Re: Ditching Gear Down

[Dave Kearton]

"Mike Keown" > wrote in message
...
> Question: You are forced to ditch in a a/c
> with fixed landing gear. The sea is calm and
> search and rescue are aware of your situation
> and location. How do you put 'her' down?
> Mike
>
>
--



Mike - are you declaring an emergency at this time ? ;-)







Cheers

Dave Kearton

[George Z. Bush]

Dave Kearton wrote:
> "Mike Keown" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Question: You are forced to ditch in a a/c
>> with fixed landing gear. The sea is calm and
>> search and rescue are aware of your situation
>> and location. How do you put 'her' down?
>> Mike

Verrry carefully. (^-^))) Since the sea is calm, there likely wouldn't be any
wind to speak of, so looking for swells and troughs wouldn't be a problem. Just
maintain airspeed high enough to maintain control and try to three point her in.

George Z.
(former ARS pilot)

[[email protected]]

"Dave Kearton" >
wrote:

>
>
>"Mike Keown" > wrote in message
...
>> Question: You are forced to ditch in a a/c
>> with fixed landing gear. The sea is calm and
>> search and rescue are aware of your situation
>> and location. How do you put 'her' down?
>> Mike
>>
>>
Along the smooth side of the swell (if any), as slow as possible
while maintaining just enough speed to assure that you don't
stall...repeat after me..."Our father who art...."
--

-Gord.

[QDurham]

>How do you put 'her' down?

Get out of your parachute. Get canopy open and/or door unlatched. Tighten
belts. If sitting on life preserver, cushion or whateve, try to remember how
to get the miserable thing out and useful. Keep screaming on the radio.
Promise yourself that if you survive, you'll never forget to put the goddam
filler cap back on properly, and at first opportunity, reconsider future form
of employment, if any.

Quent

[QDurham]

I forgot. When (not if) you snap inverted up[on hitting the waater, try to
remember that safety is DOWN. Swim that way. Yes yes I know it goes against
the grain, but clawing holes in the cabin's carpet trying to get UP is
generally a waste of time and fingernails. And of course, if you get around to
it, apologize to your passengers with sincerity and feeling.

Quent

[QDurham]

And I forget again. You may have trouble deciding, amid the confusion, which
way actually is "down." Sort of a true/false question with significant
consequences. Look around you. Fishes generally swim upright. Take a clue
from them. Even 20 foot long sharks rarely roll inverted before nibbling at
their dinner.

Quent

[R Haskin]

If you've got a parachute, what are you ditching for, anyway? Jumping out
is a lit less risky than ditching a fixed-gear airplane which will almost
surely flip over once it touches down...


"QDurham" > wrote in message
...
> >How do you put 'her' down?
>
> Get out of your parachute. Get canopy open and/or door unlatched. Tighten
> belts. If sitting on life preserver, cushion or whateve, try to remember
how
> to get the miserable thing out and useful. Keep screaming on the radio.
> Promise yourself that if you survive, you'll never forget to put the
goddam
> filler cap back on properly, and at first opportunity, reconsider future
form
> of employment, if any.
>
> Quent

[Keith Willshaw]

"QDurham" > wrote in message
...
> >How do you put 'her' down?
>
> Get out of your parachute. Get canopy open and/or door unlatched. Tighten
> belts. If sitting on life preserver, cushion or whateve, try to remember
how
> to get the miserable thing out and useful. Keep screaming on the radio.
> Promise yourself that if you survive, you'll never forget to put the
goddam
> filler cap back on properly, and at first opportunity, reconsider future
form
> of employment, if any.
>
> Quent

It seems to have happened to 3 ex FAA aircrew yesterday
when they had to ditch their Cessna 172 after its engine
failed over the Western Channel

All 3 were picked up by a fishing boat and one reported having
to make an underwater escape from the sinking aircraft

Given that the youngest of them was 79 they did rather well

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/3163840.stm

Keith

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Ditching Gear Down
>From: "George Z. Bush"
>Date: 10/4/03 8:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Dave Kearton wrote:
>> "Mike Keown" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Question: You are forced to ditch in a a/c
>>> with fixed landing gear. The sea is calm and
>>> search and rescue are aware of your situation
>>> and location. How do you put 'her' down?
>>> Mike
>
>Verrry carefully. (^-^))) Since the sea is calm, there likely wouldn't be
>any
>wind to speak of, so looking for swells and troughs wouldn't be a problem.
>Just
>maintain airspeed high enough to maintain control and try to three point her
>in.
>
>George Z.
>(former ARS pilot)
>
>

If you have a Mae West bail out then there is no chance of your getting trapped
in a sinking plane. Remember to whack the quick chute release when hitting the
water then pull the air bottle releases to inflate the Mae West keeping
your eye out for Air-Sea rescue all the while. If you have no Mae West get you
boots off and dump your .45 so they don't pull you down.. Send me a postcard if
you make it. I'll be in the officers club wondering how you made out.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Erik Pfeister]

And we thought WWII was over! Someone please tell this chap.

Don't fly over water is the best solution.


"ArtKramr" wrote in message

> If you have a Mae West bail out If you have no Mae West get you
> boots off and dump your .45 I'll be in the officers club

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Erik Pfeister wrote:
> And we thought WWII was over! Someone please tell this chap.


We've tried. He's a stubborn cuss.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN


http://www.mortimerschnerd.com

[Dale]

In article >,
"R Haskin" > wrote:

> If you've got a parachute, what are you ditching for, anyway? Jumping out
> is a lit less risky than ditching a fixed-gear airplane which will almost
> surely flip over once it touches down...

I'm assuming you've never made a parachute jump into water. I have, you
can die quite easily unless you know what you're doing. And, most
people who would be wearing a parachute (not including the military
here) would have a rig that has NO quick disconnects for the risers or
harness which is going to make things even harder.

I don't believe the stats are going to support your statement that the
airplane will "almost surely flip over".

If you fly over water you should attend a survival course that teaches
ditching evacuation using a "dilbert dunker" type device. Very
enlightening, after doing so I quit flying over water. <G>

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[william cogswell]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
news:blosl3$jie$1
>
> "QDurham" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >How do you put 'her' down?
> >
> It seems to have happened to 3 ex FAA aircrew yesterday
> when they had to ditch their Cessna 172 after its engine
> failed over the Western Channel
>
> All 3 were picked up by a fishing boat and one reported having
> to make an underwater escape from the sinking aircraft
>
> Given that the youngest of them was 79 they did rather well
>
I alos seem too have seen some footage of several cessna 172 type a/c
ditching, The one that stands out the gentelman made a beautiful ditching
the a/c pitched forward but reamained upright for several minutes

[Alan Minyard]

On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 17:18:21 GMT, "william cogswell" >
wrote:

>
>"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
>news:blosl3$jie$1
>>
>> "QDurham" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > >How do you put 'her' down?
>> >
>> It seems to have happened to 3 ex FAA aircrew yesterday
>> when they had to ditch their Cessna 172 after its engine
>> failed over the Western Channel
>>
>> All 3 were picked up by a fishing boat and one reported having
>> to make an underwater escape from the sinking aircraft
>>
>> Given that the youngest of them was 79 they did rather well
>>
> I alos seem too have seen some footage of several cessna 172 type a/c
>ditching, The one that stands out the gentelman made a beautiful ditching
>the a/c pitched forward but reamained upright for several minutes
>
Of course now you can buy a chute for your AIRPLANE! I don't know if
any of you have seen them, but they mount on top of the wing, and are
controlled from the cockpit. They were originally designed for Cessna
drivers going over the Sierra, where the "margin for error" is about
zero. If used by someone flying over water they would allow for a zero
airspeed ditching.

Al Minyard

[Mike Marron]

>"william cogswell" > wrote:

>I alos seem too have seen some footage of several cessna 172 type a/c
>ditching, The one that stands out the gentelman made a beautiful ditching
>the a/c pitched forward but reamained upright for several minutes

On a tricycle, due to the CG location aft of the main landing gear
when the main wheels impact the water surface this usually forces the
nosewheel down into the drink and causes the A/C to immediately
tumble end over end in the water. On a taildragger, due to the CG
location aft of the main landing gear, a taildragger can literally
lightly skim the water with the mains w/o instantly flipping over
instantly like a tricycle would. Although there may be a slight
pitching down motion when the main wheels skim the surface, a skillful
taildragger pilot is able to delicately balance this nose down moment
with that of the aft CG induced tail low moment. Of course, after the
second or third skip and the taildragger loses airflow over the wings
and control surfaces, he too is gonna tumble end over end regardless
of skill.

The first thing I noticed when the nose gear dropped inadvertantly on
an experimental amphib (open-cockpit) that I had just landed in a
fresh water lake was the bow of the floats submarining into the drink.
Since it was a hot day, the cold water rushing up to chest level was
sorta' refreshing, actually. I simply came off the throttle and let
the craft re-surface via the buoyancy of the pontoons, manually raised
the nose-gear and launched again. The other time I was forced down
over a swamp when the fan stopped. I had just enough altitude to make
two turns -- one 90-deg turn towards civilization and one more 90-deg.
turn into the wind. After one final quick tug on my seatbelt for good
measure, the next thing I knew I was upside down hanging from the
belt. I walked (er' sloshed and waded) away with nothing more than
a nasty bruise across my groin where the belt held me. Great fun was
had by all during the recovery and salvage operation but others
haven't been quite so lucky.

The bottom line is that there are too many variables to answer the
original question asking what to do when ditching in a calm sea with
a fixed landing gear airplane. Tons of material regarding ditching
procedures out there, however, as others have pointed out in this
thread, "not panicking" is the #1 priority. Perhaps the next priority
would be to make your own Dilbert Dunker training apparatus and
practice underwater egress procedures and techniques before you
go fly over water.

[Mike Marron]

>Mike Marron > wrote:
>>"william cogswell" > wrote:

>>I alos seem too have seen some footage of several cessna 172 type a/c
>>ditching, The one that stands out the gentelman made a beautiful ditching
>>the a/c pitched forward but reamained upright for several minutes

>On a tricycle, due to the CG location aft of the main landing gear
>when the main wheels impact the water surface this usually forces the
>nosewheel down into the drink and causes the A/C to immediately
>tumble end over end in the water.

Correction: that should read, "...due to the FORWARD CG (relative to
the mains) on a tri-gear A/C the nosewheel will be forced down into
the drink and cause the hapless A/C to immediately tumble end over
end.

>On a taildragger, due to the CG
>location aft of the main landing gear, a taildragger can literally
>lightly skim the water with the mains w/o instantly flipping over
>instantly like a tricycle would. Although there may be a slight
>pitching down motion when the main wheels skim the surface, a skillful
>taildragger pilot is able to delicately balance this nose down moment
>with that of the aft CG induced tail low moment. Of course, after the
>second or third skip and the taildragger loses airflow over the wings
>and control surfaces, he too is gonna tumble end over end regardless
>of skill.

>The first thing I noticed when the nose gear dropped inadvertantly on
>an experimental amphib (open-cockpit) that I had just landed in a
>fresh water lake was the bow of the floats submarining into the drink.
>Since it was a hot day, the cold water rushing up to chest level was
>sorta' refreshing, actually. I simply came off the throttle and let
>the craft re-surface via the buoyancy of the pontoons, manually raised
>the nose-gear and launched again. The other time I was forced down
>over a swamp when the fan stopped. I had just enough altitude to make
>two turns -- one 90-deg turn towards civilization and one more 90-deg.
>turn into the wind. After one final quick tug on my seatbelt for good
>measure, the next thing I knew I was upside down hanging from the
>belt. I walked (er' sloshed and waded) away with nothing more than
>a nasty bruise across my groin where the belt held me. Great fun was
>had by all during the recovery and salvage operation but others
>haven't been quite so lucky.
>
>The bottom line is that there are too many variables to answer the
>original question asking what to do when ditching in a calm sea with
>a fixed landing gear airplane. Tons of material regarding ditching
>procedures out there, however, as others have pointed out in this
>thread, "not panicking" is the #1 priority. Perhaps the next priority
>would be to make your own Dilbert Dunker training apparatus and
>practice underwater egress procedures and techniques before you
>go fly over water.

[Mike Marron]

>Alan Minyard > wrote:

>Of course now you can buy a chute for your AIRPLANE! I don't know if
>any of you have seen them, but they mount on top of the wing, and are
>controlled from the cockpit. They were originally designed for Cessna
>drivers going over the Sierra, where the "margin for error" is about
>zero. If used by someone flying over water they would allow for a zero
>airspeed ditching.

We've been flying with Ballistic Recovery Systems (BR$) on light
sport aircraft for many years. The Cessna 172, -152, Cirrus, etc. BR$
chutes for GA aircraft are relatively new:

http://www.airplaneparachutes.com/BRS29.htm

Lots of pros/cons to the BR$ issue. The priceless value of human life
aside, any chute large enough to lower a Cessna 172 plus
humans/baggage, etc. to earth is probably worth more $$$ than the 172
itself (unless it's a brand new '03 $kyhawk Millenium). Backpack
parachutes are essentially worthless in my line of business (due to
the low altitudes and inability free yourself the debris of the
aircraft crumpling around you) however, I'm comfortable flying with
or without a ballistic chute on my bird. I've owned two of them and to
me they're 1) pricy 2) heavy and, 3) dangerous (folks have survived
the crash only to die screaming in the treetops while being burned by
the pyrotechnics). An ACES, Martin Baker even a Weber or Yankee
extraction system would sure be nice to have, tho.

[Dale]

In article >,
Mike Marron > wrote:

> (folks have survived
> the crash only to die screaming in the treetops while being burned by
> the pyrotechnics)

What pryotechnics? The charge that deployed the chute? That is
expended when the chute is fired. Sounds like urban legend.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[Mike Marron]

>Dale > wrote:
>>Mike Marron > wrote:

>>(folks have survived the crash only to die screaming in the treetops
>>while being burned by the pyrotechnics)

>What pryotechnics? The charge that deployed the chute? That is
>expended when the chute is fired. Sounds like urban legend.

It's no urban legend. I personally knew some of these guys whom
have experienced inadvertant BRS launches. I met the guy from Hungary
in the following example at an airshow. His name escapes me but I know
for a fact how he died:

************************************************** *****************************
11-15-00

He elected to take off on a short runway, in windy conditions that
produced known down rotors at the end of the runway. He was not able
to gain sufficient altitude and hit the top of the trees at the end of
the runway. The aircraft broke apart and fell to the ground. Upon
impact with the ground the BRS fired into the ground next to the
trike, creating a fire with fuel supplied by a ruptured fuel tank.
Such an accident could have produced a fire with or without the BRS.
Bottom line, while a tragedy, the fault was clearly pilot error.
************************************************** ******************************



The point is that not unlike all rocket, the thing burns for certain
amount of time before it's expelled. The handle
must be saftied with a pin or wire while on the ground to prevent
accidental firings. And just because it's there doesn't mean you
should use it. As I was going down, I chose to fly it in rather than
fire the chute.

-Mike Marron

For those interested, here is some more info:


************************************************** ********************************
5-9-00

A triker in Hawaii had an accidental deployment in his Edge and was
blown off the coast of Kauai into about 40 feet of water and surf. He
rescued his student from the wreckage and saved him.

The pilot had dropped the control lock- a piece of Velcro about 18
ft. long on the floor of the pod like usual and took off. Only this
time, for some reason, it blew back and was flapping out of the pod,
hooked around the rocket end of the firing chord. When the other end
was caught by the prop it fired the rocket.

The pilot was flying along happily one moment, and was a dangling
piece of **** the next. He heard a loud WOOOSH, looked out, and was
startled to see the whole system being dragged out and then
disappearing in the slipstream. Before he could react, the bridle was
in the prop and instantly destroyed the prop and stopped the engine.
The bridle was stretched with incredible tension between the grip and
the prop hub. In between was the gas tank filler-cap, which was
swiped off, and was the first item to hit the sea.

The trike apparently stopped in mid-air and then dropped like a stone
(a heavy trike), now suspended by it’s prop! As the trike swung
through a number of oscillations, it was pouring 10 gallons of pre-mix
all over the occupants. The pilot reported that the first words from
the student were: I CAN’T SWIM! The trike was drifting over the
coffee fincas on the south shore of Kauai, being blown out to sea.

The pilot claims to have answered: "I’m a skydiver, I’m a scuba diver,
I’m a swimmer and I’m a surfer. Just take a deep breath! Take
another deep breath!"

The trike hit the water in about 40 feet of water and 6 foot swells
and off a rocky shore. It plunged straight down, didn’t even slow
down, until the canopy splashed, at which point the whole mess
stopped. The pilot was already releasing from his harness; he pulled
the student from his, and they went for the surface. Then, the pilot
dropped both intercom headsets and they struggled out of their
flightsuits. The pilot reported that, by the time he got the student
ashore, he had kicked off his Tevas too, and had little energy left.

The machine was recovered by helicopter.

I wanted every detail when I was flying there. If ever the trike
deployed on that side of the island- you’d better be able to swim, due
to strong Trade Winds blowing you towards Niihau. I started flying
with flotation vests for both occupants.
************************************************** ******************************



11-10-00

Stated that there have been 3 deployments of BRS chutes on Airborne
Trikes that he knows of, 2 in the air and 1 on the ground. All 3 were
accidental. The "in the air' deployments were the result of the bridle
working loose of the ties or being pulled into the prop by something
else. The incident in particular he mentioned and I do not have the
exact details happened in Hawaii. The trike was on a tour of the
island when a rope or tie down strap under the seat worked its way to
the back of the trike and went thru the prop. On the way out it fouled
the bridle and pulled the chute out of the canister. The chute
deployed as designed and the trike and both occupants floated down to
the ground.