Other than JPI, who else is there?

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

Other than the JPI EDM line of engine analyzers, what other
manufacturers are out there with good, reliable, full featured products
for a big bore Continental?


-----------------------------------------
Kindest regards,
James A. (Jim) Carter, ANS #8215
Rogers, Arkansas

Anyone can do the job when things are going right. In this business we
play for keeps.
- Ernest K. Gann

[Bob Noel]

In article <000f01c7e25a$7191c0e0$4b01a8c0@omnibook6100>,
"Jim Carter" > wrote:

> Other than the JPI EDM line of engine analyzers, what other
> manufacturers are out there with good, reliable, full featured products
> for a big bore Continental?

What about the Insight family of graphic engine monitors?

http://www.insightavionics.com/gemseries.htm

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

Thanks Bob. I even see where their model 610 is STC'd like I need it.

I read a lot here about the JPI products, but not many talk about the
Insight GEMs. Are the owners just a quiet bunch, or are these not very
popular?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Noel ]
> Posted At: Sunday, August 19, 2007 7:26 AM
> Posted To: rec.aviation.owning
> Conversation: Other than JPI, who else is there?
> Subject: Re: Other than JPI, who else is there?
>
> In article <000f01c7e25a$7191c0e0$4b01a8c0@omnibook6100>,
> "Jim Carter" > wrote:
>
> > Other than the JPI EDM line of engine analyzers, what other
> > manufacturers are out there with good, reliable, full featured
products
> > for a big bore Continental?
>
> What about the Insight family of graphic engine monitors?
>
> http://www.insightavionics.com/gemseries.htm
>
> --
> Bob Noel
> (goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Newps]

Jim Carter wrote:

> Other than the JPI EDM line of engine analyzers, what other
> manufacturers are out there with good, reliable, full featured products
> for a big bore Continental?


You couldn't give me a JPI. An unbelievably poor attitude toward its
customers. You want Electronics International.

[Tri-Pacer]

">
>
> You couldn't give me a JPI. An unbelievably poor attitude toward its
> customers. You want Electronics International.

I second that EI has wonderful customer support.

Paul
N1431A
KPLU

[Bob Noel]

In article <001501c7e266$142eee30$4b01a8c0@omnibook6100>,
"Jim Carter" > wrote:

> I read a lot here about the JPI products, but not many talk about the
> Insight GEMs. Are the owners just a quiet bunch, or are these not very
> popular?

Not sure. I like my GEM 602, but I only have a cherokee 140.
If I were to do it again, I'd probably go with the recording model
so that I could play with the numbers post-flight.

btw - there can be such a thing as too much information. Sometimes
ignorance is bliss. :-)

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Dennis Johnson]

"Jim Carter" > wrote in message
news:000f01c7e25a$7191c0e0$4b01a8c0@omnibook6100.. .
> Other than the JPI EDM line of engine analyzers, what other
> manufacturers are out there with good, reliable, full featured products
> for a big bore Continental?
>

I'd recommend looking at Electronics International http://www.buy-ei.com/

Their products are good and their customer support is the greatest.

Dennis

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>
> Jim Carter wrote:
>
>> Other than the JPI EDM line of engine analyzers, what other
>> manufacturers are out there with good, reliable, full featured products
>> for a big bore Continental?
>
>
> You couldn't give me a JPI. An unbelievably poor attitude toward its
> customers. You want Electronics International.

Second that.


--
Matt Barrow
Performance Homes, LLC.
Cheyenne, WY

[Paul kgyy]

>
> You couldn't give me a JPI. An unbelievably poor attitude toward its
> customers. You want Electronics International.

I've always had excellent support from JPI with my EDM700, and it's a
high quality product.

[Ray Andraka]

Paul kgyy wrote:

>>You couldn't give me a JPI. An unbelievably poor attitude toward its
>>customers. You want Electronics International.
>
>
> I've always had excellent support from JPI with my EDM700, and it's a
> high quality product.
>

Ditto. I've dealt with them 3 times now, all good.

1st, when I got the unit. I needed 6 bayonet probes not 5 bayonet and
one sparkplug type. The mechanic didn't realize that and opened and
installed the sparkplug probe. I called JPI asking about getting a
bayonet probe. They offered an exchange even though the sparkplug probe
had already been opened and installed. They didn't have to.

2nd, I bought a JPI OAT probe from another pilot who had decided to use
a different thermocouple and put it in the air inlet rather than using
the probe. I called JPI to ask about buying a harness for it, as all I
had was the probe. They sent a new harness no charge, including
overnight shipping. I was willing to buy the harness and pay shipping,
they wouldn't hear of it.

3rd, I decided to get the USB inteface upgrade for my unit. They
offered an offer I can't refuse for that plus fuel flow. Further calls
to tech support to ask about what else I needed to buy to install the
fuel flow as well as what additional holes I needed in the panel were
answered quickly, cheerfully, and as far as I can tell accurately.

I have no complaints whatsoever with JPI tech support. I'm not sure
what the hub-bub is about, but I for sure didn't get any bad support.

The product is a good product (and for a six cylinder engine has more
function than any of the competitors because 12 of the competitor's 16
available channels are used up with EGT and CHT).

[Jim Burns[_2_]]

I bought a JPI EDM 760 Twin.
I've had great tech support but lousy front office support. The girls that
answer the phones don't seem to give a *hit nor care if you're on hold for
the rest of your life, but then again that attitude seems to be more common
in every business these days.

Tech support is a totally different experience. When I was shopping, every
pre-purchase call to tech support was taken seriously and patiently while I
asked questions that ranged from the most basic to the most complex. Every
answer was given politely and thoroughly. One tech also gave me his cell
number and told me to call him when I was installing it if I had any
questions, even if it was in the evening or weekend. I will say that their
install documents are a mish-mash. They need to re-write the install and
operating manual to include all information that is spread between the
website, the tech website, the FAQs, the manuals, and the CD that ships with
the unit.

This year while at OSH I had a friend call and ask me to stop by the JPI
booth to see if they had a fuel flow transducer on hand, his 5 year old
model had problems. After a few questions about engine
make/model/application they put one in my hand for just $100 (normally
$375). They said just send the old one in, if it's a warranty problem they
would refund the $100, if not, no additional charge for the replacement.
Again, the tech guy gave me his cell number and said if I had any problem to
call night or day.

Then I mentioned that during a recent install my A&P found a EGT probe was
causing a temp bounce. He'd discovered a loose terminal ring and after he
re-crimped it, it was fine. JPI gave me a new probe and said, "Here, next
time you see him, give him this."

No complaints about the unit or it's operation.

Jim



"Ray Andraka" > wrote in message
...
> Paul kgyy wrote:
>
> >>You couldn't give me a JPI. An unbelievably poor attitude toward its
> >>customers. You want Electronics International.
> >
> >
> > I've always had excellent support from JPI with my EDM700, and it's a
> > high quality product.
> >
>
> Ditto. I've dealt with them 3 times now, all good.
>
> 1st, when I got the unit. I needed 6 bayonet probes not 5 bayonet and
> one sparkplug type. The mechanic didn't realize that and opened and
> installed the sparkplug probe. I called JPI asking about getting a
> bayonet probe. They offered an exchange even though the sparkplug probe
> had already been opened and installed. They didn't have to.
>
> 2nd, I bought a JPI OAT probe from another pilot who had decided to use
> a different thermocouple and put it in the air inlet rather than using
> the probe. I called JPI to ask about buying a harness for it, as all I
> had was the probe. They sent a new harness no charge, including
> overnight shipping. I was willing to buy the harness and pay shipping,
> they wouldn't hear of it.
>
> 3rd, I decided to get the USB inteface upgrade for my unit. They
> offered an offer I can't refuse for that plus fuel flow. Further calls
> to tech support to ask about what else I needed to buy to install the
> fuel flow as well as what additional holes I needed in the panel were
> answered quickly, cheerfully, and as far as I can tell accurately.
>
> I have no complaints whatsoever with JPI tech support. I'm not sure
> what the hub-bub is about, but I for sure didn't get any bad support.
>
> The product is a good product (and for a six cylinder engine has more
> function than any of the competitors because 12 of the competitor's 16
> available channels are used up with EGT and CHT).

[Paul kgyy]

>
> I have no complaints whatsoever with JPI tech support. I'm not sure
> what the hub-bub is about, but I for sure didn't get any bad support.
>
I think the "hubbub" came about when they decided to make their data
format proprietary. JPI had every right to do that, and they furnish
a free viewer that also saves the data in xls format, but there was
one of these multi-day 200 entry discussions on rap about heartless
they were not to listen to everybody that was happy with what they
had.

[Newps]

Paul kgyy wrote:

>>I have no complaints whatsoever with JPI tech support. I'm not sure
>>what the hub-bub is about, but I for sure didn't get any bad support.
>>
>
> I think the "hubbub" came about when they decided to make their data
> format proprietary. JPI had every right to do that, and they furnish
> a free viewer that also saves the data in xls format, but there was
> one of these multi-day 200 entry discussions on rap about heartless
> they were not to listen to everybody that was happy with what they
> had.

That's not exactly why. I was a member of the Cessna Pilots Assoc at
the time and they had one of their senior people in the company at the
time come on to the CPA forums(CPA provides free membership to industry
reps) and basically tell everybody there they didn't know their ass from
a hole in the ground. Absolutely zero skills in interacting with the
customer. It's our way or the highway. My local avionics shop, which
is one of the largest in the experimental field, will tell you the same
thing. The upper management of JPI could not possibly care less what
you think and they let you know that at every opportunity. I wouldn't
have believed what they did on the CPA forums if I didn't see it for
myself. I will never put any of their crap in my plane.

[Frank Stutzman[_2_]]

Paul kgyy > wrote:
>>
>> I have no complaints whatsoever with JPI tech support. I'm not sure
>> what the hub-bub is about, but I for sure didn't get any bad support.
>>
> I think the "hubbub" came about when they decided to make their data
> format proprietary. JPI had every right to do that, and they furnish
> a free viewer that also saves the data in xls format, but there was
> one of these multi-day 200 entry discussions on rap about heartless
> they were not to listen to everybody that was happy with what they
> had.

Actually, the bad rap that JPI has came years ago when they sued a
maker of fuel flow instruments for experimental aircraft over the name
of a product. The maker (Matronics) had something called (IIRC) "Flowscan".
JPI wanted to name their new device "Floscan" and sued the smaller company
into changing the name. It was considered an exceedingly unwarranted suit
by many.

I may have the details wrong, but thats how I remember it happening.


--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Boise, ID

[JGalban via AviationKB.com]

Newps wrote:
>
>That's not exactly why. I was a member of the Cessna Pilots Assoc at
>the time and they had one of their senior people in the company at the
>time come on to the CPA forums(CPA provides free membership to industry
>reps) and basically tell everybody there they didn't know their ass from
>a hole in the ground. Absolutely zero skills in interacting with the
>customer. It's our way or the highway. My local avionics shop, which
>is one of the largest in the experimental field, will tell you the same
>thing. The upper management of JPI could not possibly care less what
>you think and they let you know that at every opportunity. I wouldn't
>have believed what they did on the CPA forums if I didn't see it for
>myself. I will never put any of their crap in my plane.

That was back in 2005. I was in the market for an engine analyzer to go
with my new engine. When I questioned JPI tech support about their
proprietary data encoding, the response was pretty arrogant and defensive.
Basically, they told me their software would perform any function that any
other software package would do, so I shouldn't care if the data had
proprietary encoding. When I listed a few functions that EGView's software
could do that their's could not, they said they were working on adding those
functions (in other words, their original claim was a load of crap).

When I asked outright why I should not be able to choose how to analyze
the data that came from my monitor, I was told that JPI considered the data
that came from their monitor to belong to JPI. That was enough for me.

My experience with EI's customer support was exactly the opposite. I've
been flying behind my EI UBG-16 for 2 yrs./250 hrs. and couldn't be happier.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via http://www.aviationkb.com

[[email protected]]

JGalban via AviationKB.com <u32749@uwe> wrote:
: That was back in 2005. I was in the market for an engine analyzer to go
: with my new engine. When I questioned JPI tech support about their
: proprietary data encoding, the response was pretty arrogant and defensive.
: Basically, they told me their software would perform any function that any
: other software package would do, so I shouldn't care if the data had
: proprietary encoding. When I listed a few functions that EGView's software
: could do that their's could not, they said they were working on adding those
: functions (in other words, their original claim was a load of crap).

: When I asked outright why I should not be able to choose how to analyze
: the data that came from my monitor, I was told that JPI considered the data
: that came from their monitor to belong to JPI. That was enough for me.

: My experience with EI's customer support was exactly the opposite. I've
: been flying behind my EI UBG-16 for 2 yrs./250 hrs. and couldn't be happier.

: John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

Yeah, that kind of response would be enough to tell them to go f*ck themselves. Not too uncommon in the embedded
market though, sadly.

It's similar in the digital camera market as well. Many pieces of information in the EXIF and/or RAW data are
encoded via a proprietary algorithm. Some have even been encrypted. The response from the manufacturers have often been,
"That's our proprietary information and our software is enough for anyone." So they own the pictures a photographer takes?
Sounds like a load of crap to me and I won't support such companies.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Greg Copeland]

On Aug 21, 7:27 pm, wrote:

> Yeah, that kind of response would be enough to tell them to go f*ck themselves. Not too uncommon in the embedded
> market though, sadly.


The real turn off for me is JPI's constantly lying and misleading in
their marketing. They treat their customers like idiots. They act
like slimy used car salesmen. I find it insulting and unethical.
They tend to make outrageous claims and then lie that their
competitors can't do it; when in reality, they are usually playing
catchup.

If you have a choice between a known good which has a superior or
equal product (EI and probably others) and a company with a checkered
past (JPI), why not go with the known quantity. EI has an excellent
reputation and last I checked, their product was actually better than
JPI's; if only slightly.

[Greg Copeland]

On Sep 19, 4:02 pm, Greg Copeland > wrote:
> On Aug 21, 7:27 pm, wrote:
>
> > Yeah, that kind of response would be enough to tell them to go f*ck themselves. Not too uncommon in the embedded
> > market though, sadly.
>
> The real turn off for me is JPI's constantly lying and misleading in
> their marketing. They treat their customers like idiots. They act
> like slimy used car salesmen. I find it insulting and unethical.
> They tend to make outrageous claims and then lie that their
> competitors can't do it; when in reality, they are usually playing
> catchup.
>
> If you have a choice between a known good which has a superior or
> equal product (EI and probably others) and a company with a checkered
> past (JPI), why not go with the known quantity. EI has an excellent
> reputation and last I checked, their product was actually better than
> JPI's; if only slightly.

And I forgot to mention, EI is usally about 25% - 33% less than a JPI
unless you can find a deal at one of the big aviation shows.

[mikem]

One other BIG difference between EI and JPI:
JPI probes are grounded through their sheath, while EI probes are
electrically isolated from their sheath. There are large currents
that flow in the engine and airframe due to where the alternator and
battery are located, and because the airframe is used as a grounding
path. The resulting ground voltage drops create ground loops between
the various JPI probes, while EI avoids this problem by isolating
their probes. JPI installations can be very troublesome get working
properly. As a retired instrumentation engineer, dealing with low-
level analog sensing methods most of my working life, you couldn't
give me JPI system...

[Ray Andraka]

mikem wrote:

> One other BIG difference between EI and JPI:
> JPI probes are grounded through their sheath, while EI probes are
> electrically isolated from their sheath. There are large currents
> that flow in the engine and airframe due to where the alternator and
> battery are located, and because the airframe is used as a grounding
> path. The resulting ground voltage drops create ground loops between
> the various JPI probes, while EI avoids this problem by isolating
> their probes. JPI installations can be very troublesome get working
> properly. As a retired instrumentation engineer, dealing with low-
> level analog sensing methods most of my working life, you couldn't
> give me JPI system...
>

IF you follow the JPI installation instructions, including wiring the
ground to the engine block, not to the panel ground, it works fine right
out of the box. If you don't ground the instrument to the engine block
per the instructions, you'll have the problems you described.

For a 6 cylinder system, the JPI offers more functionality, as the EI
system is limited to 16 measurements, 12 of which are used for the EGTs
and CHTs on a six cylinder engine. Add oil temp, carb temp, voltage
monitor and OAT and you've used up all the spare capacity. I'm a happy
JPI customer and would buy one of their units again.