Daddy! What did you do?!!!

[Steve Schneider]

One of the advantages of flying is that you can pack so much more into
your weekends. Last weekend was a typically busy one for us. We had
plenty to do around the house, I had to help a neighbor move, and we had
a dinner to help with at the Fallbrook Air Park (L18) for some 80 odd
people -- oh, and we needed to fly out to Phoenix to pick the kids up
from a several week long visit with their grandparents since school is
starting soon. I posted about the eventful trip when we dropped them
off in Sacramento under the "Flew home and boy are my arms tired!" thread.

I'd been trying to convince my wife that we should fly out on Saturday
night after the airport dinner, but she wanted to wait until Sunday
morning -- no doubt so we could enjoy flying into the sun and landing in
112 degree heat once we got to Stellar Air Park (P19) in Chandler, AZ.

When I got back from helping the neighbor move, with just about an hour
to go before we had to be at the airport to help with the dinner, my
wife says, 'Your right. Lets fly out tonight.' So with little time to
spare, I get my DUAT briefing, file a flight plan (guessing at when
we'll be done cleaning up from the airport dinner event), and gather my
flight gear.

It was just after 9PM when we finished cleaning up from the dinner and
we got in the air. I opened my flight plan and enjoyed the fairly calm
air for the flight over the desert. By the time we were approaching
Phoenix, there wasn't any moonlight to illuminate the terrain.

Now typically I'll just start descending near Buckeye (BXK) and slip
under the TCA -- oops dating myself -- Class Bravo with an adequate
height over the Estrella Mountains just south of Phoenix International
Raceway. As we reached Buckeye, I could easily see across the Phoenix
metropolitan area. Visibility was excellent, and there was very little
air traffic. However with the limited terrain visibility from lack of
moonlight, I figured it would be expedient to call approach and ask for
Bravo clearance to Stellar rather than trying to sneak over the
mountains and under the Phoenix Bravo airspace.

Well, approach had me descend from 11.5 to 5.5 and vectored me towards
the south end of the Estrella Mountains. As I got handed off I asked the
new controller if I could turn inbound? Am I cleared into Bravo? No.
No. No. Eventually they turned me inbound and had me descend under the
Bravo airspace. Thanks for nothing. Could have done that myself and
saved 15 or 20 minutes of flying time. As quiet as the airpsace was, I
was astounded that they couldn't accomdate us and sent us so far to the
south. I've never had a request refused in San Diego's Bravo airspace --
I guess we're spoiled out here.

So Approach finally released me to my "...own navigation, squak VFR,
Good Night." a few miles south of Firebird Lake and well under their
airspace -- which, did I mention, we never got to enter. My wife and I
vented about how useless the approach controllers had been as I proceed
to Firebird and inbound to Stellar -- calling my position on CTAF at
Firebird, crosswind, downwind, base and final. We landed just after 11PM.

As I taxied to the transient parking we saw our kids with their
grandparents waiting under the lights at the tie down area. There were
three other people there too, one of whom was talking to my father
in-law. After we climbed out and hugged the kids for the first time in
weeks, my father in-law mentioned that the other folks were asking about
the FBO. I wandered over and provided my limited local knowledge, then
went back to greeting family and starting to tie down and unload the
Lance. The three young men (early 20s) meanwhile had wandered over by
the FBO and fuel truck presumably to figure out what they were going to
do (I did hear them talk about flying someplace else).

Well, next thing I know three Chandler police cars come tearing in from
the main gate with lights flashing and spotlights on -- pointed at us.
As the police jump out of their cars and yell "Who's the pilot?!", my 9
year old daughter's jaw drops and she yells, "Daddy! What did you
do?!!!" As I approached the officer in charge, my wife cracked, "That
controller really must not like you!"

I started wondering if the Approach controllers had intentionally
vectored me through a pop up TFR just to liven up their otherwise boring
evening.

The interrogation went something like this:

Officer: Why were you making low passes over the airport?!
Me: I didn't make any low passes. I just flew a normal pattern
and landed normally.

Officer: Why didn't you talk to the control tower?
Me: There is no control tower, but I did broadcast my position.

Officer: Why didn't you answer your radio?
Me: Answer who? I opened my flight plan on the radio, and I was
talking to Phoenix Approach Control from Buckeye to a short
distance from the airport. Other than the blind broadcasts
in the pattern, there wasn't anyone else to talk to.

Officer: Why didn't you turn on the runway lights?
Me: I did -- I just landed with the runway lights on!

etc, etc, etc. In his mind I had done all kinds of bad things his
dispatcher had apparently told him, and there was no convincing him
otherwise. Guilty until proven innocent.

A word to the wise from recent first hand experience -- don't gesture
towards the air to indicate to an officer where you came from or how you
flew your pattern. Billy clubs suddenly start raising from their
holsters. Oh yeah, and for those like me who aren't normally on the
receiving end of police questioning late at night, don't put your hand
in your pocket to get your cell phone to close your flight plan -- they
don't like that either. Best advice, close the flight plan before the
SWAT team wannabes descend upon you.

The Officer finally admitted he didn't know anything about flying, but
he had reports from his dispatcher of these things happening. I
suggested that perhaps he should talk to the three folks from the other
plane who they completely missed when they came storming down the ramp.
That suggestion fell on deaf ears -- as if I was trying to deflect
suspicion elsewhere. My father in-law tried to explain to one of the
other officers that this sounded like the behavior he saw from the other
plane as they were waiting for us to arrive. Eventually a resident of
the airpark -- who in fact had called the police -- finally stepped
forward and helped sort things out. He had heard me call in over
Firebird, and knew I wasn't the pilot they wanted. The one officer still
stayed on me for quite a while -- long after his buddies had focused on
the other plane.

Turns out the other plane (an Archer I think) had made erratic low
passes only 400 feet above the airport, did not announce themselves on
CTAF, did not turn on the lights (the resident who called the police had
activated the lights for them and had tried to raise them on the current
and former CTAF frequencies to no avail), they landed about half way
down the runway and bounced some three times (my father in-law swears he
heard metal on pavement sounds on one of the bounces) before barely
coming to a stop at the end of the runway. Then they back taxied down
the runway and stopped in the middle of the runway at the transient turn
off and sat for a while before exiting the runway. The concerned
resident was worried about safety, whether that plane was stolen, making
a drug rendevouz, drunk or non-pilot on a joy ride, etc. So he made the
right call and dialed 911. We just had the misfortune of arriving just
before the police finally got to the airport.

Eventually we were allowed to go as the Police started searching the
other airplane. Being that it was midnight and we needed to get the kids
in bed, I didn't have the luxury to hang around and see what ultimately
happened.

The next morning I went back to the airport to get fuel, and the other
airplane was already gone. However the scene of the police cars
descending upon us and my young daughter's paniced exclamation are now
permanently etched in my mind.

I did manage to take a couple of pictures of the Lance with the police
cars on the ramp. You can seem them at the bottom of this URL:

http://www.4-fs.com/new/flying/2007-08-18-P19.htm

[[email protected]]

On Aug 24, 10:56 am, Steve Schneider > wrote:
> One of the advantages of flying is that you can pack so much more into
> your weekends. Last weekend was a typically busy one for us. We had
> plenty to do around the house, I had to help a neighbor move, and we had
> a dinner to help with at the Fallbrook Air Park (L18) for some 80 odd
> people -- oh, and we needed to fly out to Phoenix to pick the kids up
> from a several week long visit with their grandparents since school is
> starting soon. I posted about the eventful trip when we dropped them
> off in Sacramento under the "Flew home and boy are my arms tired!" thread.
>
> I'd been trying to convince my wife that we should fly out on Saturday
> night after the airport dinner, but she wanted to wait until Sunday
> morning -- no doubt so we could enjoy flying into the sun and landing in
> 112 degree heat once we got to Stellar Air Park (P19) in Chandler, AZ.
>
> When I got back from helping the neighbor move, with just about an hour
> to go before we had to be at the airport to help with the dinner, my
> wife says, 'Your right. Lets fly out tonight.' So with little time to
> spare, I get my DUAT briefing, file a flight plan (guessing at when
> we'll be done cleaning up from the airport dinner event), and gather my
> flight gear.
>
> It was just after 9PM when we finished cleaning up from the dinner and
> we got in the air. I opened my flight plan and enjoyed the fairly calm
> air for the flight over the desert. By the time we were approaching
> Phoenix, there wasn't any moonlight to illuminate the terrain.
>
> Now typically I'll just start descending near Buckeye (BXK) and slip
> under the TCA -- oops dating myself -- Class Bravo with an adequate
> height over the Estrella Mountains just south of Phoenix International
> Raceway. As we reached Buckeye, I could easily see across the Phoenix
> metropolitan area. Visibility was excellent, and there was very little
> air traffic. However with the limited terrain visibility from lack of
> moonlight, I figured it would be expedient to call approach and ask for
> Bravo clearance to Stellar rather than trying to sneak over the
> mountains and under the Phoenix Bravo airspace.
>
> Well, approach had me descend from 11.5 to 5.5 and vectored me towards
> the south end of the Estrella Mountains. As I got handed off I asked the
> new controller if I could turn inbound? Am I cleared into Bravo? No.
> No. No. Eventually they turned me inbound and had me descend under the
> Bravo airspace. Thanks for nothing. Could have done that myself and
> saved 15 or 20 minutes of flying time. As quiet as the airpsace was, I
> was astounded that they couldn't accomdate us and sent us so far to the
> south. I've never had a request refused in San Diego's Bravo airspace --
> I guess we're spoiled out here.
>
> So Approach finally released me to my "...own navigation, squak VFR,
> Good Night." a few miles south of Firebird Lake and well under their
> airspace -- which, did I mention, we never got to enter. My wife and I
> vented about how useless the approach controllers had been as I proceed
> to Firebird and inbound to Stellar -- calling my position on CTAF at
> Firebird, crosswind, downwind, base and final. We landed just after 11PM.
>
> As I taxied to the transient parking we saw our kids with their
> grandparents waiting under the lights at the tie down area. There were
> three other people there too, one of whom was talking to my father
> in-law. After we climbed out and hugged the kids for the first time in
> weeks, my father in-law mentioned that the other folks were asking about
> the FBO. I wandered over and provided my limited local knowledge, then
> went back to greeting family and starting to tie down and unload the
> Lance. The three young men (early 20s) meanwhile had wandered over by
> the FBO and fuel truck presumably to figure out what they were going to
> do (I did hear them talk about flying someplace else).
>
> Well, next thing I know three Chandler police cars come tearing in from
> the main gate with lights flashing and spotlights on -- pointed at us.
> As the police jump out of their cars and yell "Who's the pilot?!", my 9
> year old daughter's jaw drops and she yells, "Daddy! What did you
> do?!!!" As I approached the officer in charge, my wife cracked, "That
> controller really must not like you!"
>
> I started wondering if the Approach controllers had intentionally
> vectored me through a pop up TFR just to liven up their otherwise boring
> evening.
>
> The interrogation went something like this:
>
> Officer: Why were you making low passes over the airport?!
> Me: I didn't make any low passes. I just flew a normal pattern
> and landed normally.
>
> Officer: Why didn't you talk to the control tower?
> Me: There is no control tower, but I did broadcast my position.
>
> Officer: Why didn't you answer your radio?
> Me: Answer who? I opened my flight plan on the radio, and I was
> talking to Phoenix Approach Control from Buckeye to a short
> distance from the airport. Other than the blind broadcasts
> in the pattern, there wasn't anyone else to talk to.
>
> Officer: Why didn't you turn on the runway lights?
> Me: I did -- I just landed with the runway lights on!
>
> etc, etc, etc. In his mind I had done all kinds of bad things his
> dispatcher had apparently told him, and there was no convincing him
> otherwise. Guilty until proven innocent.
>
> A word to the wise from recent first hand experience -- don't gesture
> towards the air to indicate to an officer where you came from or how you
> flew your pattern. Billy clubs suddenly start raising from their
> holsters. Oh yeah, and for those like me who aren't normally on the
> receiving end of police questioning late at night, don't put your hand
> in your pocket to get your cell phone to close your flight plan -- they
> don't like that either. Best advice, close the flight plan before the
> SWAT team wannabes descend upon you.
>
> The Officer finally admitted he didn't know anything about flying, but
> he had reports from his dispatcher of these things happening. I
> suggested that perhaps he should talk to the three folks from the other
> plane who they completely missed when they came storming down the ramp.
> That suggestion fell on deaf ears -- as if I was trying to deflect
> suspicion elsewhere. My father in-law tried to explain to one of the
> other officers that this sounded like the behavior he saw from the other
> plane as they were waiting for us to arrive. Eventually a resident of
> the airpark -- who in fact had called the police -- finally stepped
> forward and helped sort things out. He had heard me call in over
> Firebird, and knew I wasn't the pilot they wanted. The one officer still
> stayed on me for quite a while -- long after his buddies had focused on
> the other plane.
>
> Turns out the other plane (an Archer I think) had made erratic low
> passes only 400 feet above the airport, did not announce themselves on
> CTAF, did not turn on the lights (the resident who called the police had
> activated the lights for them and had tried to raise them on the current
> and former CTAF frequencies to no avail), they landed about half way
> down the runway and bounced some three times (my father in-law swears he
> heard metal on pavement sounds on one of the bounces) before barely
> coming to a stop at the end of the runway. Then they back taxied down
> the runway and stopped in the middle of the runway at the transient turn
> off and sat for a while before exiting the runway. The concerned
> resident was worried about safety, whether that plane was stolen, making
> a drug rendevouz, drunk or non-pilot on a joy ride, etc. So he made the
> right call and dialed 911. We just had the misfortune of arriving just
> before the police finally got to the airport.
>
> Eventually we were allowed to go as the Police started searching the
> other airplane. Being that it was midnight and we needed to get the kids
> in bed, I didn't have the luxury to hang around and see what ultimately
> happened.
>
> The next morning I went back to the airport to get fuel, and the other
> airplane was already gone. However the scene of the police cars
> descending upon us and my young daughter's paniced exclamation are now
> permanently etched in my mind.
>
> I did manage to take a couple of pictures of the Lance with the police
> cars on the ramp. You can seem them at the bottom of this URL:
>
> http://www.4-fs.com/new/flying/2007-08-18-P19.htm

Bizarre... nice cops you have there. Surprised they didn't shoot you.

[Rob]

I live several miles north of Stellar. The other day I came home from
work at about 5:30 PM to find two squad cars parked in front of my
home. No cops so be seen, so I assumed they had some business with my
next-door neighbor to the East (he's had some "issues"). My neighbor
to the West was on an out-of-town trip and had asked me to water some
plants, so I went over there with my friendly lab-dog Buddy in trail.
Coming out of the neighbor's place, I turned around to lock the door
and the dog got a few steps ahead of me and around the corner.
Suddenly I heard a loud shout "GET DOWN! GET DOWN! GET DOWN!" and the
dog came trotting back around the corner toward me. I took a peak
around the corner and a cop was standing in my neighbor's yard with
his weapon drawn. He shouted "I ALMOST SHOT YOUR DOG" at me. Now,
this dog is the kindest soul you'll ever meet. Admittedly, he wasn't
on a leash, but he's verbally confined to the front yard and he knows
it, and he's no threat to anyone. At that point, the incident was
over, so I just sort of make a wisecrack to the dog to the effect of
"you almost got shot, you little punk". Cop didn't like that one. As
we walked past him across my neighbor's lawn toward my driveway, he
was getting back into his car. I guess he had a second thought,
because he got back out of his car and shouted at me "SIR, WE HAVE A
LEASH LAW HERE.". I asked "even on private property?" and he said
"yup, I'm not going to write you a ticket today, but if I see you
again out here without a leash on the dog I will". I said sorry and
thanks and kept walking toward my front door. At that point the cop
shouted "SIR! GO BACK TO YOUR HOME AND GET YOUR LEASH RIGHT NOW!" I
pointed at my front door and said "That's my home, I was watering some
plants for the neighbor" at which point the cop looked confused, and
looked at his partner who gave him a nod as if to say "OK, come on,
let's go" and they left. Sorry for the long story, but hearing what
happened at Stellar reinforces my feeling about my own incident - that
we have some hot-headed cops here that are jumping to conclusions and
someone is going to get hurt. I suspect this might be a factor too:

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/93979

3 officers investigated in steroid use

Chandler police have launched an internal affairs investigation into
three of their officers tied to a Drug Enforcement Agency probe into
allegations of doctors prescribing anabolic steroids.
....

-R

[Marco Leon]

Great story and well-written. Thanks for sharing.

I was wondering though, how much jurisdiction they had in this situation.

(no, you can't search my plane, and I *was* doing low passes but what are
you going to do about it?) Methinks they don't have a checkbox on their
summons for landing long on the runway.

Marco



"Steve Schneider" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> One of the advantages of flying is that you can pack so much more into
> your weekends. Last weekend was a typically busy one for us. We had plenty
> to do around the house, I had to help a neighbor move, and we had

[[email protected]]

> Dean, I'm not normally a "net cop", but did you really have to quote
> nearly two full pages of text just to add a "one liner"? At the bottom?
>
> Bob Moore

Bob,

Sorry, in Google the guote doesn't show up... I'll trim more next
time.

Dean

[Jim Stewart]

Rob wrote:
> I live several miles north of Stellar. The other day I came home from
> work at about 5:30 PM to find two squad cars parked in front of my
> home. No cops so be seen, so I assumed they had some business with my
> next-door neighbor to the East (he's had some "issues"). My neighbor
> to the West was on an out-of-town trip and had asked me to water some
> plants, so I went over there with my friendly lab-dog Buddy in trail.
> Coming out of the neighbor's place, I turned around to lock the door
> and the dog got a few steps ahead of me and around the corner.
> Suddenly I heard a loud shout "GET DOWN! GET DOWN! GET DOWN!" and the
> dog came trotting back around the corner toward me. I took a peak
> around the corner and a cop was standing in my neighbor's yard with
> his weapon drawn. He shouted "I ALMOST SHOT YOUR DOG" at me. Now,
> this dog is the kindest soul you'll ever meet. Admittedly, he wasn't
> on a leash, but he's verbally confined to the front yard and he knows
> it, and he's no threat to anyone. At that point, the incident was
> over, so I just sort of make a wisecrack to the dog to the effect of
> "you almost got shot, you little punk". Cop didn't like that one. As
> we walked past him across my neighbor's lawn toward my driveway, he
> was getting back into his car. I guess he had a second thought,
> because he got back out of his car and shouted at me "SIR, WE HAVE A
> LEASH LAW HERE.". I asked "even on private property?" and he said
> "yup, I'm not going to write you a ticket today, but if I see you
> again out here without a leash on the dog I will". I said sorry and
> thanks and kept walking toward my front door. At that point the cop
> shouted "SIR! GO BACK TO YOUR HOME AND GET YOUR LEASH RIGHT NOW!" I
> pointed at my front door and said "That's my home, I was watering some
> plants for the neighbor" at which point the cop looked confused, and
> looked at his partner who gave him a nod as if to say "OK, come on,
> let's go" and they left. Sorry for the long story, but hearing what
> happened at Stellar reinforces my feeling about my own incident - that
> we have some hot-headed cops here that are jumping to conclusions and
> someone is going to get hurt. I suspect this might be a factor too:

There was a time in my life when I went out
of my way to help cops. I have a letter
somewhere from the police chief of a large
city commending me for helping an officer
subdue a drunk and get him into the car.

No more.

There may still be good cops out there, but
my experience over the last few years is that
most of them seem to be driven by ego and
adrenaline.

The safest thing for a law-abiding citizen to
do is avoid contact. If that's not possible,
keep your hands in plain view and, without
sacrificing your own constitutional rights,
conclude your interaction with a cop as quickly
and as peacefully as possible.

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 12:20:43 -0700, wrote in
. com>:

> in Google the guote doesn't show up.

Martin Hotze will *give* you a real Usenet account on his server. Then
you won't have to be identified with the GoogleGroups spam-gateway.
It's your choice.

[Rob]

....feeling guilty about my long O.T. post about my dog and angry cops,
and I had a couple of additional thoughts:

-You can avoid the high Sierra Estrella terrain and the class bravo at
night by flying to the Gila Bend VOR, then east until you're about
south of the PHX VOR. Then cut northeast to Stellar. Once you can
see I-10 all the way into the city you've got it made.

- There's a new East-West VFR transition route through the PHX class B
that would have served your purposes nicely, check out the most recent
TAC. Asking for it by name is more likely to get you a warm reception
from approach. The controller likely didn't want you interfering with
the big boys on downwind south of PHX runways 7/8/25/26. I fly out of
Deer Valley Airport northeast of PHX, and I've never been refused the
(other) VFR transition route North/South over Sky Harbor (although I
have been told to "stand by" for a good while back in the days when my
radio chops weren't as good).

-R

[Gattman[_2_]]

> wrote in message
oups.com...

> Bizarre... nice cops you have there. Surprised they didn't shoot you.

Not sure if any readers are on the Oregon coast, but I was sitting around a
campfire not too long ago with a bunch of middle-aged men of various
backgrounds (including a cop and a Coast Guard officer.)

My mom had been arrested and detained for having a previously-opened bottle
of Nyquil in her truck and I mentioned how uptight she said the police had
been. One guy at the fire laughs and says "I was arrested by the Astoria
police once...they thought I was some other guy." Another person from
Astoria piped up and said the same thing--that the Astoria police had
arrested him as a teenager thinking he was somebody else, and then the Coast
Guard officer said he'd been pepper sprayed for intervening when the Astoria
police were harrassing some kid in his yard. It turns out 100% of the
people I know from Astoria have been arrested including a Coast Guard
officer and a retired police officer.

Just an FYI, if you ever visit the northern Oregon coast between Tillamook
and Astoria.

-c

[[email protected]]

On Aug 24, 2:11 pm, Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 12:20:43 -0700, wrote in
> . com>:
>
> > in Google the guote doesn't show up.
>
> Martin Hotze will *give* you a real Usenet account on his server. Then
> you won't have to be identified with the GoogleGroups spam-gateway.
> It's your choice.

And where would this server be found?

Dean

[EridanMan]

This does get me thinking-

I spend a lot of time around SFO Bravo, and have _never_ had a problem
getting Bravo clearance (hell, I've been cleared into bravo several
times without even asking, and for no real reason). I do the bayshore
freeway transition probably three or four times a week without so much
as a batted eyelash from ATC.

I've noticed that a lot of non-Bay-Area Pilots have a certain
"Airspace Phobia", that is, they will go _way_ out of their way to
avoid all controlled airspace, and essentially consider it/treat it as
though it was a TFR. For Example, I flew up to Portland a few
weekends ago, and decided to give a local friend an aerial tour of the
city. Before taking off, I got talking with a local pilot, who made
sure to 'warn' me "Watch out! its really tight in there between the
hills (With 1400 foot transmission towers) and the river!, you'll have
to go really slow and make a very tight turn to get back out of there
and avoid the controlled airspace!"

If you look at PDX on the seattle chart you can see what he's talking
about. Downtown is located on a little flat land between a river and
a hill with a string of 1500 foot broadcast towers, all under a 2300
foot Charlie floor. The space between the river (Charlie to the
floor) and the towers is a mile or two at MOST... frankly, reminds me
of the former east river corridor, low with no room to move.

I politely thanked him for his advice, took off, promptly called up
norcal, and asked for Class Charlie Clearance. It took all of 30
seconds, and I was given free reign to tour the city as I saw fit, at
a _safe_ altitude, no low slow turns, no stress from towers, just a
nice, easy flight. The whole 'be careful, go slow' advice seemed...
well, almost silly and misguided, if not dangerous. Why was calling
up approach and getting into two-way radio communication not the first/
only option?

Hearing your story does make me wonder though, I always just assumed
that my comfort in controlled airspace was merely a result of being
'brought up' (primary training) at a class Charlie field (OAK) under a
Bravo Shelf, and that the people who were skittish of controlled
airspace just lacked the practice/comfort with ATC. I wonder though
how much of that impression also comes from the fact that on the whole
I've always found the norcal guys to be so polite, friendly and
accommodating. Is that unusual? Are some Controlled airspaces more
intimidating than others?

I guess I'm just wondering if there is any regular and consistent
"personality" differences between Bravo Approach regions throughout
the country, and if my comfort in Bravo is partly because I'm used to
a particular control area that just happens to be very 'nice'?

[Doug Semler]

On Aug 24, 4:50 pm, EridanMan > wrote:

>
> Hearing your story does make me wonder though, I always just assumed
> that my comfort in controlled airspace was merely a result of being
> 'brought up' (primary training) at a class Charlie field (OAK) under a
> Bravo Shelf, and that the people who were skittish of controlled
> airspace just lacked the practice/comfort with ATC. I wonder though
> how much of that impression also comes from the fact that on the whole
> I've always found the norcal guys to be so polite, friendly and
> accommodating. Is that unusual? Are some Controlled airspaces more
> intimidating than others?
>

I don't think liveatc doesn't have it anymore, but you need to hear
DTW when they're reversing their runways <g>. (Extreme hyperbole
follows) It seems like they don't give a bravo clearance if there is a
wisp of a cloud in the area <g>

[Longworth[_1_]]

On Aug 24, 12:56 pm, Steve Schneider > wrote:
> One of the advantages of flying is that you can pack so much more into
> your weekends. Last weekend was a typically busy one for us. We had

Steve,
I enjoyed reading both of your stories. Your last weekend was
certainly packed with a lot of actions with help from the FBO guy and
the cops ;-)

Hai Longworth

[Jay Honeck]

> Well, next thing I know three Chandler police cars come tearing in from
> the main gate with lights flashing and spotlights on -- pointed at us.
> As the police jump out of their cars and yell "Who's the pilot?!", my 9
> year old daughter's jaw drops and she yells, "Daddy! What did you
> do?!!!"

Steve, you need to develop a lower profile. (And your daughter is
going to be warped for life, you know... ;-)

Dunno what's up with your cops -- must be the heat? They sound like
they need to enroll in some relaxation therapy -- maybe get a full-
body massage once in a while?

Thanks for sharing the story(s) -- it was a great read!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Marty Shapiro]

john smith > wrote in
:

>> On Aug 24, 4:50 pm, EridanMan > wrote:
>> > Are some Controlled airspaces more intimidating than others?
>
> Each ATC facility is its own fifedom.
> The manager of the facility sets the tone for how things in his world
> will operate.
>

Another factor may be the percentage of controllers at the facility
who are also pilots. Years ago I took a tour of Bay Approach when it was
located at Oakland airport and they told me that Bay had the highest
percentage of controller/pilots in the system and that Oakland Center was
second. I don't what the numbers for this are today.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Newps]

> john smith > wrote in
> :
>
>
>>>On Aug 24, 4:50 pm, EridanMan > wrote:
>>>
>>>>Are some Controlled airspaces more intimidating than others?
>>
>>Each ATC facility is its own fifedom.
>>The manager of the facility sets the tone for how things in his world
>>will operate.


The bigger the facility the less the manager matters. Here in Billings,
a small facility by comparison, I have had at least 10 managers in my 14
years here. We haven't changed our attitude toward the traffic one iota
due to the manager. He's a paper pusher and memo writer. He does not
work traffic, no FAA manager does anymore. They are not allowed to by
FAA edict.
>>
>
>
> Another factor may be the percentage of controllers at the facility
> who are also pilots.



That's huge.


Years ago I took a tour of Bay Approach when it was
> located at Oakland airport and they told me that Bay had the highest
> percentage of controller/pilots in the system and that Oakland Center was
> second. I don't what the numbers for this are today.

I've never seen numbers for any facility. Here we have 19 controllers.
Five of us own airplanes and one flies a powered parachute. At
least half have PPL's. And four union members. About the perfect place
to work.

[Rob]

EridanMan wrote:
> I guess I'm just wondering if there is any regular and consistent
> "personality" differences between Bravo Approach regions throughout
> the country, and if my comfort in Bravo is partly because I'm used to
> a particular control area that just happens to be very 'nice'?

I haven't flown repeatedly in enough different class B to correlate
attitude to a particular location, but I have flown VFR in a light
single across the country and back twice and flown in or near class B
in at least Phoenix, Las Vegas, Chicago, Cleveland, Pittsburgh,
Philadelphia, and Memphis. On my initial call, I usually try to give
an approach controller an opportunity to call back when he has a break
in the action by saying something like "Approach, Grumman 12345, VFR
with request". I've had responses all the way from "Grumman 12345
squawk VFR, remain VFR, remain clear of class bravo airspace good day"
to the usual "Grumman 12345 say request" to "Grumman 12345 RADAR
contact 30 east of XYZ level 8500, XYZ altimeter 29.92, squawk 4567,
cleared into class bravo airspace, let me know when you want to
descend".

-R

[[email protected]]

On Aug 24, 3:02 pm, Marty Shapiro >
wrote:

> Another factor may be the percentage of controllers at the facility
> who are also pilots. Years ago I took a tour of Bay Approach when it was
> located at Oakland airport and they told me that Bay had the highest
> percentage of controller/pilots in the system and that Oakland Center was
> second. I don't what the numbers for this are today.

I was part of a group that toured Norcal TRACON (formerly Bay
Approach) last weekend. One of our hosts made the point that they'd
rather be talking to us than not. If they see a conflict developing,
it's much easier for them to call traffic to both planes and *know*
there are two sets of eyes working on the see and avoid, rather than
*hope* that the 1200 is paying attention.

I fly out of SQL and have never been denied a Bay Tour or the 101
transition through Class Bravo. Having learned to fly at an non-
towered airport, it was intimidating as hell the first few times I did
it, but is second nature by now.

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

"EridanMan" wrote:

> I guess I'm just wondering if there is any regular and consistent
> "personality" differences between Bravo Approach regions throughout
> the country,

There is.

In my experience, Atlanta and Dallas are always hyper and very curt. Houston
can be high stress too, but will sometimes be laid back and helpful.

New Orleans is, well, N' Awlins.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 13:44:47 -0700, wrote in
. com>:

>On Aug 24, 2:11 pm, Larry Dighera > wrote:
>> On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 12:20:43 -0700, wrote in
>> . com>:
>>
>> > in Google the guote doesn't show up.
>>
>> Martin Hotze will *give* you a real Usenet account on his server. Then
>> you won't have to be identified with the GoogleGroups spam-gateway.
>> It's your choice.
>
>And where would this server be found?
>
>Dean

Here's the article Martin Hotze posted:


Path: From: Martin Hotze >
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: newsserver access
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 19:31:35 +0200
Organization: no org, just me
Lines: 51
Message-ID: >
NNTP-Posting-Host: r-extern.office.hotze.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Trace: kirk.hotze.com 1176485525 5833 82.150.198.62 (13 Apr 2007
17:32:05 GMT)
X-Complaints-To:
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 17:32:05 +0000 (UTC)
User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221)
Xref: wnmaster11 rec.aviation.piloting:525646
X-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 17:32:05 GMT
(bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net)

[This posting might sound as a commercial plug, but it isn't.]

Hi,

there was a discussion recently regarding access to newsservers and
problems with the one or the other provider. Now you have the
possibility to access usenet free of charge.

As you might know we are operating a usenet news server [1] with more
than 30 active feeds and we run cleanfeed for wiping out the garbage.
Currently we carry the following groups:
at.*
de.*
az.*
novell.*
oesterreich.*
rec.aviation.*

We are giving out *free* access to our text only news server (as a
service to the rec.aviation.* folks). If you want an account please
send
an email (this should be a working email address because I have to
reply
to you in order to send you the access information) to martin at hotze
dot com and please identify yourself with your name or screen name
(don't just reply to this post!). We reserve the right to deny service
to anyone, esp. to one [2].

please note:
- this is a free service, but as I use this server on my own I have
the
highest interest in a working service. :-)
- please adhere to at least the basics of netiquette (no spamming,
etc.)
- you won't receive any advertising nor will we sell your information
- you are free to suggest groups we should carry. We will collect this
information and might add these groups or hierarchies (text only
groups,
no binaries).

how will it work:
you will receive a username and a password, you configure your usenet
client to connect to "news.hotze.com" on port 119 (= standard port).
Enter the username and password and you are free to read and post
using
this newsserver.

hope this helps,

Martin


[1] see <http://www.hotze.com/index.php?page=newsfeed-peering>
[2] we aren't able to filter the one on our server, so you still have
to
use your local filter.
--
I am not a terrorist <http://www.casualdisobedience.com/>

[Mike Adams[_2_]]

Rob > wrote:

> The controller likely didn't want you interfering with
> the big boys on downwind south of PHX runways 7/8/25/26.

Yes, that is the primary airline arrival corridor for traffic from the West.

> I fly out of
> Deer Valley Airport northeast of PHX, and I've never been refused the
> (other) VFR transition route North/South over Sky Harbor

Me too, and me neither.

As far as the general issue of different tracons having different personalities, I agree, and in general the
Phoenix tracon is not all that accommodating of GA. There's a huge amount of GA training traffic, and for
the most part they put up with us, and in general the service is adequate, but it's nothing like Socal. For
impromptu IFR clearances, tower enroute, etc. Socal is VERY GA friendly by comparison.

Mike

[Marty Shapiro]

Rob > wrote in
ps.com:

> EridanMan wrote:
>> I guess I'm just wondering if there is any regular and consistent
>> "personality" differences between Bravo Approach regions throughout
>> the country, and if my comfort in Bravo is partly because I'm used to
>> a particular control area that just happens to be very 'nice'?
>
> I haven't flown repeatedly in enough different class B to correlate
> attitude to a particular location, but I have flown VFR in a light
> single across the country and back twice and flown in or near class B
> in at least Phoenix, Las Vegas, Chicago, Cleveland, Pittsburgh,
> Philadelphia, and Memphis. On my initial call, I usually try to give
> an approach controller an opportunity to call back when he has a break
> in the action by saying something like "Approach, Grumman 12345, VFR
> with request". I've had responses all the way from "Grumman 12345
> squawk VFR, remain VFR, remain clear of class bravo airspace good day"
> to the usual "Grumman 12345 say request" to "Grumman 12345 RADAR
> contact 30 east of XYZ level 8500, XYZ altimeter 29.92, squawk 4567,
> cleared into class bravo airspace, let me know when you want to
> descend".
>
> -R
>

The most interesting response I had was going into LAS many years ago,
shortly after the air space became alphabet soup. I was over Hoover Dam
and the frequency stated on ATIS was non-stop with air tour traffic.
Looking at the TAC, there was a diffeent frequency listed for that area, so
I tried it. It appeared quiet, so I broadcast "Las Vegas Approach, Archer
12345 over Hoover Damn squawking VFR request". The response, much to my
surprise, was "Archer 12345 squawk 1234 clear to enter the Las Vegas Class
Bravo say request."

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Nathan Young]

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 20:50:16 -0000, EridanMan >
wrote:

>This does get me thinking-
<snip>
>I guess I'm just wondering if there is any regular and consistent
>"personality" differences between Bravo Approach regions throughout
>the country, and if my comfort in Bravo is pes without even asking, and for no real reason). I do the bayshore
>freeway transition probably three or four times a week without so much
>as a batted eyelash from ATC.
>artly because I'm used to
>a particular control area that just happens to be very 'nice'?

Clearances for VFR / Bravo airspace transitions seem to vary widely
depending on the facility. While traveling on VFR x-c's I have been
cleared into Bravo many times. On the other hand, I have been flying
in the Chicago ORD area for 10+ years now, and have had exactly 1 VFR
Bravo transition, and that was at 1 in the morning.

-Nathan

[Ricky]

> In my experience, Atlanta and Dallas are always hyper and very curt.

Hmmm...I did my commercial/instrument training at Corsicana, Tx.
(Navarro College) and made regular forrays to Love field (Southwest's
home). I loved the sprawling metropolis, especially at night, and the
tour of downtown Big D approaching Love was always a treat.
I was never under the impression that Dallas was hyper or curt,
although maybe they were and that's all I had experience with at the
time.
Going to Love seemed easy, just call regional approach shortly after
departure from Corsicana and do what they tell you...

Ricky

[TheSmokingGnu]

Steve Schneider wrote:
> I did manage to take a couple of pictures of the Lance with the police
> cars on the ramp. You can seem them at the bottom of this URL:
>
> http://www.4-fs.com/new/flying/2007-08-18-P19.htm

Only a fiver per night for transient tie-down?

Taste my envy! :D

TheSmokingGnu

[EridanMan]

Wow, ok, I think this might almost be worth an entirely new thread
but...

"With Request".

I have heard repeatedly, from multiple instructors and fellow pilots,
that this is a major pet-peeve of ATC, and unless they are in a good
mood, almost guarantees that they will simply dismiss you as a "Timid
weekend flyer" (Not my words, please don't kill the messenger!!;))

Generally I would take such advice with a grain of salt, if it weren't
for the large variety of (in my opinion) very skilled, experienced,
and professional pilots who had all provided the _EXACT_ same advice:

(and from now on, I'm paraphrasing)

They all say the same thing... "With request" is akin to "asking for
advice", I.E. "I'm not sure if I need X service or not, so I'm going
to take your airtime and ask you if your willing to give it to me...
But its not that important".

That's not their job, their job is to keep everything flowing
smoothly, not tell you whether or not you should take X or Y route...
You are the PIC, you hold the flight plan, you decide where your plane
is going. Your job is simply to inform them of your plan as clearly
and professionally as possible, and they will inform you if
circumstances require you to deviate from it. Nothing more, nothing
less.

/Paraphrase

I'll be the first to admit I'm 160 hour pilot... a rookie at best
(neophyte more like it)... But this advice comes from an ATP, the
owner of a local Aircraft Dealership, and my Instructor - none of whom
have ever met eachother, all of whom are in the 4 and 5 figures of
flight time, and the explanation given was always the same.

And, it kinda makes sense...

IMHO at least.

[B A R R Y]

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 20:50:16 -0000, EridanMan >
wrote:

>I guess I'm just wondering if there is any regular and consistent
>"personality" differences between Bravo Approach regions throughout
>the country, and if my comfort in Bravo is partly because I'm used to
>a particular control area that just happens to be very 'nice'?

I've never had issues with NY, Boston, or Philly. My co-owner was
blown away by a few contacts with DFW with how easy they were to deal
with.

I'll usually check which approaches are in use at the protected
airports before I leave, and make an effort to keep my path clear of
them, as well as request the transitions displayed on terminal area
charts. I'll also have my ducks in a row before I radio them, and
usually be on a VFR FF as I approach the space.

NY is far busier than Boston, and requires clear comms and fast,
concise answers. Boston often doesn't seem all that different than
some Charlie spaces. I have heard NY brush off plenty of stutterers.
<G>

I haven't flown in SFO space, but it sounds like we have similar
experiences.

[Mike Adams[_2_]]

EridanMan > wrote:

> "With Request".
>
> I have heard repeatedly, from multiple instructors and fellow pilots,
> that this is a major pet-peeve of ATC, and unless they are in a good
> mood, almost guarantees that they will simply dismiss you as a "Timid
> weekend flyer" (Not my words, please don't kill the messenger!!;))
>
I seem to recall reading a Don Brown column on Avweb some time ago where he encouraged the "with
request" on initial call up. He said this helps the controller to realize that this is someone new that he
hasn't been talking to, rather than having to scan his scope and try to determine if this is a tail number
that he should be recognizing. I've had a few occasions where the controller will come back with a
squawk code immediately, and then ask for the request. So it gives them a heads up without taking a lot
of air time on initial call up.

Mike

[Doug Semler]

"Mike Adams" > wrote in message
...
> EridanMan > wrote:
>
>> "With Request".
>>
>> I have heard repeatedly, from multiple instructors and fellow pilots,
>> that this is a major pet-peeve of ATC, and unless they are in a good
>> mood, almost guarantees that they will simply dismiss you as a "Timid
>> weekend flyer" (Not my words, please don't kill the messenger!!;))
>>
> I seem to recall reading a Don Brown column on Avweb some time ago where
> he encouraged the "with
> request" on initial call up. He said this helps the controller to realize
> that this is someone new that he
> hasn't been talking to, rather than having to scan his scope and try to
> determine if this is a tail number
> that he should be recognizing. I've had a few occasions where the
> controller will come back with a
> squawk code immediately, and then ask for the request. So it gives them a
> heads up without taking a lot
> of air time on initial call up.
>


Huh, my memory may be off, but I seem to remember him saying that you don't
"request to make a request". Just make the request on the initial callup.
(I quickly found the one below, but I remember him <siging> every time he
wrote that someone said something like: "Atlanta Center, Cessna one two
three for five, request.")

I would think that around here, it would be much much faster to say (oh,
yeah, and say it fast and pay attention!):

Detroit approach, Cessna 12345 at Salem, request bravo transtion to Grosse
Isle
Cessna 12345, Detroit Approach, unable, there's a cloud in the sky [Ok,
exageration again....follow the bloody flyways around the horn and hope you
don't get hit by a freigher under the shelf <g>]


http://www.avweb.com/news/sayagain/190337-1.html

<quote>
I've tried numerous times before, and I'm going to try to make this point
again: If you want my attention and you don't want to hear me say, "Say
again," then use my name. That would be "Atlanta Center."

"Atlanta Center, Cessna one two three for five, request."

I hear this exact transmission at least 25 times a day. Now tell me, is this
guy IFR or VFR? What does he want? He is literally making a request two make
a request. It's a waste of time. If you're going to make a request, then
make a request. Even if it's something out of the ordinary. Condense it down
to one or two words.

"Atlanta Center, Cessna one two three for five, request routing change."

If you think the routing change will be too complicated for a controller two
get "on the fly" -- the first time you say it -- you've now got the
controller's attention and he is prepared to write down your routing
request.

If you're just requesting direct to a fix you've already filed, you're
wasting time. We already know everybody wants to go direct. If you can't
stop yourself from asking, then at least do it in one transmission.

"Atlanta Center, Cessna one two three for five, request direct Spartanburg."

</quote>

--
Doug Semler, MCPD
a.a. #705, BAAWA. EAC Guardian of the Horn of the IPU (pbuhh).
The answer is 42; DNRC o-
Gur Hfrarg unf orpbzr fb shyy bs penc gurfr qnlf, abbar rira
erpbtavmrf fvzcyr guvatf yvxr ebg13 nalzber. Fnq, vfa'g vg?

[Mike Adams[_2_]]

"Doug Semler" > wrote:

> Huh, my memory may be off, but I seem to remember him saying that you
> don't "request to make a request". Just make the request on the
> initial callup.

OK, fair enough. I browsed through his archives and can't find what I was recalling. Too bad he's retired, I
always enjoyed his columns. He does seem to prefer "Atlanta Center, N12345 request VFR advisories"
as an initial call up. The point I was trying to make is to distinguish between a brand new contact and
someone already in the system that he should recognize. Also, on a busy frequency, it's definitely better
to give a short initial "wake-up" call rather than all the details of your request.

Mike

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

"Ricky" wrote:

>> In my experience, Atlanta and Dallas are always hyper and very curt.
>
> Hmmm...I did my commercial/instrument training at Corsicana, Tx.
> (Navarro College) and made regular forrays to Love field (Southwest's
> home). I loved the sprawling metropolis, especially at night, and the
> tour of downtown Big D approaching Love was always a treat.
> I was never under the impression that Dallas was hyper or curt,
> although maybe they were and that's all I had experience with at the
> time.


I bow to your experience. I've only flown there a few times, and always on
weekdays.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

"Doug Semler" wrote:

> Huh, my memory may be off, but I seem to remember him saying that you don't
> "request to make a request".

Right. Controllers hate it when you make them play 20 Questions.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

[Marty Shapiro]

EridanMan > wrote in
ups.com:

> Wow, ok, I think this might almost be worth an entirely new thread
> but...
>
> "With Request".
>
> I have heard repeatedly, from multiple instructors and fellow pilots,
> that this is a major pet-peeve of ATC, and unless they are in a good
> mood, almost guarantees that they will simply dismiss you as a "Timid
> weekend flyer" (Not my words, please don't kill the messenger!!;))
>
> Generally I would take such advice with a grain of salt, if it weren't
> for the large variety of (in my opinion) very skilled, experienced,
> and professional pilots who had all provided the _EXACT_ same advice:
>
> (and from now on, I'm paraphrasing)
>
> They all say the same thing... "With request" is akin to "asking for
> advice", I.E. "I'm not sure if I need X service or not, so I'm going
> to take your airtime and ask you if your willing to give it to me...
> But its not that important".
>
> That's not their job, their job is to keep everything flowing
> smoothly, not tell you whether or not you should take X or Y route...
> You are the PIC, you hold the flight plan, you decide where your plane
> is going. Your job is simply to inform them of your plan as clearly
> and professionally as possible, and they will inform you if
> circumstances require you to deviate from it. Nothing more, nothing
> less.
>
> /Paraphrase
>
> I'll be the first to admit I'm 160 hour pilot... a rookie at best
> (neophyte more like it)... But this advice comes from an ATP, the
> owner of a local Aircraft Dealership, and my Instructor - none of whom
> have ever met eachother, all of whom are in the 4 and 5 figures of
> flight time, and the explanation given was always the same.
>
> And, it kinda makes sense...
>
> IMHO at least.
>

The preference changes with facility!

I learned to fly at SJC at the time when both SJC and OAK were ARSA
airports. At SJC, unless I wanted to stay in the pattern, I needed to call
clearance delivery before calling ground. The first time I went into
Oakland, I did the same thing as it, too, was an ARSA airport. Oakland
clearance informed me that for VFR departures, I should just call ground
directly. Here are two nearby airports with different preferences.

Again, from an old tour of Bay Approach, Bay said they prefer you give
them the whole spiel on initial call up, - ie. Bugsmasher 12345 4,500 over
LVK landing SJC with delta or Bugsmasher 12345 off RHV 1,500 climbing 4,500
VFR TVL request radar services. But they told me other facilities prefer a
short call, ie. Bugsmasher 12345 off RHV squawking VFR request.

In any area, I listen and if the frequency is very busy, I give the
short "request" form, otherwise I give the whole speil on initial call up.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Luke Skywalker]

On Aug 24, 8:39 pm, "Dan Luke" > wrote:
> "EridanMan" wrote:
> > I guess I'm just wondering if there is any regular and consistent
> > "personality" differences between Bravo Approach regions throughout
> > the country,
>
> There is.
>
> In my experience, Atlanta and Dallas are always hyper and very curt. Houston
> can be high stress too, but will sometimes be laid back and helpful.
>
> New Orleans is, well, N' Awlins.
>
> --
> Dan
> T-182T at BFM

Dan...

my impression having driven big iron and GA aircraft in and out of a
Lot of TCA's opps Class B's is that the main determining factor is the
pilot. Sound like you know what you are doing and they assume you do.

Stutter, dont have a plan, be random in your radio work...they tend to
all get a little stiff particularly as traffic mounts.

Robert

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

"Luke Skywalker" wrote:
>
> Stutter, dont have a plan, be random in your radio work...they tend to
> all get a little stiff particularly as traffic mounts.

True.

Busy TRACON controllers don't have any patience with nitwits gumming up the
works. If you can't keep up, keep out.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

[john hawkins]

Boy you called that right. Some 30 years ago I used to fly into Dallas Love.
There was rancher I heard a few times also inbound to DAL. He used a cow
bell to announce himself. Approach always knew who he was and would say
Roger barnburner 123( or what ever his call sign was) radar contact.
Other times I'd hear some poor fella who sounded nervous. They always got
treated poorly. Approach just did not have time to deal withsome who was
going to take up a lot of time on the frequency.


"Luke Skywalker" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Aug 24, 8:39 pm, "Dan Luke" > wrote:
>> "EridanMan" wrote:
>> > I guess I'm just wondering if there is any regular and consistent
>> > "personality" differences between Bravo Approach regions throughout
>> > the country,
>>
>> There is.
>>
>> In my experience, Atlanta and Dallas are always hyper and very curt.
>> Houston
>> can be high stress too, but will sometimes be laid back and helpful.
>>
>> New Orleans is, well, N' Awlins.
>>
>> --
>> Dan
>> T-182T at BFM
>
> Dan...
>
> my impression having driven big iron and GA aircraft in and out of a
> Lot of TCA's opps Class B's is that the main determining factor is the
> pilot. Sound like you know what you are doing and they assume you do.
>
> Stutter, dont have a plan, be random in your radio work...they tend to
> all get a little stiff particularly as traffic mounts.
>
> Robert
>

[John Clear]

In article >,
Marty Shapiro > wrote:
>
> Again, from an old tour of Bay Approach, Bay said they prefer you give
>them the whole spiel on initial call up, - ie. Bugsmasher 12345 4,500 over
>LVK landing SJC with delta or Bugsmasher 12345 off RHV 1,500 climbing 4,500
>VFR TVL request radar services. But they told me other facilities prefer a
>short call, ie. Bugsmasher 12345 off RHV squawking VFR request.

I've tried both the full spiel and "Norcal Approach, Bugsmasher
12345 VFR Request" for the initial call and have found that the
second form works much better. The first always ends up with 20
questions, since the controller wasn't ready to get all my details.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/

[B A R R Y]

On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 03:19:02 GMT, "john hawkins"
> wrote:

>Other times I'd hear some poor fella who sounded nervous. They always got
>treated poorly. Approach just did not have time to deal withsome who was
>going to take up a lot of time on the frequency.
>

I've heard busy ground controllers do the same. <G>

Nervous Ned sits in parking with his engine running, ignored, while
ground hands out taxi clearance after taxi clearance. Once he makes
a coherent request, he finally gets on his way.

[Andy Hawkins]

Hi,

In article m>,
> wrote:

> On my initial call, I usually try to give an approach controller an
> opportunity to call back when he has a break in the action by saying
> something like "Approach, Grumman 12345, VFR with request".

Here in the UK, I think the recommended form is for the initial
transmission just to include the request. The conversation goes something
like:

XYZ Radar, G-ABCD request flight information service

G-CD, pass your message

G-CD is a Piper Warrior, from Heathrow to Gatwick, currently 5 miles north
of Gatwick. Request flight information service.

Apparently, the first call allows the controller to select the right colour
strip based on what your request is going to be, before you start passing
him reams of information that he isn't ready to write down.

Andy

[Blueskies]

"Steve Schneider" > wrote in message ...
>
>
>
> I did manage to take a couple of pictures of the Lance with the police cars on the ramp. You can seem them at the
> bottom of this URL:
>
> http://www.4-fs.com/new/flying/2007-08-18-P19.htm



Thanks for the post and the reality check. Things are not the same as they used to be...

Did you get any badge numbers or any opportunity to follow up about this?

I like the Lance, lit up with the pretty blue lights. ;-)

[Ross]

Dan Luke wrote:
> "Ricky" wrote:
>
>
>>>In my experience, Atlanta and Dallas are always hyper and very curt.
>>
>>Hmmm...I did my commercial/instrument training at Corsicana, Tx.
>>(Navarro College) and made regular forrays to Love field (Southwest's
>>home). I loved the sprawling metropolis, especially at night, and the
>>tour of downtown Big D approaching Love was always a treat.
>>I was never under the impression that Dallas was hyper or curt,
>>although maybe they were and that's all I had experience with at the
>>time.
>
>
>
> I bow to your experience. I've only flown there a few times, and always on
> weekdays.
>

I too fly in the Dallas area and have never had a problem with them. As
Ricky wrote, the "City Tour" at night is great and approach is easy to
work with. Now, one time, I requested clearance Class Bravo to go to a
airport south of Dallas and the contoller said cleared Class Bravo,
expect vectors. He vectored me to my airport. Looking at the map, he
vectored me under and around the Class B ?????.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[Mark T. Dame]

Jim Stewart wrote:
>
> There may still be good cops out there, but
> my experience over the last few years is that
> most of them seem to be driven by ego and
> adrenaline.

I basically have a high respect for most law enforcement officers (and
only partly because my wife used to be one), but these days it seems
there's a larger number of cops who were the kid that was picked on at
school and they seem to take it out on everyone they meet.

There are others who are perfectly friendly and will go out of their way
to help you, but the ones with the inferiority complexes seem to
overshadow the good ones.

It's a shame really.

But, to get this back to aviation, the majority of the cops that patrol
our airport are really good guys. When we're hanging out after flying
drinking a few cold ones they tend to stop and chat with us for a few
minutes while doing their rounds.


-m
--
## Mark T. Dame >
## CP-ASEL-IA, CFI-A, AGI
## <insert tail number here>
## KHAO, KISZ
"And the children call him famous, what the old men call insane."
-- Jefferson Airplane, "Lather"

[Tater]

On Aug 24, 11:56 am, Steve Schneider > wrote:
I
> suggested that perhaps he should talk to the three folks from the other
> plane who they completely missed when they came storming down the ramp.
> That suggestion fell on deaf ears -- as if I was trying to deflect
> suspicion elsewhere.


> My father in-law tried to explain to one of the
> other officers that this sounded like the behavior he saw from the other
> plane as they were waiting for us to arrive. Eventually a resident of
> the airpark -- who in fact had called the police -- finally stepped
> forward and helped sort things out. He had heard me call in over
> Firebird, and knew I wasn't the pilot they wanted. The one officer still
> stayed on me for quite a while -- long after his buddies had focused on
> the other plane.
>

File a lawsuit, extended harrasment. incompetence. get them fired.

Morons like that should not be allowed to have guns or authority

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Tater" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Aug 24, 11:56 am, Steve Schneider > wrote:
> I
>> suggested that perhaps he should talk to the three folks from the other
>> plane who they completely missed when they came storming down the ramp.
>> That suggestion fell on deaf ears -- as if I was trying to deflect
>> suspicion elsewhere.
>
>
>> My father in-law tried to explain to one of the
>> other officers that this sounded like the behavior he saw from the other
>> plane as they were waiting for us to arrive. Eventually a resident of
>> the airpark -- who in fact had called the police -- finally stepped
>> forward and helped sort things out. He had heard me call in over
>> Firebird, and knew I wasn't the pilot they wanted. The one officer still
>> stayed on me for quite a while -- long after his buddies had focused on
>> the other plane.
>>
>
> File a lawsuit, extended harrasment. incompetence. get them fired.
>
> Morons like that should not be allowed to have guns or authority

Yeah, right.

This was in Chandler, where one cop (Lovelace) managed to get one innocent
bystander killed during a high speed pursuit, then killed a lady for an
illegal prescription.

Chandler PD is both corrupt and grossly inept (according to my BIL who lives
net door in Gilbert/Power Ranch (whose PD is even worse).

[buttman]

On Aug 27, 3:15 pm, Tater > wrote:
> File a lawsuit, extended harrasment. incompetence. get them fired.
>
> Morons like that should not be allowed to have guns or authority

Get them fired for asking questions?

[Martin Hotze]

Blueskies schrieb:


> Thanks for the post and the reality check. Things are not the same as they used to be...

how true ... :-)))))
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/odd_beer_run_arrests


#m
--
I am not a terrorist <http://www.casualdisobedience.com/>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Steve Schneider" > wrote in message
...
>
> One of the advantages of flying is that you can pack so much more into
> your weekends. Last weekend was a typically busy one for us. We had plenty
> to do around the house, I had to help a neighbor move, and we had a dinner
> to help with at the Fallbrook Air Park (L18) for some 80 odd people -- oh,
> and we needed to fly out to Phoenix to pick the kids up from a several
> week long visit with their grandparents since school is starting soon. I
> posted about the eventful trip when we dropped them
> off in Sacramento under the "Flew home and boy are my arms tired!" thread.
>
> I'd been trying to convince my wife that we should fly out on Saturday
> night after the airport dinner, but she wanted to wait until Sunday
> morning -- no doubt so we could enjoy flying into the sun and landing in
> 112 degree heat once we got to Stellar Air Park (P19) in Chandler, AZ.
>
> When I got back from helping the neighbor move, with just about an hour to
> go before we had to be at the airport to help with the dinner, my wife
> says, 'Your right. Lets fly out tonight.' So with little time to spare, I
> get my DUAT briefing, file a flight plan (guessing at when we'll be done
> cleaning up from the airport dinner event), and gather my flight gear.
>
> It was just after 9PM when we finished cleaning up from the dinner and we
> got in the air. I opened my flight plan and enjoyed the fairly calm air
> for the flight over the desert. By the time we were approaching Phoenix,
> there wasn't any moonlight to illuminate the terrain.
>
> Now typically I'll just start descending near Buckeye (BXK) and slip under
> the TCA -- oops dating myself -- Class Bravo with an adequate height over
> the Estrella Mountains just south of Phoenix International Raceway. As we
> reached Buckeye, I could easily see across the Phoenix metropolitan area.
> Visibility was excellent, and there was very little air traffic. However
> with the limited terrain visibility from lack of moonlight, I figured it
> would be expedient to call approach and ask for Bravo clearance to Stellar
> rather than trying to sneak over the mountains and under the Phoenix Bravo
> airspace.
>
> Well, approach had me descend from 11.5 to 5.5 and vectored me towards the
> south end of the Estrella Mountains. As I got handed off I asked the new
> controller if I could turn inbound? Am I cleared into Bravo? No. No. No.
> Eventually they turned me inbound and had me descend under the Bravo
> airspace. Thanks for nothing. Could have done that myself and saved 15 or
> 20 minutes of flying time. As quiet as the airpsace was, I was astounded
> that they couldn't accomdate us and sent us so far to the south. I've
> never had a request refused in San Diego's Bravo airspace --
> I guess we're spoiled out here.
>
> So Approach finally released me to my "...own navigation, squak VFR, Good
> Night." a few miles south of Firebird Lake and well under their
> airspace -- which, did I mention, we never got to enter. My wife and I
> vented about how useless the approach controllers had been as I proceed to
> Firebird and inbound to Stellar -- calling my position on CTAF at
> Firebird, crosswind, downwind, base and final. We landed just after 11PM.
>

What did Approach say was the purpose of the vectors?

[Jay Beckman[_2_]]

On Aug 27, 4:05 pm, "Matt Barrow" >
wrote:
> "Tater" > wrote in message
>
> ups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 24, 11:56 am, Steve Schneider > wrote:
> > I
> >> suggested that perhaps he should talk to the three folks from the other
> >> plane who they completely missed when they came storming down the ramp.
> >> That suggestion fell on deaf ears -- as if I was trying to deflect
> >> suspicion elsewhere.
>
> >> My father in-law tried to explain to one of the
> >> other officers that this sounded like the behavior he saw from the other
> >> plane as they were waiting for us to arrive. Eventually a resident of
> >> the airpark -- who in fact had called the police -- finally stepped
> >> forward and helped sort things out. He had heard me call in over
> >> Firebird, and knew I wasn't the pilot they wanted. The one officer still
> >> stayed on me for quite a while -- long after his buddies had focused on
> >> the other plane.
>
> > File a lawsuit, extended harrasment. incompetence. get them fired.
>
> > Morons like that should not be allowed to have guns or authority
>
> Yeah, right.
>
> This was in Chandler, where one cop (Lovelace) managed to get one innocent
> bystander killed during a high speed pursuit, then killed a lady for an
> illegal prescription.
>
> Chandler PD is both corrupt and grossly inept (according to my BIL who lives
> net door in Gilbert/Power Ranch (whose PD is even worse).- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

So you don't live in Chandler, AZ and neither, in fact, does your BIL
yet you both are qualified to make this judgement, how?

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Aug 27, 4:05 pm, "Matt Barrow" >
> wrote:
>> "Tater" > wrote in message
>>

>> Yeah, right.
>>
>> This was in Chandler, where one cop (Lovelace) managed to get one
>> innocent
>> bystander killed during a high speed pursuit, then killed a lady for an
>> illegal prescription.
>>
>> Chandler PD is both corrupt and grossly inept (according to my BIL who
>> lives
>> net door in Gilbert/Power Ranch (whose PD is even worse).- Hide quoted
>> text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> So you don't live in Chandler, AZ and neither, in fact, does your BIL
> yet you both are qualified to make this judgement, how?
>
And what does "living there" have to do with it? I don't live in NY or NJ
but I know they're incipiently corrupt, just as I've never dealt with the
UN, but I know they're the model of _corrupt_.

[Shirl]

"Matt Barrow" >:
> > This was in Chandler, where one cop (Lovelace) managed
> > to get one innocent bystander killed during a high speed
> > pursuit, then killed a lady for an illegal prescription.
> >
> > Chandler PD is both corrupt and grossly inept (according to
> > my BIL who lives net door in Gilbert/Power Ranch (whose PD
> > is even worse).- Hide quoted text

Jay Beckman > wrote:
> So you don't live in Chandler, AZ and neither, in fact, does your
> BIL yet you both are qualified to make this judgement, how?

Does being a resident of a city qualify someone to make those kinds of
accusations? I'd like to know what police dept *doesn't* have incidents
where things turned out badly and could have been handled more
efficiently. And how many incidents are handled well, solved, and have a
positive outcome that don't make the nightly news and are taken for
granted by residents? Always amazes me how an entire operation can be
labeled as "corrupt and grossly inept" by a couple of splashy nightly
news clips of unfortunate incidents.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Shirl" > wrote in message
...
> "Matt Barrow" >:
>> > This was in Chandler, where one cop (Lovelace) managed
>> > to get one innocent bystander killed during a high speed
>> > pursuit, then killed a lady for an illegal prescription.
>> >
>> > Chandler PD is both corrupt and grossly inept (according to
>> > my BIL who lives net door in Gilbert/Power Ranch (whose PD
>> > is even worse).- Hide quoted text
>
> Jay Beckman > wrote:
>> So you don't live in Chandler, AZ and neither, in fact, does your
>> BIL yet you both are qualified to make this judgement, how?
>
> Does being a resident of a city qualify someone to make those kinds of
> accusations? I'd like to know what police dept *doesn't* have incidents
> where things turned out badly and could have been handled more
> efficiently. And how many incidents are handled well, solved, and have a
> positive outcome that don't make the nightly news and are taken for
> granted by residents? Always amazes me how an entire operation can be
> labeled as "corrupt and grossly inept" by a couple of splashy nightly
> news clips of unfortunate incidents.

Even police will have a few successes :~)

Look at their record, though, over the long term. Look, too, at their upper
divisions and the city administration as well.

Just as the public schools intent is not to educate (in the classical use of
the word), neither is the purpose of the police, any more, to keep the
peace. (Notice how in the 1970's an onward, police stopped referring to
themselves as "Peace Officers" and started calling themselves "Law
Enforcement". That requires a pretty big stretch of logic to infer that the
laws are for protecting the public rather than some other group.

[Shirl]

Shirl:
> > Does being a resident of a city qualify someone to make those kinds of
> > accusations? I'd like to know what police dept *doesn't* have incidents
> > where things turned out badly and could have been handled more
> > efficiently. And how many incidents are handled well, solved, and have a
> > positive outcome that don't make the nightly news and are taken for
> > granted by residents? Always amazes me how an entire operation can be
> > labeled as "corrupt and grossly inept" by a couple of splashy nightly
> > news clips of unfortunate incidents.

"Matt Barrow" > wrote:

> Even police will have a few successes :~)

There are more than a few.
It's just that the successes aren't splashed all over the TV for days
after the fact as are the failures.

> Look at their record, though, over the long term. Look, too, at their upper
> divisions and the city administration as well.
>
> Just as the public schools intent is not to educate (in the classical use of
> the word), neither is the purpose of the police, any more, to keep the
> peace. (Notice how in the 1970's an onward, police stopped referring to
> themselves as "Peace Officers" and started calling themselves "Law
> Enforcement". That requires a pretty big stretch of logic to infer that the
> laws are for protecting the public rather than some other group.

Well, now you're talking about police in general rather than your
previous specific judgments and accusations about two specific police
departments, one of which you cited two poorly handled instances that
both saturated local news as justification. When they find a missing
child or arrest a murderer or any number of drunk drivers, no one
notices or remembers because that it, in fact, what they're supposed to
be doing.

[Blueskies]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message ...
> Blueskies schrieb:
>
>
>> Thanks for the post and the reality check. Things are not the same as they used to be...
>
> how true ... :-)))))
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/odd_beer_run_arrests
>
>
> #m
> --
> I am not a terrorist <http://www.casualdisobedience.com/>

Wow! Absolute lunacy...

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

"Martin Hotze" wrote:

> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/odd_beer_run_arrests

Pathetic.

This country has lost its nerve.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Shirl" > wrote in message
...
> Shirl:
>> > Does being a resident of a city qualify someone to make those kinds of
>> > accusations? I'd like to know what police dept *doesn't* have incidents
>> > where things turned out badly and could have been handled more
>> > efficiently. And how many incidents are handled well, solved, and have
>> > a
>> > positive outcome that don't make the nightly news and are taken for
>> > granted by residents? Always amazes me how an entire operation can be
>> > labeled as "corrupt and grossly inept" by a couple of splashy nightly
>> > news clips of unfortunate incidents.
>
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote:
>
>> Even police will have a few successes :~)
>
> There are more than a few.
> It's just that the successes aren't splashed all over the TV for days
> after the fact as are the failures.

Look up how many crimes there are where they actually intervene.
>
>> Look at their record, though, over the long term. Look, too, at their
>> upper
>> divisions and the city administration as well.
>>
>> Just as the public schools intent is not to educate (in the classical use
>> of
>> the word), neither is the purpose of the police, any more, to keep the
>> peace. (Notice how in the 1970's an onward, police stopped referring to
>> themselves as "Peace Officers" and started calling themselves "Law
>> Enforcement". That requires a pretty big stretch of logic to infer that
>> the
>> laws are for protecting the public rather than some other group.
>
> Well, now you're talking about police in general rather than your
> previous specific judgments and accusations about two specific police
> departments, one of which you cited two poorly handled instances that
> both saturated local news as justification.

Thos two were hardly the only ones. Chandler, about five years ago, at the
behest of their PD, installed intersection cams then cut the yellow lights
from 7 seconds to 4.5.

About eight years ago, they got into big trouble for shaking down hispanics,
but it had nothing to di with fighting crime and nothing to do with illegal
aliens.


> When they find a missing
> child or arrest a murderer or any number of drunk drivers, no one
> notices or remembers because that it, in fact, what they're supposed to
> be doing.

Yes, that is all quite nice and very necessary, but look at the historical
record and you'll find police devote only about one-fourth as much effort
to such activities as they have in the past.

Recall the joke, " Call the police and call for a pizza and see who gets
there first".

Or, call the police and tell them someone is breaking into you house, then
when you've waited over a half hour (as we have...in a smaller town) call
them and tell them someone is in front of your house smoking a joint...then
stand back so you don't get run over.

Time to get a current view on police services, not a 20-30 years old look
embellished by Jack Webb and Hollyweird.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Martin Hotze" wrote:
>
>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/odd_beer_run_arrests
>
> Pathetic.
>
> This country has lost its nerve.
>

And it's marbles.

[cjcampbell]

On Aug 25, 12:40 am, EridanMan > wrote:
> Wow, ok, I think this might almost be worth an entirely new thread
> but...
>
> "With Request".
>
> I have heard repeatedly, from multiple instructors and fellow pilots,
> that this is a major pet-peeve of ATC, and unless they are in a good
> mood, almost guarantees that they will simply dismiss you as a "Timid
> weekend flyer" (Not my words, please don't kill the messenger!!;))
>
> Generally I would take such advice with a grain of salt, if it weren't
> for the large variety of (in my opinion) very skilled, experienced,
> and professional pilots who had all provided the _EXACT_ same advice:
>
> (and from now on, I'm paraphrasing)
>
> They all say the same thing... "With request" is akin to "asking for
> advice", I.E. "I'm not sure if I need X service or not, so I'm going
> to take your airtime and ask you if your willing to give it to me...
> But its not that important".

I really don't care what a controller thinks of me. In fact, he should
be more concerned about what I think of him. I am the customer, not
him, and the customer is always right. If he wants me to talk to him
then he can put up with my idisyncracies or he can quit being a
controller, because I really don't need him.

You get some controllers who blather on forever and you can't get a
word in edgewise. In such a case, I am not going to initiate my call
with some long request. I am going to wait until he has time to take
my request. There is nothing wrong with saying "with request" in such
a case.

Methinks too many pilots are a little too self-conscious when dealing
with authority, forgetting that they are the pilot in command. I don't
have a need to impress controllers with my ability.

[Shirl]

Shirl:
> > When they find a missing
> > child or arrest a murderer or any number of drunk drivers, no one
> > notices or remembers because that it, in fact, what they're supposed to
> > be doing.

"Matt Barrow" > wrote:
> Yes, that is all quite nice and very necessary, but look at the historical
> record and you'll find police devote only about one-fourth as much effort
> to such activities as they have in the past.
>
> Recall the joke, " Call the police and call for a pizza and see who gets
> there first".
>
> Or, call the police and tell them someone is breaking into you house, then
> when you've waited over a half hour (as we have...in a smaller town) call
> them and tell them someone is in front of your house smoking a joint...then
> stand back so you don't get run over.
>
> Time to get a current view on police services, not a 20-30 years old look
> embellished by Jack Webb and Hollyweird.

IMO, those are blanket generalizations about police services. They
aren't perfect -- most services aren't these days. There is more
corruption and ineptness in everything today than there was 20-30 years
ago. It's no worse in Chandler or Gilbert than it is in any other metro
area.

[Martin Hotze]

Blueskies schrieb:


>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/odd_beer_run_arrests

> Wow! Absolute lunacy...


and check out those terrorists:
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/aaroneous/43674591/>

scary!

google has several thousand of hits re this club:
<http://www.google.com/search?q=%22drinking+club+with+a+running+problem%2 2>

#m
--
I am not a terrorist <http://www.casualdisobedience.com/>

[[email protected]]

On Aug 29, 10:40 am, Martin Hotze > wrote:
> Blueskies schrieb:
>
> >>http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/odd_beer_run_arrests
> > Wow! Absolute lunacy...
>
> and check out those terrorists:
> <http://www.flickr.com/photos/aaroneous/43674591/>
>
> scary!
>
> google has several thousand of hits re this club:
> <http://www.google.com/search?q=%22drinking+club+with+a+running+proble...>
>
> #m
> --
> I am not a terrorist <http://www.casualdisobedience.com/>

Lead poisoning causes severe brain impairment. There must be high
levels of lead in the water in the Northeast. First the Boston police
freaked out over a bunch of cartoon lite-brites, and now the CT police
charge someone from sprinkling flour on the ground to mark a running
route... there is a theory that the Roman empire fell due to lead
poisoning from the use of lead pipes. Looks like it may be happening
in the USA as well!

Dean

[Martin Hotze]

schrieb:

> (...) there is a theory that the Roman empire fell due to lead
> poisoning from the use of lead pipes. Looks like it may be happening
> in the USA as well!

you might have a point here. ;-)

btw:
<http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=72&ItemID=13455>

> Dean


#m
--
I am not a terrorist <http://www.casualdisobedience.com/>

[Ken Finney]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Aug 29, 10:40 am, Martin Hotze > wrote:
>> Blueskies schrieb:
>>
>> >>http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/odd_beer_run_arrests
>> > Wow! Absolute lunacy...
>>
>> and check out those terrorists:
>> <http://www.flickr.com/photos/aaroneous/43674591/>
>>
>> scary!
>>
>> google has several thousand of hits re this club:
>> <http://www.google.com/search?q=%22drinking+club+with+a+running+proble...>
>>
>> #m
>> --
>> I am not a terrorist <http://www.casualdisobedience.com/>
>
> Lead poisoning causes severe brain impairment. There must be high
> levels of lead in the water in the Northeast. First the Boston police
> freaked out over a bunch of cartoon lite-brites, and now the CT police
> charge someone from sprinkling flour on the ground to mark a running
> route... there is a theory that the Roman empire fell due to lead
> poisoning from the use of lead pipes. Looks like it may be happening
> in the USA as well!
>

I heard a tangent on this theory, that it wasn't the lead in the pipes so
much as the artificial sweetener they used, lead acetate. The Romans
developed a real sweet tooth, and sugar was a fairly rare commodity so they
turned to artificial sweetener. Given the obesity problem in the USA,
history may well be repeating itself.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Ken Finney" <> wrote

> I heard a tangent on this theory, that it wasn't the lead in the pipes so
> much as the artificial sweetener they used, lead acetate. The Romans
> developed a real sweet tooth, and sugar was a fairly rare commodity so
> they turned to artificial sweetener. Given the obesity problem in the
> USA, history may well!be repeating itself.

Also, the fact that the higher society women used makeup to make their faces
appear white, like they never had to go outside in the sun; a sign of wealth
and status.

The primary ingredient? White lead.

It would be a miracle if they had any fertility, at all.
--
Jim in NC