Yeager Oops

[Bob McKellar]

For the "It can happen to anybody" file-----

http://www.gainesvilletimes.com/news/stories/20031003/localnews/379960.html

Does anybody here know what type the plane was?

Bob McKellar

[NATrainer]

T-6
The North American Trainer Association is a (501)[c]3 association dedicated to
the restoration, preservation and safe flying of all North American Aviation
built trainer aircraft (AT-6, SNJ, Harvard, NA-64, T-28, TF-51, TB-25). Dues
are $45.00 per year US

[Mike Marron]

>Bob McKellar > wrote:

>For the "It can happen to anybody" file-----

>http://www.gainesvilletimes.com/news/stories/20031003/localnews/379960.html

***************

"It was something else to put an aircraft down like that and get up
and walk away from it....."

***************


Classic, CLASSIC Yeager!!

[Erik Pfeister]

> T-6


Would love to see what the female passenger looked like!

[Dudley Henriques]

"NATrainer" > wrote in message
...
> T-6

If it WAS a T6, as you already know I'm sure, the ole' Tex can bite you in
the butt in an instant if you get distracted by ANYTHING at all during the
rollout after landing. It will be interesting to find out exactly where
during the rollout this occurred. My bet would be on the low end of the
speed bleed as the airplane was slowing down after touchdown. There's a
"point" during the rollout in a T6 where the rudder goes south on you and
you damn well better be ready with some fast feet if the wind is blowing
across the runway !!
I've heard Yeager say many times that when he flies the 51 and the T6, he
has to remind himself to be VERY alert on landings, since in the jets you
have a tendency to get lazy with the nosewheel working for you :-))
As I said, it will be interesting hearing the "right stuff" on this incident
as it comes to light. This has the makings to add to the already legendary
tales of T6's biting the best of us who have flown them. If nothing else, it
will serve to get everybody in the warbird community flying who is flying
this great and wonderful airplane (if you're VERY careful of course :-)) to
tighten up their landing safety practices a bit....might even help preserve
some sheet metal if you know what I mean.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired
For personal e-mail, use
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt
(replacezwithe)

[Chris Mark]

>From: "Erik Pfeister"

>Would love to see what the female passenger looked like!

Probably one of these young wanton hussies, 71 or 72 years old.


Chris Mark

[MLenoch]

Do any T-6/SNJs exist that never had a wing tip "touch the earth"?

VL

[Paul Hirose]

Apparently the airplane passenger was Yeager's wife. The Atlanta
Journal-Constitution says:

"Yeager, 80, had a bump on his head but neither he nor his wife,
Victoria, was seriously injured in the accident at Heaven's Landing,
said Mike Ciochetti Jr., the developer of the community."

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/1003/03yeager.html

http://www.11alive.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=37435

--

Paul Hirose >

[OXMORON1]

You people have it all wrong!
Paul Harvey sez it was a "new trainer" and we all know Paul Harvey is never
wrong.
Then again anything less than 60 years old could be "new" to Paul Harvey.

Oxmoron1

[Bela P. Havasreti]

On 03 Oct 2003 16:14:58 GMT, (MLenoch) wrote:

There are probably a number of them parked in static museums
around the world.... <grins>

Bela P. Havasreti

>Do any T-6/SNJs exist that never had a wing tip "touch the earth"?
>
>VL

[Corey C. Jordan]

At 80 years old, Yeager may have to take a hard look at whether or not
age is cutting into his abilities. A friend of mine is 82, and recently quit
flying after he "found myself chasing after the airplane instead of flying it."

Nothing worse than having to deal with the effects of aging on something
you absolutely love to do. It's a shame. I remember when I had to take my
Father's car keys away after a series of fender-benders. He was devastated
at the loss of his independence, despite the fact that someone was always
there to drive him anywhere he wanted to go. It was heart breaking to do it, but
the alternative was worse. Even great pilots like Chuck Yeager reach a point
when it's time to curtail flying or fly less demanding types.

I'm glad he and his wife were no worse for the wear.

My regards,

Widewing (C.C. Jordan)
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
http://www.cradleofaviation.org

[Cub Driver]

** Report created 10/3/2003 Record 3 **

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 28310 Make/Model: T6 Description: T-6, AT-6, BC-1,
SNJ, TEXAN, HARVARD
Date: 10/02/2003 Time: 1930
Event Type: Incident Highest Injury: Minor Mid Air: N
Missing: N
Damage: Unknown

LOCATION
City: CLAYTON State: GA Country: US

DESCRIPTION
AFTER LANDING AT HEAVEN'S LANDING (PVT), THE ACFT RAN OFF THE RUNWAY.
CLAYTON, GA

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 1 Unk:
# Pass: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 1 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
WEATHER: RELAYED AS SEVERE CLEAR

OTHER DATA
Activity: Pleasure Phase: Landing Operation: General
Aviation
Departed: GA62 Dep Date: Dep. Time:
Destination: UNKN Flt Plan: NONE Wx Briefing: N
Last Radio Cont: NONE Last Clearance: NONE
FAA FSDO: COLLEGE PARK, GA (SO11) Entry date: 10/03/2003

FMI: www.heavenslanding.net, www.aviationautographs.com


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Yes, it was a T-6. The accident report is shown in the Aero-News
story:

http://tinyurl.com/pot6

or:


http://www.aero-news.net/news/genav.cfm?ContentBlockID=7174a9de-31af-45d5-b005-25e1ba6aecde&Dynamic=1


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Erik Pfeister]

> >
>
> Victoria? I thought his wife's name was Glennis ...


Glennis died many years ago.
>

[vincent p. norris]

On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 15:28:16 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> wrote:

>If it WAS a T6, as you already know I'm sure, the ole' Tex can bite you in
>the butt in an instant if you get distracted by ANYTHING at all during the
>rollout after landing. It will be interesting to find out exactly where
>during the rollout this occurred. My bet would be on the low end of the
>speed bleed as the airplane was slowing down after touchdown. There's a
>"point" during the rollout in a T6 where the rudder goes south on you and
>you damn well better be ready with some fast feet if the wind is blowing
>across the runway !!

I'm sure you have more time in the SNJ than I have, but ever since I
went through Navy basic in one, I've thought of it as a pretty docile
airplane.

Kids who had never been in an airplane were soloing it in about 12
hours, so it couldn't have been very difficult to fly or land; and if
there were any groundloops while I was there, there were so few of
them I have no memory of them.

Perhaps it was because we learned to three-point it. In fact, our
instructors were happiest if we "one-pointed" it, with the tail wheel
hitting first.

vince norris

[[email protected]]

Glennis was also his ex-wife when she died, IIRC.

[Dudley Henriques]

"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 15:28:16 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> > wrote:
>
> >If it WAS a T6, as you already know I'm sure, the ole' Tex can bite you
in
> >the butt in an instant if you get distracted by ANYTHING at all during
the
> >rollout after landing. It will be interesting to find out exactly where
> >during the rollout this occurred. My bet would be on the low end of the
> >speed bleed as the airplane was slowing down after touchdown. There's a
> >"point" during the rollout in a T6 where the rudder goes south on you and
> >you damn well better be ready with some fast feet if the wind is blowing
> >across the runway !!
>
> I'm sure you have more time in the SNJ than I have, but ever since I
> went through Navy basic in one, I've thought of it as a pretty docile
> airplane.
>
> Kids who had never been in an airplane were soloing it in about 12
> hours, so it couldn't have been very difficult to fly or land; and if
> there were any groundloops while I was there, there were so few of
> them I have no memory of them.
>
> Perhaps it was because we learned to three-point it. In fact, our
> instructors were happiest if we "one-pointed" it, with the tail wheel
> hitting first.
>
> vince norris

I would respectfully disagree with you on this assessment of the T6.
Although it's true that any competent pilot flying this airplane on a steady
basis should be able to handle it with no particular problems; and it's not
a particularly difficult airplane to fly; the aircraft itself was designed
to require an "extra" amount of attention from it's pilots in preparation
for transition into higher performance singles. Part of this "extra
attention" comes in the form of being able to handle an extremely narrow
gear spread on the ground; coupled with a fairly long arm fuselage going
back to the tailwheel. I've given about 700 hours of dual in T6's. I've seen
this airplane bite more than one pilot with what I would call "ample"
abilities. :-))))
The problem occurs in roll out as the speed bleeds down past rudder
effectiveness when a sizable crosswind component is present. This in itself
isn't a particular problem if the pilot is literally "on his toes" :-) but
can easily be the cause of the airplane getting ahead of you in swerve if
you get caught napping. If this happens, you can have a real handful of
airplane REAL FAST!!!!
In fact, the inherent trait of the T6 to get ahead of an unwary pilot on
landing in these conditions was great enough that we paid even greater
attention to it on checkouts than the 51 on landing; where the 51's wide
gear spread contributed to much greater straight ahead tracking. In our
business we had a motto. If you could handle the T6 from the back seat on
landing on a narrow hard surfaced runway, you should be a breeze in the
Mustang.
I believe with my experience as a checkout pilot in this airplane that I
could make a very good case for the argument that postulates that the good
safety record you are referring to for the T6 can be directly tied to a
superior checkout program in this airplane, given by VERY good instructors.
Remember, even back in the old days, either in the Navy with the SNJ or the
AirForce with the T6.....you didn't touch a T6 until you had gotten passed
primary and they felt you could handle the airplane. Also remember that when
you got there, although you had passed primary ok, you were just BEGINNING
with the AT6. That's why thay call the airplane th AT6!
AT standing for "Advanced Trainer" :-))
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

[B25flyer]

>
>Glennis was also his ex-wife when she died, IIRC.

Think you might want to check your facts. Glennis passed awy in December 1990
from cancer and she was not an ex.

[buf3]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message . net>...
> "vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 15:28:16 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >If it WAS a T6, as you already know I'm sure, the ole' Tex can bite you
> in
> > >the butt in an instant if you get distracted by ANYTHING at all during
> the
> > >rollout after landing. It will be interesting to find out exactly where
> > >during the rollout this occurred. My bet would be on the low end of the
> > >speed bleed as the airplane was slowing down after touchdown. There's a
> > >"point" during the rollout in a T6 where the rudder goes south on you and
> > >you damn well better be ready with some fast feet if the wind is blowing
> > >across the runway !!
> >
> > I'm sure you have more time in the SNJ than I have, but ever since I
> > went through Navy basic in one, I've thought of it as a pretty docile
> > airplane.
> >
> > Kids who had never been in an airplane were soloing it in about 12
> > hours, so it couldn't have been very difficult to fly or land; and if
> > there were any groundloops while I was there, there were so few of
> > them I have no memory of them.
> >
> > Perhaps it was because we learned to three-point it. In fact, our
> > instructors were happiest if we "one-pointed" it, with the tail wheel
> > hitting first.
> >
> > vince norris
>
> I would respectfully disagree with you on this assessment of the T6.
> Although it's true that any competent pilot flying this airplane on a steady
> basis should be able to handle it with no particular problems; and it's not
> a particularly difficult airplane to fly; the aircraft itself was designed
> to require an "extra" amount of attention from it's pilots in preparation
> for transition into higher performance singles. Part of this "extra
> attention" comes in the form of being able to handle an extremely narrow
> gear spread on the ground; coupled with a fairly long arm fuselage going
> back to the tailwheel. I've given about 700 hours of dual in T6's. I've seen
> this airplane bite more than one pilot with what I would call "ample"
> abilities. :-))))
> The problem occurs in roll out as the speed bleeds down past rudder
> effectiveness when a sizable crosswind component is present. This in itself
> isn't a particular problem if the pilot is literally "on his toes" :-) but
> can easily be the cause of the airplane getting ahead of you in swerve if
> you get caught napping. If this happens, you can have a real handful of
> airplane REAL FAST!!!!
> In fact, the inherent trait of the T6 to get ahead of an unwary pilot on
> landing in these conditions was great enough that we paid even greater
> attention to it on checkouts than the 51 on landing; where the 51's wide
> gear spread contributed to much greater straight ahead tracking. In our
> business we had a motto. If you could handle the T6 from the back seat on
> landing on a narrow hard surfaced runway, you should be a breeze in the
> Mustang.
> I believe with my experience as a checkout pilot in this airplane that I
> could make a very good case for the argument that postulates that the good
> safety record you are referring to for the T6 can be directly tied to a
> superior checkout program in this airplane, given by VERY good instructors.
> Remember, even back in the old days, either in the Navy with the SNJ or the
> AirForce with the T6.....you didn't touch a T6 until you had gotten passed
> primary and they felt you could handle the airplane. Also remember that when
> you got there, although you had passed primary ok, you were just BEGINNING
> with the AT6. That's why thay call the airplane th AT6!
> AT standing for "Advanced Trainer" :-))
> Dudley Henriques
> International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
> Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
> For personal email, please replace
> the z's with e's.
> dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

===========
I was in pilot training class 56U. We flew the T6 in primary after
about 14 hours in the PA-18. A lot of solo students joined the "garden
club" by losing directional control on the landing roll. The first
crash I ever saw was called a "rudder trim tab stall" in a T6. A
student let the torque, lack of trim, and lack of nose down control
get him on a go-around. He added power and his nose pitched up and
left into a stall. We were at a little dirt strip at Castroville, TX
standing about 50 yards from the crash. The plane was in bad shape,
the student was unhurt.

Gene Myers

[vincent p. norris]

>> I'm sure you have more time in the SNJ than I have, but ever since I
>> went through Navy basic in one, I've thought of it as a pretty docile
>> airplane.
>>
>> Kids who had never been in an airplane were soloing it in about 12
>> hours, so it couldn't have been very difficult to fly or land; and if
>> there were any groundloops while I was there, there were so few of
>> them I have no memory of them.
>>
>> Perhaps it was because we learned to three-point it. In fact, our
>> instructors were happiest if we "one-pointed" it, with the tail wheel
>> hitting first.
>>
>> vince norris
>
>I would respectfully disagree with you on this assessment of the T6.

And I must respectfully disagree with you.

You don't seem to have read my posting very carefully.

> an extremely narrow gear spread on the ground;

I don't see how you can call it an "extremely narrow gear spread." It
may have been narrower than that of a P-51, P-47 or SB2C, but was
hardly "extremely narrow." The Bf 109 gear was "extremely narrow."

>The problem occurs in roll out as the speed bleeds down past rudder
>effectiveness

You seem to be talking about wheel landings. I said we learned to
land with the tail wheel solidly on the ground, and keep it there.

>Remember, even back in the old days, either in the Navy with the SNJ or the
>AirForce with the T6.....you didn't touch a T6 until you had gotten passed
>primary and they felt you could handle the airplane.

Again, you don't seem to have read my posting. I said that kids WHO
HAD NEVER BEEN IN AN AIRPLANE were soloing the SNJ in about 12 hours.

I suspect that something quite unusual caused Yeager's accident.
Perhaps a blown tire or a bad brake.

vince norris

[Dudley Henriques]

"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
...
> >> I'm sure you have more time in the SNJ than I have, but ever since I
> >> went through Navy basic in one, I've thought of it as a pretty docile
> >> airplane.
> >>
> >> Kids who had never been in an airplane were soloing it in about 12
> >> hours, so it couldn't have been very difficult to fly or land; and if
> >> there were any groundloops while I was there, there were so few of
> >> them I have no memory of them.
> >>
> >> Perhaps it was because we learned to three-point it. In fact, our
> >> instructors were happiest if we "one-pointed" it, with the tail wheel
> >> hitting first.
> >>
> >> vince norris
> >
> >I would respectfully disagree with you on this assessment of the T6.
>
> And I must respectfully disagree with you.
>
> You don't seem to have read my posting very carefully.
>
> > an extremely narrow gear spread on the ground;
>
> I don't see how you can call it an "extremely narrow gear spread." It
> may have been narrower than that of a P-51, P-47 or SB2C, but was
> hardly "extremely narrow." The Bf 109 gear was "extremely narrow."
>
> >The problem occurs in roll out as the speed bleeds down past rudder
> >effectiveness
>
> You seem to be talking about wheel landings. I said we learned to
> land with the tail wheel solidly on the ground, and keep it there.
>
> >Remember, even back in the old days, either in the Navy with the SNJ or
the
> >AirForce with the T6.....you didn't touch a T6 until you had gotten
passed
> >primary and they felt you could handle the airplane.
>
> Again, you don't seem to have read my posting. I said that kids WHO
> HAD NEVER BEEN IN AN AIRPLANE were soloing the SNJ in about 12 hours.
>
> I suspect that something quite unusual caused Yeager's accident.
> Perhaps a blown tire or a bad brake.
>
> vince norris

Please feel free to disagree with me at any time. It's not a contest unless
you make it one.
I'll stand however with my opinion on the T6 if you don't mind, and allow
you your opinion whatever that might be.

All the best to you,
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

[[email protected]]

I didn't state a "fact". Note I wrote "IIRC". Apparently I don't RC. I
thought I read in his biography, what, nearly 20 years ago?, that he &
Glennis divorced in the '50s.

[Ron]

>I was in pilot training class 56U. We flew the T6 in primary after
>about 14 hours in the PA-18. A lot of solo students joined the "garden
>club" by losing directional control on the landing roll. The first
>crash I ever saw was called a "rudder trim tab stall" in a T6. A
>student let the torque, lack of trim, and lack of nose down control
>get him on a go-around. He added power and his nose pitched up and
>left into a stall. We were at a little dirt strip at Castroville, TX
>standing about 50 yards from the crash. The plane was in bad shape,
>the student was unhurt.
>
>Gene Myers

Small world. I flew parachuters from Castroville end of 2001. A tornado
recently hit the airport.

Were you in pilot training at Hondo? I flew there earlier in 2001 on a cloud
seeding project, right before the airport was...ahem..hit by a tornado.



Ron
Pilot/Wildland Firefighter

[Dudley Henriques]

"Ron" > wrote in message
...

> Were you in pilot training at Hondo? I flew there earlier in 2001 on a
cloud
> seeding project, right before the airport was...ahem..hit by a tornado.

> Ron
> Pilot/Wildland Firefighter

A tornado??? See.......!!! That cloud seeding will get ya EVERY time!!!!!!
:-))))
Next thing you know, they'll be cloning sheep!!!! :-)))))

Reminds me of the story of two Indians, back in the forties,each sending
smoke signals from two different mountain tops spanning the desert at White
Sands. Suddenly, the atom bomb test goes off between them. "WOW", said one
to himself,"I wish to hell I"D said THAT!!!!!"
:-))))
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

[Ron]

>"Ron" > wrote in message
...
>
>> Were you in pilot training at Hondo? I flew there earlier in 2001 on a
>cloud
>> seeding project, right before the airport was...ahem..hit by a tornado.
>
>> Ron
>> Pilot/Wildland Firefighter
>
>A tornado??? See.......!!! That cloud seeding will get ya EVERY time!!!!!!
>:-))))
>Next thing you know, they'll be cloning sheep!!!! :-)))))
>

haha...actually the tornado happened right after I delivered the plane back to
Fargo ND at the right after the end of the seeding contract...Well obviously
not the end of the storm season, since that tornado hit the airport right when
i got back.

I did however get back from a seeding mission to find the WW2 hangar we used,
to be quite on fire. Did manage to move my car just in time, but lots of
planes were lot, not the mention that very large hangar with lots of military
stenciling to still be found all around in there.
Avweb.com published the photos I took of the hangar upon my return. Even found
some writing in the concrete next to the hangar from a 1943 navigator class.

Was probably an electrical short in some of that old wiring and then that old
wood really took off and the hangar was completely destroyed.

Cloud seeding into thunderstorms sure was interesting and rather educational
too for knowing the dynamics of thunderstorm development and how it related to
aviation.

One of my copilots is now at Kingville NAS for instrument training and I think
all of his friends and instructors have heard all the stories, especially a
certain case of nausea I had after a very early and very unexpected flight on a
early sunday morning that utilized a empty beef jerky bag.


Ron
Pilot/Wildland Firefighter