a damn how accurate it is.

My regards,

Widewing (C.C. Jordan)
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
http://www.netaces.org
http://www.hitechcreations.com

[Cub Driver]

>>jacket. The biggest diffence (aside from the slash pockets) is the
>>cheap lambskin being used in the Chinese version (if a leather jacket
>>is selling for $99, it's not quality stuff), while a military jacket
>>is goat or cow.

Isn't shearling by definition lambskin? By the spring of 1942, the
majority of AVGs were wearing shearling jackets, as in the 3rd Sq
ground crew photo I mentioned.
>
>Both of my Airborne Leathers jackets are cowhide, same thickness as
>the MIL spec jacket, but the leather is a bit more stiff and it
>lacks the brightness of finish of my well-worn issue jacket.

Sounds good to me.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Michael]

Cub Driver > wrote in message >...
> >>jacket. The biggest diffence (aside from the slash pockets) is the
> >>cheap lambskin being used in the Chinese version (if a leather jacket
> >>is selling for $99, it's not quality stuff), while a military jacket
> >>is goat or cow.
>
> Isn't shearling by definition lambskin? By the spring of 1942, the
> majority of AVGs were wearing shearling jackets, as in the 3rd Sq
> ground crew photo I mentioned.

Yes, shearling is sheep or lambskin, and the B-3, B-6, D-1, M-444 and
M-445 were made out of sheepskin. The A-2 and M422/G-1 were not. The
A-2 was horse, goat or cow and the M-422 was goat.

~Michael

[Michael]

(Corey C. Jordan) wrote in message >...
> On 20 Sep 2003 07:31:34 -0700, (Michael) wrote:
>
> >By Chinese copy, you mean one from Airborne Leather, right? If so,
> >anyone should be able to tell at a glance that it's not a mil-spec
> >jacket. The biggest diffence (aside from the slash pockets) is the
> >cheap lambskin being used in the Chinese version (if a leather jacket
> >is selling for $99, it's not quality stuff), while a military jacket
> >is goat or cow.
>
> Both of my Airborne Leathers jackets are cowhide, same thickness as
> the MIL spec jacket, but the leather is a bit more stiff and it
> lacks the brightness of finish of my well-worn issue jacket.

Well, according to their website, their standard A-2 and G-1 are made
out of "nappa leather" meaning sheep or lambskin meant for use in
glove making. Did you request jackets made out of cow?

> Michael, if I intended to begin name calling, you would know it, believe me.
>
> I was referring to the guys who show up at air shows driving a leased Porsche in
>
> $1,000 leather jackets with patches indicating some former affiliation with a
> active duty flying unit. I actually saw some geek with two GTMO patches on
> his goatskin G-1. When I asked about his tour there he began a remarkably lame
> bull**** story about how dangerous it was down there, blah, blah, blah. It was
> obvious to me that he got all of his information from watching a "Few Good Men",
> 'cause he lacked clue one of reality (I did two tours in GTMO flying SAR). When
> taken to task for being a second rate impostor, he was highly indignant, and
> refused to apologize for being a liar. That's the type of wannabe I was
> referring to, those guys who find the risk associated with day-trading to be
> enough for their delicate constitutions.
>
> By the way Michael, what do you drive? LOLOLOL!!! Just teasing!

A Pontiac Grand Prix, so no, no Porsche. Though I do I have some
$1000 jackets. Sorry.

> Seriously, If I want exacting authenticity, I wear my issue G-1 (just replaced
> the worn-out sleeve cuffs) with my units patches and velcro name tag.
>
> Now if you prefer the expensive copies, fine, it's your party. However,
> be advised that absolutely no one will give a damn how accurate it is.

I'd don't expect them to know or care how accurate it is. It's only
important to me.

~Michael

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
>From: (Michael)
>Date: 9/22/03 6:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <e9a6fbc9.0309220531.40881ea7@p

>> Now if you prefer the expensive copies, fine, it's your party. However,
>> be advised that absolutely no one will give a damn how accurate it is.
>
>I'd don't expect them to know or care how accurate it is. It's only
>important to me.
>
>~Michael

Get the US Wings jacket. 100% authentic. They make then for the Air force.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
>From: Cub Driver
>Date: 9/22/03 2:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>>>jacket. The biggest diffence (aside from the slash pockets) is the
>>>cheap lambskin being used in the Chinese version (if a leather jacket
>>>is selling for $99, it's not quality stuff), while a military jacket
>>>is goat or cow.
>
>Isn't shearling by definition lambskin? By the spring of 1942, the
>majority of AVGs were wearing shearling jackets, as in the 3rd Sq
>ground crew photo I mentioned.
>>
>>Both of my Airborne Leathers jackets are cowhide, same thickness as
>>the MIL spec jacket, but the leather is a bit more stiff and it
>>lacks the brightness of finish of my well-worn issue jacket.
>
>Sounds good to me.
>
>all the best -- Dan Ford
>email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9
>
>see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
>and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com


Anybody remember the designation of those big sheepskin lined winter flying
suites we wore? I wish I still had mine. (sigh)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Corey C. Jordan]

On 22 Sep 2003 06:31:07 -0700, (Michael) wrote:

(Corey C. Jordan) wrote in message >...
>> On 20 Sep 2003 07:31:34 -0700, (Michael) wrote:

>Well, according to their website, their standard A-2 and G-1 are made
>out of "nappa leather" meaning sheep or lambskin meant for use in
>glove making. Did you request jackets made out of cow?

That's a good point Michael, the labels in my jackets (three years old now)
say Genuine Cowhide Leather. It appears that they have switched to Nappa
somewhere along the way. Probably to keep cost down. Nappa is commonly used in
fashion leathers and is quite comfortable and reasonably durable.

Isn't Nappa full-grain lambskin or sheepskin? U.S. Wings offers quite a few
lambskin G-1s and A-2s. Is there a difference beyond semantics?

My regards,

Widewing (C.C. Jordan)
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
http://www.netaces.org
http://www.hitechcreations.com

[Andrew Chaplin]

"Paul J. Adam" > wrote in message
...
> In message >, ArtKramr
> > writes
> >Officers do not put their hands in their pockets
>
> Do they get Other Ranks to it for them? :)

I don't know about UK forces but, in the CF, having your hands in your
pockets is referred to as "wearing American gloves", and in the bad old
days was a way to earn about 30 push-ups, or an all-expenses paid trip
around the parade square at the double with your rifle over your head.

In the really bad old days, officers had swagger sticks, ashplants and
riding crops that reduced their desire to put their hands in their
pockets.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

[Michael]

(ArtKramr) wrote in message >...
> >Subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
> >From: Cub Driver
> >Date: 9/22/03 2:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >>>jacket. The biggest diffence (aside from the slash pockets) is the
> >>>cheap lambskin being used in the Chinese version (if a leather jacket
> >>>is selling for $99, it's not quality stuff), while a military jacket
> >>>is goat or cow.
> >
> >Isn't shearling by definition lambskin? By the spring of 1942, the
> >majority of AVGs were wearing shearling jackets, as in the 3rd Sq
> >ground crew photo I mentioned.
> >>
> >>Both of my Airborne Leathers jackets are cowhide, same thickness as
> >>the MIL spec jacket, but the leather is a bit more stiff and it
> >>lacks the brightness of finish of my well-worn issue jacket.
> >
> >Sounds good to me.
> >
> >all the best -- Dan Ford
> >email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9
> >
> >see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
> >and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com
>
>
> Anybody remember the designation of those big sheepskin lined winter flying
> suites we wore? I wish I still had mine. (sigh)

The B-6 was the intermediate weight sheepskin jacket and the B-3 and
AN-J-4 were the heavy weight sheepskin jackets. What clothing (and
how many layers) did you usually wear on missions? From the photos
I've seen, it doesn't look like the B-26s crews wore a ton of clothes
or were issued electric flight suits or sheepskin (very often).

~Michael

[Michael]

(Corey C. Jordan) wrote in message >...
> On 22 Sep 2003 06:31:07 -0700, (Michael) wrote:
>
> (Corey C. Jordan) wrote in message >...
> >> On 20 Sep 2003 07:31:34 -0700, (Michael) wrote:
>
> >Well, according to their website, their standard A-2 and G-1 are made
> >out of "nappa leather" meaning sheep or lambskin meant for use in
> >glove making. Did you request jackets made out of cow?
>
> That's a good point Michael, the labels in my jackets (three years old now)
> say Genuine Cowhide Leather. It appears that they have switched to Nappa
> somewhere along the way. Probably to keep cost down. Nappa is commonly used in
> fashion leathers and is quite comfortable and reasonably durable.
>
> Isn't Nappa full-grain lambskin or sheepskin? U.S. Wings offers quite a few
> lambskin G-1s and A-2s. Is there a difference beyond semantics?

It's not going to be as strong or take the abuse of the leathers that
were specified by the military for their jackets.

~Michael

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
>From: (Michael)
>Date: 9/22/03 5:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >

>The B-6 was the intermediate weight sheepskin jacket and the B-3 and
>AN-J-4 were the heavy weight sheepskin jackets. What clothing (and
>how many layers) did you usually wear on missions?

For winter flying we were issued elecric suits, heavy sheepskin jackets and bib
pants and quileted long johns as well as 4 pairs of gloves

>From the photos
>I've seen, it doesn't look like the B-26s crews wore a ton of clothes
>or were issued electric flight suits or sheepskin (very often).
>
>~Michael

Very often? I am not sure what you mean by very often?



..
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Michael]

(ArtKramr) wrote in message >...
> >Subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
> >From: (Michael)
> >Date: 9/22/03 5:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
>
> >The B-6 was the intermediate weight sheepskin jacket and the B-3 and
> >AN-J-4 were the heavy weight sheepskin jackets. What clothing (and
> >how many layers) did you usually wear on missions?
>
> For winter flying we were issued elecric suits, heavy sheepskin jackets and bib
> pants and quileted long johns as well as 4 pairs of gloves
>
> >From the photos
> >I've seen, it doesn't look like the B-26s crews wore a ton of clothes
> >or were issued electric flight suits or sheepskin (very often).
> >
> >~Michael
>
> Very often? I am not sure what you mean by very often?

Sorry for the confusion. I'm assuming since there is little
photographic evidence of sheepskin jackets being used by B-26 crews,
that they weren't something the entire group of aircrew was outfitted
with. That's what I meant by not "very often".

So how did it work? Was every flyer in your group issued a heavy
sheepskin jacket? And would they have gotten it stateside before they
shipped out or when they arrived at their assigned group? It seems
like an A-2 or B-10 jacket or B-11 parka over a flight suit and wool
uniform was the most common outfit worn by B-26 crews, even during the
winter.

~Michael

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
>From: (Michael)
>Date: 9/23/03 7:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time

>So how did it work? Was every flyer in your group issued a heavy
>sheepskin jacket? And would they have gotten it stateside before they
>shipped out or when they arrived at their assigned group? It seems
>like an A-2 or B-10 jacket or B-11 parka over a flight suit and wool
>uniform was the most common outfit worn by B-26 crews, even during the
>winter.
>
>~Michael


Every flier in the group was issued sheepskin pants and jacket, quilted long
Johns, electric suit and 4 pairs of gloves. They were issued to us in England.
The clothing you describe would only be worn in summer. And we were never
issued a parka of any kind. It would have been useless. Imagine a chute harness
over a parka for example. During the bitter record setting winter of 1944 (
Battle of the Bulge) we flew in the sheepskins and after the missions we kept
them on and slept in them to keep from freezing. The electric suits were of
limited use since if it was really cold on the ground you couldn't bail out in
an elctric suit. You would freeze to death. Also the electric suits had "hot
spots" in them. After a while they would burn under the armpits and behind the
knees and elbows and they had to be turned off until those areas cooled. And by
the time they cooled the rest of you was shivering. So you would fly missions
in an electric suit turning it on and off and on and off all the way out and
back.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Michael]

(ArtKramr) wrote in message >...
> Every flier in the group was issued sheepskin pants and jacket, quilted long
> Johns, electric suit and 4 pairs of gloves. They were issued to us in England.

Thanks for the info. It's interesting (at least to me) to hear about
stuff like this. I've heard of guys getting all new gear before they
ship out, and guys getting equiped when they reach their theatre. I
guess there was no set system of who would get what, when or where.

> The clothing you describe would only be worn in summer. And we were never
> issued a parka of any kind. It would have been useless. Imagine a chute harness over a parka for example.

I've seen photos and the harness fits over them. I'm sure they would
have been a pain, but they did issue B-7, B-9 & B-11 parkas to aircrew
for flight use. The B-11 got lots of use later in the war, and was
issued to everyone from glider pilots to heavy bomber crews.

> During the bitter record setting winter of 1944 (
> Battle of the Bulge) we flew in the sheepskins and after the missions we kept
> them on and slept in them to keep from freezing.

I can only imagine how harsh the conditions were. Did you ever get
warm? I had a great uncle in the 101st during the Battle of the
Bulge. Unfortunately he died before I was born so I never got to hear
of his experiences.

> The electric suits were of
> limited use since if it was really cold on the ground you couldn't bail out in
> an elctric suit. You would freeze to death. Also the electric suits had "hot
> spots" in them. After a while they would burn under the armpits and behind the
> knees and elbows and they had to be turned off until those areas cooled. And by
> the time they cooled the rest of you was shivering. So you would fly missions
> in an electric suit turning it on and off and on and off all the way out and
> back.

Do you know what type you were issued? Your comments echo exactly
those I've heard and read about the one piece F-1 blue bunny suits.
Sometimes they wouldn't work at all and other times they'd burn you.
They were better left off and just used as another layer of clothing.
The two piece F-3 suit supposedly fixed those problems of hot spots,
breaking wires, etc. and was worn under the B-10/A-9 combo to protect
you if the electric suit failed or you bailed out. Seems like heavy
bomber crews just about always wore an F-3 suit from late summer '44
onward and they were used extensively during the Korean War too by
Invader and B-29 crews.

Thank you for taking the time to discuss this stuff with me. I really
appreciate it. If I could bother you with one other question which
I've always wonder about (but nothing is ever written)... what was
life like between missions? i.e. What responsibilities would aircrew
have between missions? What did they do to fill up the day when they
weren't flying?

Thanks,

~Michael

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
>From: (Michael)
>Date: 9/23/03 7:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <e9a6fbc9.0309231826.6513df5

>Thank you for taking the time to discuss this stuff with me. I really
>appreciate it.

My pleasure. Ask away. Oh and I forgot to mention the big fat heavy sheepskin
flying boots that we wore all that winter.I was never so cold in my life before
or since.

If I could bother you with one other question which
>I've always wonder about (but nothing is ever written)... what was
>life like between missions? i.e. What responsibilities would aircrew
>have between missions? What did they do to fill up the day when they
>weren't flying?
>
>Thanks,
>
>~Michael

Michael go to my website and read a story called " THE RAIN AT PONTOISE" to get
an idea what it was like when we weren't flying.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Michael]

(ArtKramr) wrote in message >...
> >Subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
> >From: (Michael)
> >Date: 9/23/03 7:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <e9a6fbc9.0309231826.6513df5
>
> >Thank you for taking the time to discuss this stuff with me. I really
> >appreciate it.
>
> My pleasure. Ask away. Oh and I forgot to mention the big fat heavy sheepskin
> flying boots that we wore all that winter.

Yeah, the A-6s. Did you wear just the boots themselves, or were they
big enough to be worn over a pair of shoes?

>Michael go to my website and read a story called " THE RAIN AT
PONTOISE" to get
>an idea what it was like when we weren't flying.

So on non-flying days (rain or shine) aircrews were pretty much left
to find whatever to occupy their time?

Thanks,

~Michael

[Cub Driver]

>Yeah, the A-6s. Did you wear just the boots themselves, or were they
>big enough to be worn over a pair of shoes?

Ah, that takes me back! In basic training I was issued a pair of
overshoes (galoshes, if you prefer) so large that when I walked they
never left the ground.

In the interest of the Company's rank in the climactic Speed March, we
wore the galoshes all day, every day.

Mine never left the ground, or more accurately: mud.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
>From: Cub Driver
>Date: 9/30/03 2:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <15jinvk4e04p44ult8tiln4fielnhoefrk

>Yeah, the A-6s. Did you wear just the boots themselves, or were they
>>big enough to be worn over a pair of shoes?

We wore those big sheepskin lined winter flight boots over regular boots. If
you didn't the boots would snap off when your chute opened and you would land
barefoot in the winter snow.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[[email protected]]

(ArtKramr) wrote:

>>Subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
>>From: Cub Driver
>>Date: 9/30/03 2:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>>Message-id: <15jinvk4e04p44ult8tiln4fielnhoefrk
>
>>Yeah, the A-6s. Did you wear just the boots themselves, or were they
>>>big enough to be worn over a pair of shoes?
>
>We wore those big sheepskin lined winter flight boots over regular boots. If
>you didn't the boots would snap off when your chute opened and you would land
>barefoot in the winter snow.
>
>Arthur Kramer

Our 'winter flying boots' were fleece lined, leather topped with
a rubber 'foot part'. They were large enough to wear over boots
and were great in Canada's arctic in winter, where it gets cold
enough to freeze the balls off'n a brass bedstead.
--

-Gord.