Re: Why did Iran buy F-14s instead of F-15s?

[Matt Wiser]

Hobo > wrote:
>
>My understanding is that the Shah of Iran was
>offered either the F-14 or
>F-15 in response to his complaints of Soviet
>violations of his airspace.
>Why did the Iranians choose the F-14? The F-15
>would have seemed a
>better choice for non-carrier use. The USAF
>seemed to think so.
>
>TIA
Grumann and the Navy put on an air show at Andrews AFB in 1973 for the
Shah, where he was viewing the F-15 also. The test crew broke some of the
flight rules, but impressed the Shah enough for him to order the aircraft
(not on the spot, but within days). Also, the AIM-54 was seen as a perfect
anti-Foxbat weapon, as Iran was being constantly overflown by Soviet AF MiG-25Rs
in the early and mid 1970s. Check Tom Cooper's Iran-Iraq War in the air for
more info.
(It's a good read, BTW)

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[Ed Rasimus]

On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:12:50 GMT, "Matt Wiser"
> wrote:

> Grumann and the Navy put on an air show at Andrews AFB in 1973 for the
>Shah, where he was viewing the F-15 also. The test crew broke some of the
>flight rules, but impressed the Shah enough for him to order the aircraft
>(not on the spot, but within days). Also, the AIM-54 was seen as a perfect
>anti-Foxbat weapon, as Iran was being constantly overflown by Soviet AF MiG-25Rs
>in the early and mid 1970s. Check Tom Cooper's Iran-Iraq War in the air for
>more info.
>(It's a good read, BTW)

Foxbat was a problem during the period. The F-4 community was
practicing head-on snap-up intercepts to try to counter the high
altitude/high-speed overflights. It required a near perfect head-on
run at high speed, then a pull-up to reach Rmax for the Sparrow at the
apex. Firing then gave the missile a chance to meet the target before
Rmin at the altitude. If not perfect, the missile missed. The AIM-54
clearly gave the better shot at a Foxbat.

Maybe of greater importance was the "prestige" factor for Iran. They
would be the only nation to receive this high technology system. Not
even Israel had them. It demonstrated a great confidence by the US in
both the Shah and Iran.

Interesting anecdote related to the purchase. The aircraft were to be
ferried to Iran where they were to be met and greeted by a parade of
US and Iranian high rollers. They transited Torrejon for an overnight,
then took off at dawn for the final leg, with tanker support, into
Teheran. The tankers, from the 98th Strat Wg at Torrejon, took off
about an hour earlier to be positioned down the Med for the refueling.
When the F-14s pulled up for gas, they discovered someone had failed
to note that the Toms were probe/drogue and no basket was fitted. The
-14s aborted and returned to Torrejon. The parade and dignitaries at
destination were disappointed (and embarrassed) and the DO of the 98th
was fired.

[Kevin Brooks]

Ed Rasimus > wrote in message >...
> On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:12:50 GMT, "Matt Wiser"
> > wrote:
>
> > Grumann and the Navy put on an air show at Andrews AFB in 1973 for the
> >Shah, where he was viewing the F-15 also. The test crew broke some of the
> >flight rules, but impressed the Shah enough for him to order the aircraft
> >(not on the spot, but within days). Also, the AIM-54 was seen as a perfect
> >anti-Foxbat weapon, as Iran was being constantly overflown by Soviet AF MiG-25Rs
> >in the early and mid 1970s. Check Tom Cooper's Iran-Iraq War in the air for
> >more info.
> >(It's a good read, BTW)
>
> Foxbat was a problem during the period. The F-4 community was
> practicing head-on snap-up intercepts to try to counter the high
> altitude/high-speed overflights. It required a near perfect head-on
> run at high speed, then a pull-up to reach Rmax for the Sparrow at the
> apex. Firing then gave the missile a chance to meet the target before
> Rmin at the altitude. If not perfect, the missile missed. The AIM-54
> clearly gave the better shot at a Foxbat.

ISTR reading an account of an Israeli F-4 attempting to use this
procedure (I believe the book was titled "Zanek" or something similar)
against a Foxbat, unsuccesfully.

Brooks

<snip>

[Tom Cooper]

"Hobo" > wrote in message
...
>
> My understanding is that the Shah of Iran was offered either the F-14 or
> F-15 in response to his complaints of Soviet violations of his airspace.
> Why did the Iranians choose the F-14? The F-15 would have seemed a
> better choice for non-carrier use. The USAF seemed to think so.

Usually it is said "it was the Russian MiG-25Rs", and then the USN people
will say it was the show put up by the Grumman test pilots on a "fly-out",
organized for the Shah, in November 1973.

But, it was actually neither of both.

The Iranians had a study about their future needs running already since
1970. The F-14 was a winner of this study, because of the a combination of
endurance, flexibility (high speed/low speed performance/maneuverability),
superior radar/superior long-range weapons etc. The decision actually fell
already before the USN sent its first briefer to Tehran, that was in 1972.

The more the Iranians studided the F-14 and F-15, the more they became sure
that the Tomcat was the solution they were looking for. In their opinions
(and I share these) their later experiences proved them correct beyond any
doubt: when asked, they conclude that it is silly from anybody to expect
that the Shah (or actually the IIAF, then it was the air force that made the
choice: the Shah was [mis]used by them because of his charm that was known
to "function" in the West in similar cases) to pay $2 billions, mobilize
immense assets, and influence the future of the air force for the next 30
years - because of some stunt-flying.

The MiG-25-overflights were, of course, an excellent "excuse", just like the
story about "downgraded" AWG-9s sold to the US Congress etc. In turn, this
made the USAF and the USN interested in the sale, as there was indeed an
opportunity to test the Soviet MiG-25R/RBS that were overflying Iran
(albeit, nowhere near as deep as usually explained: the Foxbats were
operating along, not beyond the Iranian borders - like US/IIAF RF-4Es were
doing).

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/title_detail.php/title=S6585

[Matt Wiser]

Ed Rasimus > wrote:
>On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:12:50 GMT, "Matt Wiser"
> wrote:
>
>> Grumann and the Navy put on an air show at
>Andrews AFB in 1973 for the
>>Shah, where he was viewing the F-15 also. The
>test crew broke some of the
>>flight rules, but impressed the Shah enough
>for him to order the aircraft
>>(not on the spot, but within days). Also, the
>AIM-54 was seen as a perfect
>>anti-Foxbat weapon, as Iran was being constantly
>overflown by Soviet AF MiG-25Rs
>>in the early and mid 1970s. Check Tom Cooper's
>Iran-Iraq War in the air for
>>more info.
>>(It's a good read, BTW)
>
>Foxbat was a problem during the period. The
>F-4 community was
>practicing head-on snap-up intercepts to try
>to counter the high
>altitude/high-speed overflights. It required
>a near perfect head-on
>run at high speed, then a pull-up to reach Rmax
>for the Sparrow at the
>apex. Firing then gave the missile a chance
>to meet the target before
>Rmin at the altitude. If not perfect, the missile
>missed. The AIM-54
>clearly gave the better shot at a Foxbat.
>
>Maybe of greater importance was the "prestige"
>factor for Iran. They
>would be the only nation to receive this high
>technology system. Not
>even Israel had them. It demonstrated a great
>confidence by the US in
>both the Shah and Iran.
>
>Interesting anecdote related to the purchase.
>The aircraft were to be
>ferried to Iran where they were to be met and
>greeted by a parade of
>US and Iranian high rollers. They transited
>Torrejon for an overnight,
>then took off at dawn for the final leg, with
>tanker support, into
>Teheran. The tankers, from the 98th Strat Wg
>at Torrejon, took off
>about an hour earlier to be positioned down
>the Med for the refueling.
>When the F-14s pulled up for gas, they discovered
>someone had failed
>to note that the Toms were probe/drogue and
>no basket was fitted. The
>-14s aborted and returned to Torrejon. The parade
>and dignitaries at
>destination were disappointed (and embarrassed)
>and the DO of the 98th
>was fired.
>
>
Regarding Iranian AF Foxbat intercepts: There was an intercept in 1977
of a MiG-25 over Iran where an F-14 crew had Phoenix lock-on and all they
needed was clearance to fire. Ivan got the message after this and a drone
shoot of BQM-34s at 60,000 feet.
No more Foxbats over Imperial Iran.
Iraqi AF MiG-25RBs were intercepted on several occasions, and a half dozen
of them fell to AIM-54s. (Again, check the Cooper book for more info)


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