Daddy! What did you do?!!!

One of the advantages of flying is that you can pack so much more into
your weekends. Last weekend was a typically busy one for us. We had
plenty to do around the house, I had to help a neighbor move, and we had
a dinner to help with at the Fallbrook Air Park (L18) for some 80 odd
people -- oh, and we needed to fly out to Phoenix to pick the kids up
from a several week long visit with their grandparents since school is
starting soon. I posted about the eventful trip when we dropped them
off in Sacramento under the "Flew home and boy are my arms tired!" thread.

I'd been trying to convince my wife that we should fly out on Saturday
night after the airport dinner, but she wanted to wait until Sunday
morning -- no doubt so we could enjoy flying into the sun and landing in
112 degree heat once we got to Stellar Air Park (P19) in Chandler, AZ.

When I got back from helping the neighbor move, with just about an hour
to go before we had to be at the airport to help with the dinner, my
wife says, 'Your right. Lets fly out tonight.' So with little time to
spare, I get my DUAT briefing, file a flight plan (guessing at when
we'll be done cleaning up from the airport dinner event), and gather my
flight gear.

It was just after 9PM when we finished cleaning up from the dinner and
we got in the air. I opened my flight plan and enjoyed the fairly calm
air for the flight over the desert. By the time we were approaching
Phoenix, there wasn't any moonlight to illuminate the terrain.

Now typically I'll just start descending near Buckeye (BXK) and slip
under the TCA -- oops dating myself -- Class Bravo with an adequate
height over the Estrella Mountains just south of Phoenix International
Raceway. As we reached Buckeye, I could easily see across the Phoenix
metropolitan area. Visibility was excellent, and there was very little
air traffic. However with the limited terrain visibility from lack of
moonlight, I figured it would be expedient to call approach and ask for
Bravo clearance to Stellar rather than trying to sneak over the
mountains and under the Phoenix Bravo airspace.

Well, approach had me descend from 11.5 to 5.5 and vectored me towards
the south end of the Estrella Mountains. As I got handed off I asked the
new controller if I could turn inbound? Am I cleared into Bravo? No.
No. No. Eventually they turned me inbound and had me descend under the
Bravo airspace. Thanks for nothing. Could have done that myself and
saved 15 or 20 minutes of flying time. As quiet as the airpsace was, I
was astounded that they couldn't accomdate us and sent us so far to the
south. I've never had a request refused in San Diego's Bravo airspace --
I guess we're spoiled out here.

So Approach finally released me to my "...own navigation, squak VFR,
Good Night." a few miles south of Firebird Lake and well under their
airspace -- which, did I mention, we never got to enter. My wife and I
vented about how useless the approach controllers had been as I proceed
to Firebird and inbound to Stellar -- calling my position on CTAF at
Firebird, crosswind, downwind, base and final. We landed just after 11PM.

As I taxied to the transient parking we saw our kids with their
grandparents waiting under the lights at the tie down area. There were
three other people there too, one of whom was talking to my father
in-law. After we climbed out and hugged the kids for the first time in
weeks, my father in-law mentioned that the other folks were asking about
the FBO. I wandered over and provided my limited local knowledge, then
went back to greeting family and starting to tie down and unload the
Lance. The three young men (early 20s) meanwhile had wandered over by
the FBO and fuel truck presumably to figure out what they were going to
do (I did hear them talk about flying someplace else).

Well, next thing I know three Chandler police cars come tearing in from
the main gate with lights flashing and spotlights on -- pointed at us.
As the police jump out of their cars and yell "Who's the pilot?!", my 9
year old daughter's jaw drops and she yells, "Daddy! What did you
do?!!!" As I approached the officer in charge, my wife cracked, "That
controller really must not like you!"

I started wondering if the Approach controllers had intentionally
vectored me through a pop up TFR just to liven up their otherwise boring
evening.

The interrogation went something like this:

Officer: Why were you making low passes over the airport?!
Me: I didn't make any low passes. I just flew a normal pattern
and landed normally.

Officer: Why didn't you talk to the control tower?
Me: There is no control tower, but I did broadcast my position.

Officer: Why didn't you answer your radio?
Me: Answer who? I opened my flight plan on the radio, and I was
talking to Phoenix Approach Control from Buckeye to a short
distance from the airport. Other than the blind broadcasts
in the pattern, there wasn't anyone else to talk to.

Officer: Why didn't you turn on the runway lights?
Me: I did -- I just landed with the runway lights on!

etc, etc, etc. In his mind I had done all kinds of bad things his
dispatcher had apparently told him, and there was no convincing him
otherwise. Guilty until proven innocent.

A word to the wise from recent first hand experience -- don't gesture
towards the air to indicate to an officer where you came from or how you
flew your pattern. Billy clubs suddenly start raising from their
holsters. Oh yeah, and for those like me who aren't normally on the
receiving end of police questioning late at night, don't put your hand
in your pocket to get your cell phone to close your flight plan -- they
don't like that either. Best advice, close the flight plan before the
SWAT team wannabes descend upon you.

The Officer finally admitted he didn't know anything about flying, but
he had reports from his dispatcher of these things happening. I
suggested that perhaps he should talk to the three folks from the other
plane who they completely missed when they came storming down the ramp.
That suggestion fell on deaf ears -- as if I was trying to deflect
suspicion elsewhere. My father in-law tried to explain to one of the
other officers that this sounded like the behavior he saw from the other
plane as they were waiting for us to arrive. Eventually a resident of
the airpark -- who in fact had called the police -- finally stepped
forward and helped sort things out. He had heard me call in over
Firebird, and knew I wasn't the pilot they wanted. The one officer still
stayed on me for quite a while -- long after his buddies had focused on
the other plane.

Turns out the other plane (an Archer I think) had made erratic low
passes only 400 feet above the airport, did not announce themselves on
CTAF, did not turn on the lights (the resident who called the police had
activated the lights for them and had tried to raise them on the current
and former CTAF frequencies to no avail), they landed about half way
down the runway and bounced some three times (my father in-law swears he
heard metal on pavement sounds on one of the bounces) before barely
coming to a stop at the end of the runway. Then they back taxied down
the runway and stopped in the middle of the runway at the transient turn
off and sat for a while before exiting the runway. The concerned
resident was worried about safety, whether that plane was stolen, making
a drug rendevouz, drunk or non-pilot on a joy ride, etc. So he made the
right call and dialed 911. We just had the misfortune of arriving just
before the police finally got to the airport.

Eventually we were allowed to go as the Police started searching the
other airplane. Being that it was midnight and we needed to get the kids
in bed, I didn't have the luxury to hang around and see what ultimately
happened.

The next morning I went back to the airport to get fuel, and the other
airplane was already gone. However the scene of the police cars
descending upon us and my young daughter's paniced exclamation are now
permanently etched in my mind.

I did manage to take a couple of pictures of the Lance with the police
cars on the ramp. You can seem them at the bottom of this URL:

http://www.4-fs.com/new/flying/2007-08-18-P19.htm

On Aug 24, 10:56 am, Steve Schneider wrote:
One of the advantages of flying is that you can pack so much more into
your weekends. Last weekend was a typically busy one for us. We had
plenty to do around the house, I had to help a neighbor move, and we had
a dinner to help with at the Fallbrook Air Park (L18) for some 80 odd
people -- oh, and we needed to fly out to Phoenix to pick the kids up
from a several week long visit with their grandparents since school is
starting soon. I posted about the eventful trip when we dropped them
off in Sacramento under the "Flew home and boy are my arms tired!" thread.

I'd been trying to convince my wife that we should fly out on Saturday
night after the airport dinner, but she wanted to wait until Sunday
morning -- no doubt so we could enjoy flying into the sun and landing in
112 degree heat once we got to Stellar Air Park (P19) in Chandler, AZ.

When I got back from helping the neighbor move, with just about an hour
to go before we had to be at the airport to help with the dinner, my
wife says, 'Your right. Lets fly out tonight.' So with little time to
spare, I get my DUAT briefing, file a flight plan (guessing at when
we'll be done cleaning up from the airport dinner event), and gather my
flight gear.

It was just after 9PM when we finished cleaning up from the dinner and
we got in the air. I opened my flight plan and enjoyed the fairly calm
air for the flight over the desert. By the time we were approaching
Phoenix, there wasn't any moonlight to illuminate the terrain.

Now typically I'll just start descending near Buckeye (BXK) and slip
under the TCA -- oops dating myself -- Class Bravo with an adequate
height over the Estrella Mountains just south of Phoenix International
Raceway. As we reached Buckeye, I could easily see across the Phoenix
metropolitan area. Visibility was excellent, and there was very little
air traffic. However with the limited terrain visibility from lack of
moonlight, I figured it would be expedient to call approach and ask for
Bravo clearance to Stellar rather than trying to sneak over the
mountains and under the Phoenix Bravo airspace.

Well, approach had me descend from 11.5 to 5.5 and vectored me towards
the south end of the Estrella Mountains. As I got handed off I asked the
new controller if I could turn inbound? Am I cleared into Bravo? No.
No. No. Eventually they turned me inbound and had me descend under the
Bravo airspace. Thanks for nothing. Could have done that myself and
saved 15 or 20 minutes of flying time. As quiet as the airpsace was, I
was astounded that they couldn't accomdate us and sent us so far to the
south. I've never had a request refused in San Diego's Bravo airspace --
I guess we're spoiled out here.

So Approach finally released me to my "...own navigation, squak VFR,
Good Night." a few miles south of Firebird Lake and well under their
airspace -- which, did I mention, we never got to enter. My wife and I
vented about how useless the approach controllers had been as I proceed
to Firebird and inbound to Stellar -- calling my position on CTAF at
Firebird, crosswind, downwind, base and final. We landed just after 11PM.

As I taxied to the transient parking we saw our kids with their
grandparents waiting under the lights at the tie down area. There were
three other people there too, one of whom was talking to my father
in-law. After we climbed out and hugged the kids for the first time in
weeks, my father in-law mentioned that the other folks were asking about
the FBO. I wandered over and provided my limited local knowledge, then
went back to greeting family and starting to tie down and unload the
Lance. The three young men (early 20s) meanwhile had wandered over by
the FBO and fuel truck presumably to figure out what they were going to
do (I did hear them talk about flying someplace else).

Well, next thing I know three Chandler police cars come tearing in from
the main gate with lights flashing and spotlights on -- pointed at us.
As the police jump out of their cars and yell "Who's the pilot?!", my 9
year old daughter's jaw drops and she yells, "Daddy! What did you
do?!!!" As I approached the officer in charge, my wife cracked, "That
controller really must not like you!"

I started wondering if the Approach controllers had intentionally
vectored me through a pop up TFR just to liven up their otherwise boring
evening.

The interrogation went something like this:

Officer: Why were you making low passes over the airport?!
Me: I didn't make any low passes. I just flew a normal pattern
and landed normally.

Officer: Why didn't you talk to the control tower?
Me: There is no control tower, but I did broadcast my position.

Officer: Why didn't you answer your radio?
Me: Answer who? I opened my flight plan on the radio, and I was
talking to Phoenix Approach Control from Buckeye to a short
distance from the airport. Other than the blind broadcasts
in the pattern, there wasn't anyone else to talk to.

Officer: Why didn't you turn on the runway lights?
Me: I did -- I just landed with the runway lights on!

etc, etc, etc. In his mind I had done all kinds of bad things his
dispatcher had apparently told him, and there was no convincing him
otherwise. Guilty until proven innocent.

A word to the wise from recent first hand experience -- don't gesture
towards the air to indicate to an officer where you came from or how you
flew your pattern. Billy clubs suddenly start raising from their
holsters. Oh yeah, and for those like me who aren't normally on the
receiving end of police questioning late at night, don't put your hand
in your pocket to get your cell phone to close your flight plan -- they
don't like that either. Best advice, close the flight plan before the
SWAT team wannabes descend upon you.

The Officer finally admitted he didn't know anything about flying, but
he had reports from his dispatcher of these things happening. I
suggested that perhaps he should talk to the three folks from the other
plane who they completely missed when they came storming down the ramp.
That suggestion fell on deaf ears -- as if I was trying to deflect
suspicion elsewhere. My father in-law tried to explain to one of the
other officers that this sounded like the behavior he saw from the other
plane as they were waiting for us to arrive. Eventually a resident of
the airpark -- who in fact had called the police -- finally stepped
forward and helped sort things out. He had heard me call in over
Firebird, and knew I wasn't the pilot they wanted. The one officer still
stayed on me for quite a while -- long after his buddies had focused on
the other plane.

Turns out the other plane (an Archer I think) had made erratic low
passes only 400 feet above the airport, did not announce themselves on
CTAF, did not turn on the lights (the resident who called the police had
activated the lights for them and had tried to raise them on the current
and former CTAF frequencies to no avail), they landed about half way
down the runway and bounced some three times (my father in-law swears he
heard metal on pavement sounds on one of the bounces) before barely
coming to a stop at the end of the runway. Then they back taxied down
the runway and stopped in the middle of the runway at the transient turn
off and sat for a while before exiting the runway. The concerned
resident was worried about safety, whether that plane was stolen, making
a drug rendevouz, drunk or non-pilot on a joy ride, etc. So he made the
right call and dialed 911. We just had the misfortune of arriving just
before the police finally got to the airport.

Eventually we were allowed to go as the Police started searching the
other airplane. Being that it was midnight and we needed to get the kids
in bed, I didn't have the luxury to hang around and see what ultimately
happened.

The next morning I went back to the airport to get fuel, and the other
airplane was already gone. However the scene of the police cars
descending upon us and my young daughter's paniced exclamation are now
permanently etched in my mind.

I did manage to take a couple of pictures of the Lance with the police
cars on the ramp. You can seem them at the bottom of this URL:

http://www.4-fs.com/new/flying/2007-08-18-P19.htm

Bizarre... nice cops you have there. Surprised they didn't shoot you.

I live several miles north of Stellar. The other day I came home from
work at about 5:30 PM to find two squad cars parked in front of my
home. No cops so be seen, so I assumed they had some business with my
next-door neighbor to the East (he's had some "issues"). My neighbor
to the West was on an out-of-town trip and had asked me to water some
plants, so I went over there with my friendly lab-dog Buddy in trail.
Coming out of the neighbor's place, I turned around to lock the door
and the dog got a few steps ahead of me and around the corner.
Suddenly I heard a loud shout "GET DOWN! GET DOWN! GET DOWN!" and the
dog came trotting back around the corner toward me. I took a peak
around the corner and a cop was standing in my neighbor's yard with
his weapon drawn. He shouted "I ALMOST SHOT YOUR DOG" at me. Now,
this dog is the kindest soul you'll ever meet. Admittedly, he wasn't
on a leash, but he's verbally confined to the front yard and he knows
it, and he's no threat to anyone. At that point, the incident was
over, so I just sort of make a wisecrack to the dog to the effect of
"you almost got shot, you little punk". Cop didn't like that one. As
we walked past him across my neighbor's lawn toward my driveway, he
was getting back into his car. I guess he had a second thought,
because he got back out of his car and shouted at me "SIR, WE HAVE A
LEASH LAW HERE.". I asked "even on private property?" and he said
"yup, I'm not going to write you a ticket today, but if I see you
again out here without a leash on the dog I will". I said sorry and
thanks and kept walking toward my front door. At that point the cop
shouted "SIR! GO BACK TO YOUR HOME AND GET YOUR LEASH RIGHT NOW!" I
pointed at my front door and said "That's my home, I was watering some
plants for the neighbor" at which point the cop looked confused, and
looked at his partner who gave him a nod as if to say "OK, come on,
let's go" and they left. Sorry for the long story, but hearing what
happened at Stellar reinforces my feeling about my own incident - that
we have some hot-headed cops here that are jumping to conclusions and
someone is going to get hurt. I suspect this might be a factor too:

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/93979

3 officers investigated in steroid use

Chandler police have launched an internal affairs investigation into
three of their officers tied to a Drug Enforcement Agency probe into
allegations of doctors prescribing anabolic steroids.
....

-R

Great story and well-written. Thanks for sharing.

I was wondering though, how much jurisdiction they had in this situation.

(no, you can't search my plane, and I *was* doing low passes but what are
you going to do about it?) Methinks they don't have a checkbox on their
summons for landing long on the runway.

Marco



"Steve Schneider" wrote in message
...


One of the advantages of flying is that you can pack so much more into
your weekends. Last weekend was a typically busy one for us. We had plenty
to do around the house, I had to help a neighbor move, and we had

Dean, I'm not normally a "net cop", but did you really have to quote
nearly two full pages of text just to add a "one liner"? At the bottom?

Bob Moore

Bob,

Sorry, in Google the guote doesn't show up... I'll trim more next
time.

Dean

Rob wrote:
I live several miles north of Stellar. The other day I came home from
work at about 5:30 PM to find two squad cars parked in front of my
home. No cops so be seen, so I assumed they had some business with my
next-door neighbor to the East (he's had some "issues"). My neighbor
to the West was on an out-of-town trip and had asked me to water some
plants, so I went over there with my friendly lab-dog Buddy in trail.
Coming out of the neighbor's place, I turned around to lock the door
and the dog got a few steps ahead of me and around the corner.
Suddenly I heard a loud shout "GET DOWN! GET DOWN! GET DOWN!" and the
dog came trotting back around the corner toward me. I took a peak
around the corner and a cop was standing in my neighbor's yard with
his weapon drawn. He shouted "I ALMOST SHOT YOUR DOG" at me. Now,
this dog is the kindest soul you'll ever meet. Admittedly, he wasn't
on a leash, but he's verbally confined to the front yard and he knows
it, and he's no threat to anyone. At that point, the incident was
over, so I just sort of make a wisecrack to the dog to the effect of
"you almost got shot, you little punk". Cop didn't like that one. As
we walked past him across my neighbor's lawn toward my driveway, he
was getting back into his car. I guess he had a second thought,
because he got back out of his car and shouted at me "SIR, WE HAVE A
LEASH LAW HERE.". I asked "even on private property?" and he said
"yup, I'm not going to write you a ticket today, but if I see you
again out here without a leash on the dog I will". I said sorry and
thanks and kept walking toward my front door. At that point the cop
shouted "SIR! GO BACK TO YOUR HOME AND GET YOUR LEASH RIGHT NOW!" I
pointed at my front door and said "That's my home, I was watering some
plants for the neighbor" at which point the cop looked confused, and
looked at his partner who gave him a nod as if to say "OK, come on,
let's go" and they left. Sorry for the long story, but hearing what
happened at Stellar reinforces my feeling about my own incident - that
we have some hot-headed cops here that are jumping to conclusions and
someone is going to get hurt. I suspect this might be a factor too:

There was a time in my life when I went out
of my way to help cops. I have a letter
somewhere from the police chief of a large
city commending me for helping an officer
subdue a drunk and get him into the car.

No more.

There may still be good cops out there, but
my experience over the last few years is that
most of them seem to be driven by ego and
adrenaline.

The safest thing for a law-abiding citizen to
do is avoid contact. If that's not possible,
keep your hands in plain view and, without
sacrificing your own constitutional rights,
conclude your interaction with a cop as quickly
and as peacefully as possible.

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 12:20:43 -0700, wrote in
.com:

in Google the guote doesn't show up.

Martin Hotze will *give* you a real Usenet account on his server. Then
you won't have to be identified with the GoogleGroups spam-gateway.
It's your choice.

....feeling guilty about my long O.T. post about my dog and angry cops,
and I had a couple of additional thoughts:

-You can avoid the high Sierra Estrella terrain and the class bravo at
night by flying to the Gila Bend VOR, then east until you're about
south of the PHX VOR. Then cut northeast to Stellar. Once you can
see I-10 all the way into the city you've got it made.

- There's a new East-West VFR transition route through the PHX class B
that would have served your purposes nicely, check out the most recent
TAC. Asking for it by name is more likely to get you a warm reception
from approach. The controller likely didn't want you interfering with
the big boys on downwind south of PHX runways 7/8/25/26. I fly out of
Deer Valley Airport northeast of PHX, and I've never been refused the
(other) VFR transition route North/South over Sky Harbor (although I
have been told to "stand by" for a good while back in the days when my
radio chops weren't as good).

-R

wrote in message
oups.com...

Bizarre... nice cops you have there. Surprised they didn't shoot you.

Not sure if any readers are on the Oregon coast, but I was sitting around a
campfire not too long ago with a bunch of middle-aged men of various
backgrounds (including a cop and a Coast Guard officer.)

My mom had been arrested and detained for having a previously-opened bottle
of Nyquil in her truck and I mentioned how uptight she said the police had
been. One guy at the fire laughs and says "I was arrested by the Astoria
police once...they thought I was some other guy." Another person from
Astoria piped up and said the same thing--that the Astoria police had
arrested him as a teenager thinking he was somebody else, and then the Coast
Guard officer said he'd been pepper sprayed for intervening when the Astoria
police were harrassing some kid in his yard. It turns out 100% of the
people I know from Astoria have been arrested including a Coast Guard
officer and a retired police officer.

Just an FYI, if you ever visit the northern Oregon coast between Tillamook
and Astoria.

-c

On Aug 24, 2:11 pm, Larry Dighera wrote:
On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 12:20:43 -0700, wrote in
.com:

in Google the guote doesn't show up.

Martin Hotze will *give* you a real Usenet account on his server. Then
you won't have to be identified with the GoogleGroups spam-gateway.
It's your choice.

And where would this server be found?

Dean