RIP Edward Teller

[Dave Kearton]

From Rec.Humor.Funny, talk about topical



Edward Teller, the ultra-hawkish father of the hydrogen bomb, died
earlier this week. Defending his work in an interview with Scientific
American a few years back, Teller averred that if the U.S. had not
developed the H-bomb, we'd all be speaking Russian now. The interviewer
refrained from pointing out that had we pursued most of Teller's other
nuclear programs by now, we'd all be speaking cockroach.

--
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This joke's link: http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/03/Sep/teller.html



Dave Kearton

[Aerophotos]

hooray the most evil person ever to exist in the world is now dead :)

Dave Kearton wrote:
>
> From Rec.Humor.Funny, talk about topical
>
> Edward Teller, the ultra-hawkish father of the hydrogen bomb, died
> earlier this week. Defending his work in an interview with Scientific
> American a few years back, Teller averred that if the U.S. had not
> developed the H-bomb, we'd all be speaking Russian now. The interviewer
> refrained from pointing out that had we pursued most of Teller's other
> nuclear programs by now, we'd all be speaking cockroach.
>
> --
> Selected by Jim Griffith. MAIL your joke (jokes ONLY) to
> .
> If you see a problem with an RHF posting, reply to the poster please,
> not to us. Ask the poster to forward comments back to us if this is
> necessary.
> For the full RHF guidelines, see http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/
>
> This joke's link: http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/03/Sep/teller.html
>
> Dave Kearton

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: RIP Edward Teller
>From: Aerophotos
>Date: 9/12/03 7:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time

>hooray the most evil person ever to exist in the world is now dead :)

He could have stayed in Germany and given Hitler the atom bomb. Be thankful for
little things.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Yeff]

On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 12:54:50 +1000, Aerophotos wrote:

> hooray the most evil person ever to exist in the world is now dead :)

Steve Irwin is dead? I didn't even know he was sick!

-Jeff B.
yeff at erols dot com

[Gordon]

How many people did Teller kill, as opposed to say, Idi Amin or Stalin?


Gordon

[Regnirps]

Pretty smart guy. Thy said it was impossibe to make an X-Ray LASER (XASER? or
gamma ray LASER, GRAZER) till he showed then how.

-- Charlie Springer

[tscottme]

Gordon > wrote in message
...
> How many people did Teller kill, as opposed to say, Idi Amin or
Stalin?
>
>
> Gordon

I'd say a few million people fewer than Kalashnikov or Stalin, Mao,
Hitler, Pol Pot.

Thank God Teller was working for us rather than against us.

--

Scott
--------
"the Arabs should remember that they invaded and occupied important
parts of Europe hundreds of years before the Crusades wars. "
Zuheir Abdallah-columnist for the London-based Arabic daily Al-Hayat
http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD55103

[Dave Kearton]

"tscottme" > wrote in message
...
> Gordon > wrote in message
> ...
> > How many people did Teller kill, as opposed to say, Idi Amin or
> Stalin?
> >
> >
> > Gordon
>
> I'd say a few million people fewer than Kalashnikov or Stalin, Mao,
> Hitler, Pol Pot.
>
> Thank God Teller was working for us rather than against us.
>
> --
>
> Scott



That's all very nice, now how do we get JGG to defect ?





Cheers


Dave Kearton

[B2431]

>From: (Gordon)
>Date: 9/12/2003 11:26 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>How many people did Teller kill, as opposed to say, Idi Amin or Stalin?
>
>
>Gordon
>
I am sure you know many U. S. servicemen and a few civilians near atmospheric
tests radiation poisoning and various cancers. Many of the affected have since
died.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[Aerophotos]

fallout from thermonuclear testing is all we need to say .. the deadly
cancer after effect has killed many more people then hitler stalin etc
and other ever did in the world

Gordon wrote:
>
> How many people did Teller kill, as opposed to say, Idi Amin or Stalin?
>
> Gordon

--

[Dave Kearton]

> Gordon wrote:
> >
> > How many people did Teller kill, as opposed to say, Idi Amin or Stalin?
> >
> > Gordon
>
> --
"Aerophotos" > wrote in message
...
> fallout from thermonuclear testing is all we need to say .. the deadly
> cancer after effect has killed many more people then hitler stalin etc
> and other ever did in the world
>


.....and let's not get started on that *******, Henry Ford.





Cheers


Dave Kearton

[David Bromage]

B2431 wrote:
> I am sure you know many U. S. servicemen and a few civilians near
atmospheric
> tests radiation poisoning and various cancers. Many of the affected
have since
> died.

True, but who is the actual killer - the person who makes the bullet or
the person who pulls the trigger?

Cheers
David

[Aerophotos]

hint for you keato

everything we uses kills us.. even the APCs you drove in the late 70s...

but unfortunately the nuclear weapons can eliminate everything in a
instant...like american cities...

pity the us decided to invent the weapon... i still prefer the ole shoot
outs of the pre nuke days..

like in that us invaded ****ry called iraq where americans are dying in
their hundreds still.. absolute cracker i think.. fools volunteer so
their CinC can have arabs kill them yet the Cinc is a war dodger himself
... sets a great precident hey

i really wonder if the us was bluffing in the cold war.. they wouldnt
of survived a nuclear war, let alone conventional...they are shown
everytime since vietnam that they cant hold their own ground, they
require world assistance.. so much for fighting the european meance...

check six









Dave Kearton wrote:
>
> > Gordon wrote:
> > >
> > > How many people did Teller kill, as opposed to say, Idi Amin or Stalin?
> > >
> > > Gordon
> >
> > --
> "Aerophotos" > wrote in message
> ...
> > fallout from thermonuclear testing is all we need to say .. the deadly
> > cancer after effect has killed many more people then hitler stalin etc
> > and other ever did in the world
> >
>
> ....and let's not get started on that *******, Henry Ford.
>
> Cheers
>
> Dave Kearton

[Aerophotos]

davo

the us military industry wouldnt care less, it makes weapons, after that
there is sales support service and mega profits, and then their is the
perosn who pulls or pushes the trigger...

all are guilty.. even i will if we have to use the raaf for another
invasion somewhere soon...hopefully someone will remove the rogue leader
howard from office quick smart before that happens.

but least i aint a american who actually thinks killing other is like a
sport and fun..in america your actually encouraged to kill people
....how? buy a gun... learn to shoot.. pretty bizzare



David Bromage wrote:
>
> B2431 wrote:
> > I am sure you know many U. S. servicemen and a few civilians near
> atmospheric
> > tests radiation poisoning and various cancers. Many of the affected
> have since
> > died.
>
> True, but who is the actual killer - the person who makes the bullet or
> the person who pulls the trigger?
>
> Cheers
> David

[Dave Kearton]

"Aerophotos" > wrote in message
...
> hint for you keato
>
> everything we uses kills us.. even the APCs you drove in the late 70s...
>


Hmmm there's a problem there. I used a toaster this morning, will
that kill me or will it be the APC that I drove in the '70s ?


....and the TV has been looking at me strangely .....


.....and I've never really trusted that hairdryer, it's the wife's.



> but unfortunately the nuclear weapons can eliminate everything in a
> instant...like american cities...
>



Can, but so far haven't. They've also prevented smaller wars from
escalating to the global, conventional conflicts that you seem to prefer.




> pity the us decided to invent the weapon... i still prefer the ole shoot
> outs of the pre nuke days..
>



Yes, weren't they fun ?




> like in that us invaded ****ry called iraq where americans are dying in
> their hundreds still.. absolute cracker i think.. fools volunteer so
> their CinC can have arabs kill them yet the Cinc is a war dodger himself
> .. sets a great precident hey
>




....but Jolly, Iraqis were dying in their thousands before, maybe with a
little co-operation we can bring peace and security, not only to Iraq but
to the whole Middle East. That doesn't mean invading every country
there, maybe only the ONES THAT HAVE IGNORED 12 YEARS OF SANCTIONS.




> i really wonder if the us was bluffing in the cold war.. they wouldnt
> of survived a nuclear war, let alone conventional...they are shown
> everytime since vietnam that they cant hold their own ground, they
> require world assistance.. so much for fighting the european meance...
>


Nobody would have survived a nuclear war, what's new there ?



The European menace ? Who are they ?

Last time I saw, Europe and the US were allies.






> check six
>


Personalities ?




Cheers


Dave Kearton




>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dave Kearton wrote:
> >
> > > Gordon wrote:
> > > >
> > > > How many people did Teller kill, as opposed to say, Idi Amin or
Stalin?
> > > >
> > > > Gordon
> > >
> > > --
> > "Aerophotos" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > fallout from thermonuclear testing is all we need to say .. the deadly
> > > cancer after effect has killed many more people then hitler stalin etc
> > > and other ever did in the world
> > >
> >
> > ....and let's not get started on that *******, Henry Ford.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Dave Kearton

[B2431]

>From: David Bromage
>Date: 9/13/2003 3:28 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>B2431 wrote:
> > I am sure you know many U. S. servicemen and a few civilians near
>atmospheric
> > tests radiation poisoning and various cancers. Many of the affected
>have since
> > died.
>
>True, but who is the actual killer - the person who makes the bullet or
>the person who pulls the trigger?
>
>Cheers
>David
>
>
Unfortunately for the dead Teller insisted on lots of tests. Many of his peers,
besides the ones from Manhatten Project who later opposed building the
thermonuclear devices after they had seen in Japan, have said too many tests
were done on his direction. Long before the Atmospheric Test Ban Treaty the
actual effects of the bombs were well documented. All that was left to do was
make smaller and more efficient bombs. These were done after the ban.

My theory is he was just like a lot of people in the business and liked to see
the explosions. I know I would have liked to have seen one.

Your analogy is correct that the end user was responsible, I don't hold him
resposible for designing it, but I do hold him responsible for excess testing.

The bombs did need to be built, many of the tests did need to be done, but just
how many?

Maybe we need to do an above ground detonation occassionally so people can see
what they are actually afraid of.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>Subject: Re: RIP Edward Teller
>From: Aerophotos
>Date: 9/13/2003 3:35 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
<snip>

>pity the us decided to invent the weapon... i still prefer the ole shoot
>outs of the pre nuke days..

The Soviets were going to make nukes regardless of whether anyone else has.
Their spies in the Manhatten Project just speeded their project a few years.
Instead of rebuilding after WW2 Stalin let his people continue to suffer and
spent money much needed buy the people on his atomic and missile programs. At
the time the U.S. detonated the first H-bomb the Soviets were well on their way
to building theirs.

Would you feel any better if they or the French had built them first?

>like in that us invaded ****ry called iraq where americans are dying in
>their hundreds still.. absolute cracker i think.. fools volunteer so
>their CinC can have arabs kill them yet the Cinc is a war dodger himself
>.. sets a great precident hey

Bush didn't duck the draft, he volunteered and went into the Air National Guard
which IS military.

> i really wonder if the us was bluffing in the cold war.. they wouldnt
>of survived a nuclear war, let alone conventional...they are shown
>everytime since vietnam that they cant hold their own ground, they
>require world assistance.. so much for fighting the european meance...
>
>check six
>

Check your own back yard. Go look at the nuke holes and crater glass.

Now about your geography lessons, the Soviet Union was Asian, not European. The
East European members of the Warsaw Pact were simply a buffer zone.

Dan, U. S. Air Force

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: RIP Edward Teller
>From: (B2431)
>Date: 9/13/03 12:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >

>I am sure you know many U. S. servicemen and a few civilians near atmospheric
>tests radiation poisoning and various cancers. Many of the affected have
>since
>died.
>
>Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired
>

But that was joint operation of the US Government and the atomic energy
commision. You can't blame Teller for that.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: RIP Edward Teller
>From: "tscottme"
>Date: 9/13/03 12:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Gordon > wrote in message
...
>> How many people did Teller kill, as opposed to say, Idi Amin or
>Stalin?
>>
>>
>> Gordon
>
>I'd say a few million people fewer than Kalashnikov or Stalin, Mao,
>Hitler, Pol Pot.
>
>Thank God Teller was working for us rather than against us.
>
>--
>
>Scott

I remember attending a lecture by Teller at The New School in NY in the 50's.
The lecture was on Theory of Relativity. To this day I can remember the last
line of the lecture. After going through the complexities of the theory he
finsihed with, " Zee trupple mit science fiction ist das es ist tzu
unimaginatif". And he was right.






Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[John Carrier]

Teller wasn't one of the major players in the Manhattan project. I doubt
his presence in Germany would have materially effected a half-hearted effort
to achieve the bomb. His fatherhood of the H-bomb is somewhat exaggerated.
Certainly he was a big proponent of the weapon, but it was Hans Ulam who
figured out the concepts that made the bomb practical and scaleable. When
Teller and his group splintered off from Los Alamos to develop weapons to
his theoretical designs, the results were not spectacular.

R / John

> He could have stayed in Germany and given Hitler the atom bomb. Be
thankful for
> little things.

[Mike Beede]

In article >, Aerophotos > wrote:

> hooray the most evil person ever to exist in the world is now dead :)

I'm impressed. I've never seen anyone post posthumously before.

Mike

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: RIP Edward Teller
>From: "John Carrier"
>Date: 9/13/03 4:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time

>Teller wasn't one of the major players in the Manhattan project. I doubt
>his presence in Germany would have materially effected a half-hearted effort
>to achieve the bomb. His

You doubt? Is that strong enough to risk it? What if you are wrong, which you
must admit is a possibility. And if you are wrong, we would all be speaking
echt deutch heute.

..


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Chris Mark]

>From:

>Unfortunately for the dead Teller insisted on lots of tests. Many of his
>peers,
>besides the ones from Manhatten Project who later opposed building the
>thermonuclear devices after they had seen in Japan, have said too many tests

The US has conducted more nuclear tests than any other country, 300 or so more
than the (f)SU. A table listing totals by year and country is at:

http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/nudb/datab15.asp

I was surprised to see how many nukes the French have fired off, more than
double the total of the Brits and Chinese combined.


Chris Mark

[Vaughn]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: RIP Edward Teller
> >From: "John Carrier"
> >Date: 9/13/03 4:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>
> >Teller wasn't one of the major players in the Manhattan project. I doubt
> >his presence in Germany would have materially effected a half-hearted
effort
> >to achieve the bomb. His
>
> You doubt? Is that strong enough to risk it? What if you are wrong, which
you
> must admit is a possibility. And if you are wrong, we would all be
speaking
> echt deutch heute.

Playing "what if" with history is a game for idiots and for those with
lots of idle time on their hands, but even If Germany had had all of the
USA's nuclear scientists, they still did not have the industrial capacity to
pull off the job in a reasonable time. As it was, the USA barely managed to
field a couple of weapons before the war was over.

Vaughn

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: RIP Edward Teller
>From: "Vaughn"
>Date: 9/13/03 9:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: RIP Edward Teller
>> >From: "John Carrier"
>> >Date: 9/13/03 4:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>>
>> >Teller wasn't one of the major players in the Manhattan project. I doubt
>> >his presence in Germany would have materially effected a half-hearted
>effort
>> >to achieve the bomb. His
>>
>> You doubt? Is that strong enough to risk it? What if you are wrong, which
>you
>> must admit is a possibility. And if you are wrong, we would all be
>speaking
>> echt deutch heute.
>
> Playing "what if" with history is a game for idiots and for those with
>lots of idle time on their hands, but even If Germany had had all of the
>USA's nuclear scientists, they still did not have the industrial capacity to
>pull off the job in a reasonable time. As it was, the USA barely managed to
>field a couple of weapons before the war was over.
>
>Vaughn
>
>
>

That's as good a guess as any. I am glad Teller came to our side.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[WDA]

Actually it was Hitler who was the long pole in the tent. He did not even
put Germany on a wartime footing until 1943, Plus he arbitrarily changed
missions and development programs, such as insisting the Me-263 be a ground
support fighter bomber instead of a B-17/B-24 interceptor.

WDA

end

"Vaughn" > wrote in message
...
>
> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >Subject: Re: RIP Edward Teller
> > >From: "John Carrier"
> > >Date: 9/13/03 4:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time
> >
> > >Teller wasn't one of the major players in the Manhattan project. I
doubt
> > >his presence in Germany would have materially effected a half-hearted
> effort
> > >to achieve the bomb. His
> >
> > You doubt? Is that strong enough to risk it? What if you are wrong,
which
> you
> > must admit is a possibility. And if you are wrong, we would all be
> speaking
> > echt deutch heute.
>
> Playing "what if" with history is a game for idiots and for those
with
> lots of idle time on their hands, but even If Germany had had all of the
> USA's nuclear scientists, they still did not have the industrial capacity
to
> pull off the job in a reasonable time. As it was, the USA barely managed
to
> field a couple of weapons before the war was over.
>
> Vaughn
>
>

[Chad Irby]

In article >,
Aerophotos > wrote:

> fallout from thermonuclear testing is all we need to say .. the deadly
> cancer after effect has killed many more people then hitler stalin etc
> and other ever did in the world

Not really. Some people have squeezed and tortured the numbers to try
and suggest this, but looking at cancer numbers downwind of the Nevada
Test Site doen't show that much of an indication.

Radiation exposure is not linear in effects at low doses, apparently.

--


Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

[Alan Minyard]

On 13 Sep 2003 07:34:39 GMT, (B2431) wrote:

>>From: (Gordon)
>>Date: 9/12/2003 11:26 PM Central Daylight Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>How many people did Teller kill, as opposed to say, Idi Amin or Stalin?
>>
>>
>>Gordon
>>
>I am sure you know many U. S. servicemen and a few civilians near atmospheric
>tests radiation poisoning and various cancers. Many of the affected have since
>died.
>
>Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

Well, since they would be at least 70 years old by now, I suppose a
lot of them have died.

Al Minyard

[Leadfoot]

"Yeff" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 12:54:50 +1000, Aerophotos wrote:
>
> > hooray the most evil person ever to exist in the world is now dead :)
>
> Steve Irwin is dead? I didn't even know he was sick!


Mr T took care of him

http://tinyurl.com/n967


>
> -Jeff B.
> yeff at erols dot com

[John Carrier]

> >Teller wasn't one of the major players in the Manhattan project. I doubt
> >his presence in Germany would have materially effected a half-hearted
effort
> >to achieve the bomb. His
>
> You doubt? Is that strong enough to risk it? What if you are wrong, which
you
> must admit is a possibility. And if you are wrong, we would all be
speaking
> echt deutch heute.

Considering the overwhelming intellectual and industrial effort made to
develop the bomb, the movement of one mind (not a particularly critical one
at that) would have had no material effect on either a US (delayed) or
German (advanced) ability to develop the bomb. So I'll retract my original
statement. His presence in Germany (vice the USA) would have had no
material impact on their ability to develop an atomic weapon. Similarly his
absence wouldn't have been a show-stopper for the Manhattan project.

Germany and Japan had not expended enough effort in research to even begin
to develop an appreciation for the commitment required for a weapon's
development. Neither had the industrial or economic capacity to construct
the plants required to enrich uranium or generate plutonium WHILE
simultaneously supporting the war effort with conventional weapons
manufacture. Add the reality of the harassing effect of strategic bombing,
and it was even more hopeless.

Germany had an outstanding group of theoretical physicists. They had access
to a limited amount of uranium ore. Never the less, they did not succeed in
producing a sustained nuclear reaction by war's end (we did it in 1942 at U
of Chicago).

We WERE concerned that Germany had a bomb program. We directed missions to
hamper it (bombed heavy water production plants). When we got the right
people on the ground in Germany, we were amazed by their lack of progress.

Needless to say, this is hindsight. Things looked a lot different with
Great Britain on the edge and the Pacific Fleet battle line resting in the
Pearl Harbor mud.

R / John

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: RIP Edward Teller
>From: "John Carrier"
>Date: 9/13/03 1:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time

> >Teller wasn't one of the major players in the Manhattan project. I doubt
>> >his presence in Germany would have materially effected a half-hearted
>effort

Well, it would have been Teller plus Heisenburg working side by side. You seem
to know the outcome of that combination for sure. I am not so sure, But I
guess we'll never know for sure. will we?

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[B2431]

>From: "WDA"
>Date: 9/13/2003 1:10 PM Central

<snip>

>Actually it was Hitler who was the long pole in the tent. He did not even
>put Germany on a wartime footing until 1943, Plus he arbitrarily changed
>missions and development programs, such as insisting the Me-263 be a ground
>support fighter bomber instead of a B-17/B-24 interceptor.
>
>WDA

Me-262

In hind sight it looks like Hitler was one of our better allies with all the
stupid mistakes he made. All sides made mistakes, but his were sure to make him
lose.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

Dan, U.S.Air Force, retired

[Sunny]

"Aerophotos" > wrote in message
...
> all are guilty.. even i will if we have to use the raaf for another
> invasion somewhere soon...hopefully someone will remove the rogue leader
> howard from office quick smart before that happens.

Are you sure you have enlisted in the RAAF dickwit?

>fallout from thermonuclear testing is all we need to say .. the deadly
>cancer after effect has killed many more people then hitler stalin etc
>and other ever did in the world

Bought that clue yet? rag head apologist.

[B2431]

>From: (Chris Mark)
<snip>

>The US has conducted more nuclear tests than any other country, 300 or so
>more
>than the (f)SU. A table listing totals by year and country is at:
>
>http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/nudb/datab15.asp
>
>I was surprised to see how many nukes the French have fired off, more than
>double the total of the Brits and Chinese combined.
>
>
>Chris Mark
>
Interesting chart, but one above ground test is omitted. A satellite detected a
South African test back when they had a program. For the life of me I can't
recall where I read about it.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[Chad Irby]

In article >,
"John Carrier" > wrote:

> Germany had an outstanding group of theoretical physicists. They had access
> to a limited amount of uranium ore. Never the less, they did not succeed in
> producing a sustained nuclear reaction by war's end (we did it in 1942 at U
> of Chicago).

The big problem for the German program was Heisenberg. Before the war,
he'd calculated some fission cross-sections incorractly, and apparently
never recalculated them. He thought the mass for a chain reaction was
something on the order of forty *tons*. If he'd had a somewhat smaller
ego, he might have done some recalculation of his assumptions and gotten
it right.

Even after the war, he insisted that the Americans hadn't actually built
a uranium fission bomb until he was shown the correct cross-section
calculations.

--


Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

[Chad Irby]

In article >,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

> Well, it would have been Teller plus Heisenburg working side by side.
> You seem to know the outcome of that combination for sure. I am not
> so sure, But I guess we'll never know for sure. will we?

I dunno.

Considering the epic nature of Heisenberg's ego, and having met Teller
once about 30 years back, my big prediction would have been a fast chain
reaction and blood on the floor...

--


Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

[John R Weiss]

"ArtKramr" > wrote...
>
> Well, it would have been Teller plus Heisenburg working side by side.

The outcome would have been uncertain in any case, though... ;-)

[Chad Irby]

(B2431) wrote:

> >From: (Chris Mark)
>
> >http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/nudb/datab15.asp
>
> Interesting chart, but one above ground test is omitted. A satellite
> detected a South African test back when they had a program. For the
> life of me I can't recall where I read about it.

<http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Safrica/Vela.html>

The overall site is much more fascinating:

<http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/>

--


Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

[Autocollimator]

>Subject: Re: RIP Edward Teller
>From: Chad Irby
>Date: 9/13/03 5:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >,
> "John Carrier" > wrote:
>
>> Germany had an outstanding group of theoretical physicists. They had
>access
>> to a limited amount of uranium ore. Never the less, they did not succeed
>in
>> producing a sustained nuclear reaction by war's end (we did it in 1942 at U
>> of Chicago).
>
>The big problem for the German program was Heisenberg. Before the war,
>he'd calculated some fission cross-sections incorractly, and apparently
>never recalculated them. He thought the mass for a chain reaction was
>something on the order of forty *tons*. If he'd had a somewhat smaller
>ego, he might have done some recalculation of his assumptions and gotten
>it right.
>
>Even after the war, he insisted that the Americans hadn't actually built
>a uranium fission bomb until he was shown the correct cross-section
>calculations.
>
>--

>
>Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
>Slam on brakes accordingly.
>

There is a rather extensive body of thought that maintains that Heisenburg was
deliberately obstructionist.

[IBM]

(ArtKramr) wrote in
:

>>Subject: Re: RIP Edward Teller
>>From: "John Carrier"
>>Date: 9/13/03 1:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>
>> >Teller wasn't one of the major players in the Manhattan project. I
>> >doubt
>>> >his presence in Germany would have materially effected a
>>> >half-hearted
>>effort
>
> Well, it would have been Teller plus Heisenburg working side by side.
> You seem to know the outcome of that combination for sure. I am not so
> sure, But I guess we'll never know for sure. will we?

Lets see.
Heisenbergs monstrous ego.
Teller, Hungarian, not noted for suffering fools gladly, carries big
honkin' stick.
Yeah, on the whole I'd rather be juggling expired dynamite.

IBM


__________________________________________________ ____________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - FAST UNLIMITED DOWNLOAD - http://www.uncensored-news.com
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[Chad Irby]

(Autocollimator) wrote:

> >From: Chad Irby

> >The big problem for the German program was Heisenberg. Before the war,
> >he'd calculated some fission cross-sections incorractly, and apparently
> >never recalculated them. He thought the mass for a chain reaction was
> >something on the order of forty *tons*. If he'd had a somewhat smaller
> >ego, he might have done some recalculation of his assumptions and gotten
> >it right.
> >
> >Even after the war, he insisted that the Americans hadn't actually built
> >a uranium fission bomb until he was shown the correct cross-section
> >calculations.
>
> There is a rather extensive body of thought that maintains that
> Heisenburg was deliberately obstructionist.

I've also heard that some of the lesser lights among his staff fed him
"confirmed" numbers that went in the wrong direction.

Heisenberg was a known patriot, though he wasn't a Nazi by any stretch.

Once he realized what the end product could do, he might have done the
sabotage himself, though (it was a very small calculation error,
overall).

--


Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: RIP Edward Teller
>From: Chad Irby
>Date: 9/13/03 6:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
(Autocollimator) wrote:
>
>> >From: Chad Irby
>
>> >The big problem for the German program was Heisenberg. Before the war,
>> >he'd calculated some fission cross-sections incorractly, and apparently
>> >never recalculated them. He thought the mass for a chain reaction was
>> >something on the order of forty *tons*. If he'd had a somewhat smaller
>> >ego, he might have done some recalculation of his assumptions and gotten
>> >it right.
>> >
>> >Even after the war, he insisted that the Americans hadn't actually built
>> >a uranium fission bomb until he was shown the correct cross-section
>> >calculations.
>>
>> There is a rather extensive body of thought that maintains that
>> Heisenburg was deliberately obstructionist.
>
>I've also heard that some of the lesser lights among his staff fed him
>"confirmed" numbers that went in the wrong direction.
>
>Heisenberg was a known patriot, though he wasn't a Nazi by any stretch.
>
>Once he realized what the end product could do, he might have done the
>sabotage himself, though (it was a very small calculation error,
>overall).
..

Large enough not to get the job done.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Autocollimator]

>Subject: Re: RIP Edward Teller
>From: IBM
>Date: 9/13/03 6:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote in
:
>
>>>Subject: Re: RIP Edward Teller
>>>From: "John Carrier"
>>>Date: 9/13/03 1:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>>
>>> >Teller wasn't one of the major players in the Manhattan project. I
>>> >doubt
>>>> >his presence in Germany would have materially effected a
>>>> >half-hearted
>>>effort
>>
>> Well, it would have been Teller plus Heisenburg working side by side.
>> You seem to know the outcome of that combination for sure. I am not so
>> sure, But I guess we'll never know for sure. will we?
>
> Lets see.
> Heisenbergs monstrous ego.
> Teller, Hungarian, not noted for suffering fools gladly, carries big
> honkin' stick.
> Yeah, on the whole I'd rather be juggling expired dynamite.
>
> IBM
>

Conjecture based on bias.

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
"John Carrier" > wrote:

> Teller wasn't one of the major players in the Manhattan project. I doubt
> his presence in Germany would have materially effected a half-hearted effort
> to achieve the bomb. His fatherhood of the H-bomb is somewhat exaggerated.
> Certainly he was a big proponent of the weapon, but it was Hans Ulam who
> figured out the concepts that made the bomb practical and scaleable. When
> Teller and his group splintered off from Los Alamos to develop weapons to
> his theoretical designs, the results were not spectacular.

Teller spent a lot of time being annoyed at journalists and
others who referred to him as the "father of the H-bomb".

I suspect he'd not argue with you.

[Chad Irby]

(ArtKramr) wrote:

> >From: Chad Irby :
>
> >Heisenberg was a known patriot, though he wasn't a Nazi by any stretch.
> >
> >Once he realized what the end product could do, he might have done the
> >sabotage himself, though (it was a very small calculation error,
> >overall).
>
> Large enough not to get the job done.

That's the problem when you're talking about events that take place in
nanometer scale or smaller. Very small errors give very big differences.

--


Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

[Chad Irby]

(Autocollimator) wrote:

> >From: IBM
> > Lets see.
> > Heisenbergs monstrous ego.
> > Teller, Hungarian, not noted for suffering fools gladly, carries big
> > honkin' stick.
> > Yeah, on the whole I'd rather be juggling expired dynamite.
>
> Conjecture based on bias.

Not a lot of conjecture, and if it's bias, it's bias based on pretty
much every opinion ever uttered on either man.

--


Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: RIP Edward Teller
>From: Chad Irby
>Date: 9/13/03 11:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>> >From: Chad Irby :
>>
>> >Heisenberg was a known patriot, though he wasn't a Nazi by any stretch.
>> >
>> >Once he realized what the end product could do, he might have done the
>> >sabotage himself, though (it was a very small calculation error,
>> >overall).
>>
>> Large enough not to get the job done.
>
>That's the problem when you're talking about events that take place in
>nanometer scale or smaller. Very small errors give very big differences.
>
Ah chaos theory rears its ugly head.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Thomas Schoene]

"Autocollimator" > wrote in message


> There is a rather extensive body of thought that maintains that
> Heisenburg was deliberately obstructionist.

There is an equally vocal faction, bolstered recently by letters from Niels
Bohr, that says Heisenberg was working full-out on the project and simply
wasn't able to deliver.

See, for instance:
http://physicsweb.org/article/news/6/2/5

--�
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

[David Lesher]

(B2431) writes:

>>http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/nudb/datab15.asp
>>
....
>Interesting chart, but one above ground test is omitted. A satellite detected a
>South African test back when they had a program. For the life of me I can't
>recall where I read about it.

That one may or may not have existed. There was some evidence it was a joint
South African/Israeli project, and other evidence the bird was just seeing
lightning.

I've read nothing new on it in years.

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[David Lesher]

I'm surprised that no one here has mentioned his promotion
of Star Wars to Ronnie.

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Gordon]

>such as insisting the Me-263 be a ground
>support fighter bomber instead of a B-17/B-24 interceptor.
>

obvious typo - 262 was the jet fighter, 263 was a prototype follow-on a/c to
the 163 rocket fighter.

G

[B2431]

>From: Chad Irby

<snip>

>The big problem for the German program was Heisenberg. Before the war,
>he'd calculated some fission cross-sections incorractly, and apparently
>never recalculated them. He thought the mass for a chain reaction was
>something on the order of forty *tons*.

<snip>



OK, we know the bombs didn't need 40 tons of either uranium or plutonium.

Given the size and weight of Fatman or Littleboy type bombs just what would the
Germans, let alone the Japanese, have used to deliver them? Other than by
submarine or surface vessel I can't imagine how they would have been able to.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[Guy Alcala]

B2431 wrote:

> >From: Chad Irby
>
> <snip>
>
> >The big problem for the German program was Heisenberg. Before the war,
> >he'd calculated some fission cross-sections incorractly, and apparently
> >never recalculated them. He thought the mass for a chain reaction was
> >something on the order of forty *tons*.
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
> OK, we know the bombs didn't need 40 tons of either uranium or plutonium.
>
> Given the size and weight of Fatman or Littleboy type bombs just what would the
> Germans, let alone the Japanese, have used to deliver them? Other than by
> submarine or surface vessel I can't imagine how they would have been able to.

Fat Man (for certain) and Little Boy (I think) were much heavier than they had to
be, because their casings were constructed out of thick armor steel to prevent them
from being damaged by flak etc. IIRR, without the thick steel armor the bombs
would have weighed somewhere in the 3-5,000 lb. range. IIRC, the thick steel also
improved the yield slightly by increasing the containment for some fraction of a
second longer, but probably not enough to matter. If the Germans had been willing
to do without that protection (as we were with later weapons), then they almost
certainly could have delivered Little Boy; Fat Man would have presented space
problems, but they might have been able to modify an He-177 or similar. I don't
know how big the bomb bay of the He-177 was, or its arrangement.

Guy

[Chad Irby]

In article >,
(B2431) wrote:

> OK, we know the bombs didn't need 40 tons of either uranium or plutonium.
>
> Given the size and weight of Fatman or Littleboy type bombs just what
> would the Germans, let alone the Japanese, have used to deliver them?
> Other than by submarine or surface vessel I can't imagine how they
> would have been able to.

They had some very interesting bombers on the drawing boards that they
never built because they didn't have a mission for them. They could
have stuck one on one of their big seaplanes and refueled it in
mid-Atlantic (they did something similar to get planes to South America
from Africa) for a one-way trip, though.

Dornier had a huge seaplane (the Do 214) that could have made the trip
with a *very* big bomb, but design work was discontinued in 1943 because
they didn't have anything worth hauling across the Atlantic.

Focke-Wulf was working on the FW 238, which could have carried a 12000
pound bomb load across the Atlantic, and might have made it back.
Germany cancelled all heavy bomber work before they got much past design
work, but it would have been ready by 1944 if the Germans knew they had
a nuke to drop.

Given the motivation, it's pretty obvious that the Nazis could have made
something to get a city-killing bomb across the Atlantic. At the very
least, they could have gotten several across the Channel... and one or
two nukes in June of 1944 would have ruined the Allied offensive after
D-day.

--


Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

[Mark Schaeffer]

Teller was not German, but a Hungarian Jew. He fled from the facists
ruling Hungary in 1926, at age of 17. He obtained his Ph.D. in Germany
in 1930 and wrote many papers on quantum mechanics there. No atomic
bomb work, as the fission reaction was then still unknown. Once the
Nazis took over, he knew he had to get out ASAP. He left around
1935.

So, Teller was long gone by the time nuclear fission was discovered
(1939), and it's most unlikely he'd have told the Nazis how to make a bomb.

This is from Richard Rhodes' book, "The Making of the Atomic Bomb."

Mark

ArtKramr wrote:
>>Subject: Re: RIP Edward Teller
>>From: Aerophotos
>>Date: 9/12/03 7:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>
>
>>hooray the most evil person ever to exist in the world is now dead :)
>
>
> He could have stayed in Germany and given Hitler the atom bomb. Be thankful for
> little things.
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

[Mark Schaeffer]

"Teller took his Ph.D. under Heisenberg at Leipzig in 1930..."

Richard Rhodes, "The Making of the Atomic Bomb"

Chad Irby wrote:
> In article >,
> (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>
>>Well, it would have been Teller plus Heisenburg working side by side.
>>You seem to know the outcome of that combination for sure. I am not
>>so sure, But I guess we'll never know for sure. will we?
>
>
> I dunno.
>
> Considering the epic nature of Heisenberg's ego, and having met Teller
> once about 30 years back, my big prediction would have been a fast chain
> reaction and blood on the floor...
>