Buying recently rebuilt or fixing one up?

[[email protected]]

I am currently taking flying lessons. I would like to own my own
aircraft and have been considering various options.
I am currently training in a 152 and I think a 150 or 152 would be a
fun first plane to build time with.
The 150/152's that appear to be in good condition seem to be in the
35k range while ones that seem a little more used up are in the 15-20k
range.
I am just wondering if it would be better buy a good condition ready
to fly aircraft for 35k or go for a less expensive one and put 20-25k
into getting it fixed up.

My thought is with the fixer up route, I would have a better idea of
what I am starting with once it is fixed up. I may not know with one I
would pay 35k for and fly away with. The plan would be to fly the
aircraft for a few years and then trade up.

[Newps]

I can't believe anybody spends $35K on a 152. That's just nuts. If
you're just trying to build time and just have to have a 150/152 there's
lots of them out there for $15K that will give years of good service. A
friend of mine just bought a 60 172 in Boise for $18K. It's over TBO
but all compressions are mid 70's. Interior is great(if you don't mind
plaid) and the radios are average. Again if you're looking to build
time this would be a great aircraft. He has it up for sale on
barnstormers for $23K. Seven ads above that is a 56 172 with an asking
price of $22K, IFR equipped if that matters to you. Throw the guy a
price of about $19K and I bet you'll be a new plane owner. No way I
**** away money on a 150/152 when you can get something useful in a 172
for $20K. Even if you bought 6 new cylinders you're still in it for a
lot less than a 152.





wrote:
> I am currently taking flying lessons. I would like to own my own
> aircraft and have been considering various options.
> I am currently training in a 152 and I think a 150 or 152 would be a
> fun first plane to build time with.
> The 150/152's that appear to be in good condition seem to be in the
> 35k range while ones that seem a little more used up are in the 15-20k
> range.
> I am just wondering if it would be better buy a good condition ready
> to fly aircraft for 35k or go for a less expensive one and put 20-25k
> into getting it fixed up.
>
> My thought is with the fixer up route, I would have a better idea of
> what I am starting with once it is fixed up. I may not know with one I
> would pay 35k for and fly away with. The plan would be to fly the
> aircraft for a few years and then trade up.
>

[NW_Pilot]

"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
>I can't believe anybody spends $35K on a 152. That's just nuts. If you're
>just trying to build time and just have to have a 150/152 there's lots of
>them out there for $15K that will give years of good service. A friend of
>mine just bought a 60 172 in Boise for $18K. It's over TBO but all
>compressions are mid 70's. Interior is great(if you don't mind plaid) and
>the radios are average. Again if you're looking to build time this would
>be a great aircraft. He has it up for sale on barnstormers for $23K.
>Seven ads above that is a 56 172 with an asking price of $22K, IFR equipped
>if that matters to you. Throw the guy a price of about $19K and I bet
>you'll be a new plane owner. No way I **** away money on a 150/152 when
>you can get something useful in a 172 for $20K. Even if you bought 6 new
>cylinders you're still in it for a lot less than a 152.
>
>
>
>
>
> wrote:
>> I am currently taking flying lessons. I would like to own my own
>> aircraft and have been considering various options.
>> I am currently training in a 152 and I think a 150 or 152 would be a
>> fun first plane to build time with.
>> The 150/152's that appear to be in good condition seem to be in the
>> 35k range while ones that seem a little more used up are in the 15-20k
>> range.
>> I am just wondering if it would be better buy a good condition ready
>> to fly aircraft for 35k or go for a less expensive one and put 20-25k
>> into getting it fixed up.
>>
>> My thought is with the fixer up route, I would have a better idea of
>> what I am starting with once it is fixed up. I may not know with one I
>> would pay 35k for and fly away with. The plan would be to fly the
>> aircraft for a few years and then trade up.
>>

6 Cyl con's good engines also!!! Wish I had 19k liquid.

[Dave Butler]

wrote:
> I am currently taking flying lessons. I would like to own my own
> aircraft and have been considering various options.
> I am currently training in a 152 and I think a 150 or 152 would be a
> fun first plane to build time with.

Nothing wrong with a 150/152 if that's really what you want. I agree
with Newps that spending $35K on a 150/152 is nuts.

Many people find that after they've had the ticket for a short time,
their mission profile is not what they had thought it would be. I'd
suggest renting for a while and trying out different aircraft types,
high-wing, low-wing, 2-seat, 4-seat, simple, complex, etc. and you'll
have a better idea what you want. The instruction that you get in
checking out in the different types is likely to be useful down the
road, too, regardless of the type you end up buying.

If there's a club nearby with a variety of airplanes, that's a good
solution.

My opinion of the 150/152 is that it makes a good trainer, but its
utility as a personal airplane is limited, unless what you like doing is
the same old things you've been doing as a student. Its limited range
and speed is likely to be frustrating as your intended mission evolves.

I think for most new pilots the sweet spot for purchasing is the simple
fixed-pitch, non-retractable 4-seat single, like a 172, Cherokee,
Sundowner, Tiger, etc.

Just my opinion, worth what you paid. Everybody's different.

[RST Engineering]

Get the fixer-upper after you find a good A&P/IA willing to work with you on
owner repair and owner assisted annuals. In two years you will know more
about airplanes than renters with ten years and a thousand hours under their
belts.

That is, if you don't mind grease under your fingernails {;-)

Jim

--
"If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right."
--Henry Ford


> wrote in message
oups.com...

>I am currently taking flying lessons. I would like to own my own
> aircraft

[[email protected]]

I am early in my training and have not even soloed yet. I would not
even consider buying anything until after I have earned my
certificate. So sometime next year would probably be the earliest that
I would be seriously looking. I do agree that what I may want to own
as a first aircraft may change as my training progresses.

I am curious about the comment by newps about flying an aircraft where
the engine is past its TBO. Even if the compression is good, aren't
you taking a chance that something else may be getting worn out.
Maybe I am misunderstanding what TBO means.



On Aug 25, 8:41 pm, wrote:
> I am currently taking flying lessons. I would like to own my own
> aircraft and have been considering various options.
> I am currently training in a 152 and I think a 150 or 152 would be a
> fun first plane to build time with.
> The 150/152's that appear to be in good condition seem to be in the
> 35k range while ones that seem a little more used up are in the 15-20k
> range.
> I am just wondering if it would be better buy a good condition ready
> to fly aircraft for 35k or go for a less expensive one and put 20-25k
> into getting it fixed up.
>
> My thought is with the fixer up route, I would have a better idea of
> what I am starting with once it is fixed up. I may not know with one I
> would pay 35k for and fly away with. The plan would be to fly the
> aircraft for a few years and then trade up.

[randall g]

On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 12:22:30 -0700, wrote:

>I am curious about the comment by newps about flying an aircraft where
>the engine is past its TBO. Even if the compression is good, aren't
>you taking a chance that something else may be getting worn out.
>Maybe I am misunderstanding what TBO means.


http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/savvy_aviator_45_how_risky_is_going_past_tbo_19524 1-1.html

(may require free registration at avweb)

The Deakin and Busch columns are required reading for owners.





randall g =%^)> PPASEL+Night 1974 Cardinal RG
http://www.telemark.net/randallg
Lots of aerial photographs of British Columbia at:
http://www.telemark.net/randallg/photos.htm
Vancouver's famous Kat Kam: http://www.katkam.ca

[Newps]

wrote:
> I am early in my training and have not even soloed yet. I would not
> even consider buying anything until after I have earned my
> certificate. So sometime next year would probably be the earliest that
> I would be seriously looking. I do agree that what I may want to own
> as a first aircraft may change as my training progresses.


Probably not. During PPL training you are fixated on getting your
ticket. Getting a 172 now is not out of the question. A 172 that is
reasonably well maintained is like money. They are very easy to get rid
of if you decide you don't want it. Hell, I want one as a second plane.
They are so simple a machine and dirt cheap to operate, especially if
you can run mogas like we can here in Montana. It isn't until after you
get your ticket and start venturing out that you will start to realize
what it is what you want from a plane.


>
> I am curious about the comment by newps about flying an aircraft where
> the engine is past its TBO. Even if the compression is good, aren't
> you taking a chance that something else may be getting worn out.
> Maybe I am misunderstanding what TBO means.


You take the chance every time you start the engine, regardless of
engine time. The engine on my Bonanza last August was at about 700
SMOH. One of the cylinders suffered a barrel/head separation. Due to
an unbelievably lucky sequence of events I got six new Milleniums and
installation for free. With an engine like what is on an older 172 I
would run it until it tells you it needs to be overhauled. Good
compressions, not leaking/burning oil, etc, keep flying.

[[email protected]]

Excellent article.
I have bookmarked the index for the other articles and look forward to
reading them.

On Aug 26, 7:29 pm, randall g > wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 12:22:30 -0700, wrote:
> >I am curious about the comment by newps about flying an aircraft where
> >the engine is past its TBO. Even if the compression is good, aren't
> >you taking a chance that something else may be getting worn out.
> >Maybe I am misunderstanding what TBO means.
>
> http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/savvy_aviator_45_how_risky_is_...
>
> (may require free registration at avweb)
>
> The Deakin and Busch columns are required reading for owners.
>
> randall g =%^)> PPASEL+Night 1974 Cardinal RGhttp://www.telemark.net/randallg
> Lots of aerial photographs of British Columbia at:http://www.telemark.net/randallg/photos.htm
> Vancouver's famous Kat Kam:http://www.katkam.ca

[Jon Woellhaf]

> wrote
....
>I am early in my training and have not even soloed yet. I would not
> even consider buying anything until after I have earned my
> certificate.

Why not? I bought my 182 before I had my Private.

Jon

[[email protected]]

Jon Woellhaf > wrote:
: > wrote
: ...
: >I am early in my training and have not even soloed yet. I would not
: > even consider buying anything until after I have earned my
: > certificate.

: Why not? I bought my 182 before I had my Private.

It's the cheapest way to learn to fly. Of course it comes with the normal issues of plane ownership (education
before purchase, maintenance, chance of having large annual expenses, etc). Ignoring those as "things you would have to
learn anyway," the only drawback is having a few more things to consider during your training if your plane has issues.
Otherwise, there are lots of plusses... you can fly *A LOT* more on your student license because the direct cost per hour is
much lower. You come to know one plane very well rather than swapping around different rentals. You will be putting lots of
hours on in a short period of time... good for an airplane. etc, etc.

Although I rented for my private ticket, I spent the last half of it looking for a plane to buy (with 2 other
partners). By the time we'd found one, it was simply easier to prepare for my checkride than to get checked out in my own
plane (I was flying 172's and bought a PA-28-180). If I had to do it over again, I'd buy a plane (maybe with a partner or
two again) and learn to fly it. Spending $1k on fuel and oil is setter than wasting $4k-$6k on rentals.

The posters who've said, "you don't know what you want" are right to a degree as well. As a student pilot, many are
often happy to have anything that will get them in the air. Talking with other pilots and owners will help make your
decision. Besides.... if you buy a Cherokee for $30-35k, put 150-200 hours on it in 1-2 years and get your ticket in it,
it's not worth much less than it was when you bought it except the maintenance you had to do on it.

-Cory


--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Mike Spera]

wrote:
> I am currently taking flying lessons. I would like to own my own
> aircraft and have been considering various options.
> .stuff snipped

We (wife and I) bought ours to train in and to keep afterward. With no
kids, a Cherokee 140 still fits our profile. Paint, interior, radios,
and other upgrades and 14 years later, it is still a keeper for us.

Other encourage buying one to learn in. That topic has been well hashed.
For some, it works. For others the distraction of owning while training
(and presumably keeping a "day job") may be overwhelming. Opinions vary.

Likely once you have your ticket, you will want to go somewhere. Mission
length, how many pax and bags you take, terrain elevation, runway
lengths, and other considerations may be vastly different than the plane
you trained in can handle. Rent a couple of examples. Find others with
planes that may suit you and talk their ear off.

It is almost always significantly less expensive to buy something ready
to go with a solid pedigree than trying to "fix something up". Few
realize how much things actually cost, pay too much for a junker, and
wind up behind the 8-ball financially. If the spread between a
particular model is $15k, ask yourself if you really have $15-$25k spare
cash on hand AND you can pay the note you may have taken out to buy the
beast AND you can afford gas, AND you can afford maintenance while you
are fixing it up AND you can keep up with all your other bills. Remember
that the shiny new paint job someone paid $8,000 for may be actually
only worth about half that amount if they wind up selling the plane
right out of the paint shop. Same holds true for most avionics, engine
overhauls, interiors, speed mods, etc. Wouldn't you rather be on the
receiving end of that calculation? Some say to fix it up yourself so
that you "know what you have got". You know all right, you have a BIG
list of bills. As I have stated before though, most simple pistons
single airplanes for sale are flying junk. Actually finding something in
decent shape can be a challenge.

Several posters will tout their tale of how they did it on a shoestring.
The ones who took a financial bath don't brag about their failures here
on the 'Net. I suspect there are quite a few who got underwater with a
"fixer upper". And for those who succeeded, I say "Great job!". But
perhaps you should consider that they got lucky, had an "inside" with a
local mechanic, or had the skills and tools (and willing mechanic) to do
the work themselves. Do YOU have those things? When you don't know what
to look for in a fixer upper, don't know how to fix things yourself, and
don't know how/where to shop for parts, you can get seriously under
water. Paying "retail" (A.K.A. "handing the keys to the local FBO") can
also bust a budget pretty quickly.

As I said, look over the fleet via renting. Patience rarely fails to
produce the best outcome in aviation ownership.

Good Luck,
Mike

[Paul kgyy]

As a general rule, you never get out of an airplane what you put into
"fixing it up" unless you can do the work yourself. Avionics in
particular only retain 50 cents on the dollar invested. Engine
overhauls do better, as do cosmetics, but you never get 100% back in
terms of resale value.

Much cheaper in the long run to buy the plane you want. If you know
exactly what you want, however, it'll take a long time to find it.
Used aircraft are like old houses, with weird add-ons that make you
think, "What was he thinking when he had that installed?".

The only advantages to fixing are that 1. you do get to choose your
installer/overhauler, and that does make a difference in the quality
of the result; and 2. you get to choose exactly what equipment you
want.

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul kgyy ]
> Posted At: Sunday, September 02, 2007 4:07 PM
> Posted To: rec.aviation.owning
> Conversation: Buying recently rebuilt or fixing one up?
> Subject: Re: Buying recently rebuilt or fixing one up?
>
> As a general rule, you never get out of an airplane what you put into
> "fixing it up" unless you can do the work yourself. Avionics in
> particular only retain 50 cents on the dollar invested. Engine
> overhauls do better, as do cosmetics, but you never get 100% back in
> terms of resale value.
>
> Much cheaper in the long run to buy the plane you want. If you know
> exactly what you want, however, it'll take a long time to find it.
> Used aircraft are like old houses, with weird add-ons that make you
> think, "What was he thinking when he had that installed?".
>
> The only advantages to fixing are that 1. you do get to choose your
> installer/overhauler, and that does make a difference in the quality
> of the result; and 2. you get to choose exactly what equipment you
> want.

Another advantage to fixing one up deals with cashflow. It might be
possible to buy an aircraft that will need an engine in 400 or so hours
if you most likely will do an STC upgrade to a different engine at that
time. It could be a lot cheaper to buy with the smaller engine, build
time with lower operational costs, reduce the insurance charges (by
building time), and then put in the bigger engine later.

Of course I'm not talking about buying a project plane, but one that
could safely be flown for a few years before needing the engine upgrade.