Becoming AGI then CFII

[Chip H., III]

Hi. If I want to become an AGI and then a CFII, do I really have to
take these 5 exams:

1) Fundamentals of Instructing
2) Ground Instructor Instrument
3) Ground Instructor Advanced
4) Flight Instructor Instrument Airplane
5) Flight Instructor Airplane

I understand that your AGI ticket covers your FOI for the CFII ride,
but do the Ground Instructor Instrument/Advanced tests not cover your
for Flight Instructor Airplane and Instrument Airplane? My
understanding is it's mostly the same material, so worst case you're
just taking duping tests somewhat, right? But do I have to pay $80 *
5 = $400 for what's really 3 tests? :( And is there any time limit on
the validity of the knowledge exams like the 24 month limit for
Private/Commercial?

I was hoping I could take #1-#3 and then use my AGI ticket to cover
all the knowledge exams on the CFII checkride but it appears now.

If you're wondering why bother with AGI when I'm shooting for my CFII,
I like the idea that it never expires.

Any tips appreciated -- thanks!

[Dave S]

While it may not make much sense, pretty much YES.

however.. the Ground Instrument and the flight instrument and flight
instructor instrument tests come from the same test bank, so if you
master the subject matter in the bank, you have no problem with the test.

Also, I've heard but cannot confirm that you can be a CFII without being
a CFI. Someone else can validate or refute that. Not that the average
time builder would really end up NOT getting the CFI on the way to CFII.

And yes, there is a time limit. Passing the Ground tests, you just take
the results to the FSDO and they shall issue. The flight tests, yes are
time limited.

There are instructional currency requirements for the ground isntructor
ratings (yes.. go look) . But its a nice one to have if one day you lose
your medical while working that airline job, just move over to training
peeps in the sim or something like that.



Chip H., III wrote:
> Hi. If I want to become an AGI and then a CFII, do I really have to
> take these 5 exams:
>
> 1) Fundamentals of Instructing
> 2) Ground Instructor Instrument
> 3) Ground Instructor Advanced
> 4) Flight Instructor Instrument Airplane
> 5) Flight Instructor Airplane
>
> I understand that your AGI ticket covers your FOI for the CFII ride,
> but do the Ground Instructor Instrument/Advanced tests not cover your
> for Flight Instructor Airplane and Instrument Airplane? My
> understanding is it's mostly the same material, so worst case you're
> just taking duping tests somewhat, right? But do I have to pay $80 *
> 5 = $400 for what's really 3 tests? :( And is there any time limit on
> the validity of the knowledge exams like the 24 month limit for
> Private/Commercial?
>
> I was hoping I could take #1-#3 and then use my AGI ticket to cover
> all the knowledge exams on the CFII checkride but it appears now.
>
> If you're wondering why bother with AGI when I'm shooting for my CFII,
> I like the idea that it never expires.
>
> Any tips appreciated -- thanks!
>

[BillJ]

Dave S wrote:
> While it may not make much sense, pretty much YES.
>
> however.. the Ground Instrument and the flight instrument and flight
> instructor instrument tests come from the same test bank, so if you
> master the subject matter in the bank, you have no problem with the test.
>
> Also, I've heard but cannot confirm that you can be a CFII without being
> a CFI. Someone else can validate or refute that. Not that the average
> time builder would really end up NOT getting the CFI on the way to CFII.
>
> And yes, there is a time limit. Passing the Ground tests, you just take
> the results to the FSDO and they shall issue. The flight tests, yes are
> time limited.
>
> There are instructional currency requirements for the ground isntructor
> ratings (yes.. go look) . But its a nice one to have if one day you lose
> your medical while working that airline job, just move over to training
> peeps in the sim or something like that.
>
>
>
> Chip H., III wrote:
>
>> Hi. If I want to become an AGI and then a CFII, do I really have to
>> take these 5 exams:
>>
>> 1) Fundamentals of Instructing
>> 2) Ground Instructor Instrument
>> 3) Ground Instructor Advanced
>> 4) Flight Instructor Instrument Airplane
>> 5) Flight Instructor Airplane
>>
>> I understand that your AGI ticket covers your FOI for the CFII ride,
>> but do the Ground Instructor Instrument/Advanced tests not cover your
>> for Flight Instructor Airplane and Instrument Airplane? My
>> understanding is it's mostly the same material, so worst case you're
>> just taking duping tests somewhat, right? But do I have to pay $80 *
>> 5 = $400 for what's really 3 tests? :( And is there any time limit on
>> the validity of the knowledge exams like the 24 month limit for
>> Private/Commercial?
>>
>> I was hoping I could take #1-#3 and then use my AGI ticket to cover
>> all the knowledge exams on the CFII checkride but it appears now.
>>
>> If you're wondering why bother with AGI when I'm shooting for my CFII,
>> I like the idea that it never expires.
>>
>> Any tips appreciated -- thanks!
>>
Correct, you can be an instrument instructor with ever being a single
engine airplane instructor.

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Moore ]
> Posted At: Sunday, September 02, 2007 8:16 AM
> Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
> Conversation: Becoming AGI then CFII
> Subject: Re: Becoming AGI then CFII
>
> Dave S wrote
>
> > Also, I've heard but cannot confirm that you can be a CFII
> > without being a CFI. Someone else can validate or refute that.
>
> The reason is that we are neither CFI nor CFII.
>
> We are simply Flight Instructor with ratings. Those ratings
> are specified in FAR 61.5 below.
>
> I, for example am a Flight Instructor: Airplane SE, Instrument
> Airplane.
>
> It's about time that Flight Instructors stopped referring to
> themselves as CFI/CFII.
>
> FAR 61.5.....
> (c) The following ratings are placed on a flight instructor
certificate

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Bob, wouldn't that make the holder a certificated Flight Instructor
(CFI) ?

[Bob Gardner]

Although I regularly warn pilots that a statement from a FSDO cannot be
relied on, I called the Seattle FSDO on this very question and was told that
one can become an instrument instructor without holding a flight instructor
certificate.

Bob Gardner

"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
46.128...
> Dave S wrote
>
>> Also, I've heard but cannot confirm that you can be a CFII
>> without being a CFI. Someone else can validate or refute that.
>
> The reason is that we are neither CFI nor CFII.
>
> We are simply Flight Instructor with ratings. Those ratings
> are specified in FAR 61.5 below.
>
> I, for example am a Flight Instructor: Airplane SE, Instrument
> Airplane.
>
> It's about time that Flight Instructors stopped referring to
> themselves as CFI/CFII.
>
> FAR 61.5.....
> (c) The following ratings are placed on a flight instructor certificate
> when an applicant satisfactorily accomplishes the training and
> certification requirements for the rating sought:
>
> (1) Aircraft category ratings-
>
> (i) Airplane.
>
> (ii) Rotorcraft.
>
> (iii) Glider.
>
> (iv) Powered-lift.
>
> (2) Airplane class ratings-
>
> (i) Single-engine.
>
> (ii) Multiengine.
>
> (3) Rotorcraft class ratings-
>
> (i) Helicopter.
>
> (ii) Gyroplane.
>
> (4) Instrument ratings-
>
> (i) Instrument-Airplane.
>
> (ii) Instrument-Helicopter.
>
> (iii) Instrument-Powered-lift.
>
> Bob Moore
>

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Moore ]
> Posted At: Sunday, September 02, 2007 3:58 PM
> Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
> Conversation: Becoming AGI then CFII
> Subject: Re: Becoming AGI then CFII
>
> Jim Carter wrote
> > Bob, wouldn't that make the holder a certificated Flight Instructor
> > (CFI) ?
>
> By that logic, what is a Private Pilot? A certificated private pilot?
> CPP?
>
> Bob Moore

Your logic holds true Bob, but haven't we always referred to Certified
Flight Instructors yet not Certified Private Pilots?

Why change something that wasn't broken just over silly semantics?
Aren't there more important things to worry about?

[B[_2_]]

Bob Moore wrote:
> Jim Carter wrote
>
>>Why change something that wasn't broken just over silly semantics?
>>Aren't there more important things to worry about?
>
>
> In aviation, semantics aren't silly. I refer you to the Pan/KLM
> takeoff accident at Teneriffe.
>
> If the FAA says that I am a "Flight Instructor", why should we all
> not do the same?
>
> Newer regulations now call for an "Authorized Instructor" to conduct
> certain flight training procedures. The reason for this is that the
> FAA will "authorize" certain airmen who do not hold a FI certificate
> to endorse the logbook of designated airmen. These include airline
> and military flight instructors.
>
> Bob Moore

When I got my flight instructor's certificate in 1959 it was a
"probationary" certificate, called "Limited Flight Instructor" (LFI).
Once the restrictions were satisfied the FAA at the time said it became
a Certified Flight Instructor certificate.

Following are from the FAA AC on endorsement. "CFI" appears everywhere,
so to speak:

2. Presolo flight training: section 61.87(c).
I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required
presolo training in a (make and model aircraft). I have determined
he/she has demonstrated the proficiency of section 61.87(d) and is
proficient to make solo flights in (make and model aircraft).
/s/ [date] J. J. Jones 987654321CFI Exp. 12-31-05
3. Presolo flight training at night: section 61.87(c) and (o).
I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required
presolo training in a (make and model aircraft). I have determined
he/she has demonstrated the proficiency of section 61.87(o) and is
proficient to make solo flights at night in a (make and model aircraft).
/s/ [date] J. J. Jones 987654321CFI Exp. 12-31-05
4. Solo flight (each additional 90-day period): section 61.87(p).
I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required
training to qualify for solo flying. I have determined he/she meets the
applicable requirements of section 61.87(p) and is proficient to make
solo flights in (make and model).
/s/ [date] J. J. Jones 987654321CFI Exp. 12-31-05
5. Solo takeoffs and landings at another airport within 25 nm: section
61.93(b)(1).
I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required
training of section 61.93(b)(1). I have determined that he/she is
proficient to practice solo takeoffs and landings at (airport name). The
takeoffs and landings at (airport name) are subject to the following
conditions: (List any applicable conditions or limitations.)
/s/ [date] J. J. Jones 987654321CFI Exp. 12-31-05

[B[_2_]]

Bob Gardner wrote:

> Although I regularly warn pilots that a statement from a FSDO cannot be
> relied on, I called the Seattle FSDO on this very question and was told
> that one can become an instrument instructor without holding a flight
> instructor certificate.

For about my first 9 years I was a flight instructor with only an
instrument instructor's rating.

That has been possible since at least 1955 or so.

[B[_2_]]

Bob Moore wrote:

> Bob Gardner wrote
>
>>Although I regularly warn pilots that a statement from a FSDO cannot
>>be relied on, I called the Seattle FSDO on this very question and was
>>told that one can become an instrument instructor without holding a
>>flight instructor certificate.
>
>
> Ah...but no such thing as an "Instrument Instructor". One is a
> "Flight Instructor" with an "Instrument Airplane" rating.
>
> We've got to forget what it "used to be". Without using precise
> terminology, even the FAA gets confused.
>
> Bob Moore

No sir, you are the one confused.

Today, there are Flight Instructors rated only to teach instruments.

[B[_2_]]

Bob Moore wrote:
> B wrote
>
>>Bob Moore wrote:
>>No sir, you are the one confused.
>>Today, there are Flight Instructors rated only to teach instruments.
>
>
> I think that is exactly what I said, and exactly what the FAR that
> I posted said.
>
> Bob Moore
>
>
No, you said they are not instrument flight instructors. That is wrong,
they are instrument flight instructors.

[B[_2_]]

Bob Moore wrote:
> B wrote
>
>>No, you said they are not instrument flight instructors. That is wrong,
>>they are instrument flight instructors.
>
>
> They are Flight Instructors with an Instrument-Airplane rating.
> I defy you to show me where the FAA refers to them as Instrument
> Flight Instructors. (IFI??)
>
> Bob Moore
> Posting under my REAL name

It's a term of art, Bob, just like "ATR."

[Ronnie]

Chip,

If you wish to become a Flight Instructor with Instrument Airplane
rating, you need to take the Fundamentals of Instructing knowledge
test, commonly referred to as the "FOI", or have credit based on
already holding an instructor certificate (either flight or ground).

In addition, you need to pass the Flight Instructor Instrument Airplane
knowledge exam. The subject matter for this knowledge is the same
as for the Instrument Airplane and Instrument Ground Instructor knowledge
exams, but you get no credit for having taken either of the other exams.

I took the IGI, IA, and flight instructor IA exam one right after the other
on the same day. Studied the matertial and knocked them all out with one
visit to the testing center, but each was counted as a seperate exam.

Once you have the FOI and IGI knowledge tests, you can visit the local
FSDO and get the Instrument Ground Instructor Certificate.

The FAA has issued a Flight Instructor with Instrument Airplane rating
as an inital flight instructor certificate. The instructor I used for my
instrument
airplane rating held this flight instructor certificate and rating. He
never did
add any other ratings to his flight instructor certificate. He could
prepare
and sign-off a candidate for an instument rating practical test, but could
not
make the various endorsements required for a stundent pilot, commercial
pilot,
etc, etc.

Ronnie


"Chip H., III" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi. If I want to become an AGI and then a CFII, do I really have to
> take these 5 exams:
>
> 1) Fundamentals of Instructing
> 2) Ground Instructor Instrument
> 3) Ground Instructor Advanced
> 4) Flight Instructor Instrument Airplane
> 5) Flight Instructor Airplane
>
> I understand that your AGI ticket covers your FOI for the CFII ride,
> but do the Ground Instructor Instrument/Advanced tests not cover your
> for Flight Instructor Airplane and Instrument Airplane? My
> understanding is it's mostly the same material, so worst case you're
> just taking duping tests somewhat, right? But do I have to pay $80 *
> 5 = $400 for what's really 3 tests? :( And is there any time limit on
> the validity of the knowledge exams like the 24 month limit for
> Private/Commercial?
>
> I was hoping I could take #1-#3 and then use my AGI ticket to cover
> all the knowledge exams on the CFII checkride but it appears now.
>
> If you're wondering why bother with AGI when I'm shooting for my CFII,
> I like the idea that it never expires.
>
> Any tips appreciated -- thanks!
>
>