Military HF communications under attack

[Gene Storey]

The FCC is full speed ahead with its BPL (Broadband over Powerline)
rule-making, and the U.S. Air Force is looking to spend billions now on
replacement communications systems, as the use of HF radio will no
longer be possible. Some studies have even predicted that interference
problems will go all the way into the aircraft VHF navigation and voice
bands. "Certainly, the end of LORAN and marine DGPS is at hand" said
William C. Brodie, Air Force Director of Communications.

FCC Commissioner Abernathy says that BPL will be "Broadband
Nirvana." The military is trained to adapt, and they will adapt to
consumer needs.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-239079A1.pdf

[Tarver Engineering]

"Gene Storey" > wrote in message
...
> The FCC is full speed ahead with its BPL (Broadband over Powerline)
> rule-making, and the U.S. Air Force is looking to spend billions now on
> replacement communications systems, as the use of HF radio will no
> longer be possible. Some studies have even predicted that interference
> problems will go all the way into the aircraft VHF navigation and voice
> bands. "Certainly, the end of LORAN and marine DGPS is at hand" said
> William C. Brodie, Air Force Director of Communications.
>
> FCC Commissioner Abernathy says that BPL will be "Broadband
> Nirvana." The military is trained to adapt, and they will adapt to
> consumer needs.
>
> http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-239079A1.pdf

I don't see the people, or the quotes you mention in the URL.

What is it you are supposed to be Storey?

[phil hunt]

On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 04:27:52 GMT, Gene Storey > wrote:
>The FCC is full speed ahead with its BPL (Broadband over Powerline)
>rule-making, and the U.S. Air Force is looking to spend billions now on
>replacement communications systems, as the use of HF radio will no
>longer be possible.

Why not?

> Some studies have even predicted that interference
>problems

What's causing the interference?

> will go all the way into the aircraft VHF navigation and voice
>bands.

Why?

>"Certainly, the end of LORAN and marine DGPS is at hand" said
>William C. Brodie, Air Force Director of Communications.

And is it?

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia

[Nigel Isherwood]

"phil hunt" > wrote in message
. ..
> On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 04:27:52 GMT, Gene Storey > wrote:
> >The FCC is full speed ahead with its BPL (Broadband over Powerline)
> >rule-making, and the U.S. Air Force is looking to spend billions now on
> >replacement communications systems, as the use of HF radio will no
> >longer be possible.
>
> Why not?
>
> > Some studies have even predicted that interference
> >problems
>
> What's causing the interference?

According to http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2003/08/08/2/?nc=1 , BRL is
using frequecies of 2 - 80 MHz (i.e. HF and sneaking into the bottom end of
VHF). I suspect that the power cables are acting as antenna.


>
> > will go all the way into the aircraft VHF navigation and voice
> >bands.
>
> Why?
>
> >"Certainly, the end of LORAN and marine DGPS is at hand" said
> >William C. Brodie, Air Force Director of Communications.
>
> And is it?
>
> --
> "It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
> people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
>
>

[Tarver Engineering]

"Nigel Isherwood" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "phil hunt" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 04:27:52 GMT, Gene Storey > wrote:
> > >The FCC is full speed ahead with its BPL (Broadband over Powerline)
> > >rule-making, and the U.S. Air Force is looking to spend billions now on
> > >replacement communications systems, as the use of HF radio will no
> > >longer be possible.
> >
> > Why not?
> >
> > > Some studies have even predicted that interference
> > >problems
> >
> > What's causing the interference?
>
> According to http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2003/08/08/2/?nc=1 , BRL is
> using frequecies of 2 - 80 MHz (i.e. HF and sneaking into the bottom end
of
> VHF). I suspect that the power cables are acting as antenna.

The lines are pretty "long" at those frequencies, to make much of an
antenna.

[Gene Storey]

"phil hunt" > wrote
> Gene Storey > wrote:
> >The FCC is full speed ahead with its BPL (Broadband over Powerline)
> >rule-making, and the U.S. Air Force is looking to spend billions now on
> >replacement communications systems, as the use of HF radio will no
> >longer be possible.
>
> Why not?

Tune your radio to 60 Hz.

After BPL 2 mHz to 80 mHz (and their harmonics) will have trash on the
whole spectrum.

[[email protected]]

"Gene Storey" > wrote:

>"phil hunt" > wrote
>> Gene Storey > wrote:
>> >The FCC is full speed ahead with its BPL (Broadband over Powerline)
>> >rule-making, and the U.S. Air Force is looking to spend billions now on
>> >replacement communications systems, as the use of HF radio will no
>> >longer be possible.
>>
>> Why not?
>
>Tune your radio to 60 Hz.
>
>After BPL 2 mHz to 80 mHz (and their harmonics) will have trash on the
>whole spectrum.
>

C'mon Gene, try to make some sense here will you?...why should
one tune to 60 Hz? (the power line freq btw). Pls do explain what
the hell you're talking about.
--

-Gord.

[Dave Holford]

" wrote:
>
> "Gene Storey" > wrote:
>
> >"phil hunt" > wrote
> >> Gene Storey > wrote:
> >> >The FCC is full speed ahead with its BPL (Broadband over Powerline)
> >> >rule-making, and the U.S. Air Force is looking to spend billions now on
> >> >replacement communications systems, as the use of HF radio will no
> >> >longer be possible.
> >>
> >> Why not?
> >
> >Tune your radio to 60 Hz.
> >
> >After BPL 2 mHz to 80 mHz (and their harmonics) will have trash on the
> >whole spectrum.
> >
>
> C'mon Gene, try to make some sense here will you?...why should
> one tune to 60 Hz? (the power line freq btw). Pls do explain what
> the hell you're talking about.
> --
>
> -Gord.


I presume he is trying to make the, valid, point that all those power
lines radiate a very nice signal at 60Hz, and by implication that they
will do the same if BPL is permitted to transmit digital data between 2
and 80MHz over the same lines.

It's late, so I'm not going to try and look it up now, but IIRC BPL has
been banned in some administrations for precisely that reason - ISTR
that Japan is one such administration.

BTW John - Long (very long) wires make excellent antennas provided that
they are at least several wavelenghts long.

Dave

[Gene Storey]

"Gord Beaman" > wrote
>
> C'mon Gene, try to make some sense here will you?...why should
> one tune to 60 Hz? (the power line freq btw). Pls do explain what
> the hell you're talking about.

The power line frequency (after BPL) will include the frequencies
2 to 80 MHz and the harmonics. I was just using 60 Hz a poor example.

WWV time signals will be wiped-out. NDB navigation sites will be
wiped out. Etc, etc. The noise floor in the 2-60 MHz band will be
significantly higher than it is now, thus requiring higher power, or a
change in operating frequency.

[Keith Willshaw]

"Gene Storey" > wrote in message
...
> "Gord Beaman" > wrote
> >
> > C'mon Gene, try to make some sense here will you?...why should
> > one tune to 60 Hz? (the power line freq btw). Pls do explain what
> > the hell you're talking about.
>
> The power line frequency (after BPL) will include the frequencies
> 2 to 80 MHz and the harmonics. I was just using 60 Hz a poor example.
>
> WWV time signals will be wiped-out. NDB navigation sites will be
> wiped out. Etc, etc. The noise floor in the 2-60 MHz band will be
> significantly higher than it is now, thus requiring higher power, or a
> change in operating frequency.
>
>

Scottish Power are already running broadband over power lines,
this doesnt seem to have wiped out HF communication
and the authorities in the UK who jealously guard radio
frequencies seem not to be over worried.

Keith

[John Keeney]

"Dave Holford" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> " wrote:
> >
> > "Gene Storey" > wrote:
> >
> > >"phil hunt" > wrote
> > >> Gene Storey > wrote:
> > >> >The FCC is full speed ahead with its BPL (Broadband over Powerline)
> > >> >rule-making, and the U.S. Air Force is looking to spend billions now
on
> > >> >replacement communications systems, as the use of HF radio will no
> > >> >longer be possible.
> > >>
> > >> Why not?
> > >
> > >Tune your radio to 60 Hz.
> > >
> > >After BPL 2 mHz to 80 mHz (and their harmonics) will have trash on the
> > >whole spectrum.
> > >
> >
> > C'mon Gene, try to make some sense here will you?...why should
> > one tune to 60 Hz? (the power line freq btw). Pls do explain what
> > the hell you're talking about.
> > --
> >
> > -Gord.
>
>
> I presume he is trying to make the, valid, point that all those power
> lines radiate a very nice signal at 60Hz, and by implication that they
> will do the same if BPL is permitted to transmit digital data between 2
> and 80MHz over the same lines.
>
> It's late, so I'm not going to try and look it up now, but IIRC BPL has
> been banned in some administrations for precisely that reason - ISTR
> that Japan is one such administration.
>
> BTW John - Long (very long) wires make excellent antennas provided that
> they are at least several wavelenghts long.

Don't they tend to be directional off the pointy end?

[Gene Storey]

"John Keeney" > wrote
>
> Don't they tend to be directional off the pointy end?

No. Electrical waves are right angles to the conductor, often shaped
like a doughnut. But it doesn't matter in the near-field, as the signal will be
everywhere.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Dave Holford" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> " wrote:
> >
> > "Gene Storey" > wrote:
> >
> > >"phil hunt" > wrote
> > >> Gene Storey > wrote:
> > >> >The FCC is full speed ahead with its BPL (Broadband over Powerline)
> > >> >rule-making, and the U.S. Air Force is looking to spend billions now
on
> > >> >replacement communications systems, as the use of HF radio will no
> > >> >longer be possible.
> > >>
> > >> Why not?
> > >
> > >Tune your radio to 60 Hz.
> > >
> > >After BPL 2 mHz to 80 mHz (and their harmonics) will have trash on the
> > >whole spectrum.
> > >
> >
> > C'mon Gene, try to make some sense here will you?...why should
> > one tune to 60 Hz? (the power line freq btw). Pls do explain what
> > the hell you're talking about.
> > --
> >
> > -Gord.
>
>
> I presume he is trying to make the, valid, point that all those power
> lines radiate a very nice signal at 60Hz, and by implication that they
> will do the same if BPL is permitted to transmit digital data between 2
> and 80MHz over the same lines.
>
> It's late, so I'm not going to try and look it up now, but IIRC BPL has
> been banned in some administrations for precisely that reason - ISTR
> that Japan is one such administration.
>
> BTW John - Long (very long) wires make excellent antennas provided that
> they are at least several wavelenghts long.

Self cancelling at a short distance, do the math.

[Larry Dighera]

On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:23:07 -0400, Dave Holford
> wrote in Message-Id:
>:

>IIRC BPL has
>been banned in some administrations for precisely that reason - ISTR
>that Japan is one such administration.

Broadband Over Powerline products are currently available in the US:
http://www.plugtek.com/cgi-bin/axhit/ax.pl?http://powerlinestore.com

More information here:
http://www.broadband-over-powerline.com/PageLibrary/Broadband_Over_Powerline.htm

Broadband Over Powerline FCC Report Broadband over Powerlines 2003
April 23, 2003
SPECIAL BULLETIN

On Wednesday, April 23, 2003, the FCC unanimously adopted a Notice of
Inquiry (NOI) regarding carrier current systems, including broadband
over power line systems. Although the NOI has not been released yet,
the remarks of the Commissioners, who were "excited" about this
"historic breakthrough", are encouraging signs that the NOI will
promote broadband powerline. The Office of Engineering and Technology
(OET) presented the item during the open commission meeting and
explained that the NOI will look at both access and in-home broadband
powerline in order (1) to gather information about broadband powerline
capabilities and deployment; (2) to address the potential interference
effects, if any on authorized spectrum users and (3) to explore the
appropriate measurement procedure for testing emission characteristics
for all types of carrier current systems.
The United PowerLine Council (UPLC) is pleased by the support of the
FCC to promote broadband over powerline through its NOI that it
initiated. The UPLC agrees with the commissioners' sense that the NOI
will mark an historic moment, unveiling broadband over powerline as
the elusive third wire to the home or business that Congress, the FCC
and the states have sought since the Telecommunications Act of 1996.
As Chairman Powell has said, "Broadband deployment is the central
communications policy objective in America today," and transforming
every electric plug into a broadband port is "huge".

Broadband over powerlines is huge for both communications and electric
customers, because it supports commercial applications, such as
broadband Internet access, and improves the quality, efficiency and
reliability of electric services. Broadband consumers get plug and
play access that also networks the entire home or business. They can
surf the web, Internet message, talk on the phone and stream audio and
video all at the same time anywhere in the home. Powerline also
enhances utility services, such as automatic meter reading, load
management and outage detection, thereby improving electric services,
reducing consumption, and securing America's critical infrastructure.

Not only does this technology realize the vision of broadband over
powerlines, it also realizes the vision of the Telecommunications Act
of 1996 by positioning utilities as the third major competitor (in
addition to telecommunications and cable TV) in the retail
communications market. Congress sought to encourage utility entry by
providing a streamlined process that exempts certain utilities from
restrictions that would otherwise prevent them from offering
communications services. As Chairman Powell recognized during the
adoption of the NOI , broadband over powerline places utilities "on
the cutting edge of [a] dramatic digital migration", offering advanced
retail services to customers using the existing electric distribution
infrastructure so that services can be provided quickly without costly
street cuts or truck rolls.

The future of broadband over powerlines will be shaped by progressive
policies both at the state and federal levels of government. In
addition to working with the FCC on its NOI , the UPLC looks forward
to working with the states to eliminate obstacles that would
discourage investor-owned, municipal and cooperatively-organized
utilities from providing broadband over powerline. Encouraging
utilities to deploy this nascent technology will stimulate investment
in facilities-based competition, drive economic growth, and help to
remedy the digital divide, while improving energy efficiency and
infrastructure security and reliability. The UPLC applauds the
Commission's leadership towards these goals in initiating its NOI.
(c)2003 United PowerLine Council

--

Irrational beliefs ultimately lead to irrational acts.
-- Larry Dighera,

[Dave Holford]

Tarver Engineering wrote:
>

> > BTW John - Long (very long) wires make excellent antennas provided that
> > they are at least several wavelenghts long.
>
> Self cancelling at a short distance, do the math.


Nonsense, their main use is as directional gain antennas.


Dave

[Dave Holford]

Gene Storey wrote:
>
> "John Keeney" > wrote
> >
> > Don't they tend to be directional off the pointy end?
>
> No. Electrical waves are right angles to the conductor, often shaped
> like a doughnut. But it doesn't matter in the near-field, as the signal will be
> everywhere.


"LONG" wires, multiple wavelength antennas, exhibit gain in the
direction of the wire - bidirectional if not terminated, unidirectional
if terminated at the non-fed end.

You are thinking of the classic basic dipole.

Dave

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:59:28 -0400, Dave Holford
> wrote in Message-Id:
>:

>
>
>Tarver Engineering wrote:
>>
>
>> > BTW John - Long (very long) wires make excellent antennas provided that
>> > they are at least several wavelenghts long.
>>
>> Self cancelling at a short distance, do the math.
>
>
>Nonsense, their main use is as directional gain antennas.
>

Wouldn't the inductive radiation of parallel conductors carrying
HF/VHF currents tend to cancel each other?


--

Irrational beliefs ultimately lead to irrational acts.
-- Larry Dighera,

[miso]

The BPL warning made the ham radio lists a few months ago. I sent a
nasty-gram to the FCC at that time. Michael Power is both deaf to the
public and a train wreck. I can't think of a more destructive person
who ran the FCC. I wish those rumors that he were going to resign were
true. If we can stall this crap for a year, I doubt Bush*'s
replacement will keep Powell.

"Gene Storey" > wrote in message >...
> The FCC is full speed ahead with its BPL (Broadband over Powerline)
> rule-making, and the U.S. Air Force is looking to spend billions now on
> replacement communications systems, as the use of HF radio will no
> longer be possible. Some studies have even predicted that interference
> problems will go all the way into the aircraft VHF navigation and voice
> bands. "Certainly, the end of LORAN and marine DGPS is at hand" said
> William C. Brodie, Air Force Director of Communications.
>
> FCC Commissioner Abernathy says that BPL will be "Broadband
> Nirvana." The military is trained to adapt, and they will adapt to
> consumer needs.
>
> http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-239079A1.pdf

[WaltBJ]

RE: Broadband Over powerlines:
Are there not enough avenues to combat RFI existing today?
Secondly, I see a lot rpt lot of modifications necessary to get the
hi-freq signals past every transformer on the way from generator to
home. Maybe a better route would running fiber-optic down the center
of the S/UHV high lines - they're hollow, as I remember.
If the resulting RFI hashes AM/FM stations there will be a lot of heat
generated.
I would expect LORAN and HF stations to go by the wayside in the next
20 years anyway. And AM/FM stations will probably be digital by then,
too. So what will happen to the amateurs? Anybody care to offer
projections?
Walt BJ

[[email protected]]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote:

>
>Scottish Power are already running broadband over power lines,
>this doesnt seem to have wiped out HF communication
>and the authorities in the UK who jealously guard radio
>frequencies seem not to be over worried.
>
>Keith
>

Hell...we already have roughly the same thing here in Canada and
the States (worldwide?).

Isn't ADSL really about the same?...(perhaps lower power
though)...they broadcast a ~one megaHertz RF carrier on
unshielded telephone cables...what's the difference really?...I
have this coming right into my 'radio room' where my (ham) HF
radio is located, I don't see any problem at all.
--

-Gord.

[[email protected]]

Dave Holford > wrote:

>
>
>Gene Storey wrote:
>>
>> "John Keeney" > wrote
>> >
>> > Don't they tend to be directional off the pointy end?
>>
>> No. Electrical waves are right angles to the conductor, often shaped
>> like a doughnut. But it doesn't matter in the near-field, as the signal will be
>> everywhere.
>
>
>"LONG" wires, multiple wavelength antennas, exhibit gain in the
>direction of the wire - bidirectional if not terminated, unidirectional
>if terminated at the non-fed end.
>
>You are thinking of the classic basic dipole.
>
>Dave

That's exactly correct...I was going to reply to that but thought
someone could likely describe it better...you just did Dave.
--

-Gord.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Dave Holford" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Tarver Engineering wrote:
> >
>
> > > BTW John - Long (very long) wires make excellent antennas provided
that
> > > they are at least several wavelenghts long.
> >
> > Self cancelling at a short distance, do the math.
>
>
> Nonsense, their main use is as directional gain antennas.

My goodness Holford. :)

Stick to sniffing Stickney's ass.

[David Lesher]

"Gord Beaman" ) writes:


>Isn't ADSL really about the same?...(perhaps lower power
>though)...they broadcast a ~one megaHertz RF carrier on
>unshielded telephone cables...what's the difference really?...I
>have this coming right into my 'radio room' where my (ham) HF
>radio is located, I don't see any problem at all.

Telco cable is twisted pair; that's the difference....

[Twisted pair is in effect shielded cable, through the miracles
of 3-D integral calculus....]

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[George R. Gonzalez]

Let's not fly totally off the handle here folks!

I'd like to have a clean radio environment too, but this power-line Rf stuff
may not fly, or may not be a problem, for any one of many reasons:

#1: It's cheap, if you ignore the cost of fitting RF pasthru's to every
pole transformer.

#2: Will people stick with a service that could very likely be slowed down
or shut down by any noisy vacuum-cleaner motor in the neighborhood?

#3: Exactly how noisy is it, and is this added noise any worse than your
typical urban background hash from HV corona, salty insulators, Harley's,
corona-globes, shavers, light-duimmers, touch-lamps, flourescent tubs,
computer monitors, computer keyboards, christmas lights with flashers and
dimmers, and whatnot?

Let's get the facts before we go toss mudballs at the FCC building.

[Andrew Chaplin]

"George R. Gonzalez" > wrote in
message news:8XAeb.653512$uu5.106982@sccrnsc04...
>
> Let's not fly totally off the handle here folks!
>
> I'd like to have a clean radio environment too, but this power-line Rf
stuff
> may not fly, or may not be a problem, for any one of many reasons:
>
> #1: It's cheap, if you ignore the cost of fitting RF pasthru's to
every
> pole transformer.
>
> #2: Will people stick with a service that could very likely be slowed
down
> or shut down by any noisy vacuum-cleaner motor in the neighborhood?
>
> #3: Exactly how noisy is it, and is this added noise any worse than
your
> typical urban background hash from HV corona, salty insulators,
Harley's,
> corona-globes, shavers, light-duimmers, touch-lamps, flourescent tubs,
> computer monitors, computer keyboards, christmas lights with flashers
and
> dimmers, and whatnot?
>
> Let's get the facts before we go toss mudballs at the FCC building.

Isn't this how some broadband services are distributed in the British
Isles, Finalnd and the Netherlands? How has it worked there? Keith
Willshaw reported that ham ops do not seem to have been adversely
affected. Are they using the same frequency régime?
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

[[email protected]]

"Andrew Chaplin" > wrote:

>

>Isn't this how some broadband services are distributed in the British
>Isles, Finalnd and the Netherlands? How has it worked there? Keith
>Willshaw reported that ham ops do not seem to have been adversely
>affected. Are they using the same frequency régime?

Sure...ham radio has bands of frequencies all through the radio
spectrum starting at just above the AM broadcast band at 1.8 to
2.0 mHz, then (~) each multiple of that to way up in the gHz
area. Something like 3,000 MEGAHERTZ of bandwidth all told.
That's a BUNCH of bandwidth indeed. Especially if one remembers
that the whole regular 'AM broadcast band' is one megaHertz wide.
--

-Gord.

[M. J. Powell]

In message >, Tarver Engineering >
writes
>
>"Dave Holford" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>
>> Tarver Engineering wrote:
>> >
>>
>> > > BTW John - Long (very long) wires make excellent antennas provided
>that
>> > > they are at least several wavelenghts long.
>> >
>> > Self cancelling at a short distance, do the math.
>>
>>
>> Nonsense, their main use is as directional gain antennas.
>
>My goodness Holford. :)
>
>Stick to sniffing Stickney's ass.

Look up Beveridge aerial.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

[Keith Willshaw]

"Andrew Chaplin" > wrote in message
...
>

>
> Isn't this how some broadband services are distributed in the British
> Isles, Finalnd and the Netherlands? How has it worked there? Keith
> Willshaw reported that ham ops do not seem to have been adversely
> affected. Are they using the same frequency régime?

There was an article in IT Week back in August about the UK
trials. They are being carried out in a number of locations including
Crieff and Campbeltown in the north of Scotland and Winchester
in Southern England. A spokesman was quoted as saying

"We have worked with the Radiocommunications Agency and have had
no reports of interference during the trials in Scotland, as we comply with
all current interference legislation."

They report that while there were some early problems with
radiated RF these have been overcome. They are offering a 1 mb service
for £30 per month which is quite competitve with ADSL.

Keith

[[email protected]]

"M. J. Powell" > wrote:

>
>Look up Beveridge aerial.
>
>Mike

It's 'Beverage antenna' Mike...here's a URL

www.geocities.com/kb1gw/bev-page.html
--

-Gord.