Usefulness of Oil Analysis

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

From those that use it, I'm interested in the usefulness of starting an
oil analysis program on a big bore Continental that already has 850 SMOH
and 450 STOH on an 1100 TBO. Does it take so long to establish a
baseline and trend that it would be better to wait until OH or can an
individual engine be compared to the class as a whole?


-----------------------------------------
Kindest regards,
James A. (Jim) Carter, ANS #8215
Rogers, Arkansas

Anyone can do the job when things are going right. In this business we
play for keeps.
- Ernest K. Gann

[[email protected]]

Oil analysis is a very usefull tool for showing the status of the
inner workings of the motor. Your first sample will give you instant
results if there is something major failing, based on thousands of
other samples of like engines. At about the third sampling of your
perticular engine trends will develop showing the state of your
powerplant. Oil analysis is a inexpensive way to keep you safe, and at
about 15 bucks a shot a great value in aviation. Do it today....

Ben
www.haaspowerair.com

On Aug 19, 5:33 am, "Jim Carter" > wrote:
> From those that use it, I'm interested in the usefulness of starting an
> oil analysis program on a big bore Continental that already has 850 SMOH
> and 450 STOH on an 1100 TBO. Does it take so long to establish a
> baseline and trend that it would be better to wait until OH or can an
> individual engine be compared to the class as a whole?
>
> -----------------------------------------
> Kindest regards,
> James A. (Jim) Carter, ANS #8215
> Rogers, Arkansas
>
> Anyone can do the job when things are going right. In this business we
> play for keeps.
> - Ernest K. Gann

[Dave[_3_]]

Jim, I am part of the "Choir" here...

I have 2 large marine engines and one aircraft engine. (all 3 are
$$$$$)

And.....

I depend on them !!!

I have used oil analysis for 25 years,- boat, heavy trucks, and now
on the plane.

Cheap "peace of mind cost".

It WILL turn up some problems in time for a minor fix, before it
becomes a catastrophic failure.

It will take about 3 tests to set a "normal" baseline for your engine
(s). After that, sudden changes are quickly detected.

We tore down an exhaust system last week, confident the antifreeze
leak was not in the block because if it was, the coolant would have
been detected in the oil. (there was none)


It is part of knowing you have taken EVERY reasonable precaution to
insure your safety flying behind that engine.

Dave



On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 11:33:22 GMT, "Jim Carter" >
wrote:

>From those that use it, I'm interested in the usefulness of starting an
>oil analysis program on a big bore Continental that already has 850 SMOH
>and 450 STOH on an 1100 TBO. Does it take so long to establish a
>baseline and trend that it would be better to wait until OH or can an
>individual engine be compared to the class as a whole?
>
>
>-----------------------------------------
>Kindest regards,
>James A. (Jim) Carter, ANS #8215
>Rogers, Arkansas
>
>Anyone can do the job when things are going right. In this business we
>play for keeps.
>- Ernest K. Gann
>
>

[Ross]

Jim Carter wrote:
> From those that use it, I'm interested in the usefulness of starting an
> oil analysis program on a big bore Continental that already has 850 SMOH
> and 450 STOH on an 1100 TBO. Does it take so long to establish a
> baseline and trend that it would be better to wait until OH or can an
> individual engine be compared to the class as a whole?
>
>
> -----------------------------------------
> Kindest regards,
> James A. (Jim) Carter, ANS #8215
> Rogers, Arkansas
>
> Anyone can do the job when things are going right. In this business we
> play for keeps.
> - Ernest K. Gann
>
>
>
When I bought my airplane I started an oil analysis program right away.
I had about 400 hours to go to TBO. ( I was going to go longer, but that
is another story). Then I changed engines and continued the program. I
use Metal Check and get the kits right from the factory. They even now
put the results on the web and can show trend analysis. Something I was
doing on Excel originally.


--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[Robert M. Gary]

On Aug 19, 4:33 am, "Jim Carter" > wrote:
> From those that use it, I'm interested in the usefulness of starting an
> oil analysis program on a big bore Continental that already has 850 SMOH
> and 450 STOH on an 1100 TBO. Does it take so long to establish a
> baseline and trend that it would be better to wait until OH or can an
> individual engine be compared to the class as a whole?

If I hadn't been doing an oil analysis I wouldnt have known to look
for a busted up piston pin plug.

-Robert

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ross ]
> Posted At: Monday, August 20, 2007 10:40 AM
> Posted To: rec.aviation.owning
> Conversation: Usefulness of Oil Analysis
> Subject: Re: Usefulness of Oil Analysis
>
....I
> use Metal Check and get the kits right from the factory. They even now
> put the results on the web and can show trend analysis. Something I
was
> doing on Excel originally.
>
>
> --
>
> Regards, Ross
> C-172F 180HP
> KSWI

How about a URL or contact info. www.metalcheck.com apparently isn't the
right place.

[Dave[_1_]]

Hi Jim!

I use...

Staveley Services

935 Sunshine Road
Kansas City KS 66115-1122

(800) 332-8055


http://www.staveleyfa.com/public/FLhome.asp



....Formally CTC..

I get the "spectrochemical analysis"' done each oil change.

Davce






On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 11:12:14 -0700, Jim Stewart >
wrote:

>Dave wrote:
>> Jim, I am part of the "Choir" here...
>>
>> I have 2 large marine engines and one aircraft engine. (all 3 are
>> $$$$$)
>>
>> And.....
>>
>> I depend on them !!!
>
>Who do you use for your aircraft engine?

[Ross]

Jim Carter wrote:
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Ross ]
>>Posted At: Monday, August 20, 2007 10:40 AM
>>Posted To: rec.aviation.owning
>>Conversation: Usefulness of Oil Analysis
>>Subject: Re: Usefulness of Oil Analysis
>>
>
> ...I
>
>>use Metal Check and get the kits right from the factory. They even now
>>put the results on the web and can show trend analysis. Something I
>
> was
>
>>doing on Excel originally.
>>
>>
>>--
>>
>>Regards, Ross
>>C-172F 180HP
>>KSWI
>
>
> How about a URL or contact info. www.metalcheck.com apparently isn't the
> right place.
>

Sorry about that. http://www.avlab.com/default.asp

It is from Aviation Labs.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[Jim Stewart]

Dave wrote:
> Jim, I am part of the "Choir" here...
>
> I have 2 large marine engines and one aircraft engine. (all 3 are
> $$$$$)
>
> And.....
>
> I depend on them !!!

Who do you use for your aircraft engine?

[me[_1_]]

Robert,

For educational purposes could you please describe all of the indications
that helped you pinpoint the problem you found..


"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Aug 19, 4:33 am, "Jim Carter" > wrote:
>> From those that use it, I'm interested in the usefulness of starting an
>> oil analysis program on a big bore Continental that already has 850 SMOH
>> and 450 STOH on an 1100 TBO. Does it take so long to establish a
>> baseline and trend that it would be better to wait until OH or can an
>> individual engine be compared to the class as a whole?
>
> If I hadn't been doing an oil analysis I wouldnt have known to look
> for a busted up piston pin plug.
>
> -Robert
>
>

[Greg Copeland]

On Aug 19, 6:33 am, "Jim Carter" > wrote:
> From those that use it, I'm interested in the usefulness of starting an
> oil analysis program on a big bore Continental that already has 850 SMOH
> and 450 STOH on an 1100 TBO. Does it take so long to establish a
> baseline and trend that it would be better to wait until OH or can an
> individual engine be compared to the class as a whole?
>

Anyone that says oil analysis is anything other than a trending
device, should be ignored. It is difficult to say how many samples
you need to establish a trend. It depends a lot on flying habits,
weather, environmental factors, oil, consistency of operation. During
summer months, where higher operating temps are to be expected, the
analysis may show different results. Likewise, cold winter months may
too show variation. You may even observe slight variance from sample
to sample. The larger the sample base, the better off you'll be to
determine variance. From what I've read, in some cases, statistical
analysis is required to truly separate the sample to sample variance
from the actual noteworthy deviation.

Of course, the above is ignoring serious problems which can show
themselves prior to catastrophic component failure.

Oil analysis has little down side and is an excellent tool to detect
early problems. Just don't expect a couple of samples to necessarily
establish a reliable baseline; then again, I guess it depends on the
margin of error you're willing to accept too.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Aug 21, 7:58 pm, "me" > wrote:
> Robert,
>
> For educational purposes could you please describe all of the indications
> that helped you pinpoint the problem you found..

Mostly it was Blackstone calling me telling me to check for a broken
pin plug. Any professional oil analysis will come with professional
evaluation of your data. The main indicator for me was progressively
higher AL in the oil.
[
-Robert

[Denny]

>
> Mostly it was Blackstone calling me telling me to check for a broken
> pin plug. Any professional oil analysis will come with professional
> evaluation of your data. The main indicator for me was progressively
> higher AL in the oil.
> [
> -Robert


How about just laying your eyes on the filter at every oil change -
then washing the filter in solvent, filtering the particulates out of
the solvent, and saving them in a plasticine envelope for comparison
to the next change(s)...
Total cost about 2 bucks an oil change - 1 quart of solvent and 1 Mr.
Coffee filter...

And the quart of filtered solvent can be re-used for cleaning the
landing gear...

denny

[Montblack]

("Denny" wrote)
> And the quart of filtered solvent can be re-used for cleaning the landing
> gear...


And the Mr. Coffee filter?


Montblack

[Robert M. Gary]

On Sep 26, 4:46 am, Denny > wrote:
> > Mostly it was Blackstone calling me telling me to check for a broken
> > pin plug. Any professional oil analysis will come with professional
> > evaluation of your data. The main indicator for me was progressively
> > higher AL in the oil.
> > [
> > -Robert
>
> How about just laying your eyes on the filter at every oil change -
> then washing the filter in solvent, filtering the particulates out of
> the solvent, and saving them in a plasticine envelope for comparison
> to the next change(s)...
> Total cost about 2 bucks an oil change - 1 quart of solvent and 1 Mr.
> Coffee filter...
>
> And the quart of filtered solvent can be re-used for cleaning the
> landing gear...
>
> denny

I never saw anything in the filter until the AL got very high. The oil
analysis was showing progressively higher AL for about 2 years before
that. Sadly, it did not tell me which cylinder so I ended up having to
do a boroscope every 2-6 months to watch for indications of wear. In
the end I started pumping oil in the bad cylinder which finally told
me which to pull. I really didn't want to spend $5K to have all
cylinders pulled searching for the issue.

-Robert

[Ray Andraka]

Montblack wrote:
> ("Denny" wrote)
>
>>And the quart of filtered solvent can be re-used for cleaning the landing
>>gear...
>
>
>
> And the Mr. Coffee filter?
>
>
> Montblack
>
>

Donate it to the FBO for their next pot of coffee. It is probably
better than the one used to make todays pot :grin:

[Montblack]

("Ray Andraka" wrote)
> Donate it to the FBO for their next pot of coffee. It is probably better
> than the one used to make todays pot :grin:


Ray, how's the flying, out your way, been this fall - wet?


Montblack

[Ray Andraka]

Montblack wrote:
> ("Ray Andraka" wrote)
>
>>Donate it to the FBO for their next pot of coffee. It is probably better
>>than the one used to make todays pot :grin:
>
>
>
> Ray, how's the flying, out your way, been this fall - wet?
>
>
> Montblack
>
>
>
No, not wet enough actually. It's been some great VFR flying though. I
still need to get that air-gizmo installed for the 496 I got at OSH.

[Jay Honeck]

> No, not wet enough actually. It's been some great VFR flying though. I
> still need to get that air-gizmo installed for the 496 I got at OSH.

Sounds like a great excuse to come see us, Ray! We'll set up the
installation at KALO, and you spend a couple of days in a hot tub...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ray Andraka]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>No, not wet enough actually. It's been some great VFR flying though. I
>>still need to get that air-gizmo installed for the 496 I got at OSH.
>
>
> Sounds like a great excuse to come see us, Ray! We'll set up the
> installation at KALO, and you spend a couple of days in a hot tub...
>
> ;-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>


My A&P seems to be willing to sign it off if I do the work. It's mostly
a matter of finding a free weekend. This weekend looks like it will be
partly spend rebuilding my front strut *again*. I went out to the plane
today to find the nose wheel sitting in a puddle of M1506 and the strut
completely collapsed. Seems to be about an annual occurrence. There's
no pitting on the strut, and we can't see anything that is causing the
seal to roll, but roll it does. This time, I'll probably do the whole
thing while my A&P works on his hot rod.

[Denny]

On Sep 26, 1:36 pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> On Sep 26, 4:46 am, Denny > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Mostly it was Blackstone calling me telling me to check for a broken
> > > pin plug. Any professional oil analysis will come with professional
> > > evaluation of your data. The main indicator for me was progressively
> > > higher AL in the oil.
> > > [
> > > -Robert
>
> > How about just laying your eyes on the filter at every oil change -
> > then washing the filter in solvent, filtering the particulates out of
> > the solvent, and saving them in a plasticine envelope for comparison
> > to the next change(s)...
> > Total cost about 2 bucks an oil change - 1 quart of solvent and 1 Mr.
> > Coffee filter...
>
> > And the quart of filtered solvent can be re-used for cleaning the
> > landing gear...
>
> > denny
>
> I never saw anything in the filter until the AL got very high. The oil
> analysis was showing progressively higher AL for about 2 years before
> that. Sadly, it did not tell me which cylinder so I ended up having to
> do a boroscope every 2-6 months to watch for indications of wear. In
> the end I started pumping oil in the bad cylinder which finally told
> me which to pull. I really didn't want to spend $5K to have all
> cylinders pulled searching for the issue.
>
> -Robert- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Well, my bias is showing and your tale supports it... Knowing there
was rising Aluminium in the analysis accomplished nothing... You still
waited until it was showing in the filter and a cylinder finally
started pumping oil... I suppose somewhere there is a story that
analysis saved an engine from incipient failure and probably saved
lives... But, I'll take my chances the same way I have done for over
50 years of flying...

My old mechanic/FBO demanded that his customers use oil analysis every
50 hours or go somewhere else... I wound up going somewhere else...
The reason was that his own fleet of 9 aircraft were not on
analysis... When I challenged him on this he said that analysis never
showed anything that he didn't already know or suspect based upon
seeing, smelling, listening, and knowing his engine... I said what
was sauce for the goose was sauce for the gander.. He said it
wasn't... I moved on...

denny