Poland: French Missile Report Was Wrong

[Michael Petukhov]

WARSAW, Poland (AP)--After a protest from French President Jacques
Chirac, Poland said Saturday it had been mistaken in reporting that
its troops found new French-made anti-aircraft misiles in central
Iraq.

Chirac swiftly denied selling Iraq weapons in violation of the U.N.
weapons embargo imposed against Saddam Hussein's regime in 1990. The
claims, he said, ``are as false today as they were yesterday.''

An aide to the Polish prime minister said an initial report that the
Roland missiles found by Polish troops days ago were produced in 2003
was incorrect. France said it stopped producing any type of Roland
missile in 1993.

Prime Minister Leszek Miller met with Chirac twice to explain the
mistake, said the aide, Tadeusz Iwinski. The two leaders were in Rome
on Saturday for a European Union summit.

``There can be no 2003 missiles since these missiles have not been
made for 15 years, Chirac told reporters in Rome. ``Polish soldiers
confused things. I told ... Miller so frankly--friendly but firmly.

France used similar arguments to rebut allegations in April that
recently made Roland missiles have been found in Iraq.

The report first came in a statement by a ministry spokesman to Polish
state television that the troops uncovered French-made Roland missiles
in the town of Hilla, in the zone of central Iraq where the Poles lead
a peacekeeping force. A ministry statement said the missiles were
destroyed on Wednesday.

Maj. Andrzej Wiatrowski, a spokesman in Iraq for the Polish-led force,
said pictures of the missiles taken before they were destroyed might
clear up when they were made.

``That's the job for our superiors. Our job is to recover and destroy
dangerous material,'' Wiatrowski said by satellite phone.

Iwinski said the matter has been settled. ``It was wrongly said that
the rockets were produced in that year,'' Iwinski said by telephone
from the summit. ``President Chirac has accepted Prime Minister Leszek
Miller's explanation.''

The Polish defense minister, Jerzy Szmajdzinski, ``expressed his
regrets'' for the mistake, a ministry statement said.

France long had close ties to Iraq that included lucrative weapons
deals. Paris supplied arms, in exchange for oil, during the eight-year
Iran-Iraq war.

In June, an Associated Press reporter traveling with the 3rd Infantry
Division found two Roland 2 missile launchers in excellent condition
on Habaniyah airfield, 45 miles west of Baghdad. Each launcher had
four missiles mounted on it, but both launchers had been flipped onto
their sides, apparently in an effort to unload the flatbed trucks on
which they were mounted.

At the time, U.S. Army officers said dozens of such missiles had been
found on military bases across Iraq and all were believed to have been
delivered before July 1990.

The French Foreign Ministry emphasized on Saturday that France has not
authorized the sale of weapons, or even spare parts, to Iraq since
July 1990, when the United Nations imposed sanctions on weapons sales
following Saddam's invasion of Kuwait.

The ministry statement said Roland 1 missiles and launchers were
exported to Iraq in 1980-81, while Roland 2 missiles were exported
from 1983 to 1986. France stopped making Roland 2s in 1988 and Roland
3s in 1993, it said.

France used similar arguments to rebut allegations in april that
recently made Roland missiles have been found in iraq.

The Polish Defense Ministry said the Roland missiles were among about
a dozen missiles uncovered near Hilla on Tuesday, including
Soviet-made Malutka, French Hot and French-German Milan missiles. The
Roland missiles are about 25 feet long, radar-guided and launched from
the back of a truck.

The U.S. military found 35 Roland missiles when it captured Baghdad
International Airport in April. Roland missiles also were found when
Australian troops captured an airfield in western Iraq.

The Web site GlobalSecurity.org says the Roland weapon system is
intended for anti-aircraft defense of armored and mechanized the units
to counter aircraft flying to nearly at 1 1/2 times the speed of sound
or hovering helicopters.

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/ap/ap_story.html/Intl/AP.V9249.AP-Iraq-French-Mis.html;COXnetJSessionID=11w5IQVnQefHDpmCYZmAi607 zgHGgkkOduEd528aFXtXKJYIumDl!-1395306204?urac=n&urvf=10653002177830.2651576936886102

Source: Beata Pasek Associated Press Writer Via The Atlanta
Journal-Constitution

[Jim Watt]

On 5 Oct 2003 13:02:45 -0700, (Michael
Petukhov) wrote:

<snip>

>France said it stopped producing any type of Roland missile in 1993.

>``There can be no 2003 missiles since these missiles have not been
>made for 15 years, " - Chirac

2003 - 15 = 1988
2003 - 1993 = 10

Surely there must be some mystake

Poland says regrets report on French missiles

WARSAW, Oct 4 (Reuters) - Poland's defence ministry expressed regret
on Saturday over its report that Polish troops had found advanced
French-made missiles in Iraq that had been produced this year.

The ministry's brief statement did not explicitly retract the words
of spokesman Eugeniusz Mleczak, who said on Friday that the
Roland-type missiles found near the Iraqi town of Hilla in a zone
controlled by the Polish-led military force.

(more)


--
Jim Watt http://www.gibnet.com

[Goran Larsson]

In article >,
Jim Watt > wrote:

> >France said it stopped producing any type of Roland missile in 1993.

No Roland 1, 2, or 3 missiles after 1993.

> >``There can be no 2003 missiles since these missiles have not been
> >made for 15 years, " - Chirac

No Roland 2 missiles after 1988.

> 2003 - 15 = 1988
> 2003 - 1993 = 10
>
> Surely there must be some mystake

Yes. You didn't read the whole article. The Poles found Roland 2 missiles.

--
Göran Larsson http://www.mitt-eget.com/

[Jim Watt]

On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 21:48:05 GMT, (Goran Larsson)
wrote:

>> 2003 - 15 = 1988
>> 2003 - 1993 = 10
>>
>> Surely there must be some mystake
>
>Yes. You didn't read the whole article

I did, but it seems that counting is different in French
and their lies are not even consistent.

I see the Poles are apologising for telling it like they
saw it, not denying the story.



--
Jim Watt http://www.gibnet.com

[Goran Larsson]

In article >,
Jim Watt > wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 21:48:05 GMT, (Goran Larsson)
> wrote:
>
> >> 2003 - 15 = 1988
> >> 2003 - 1993 = 10
> >>
> >> Surely there must be some mystake
> >
> >Yes. You didn't read the whole article
>
> I did, but it seems that counting is different in French
> and their lies are not even consistent.

| The ministry statement said Roland 1 missiles and launchers were
| exported to Iraq in 1980-81, while Roland 2 missiles were exported
| from 1983 to 1986. France stopped making Roland 2s in 1988 and Roland
| 3s in 1993, it said.

It seems that the lies and inconsistencies are told by someone else.

--
Göran Larsson http://www.mitt-eget.com/

[Jörg Bihlmayr]

Jim Watt schrieb:

> On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 21:48:05 GMT, (Goran Larsson)
> wrote:
>
> >> 2003 - 15 = 1988
> >> 2003 - 1993 = 10
> >>
> >> Surely there must be some mystake
> >
> >Yes. You didn't read the whole article
>
> I did, but it seems that counting is different in French
> and their lies are not even consistent.

Why?
The missiles found in Iraq are Roland 2, production ended in 1988.
The last Roland missiles produced 1993 were Roland 3.

So no French lie here..

Jörg

>
>
> I see the Poles are apologising for telling it like they
> saw it, not denying the story.
>
> --
> Jim Watt http://www.gibnet.com

--
Disclaimer:
Sie lasen soeben eine Satire. Die gesamte Handlung ist frei erfunden und
sämtliche Ähnlichkeiten mit lebenden oder toten Personen bestenfalls
zufällig. Der Inhalt mag Ihnen in empörender Weise über Gebühr
unkorrekt, haltlos, schlecht oder auch nur geschmacklos vorgekommen
sein. Wenn dem so ist, dann danken Sie einem höheren Wesen Ihrer Wahl
dafür, daß Sie in einem Land leben wo dergleichen noch veröffentlicht
werden darf, und vermeiden Sie sicherheitshalber jeden weiteren Kontakt
mit dem Autor.
Alle Angaben ohne Gewähr.

[Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj]

Michael Petukhov wrote:

> WARSAW, Poland (AP)--After a protest from French President Jacques
> Chirac, Poland said Saturday it had been mistaken in reporting that
> its troops found new French-made anti-aircraft misiles in central
> Iraq.
>
> Chirac swiftly denied selling Iraq weapons in violation of the U.N.
> weapons embargo imposed against Saddam Hussein's regime in 1990. The
> claims, he said, ``are as false today as they were yesterday.''
>
> An aide to the Polish prime minister said an initial report that the
> Roland missiles found by Polish troops days ago were produced in 2003
> was incorrect. France said it stopped producing any type of Roland
> missile in 1993.
>
Let us analyze the statement "are as false today as they were yesterday"
It means that the truth of the allegations has not changed between then
and now. But that is an obviously true statement, without regard to the
truth or falsity of the allegations. Therefore the statement is just
diplomatic noise.
>
> In June, an Associated Press reporter traveling with the 3rd Infantry
> Division found two Roland 2 missile launchers in excellent condition
> on Habaniyah airfield, 45 miles west of Baghdad. Each launcher had
> four missiles mounted on it, but both launchers had been flipped onto
> their sides, apparently in an effort to unload the flatbed trucks on
> which they were mounted.
>
> At the time, U.S. Army officers said dozens of such missiles had been
> found on military bases across Iraq and all were believed to have been
> delivered before July 1990.
>
> The French Foreign Ministry emphasized on Saturday that France has not
> authorized the sale of weapons, or even spare parts, to Iraq since
> July 1990, when the United Nations imposed sanctions on weapons sales
> following Saddam's invasion of Kuwait.
>
> The ministry statement said Roland 1 missiles and launchers were
> exported to Iraq in 1980-81, while Roland 2 missiles were exported
> from 1983 to 1986. France stopped making Roland 2s in 1988 and Roland
> 3s in 1993, it said.
>
> France used similar arguments to rebut allegations in april that
> recently made Roland missiles have been found in iraq.
>
> The Polish Defense Ministry said the Roland missiles were among about
> a dozen missiles uncovered near Hilla on Tuesday, including
> Soviet-made Malutka, French Hot and French-German Milan missiles. The
> Roland missiles are about 25 feet long, radar-guided and launched from
> the back of a truck.
>
> The U.S. military found 35 Roland missiles when it captured Baghdad
> International Airport in April. Roland missiles also were found when
> Australian troops captured an airfield in western Iraq.
>
> The Web site GlobalSecurity.org says the Roland weapon system is
> intended for anti-aircraft defense of armored and mechanized the units
> to counter aircraft flying to nearly at 1 1/2 times the speed of sound
> or hovering helicopters.
>
> http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/ap/ap_story.html/Intl/AP.V9249.AP-Iraq-French-Mis.html;COXnetJSessionID=11w5IQVnQefHDpmCYZmAi607 zgHGgkkOduEd528aFXtXKJYIumDl!-1395306204?urac=n&urvf=10653002177830.2651576936886102
>
> Source: Beata Pasek Associated Press Writer Via The Atlanta
> Journal-Constitution

If the statement of the Poles was that the missiles in question were
manufactured last year or even very recently, in France, and imported,
then the Poles almost certainly made a mistake.
However there are many possibilities and unanswered questions.
1) When were they imported? : before or after the ban?
2) If before, then were these missiles of a type that Iraq was allowed
to have/keep after the cease fire, or should they have been
destroyed?
The date of manufacture even if old, (i.e. during the old production
dates for the type) does not matter, since I am sure that the arms
manufacturer or stockpiler would have been quite glad to sell of
the older missiles to any willing buyer.
I have read that some of the older munitions used by the US in
vietnam was from the WWII stockpile.
--
Rostyk

[Jack Linthicum]

"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message >...
> Michael Petukhov wrote:
>
> > WARSAW, Poland (AP)--After a protest from French President Jacques
> > Chirac, Poland said Saturday it had been mistaken in reporting that
> > its troops found new French-made anti-aircraft misiles in central
> > Iraq.
> >
> > Chirac swiftly denied selling Iraq weapons in violation of the U.N.
> > weapons embargo imposed against Saddam Hussein's regime in 1990. The
> > claims, he said, ``are as false today as they were yesterday.''
> >
> > An aide to the Polish prime minister said an initial report that the
> > Roland missiles found by Polish troops days ago were produced in 2003
> > was incorrect. France said it stopped producing any type of Roland
> > missile in 1993.
> >
> Let us analyze the statement "are as false today as they were yesterday"
> It means that the truth of the allegations has not changed between then
> and now. But that is an obviously true statement, without regard to the
> truth or falsity of the allegations. Therefore the statement is just
> diplomatic noise.
> >
> > In June, an Associated Press reporter traveling with the 3rd Infantry
> > Division found two Roland 2 missile launchers in excellent condition
> > on Habaniyah airfield, 45 miles west of Baghdad. Each launcher had
> > four missiles mounted on it, but both launchers had been flipped onto
> > their sides, apparently in an effort to unload the flatbed trucks on
> > which they were mounted.
> >
> > At the time, U.S. Army officers said dozens of such missiles had been
> > found on military bases across Iraq and all were believed to have been
> > delivered before July 1990.
> >
> > The French Foreign Ministry emphasized on Saturday that France has not
> > authorized the sale of weapons, or even spare parts, to Iraq since
> > July 1990, when the United Nations imposed sanctions on weapons sales
> > following Saddam's invasion of Kuwait.
> >
> > The ministry statement said Roland 1 missiles and launchers were
> > exported to Iraq in 1980-81, while Roland 2 missiles were exported
> > from 1983 to 1986. France stopped making Roland 2s in 1988 and Roland
> > 3s in 1993, it said.
> >
> > France used similar arguments to rebut allegations in april that
> > recently made Roland missiles have been found in iraq.
> >
> > The Polish Defense Ministry said the Roland missiles were among about
> > a dozen missiles uncovered near Hilla on Tuesday, including
> > Soviet-made Malutka, French Hot and French-German Milan missiles. The
> > Roland missiles are about 25 feet long, radar-guided and launched from
> > the back of a truck.
> >
> > The U.S. military found 35 Roland missiles when it captured Baghdad
> > International Airport in April. Roland missiles also were found when
> > Australian troops captured an airfield in western Iraq.
> >
> > The Web site GlobalSecurity.org says the Roland weapon system is
> > intended for anti-aircraft defense of armored and mechanized the units
> > to counter aircraft flying to nearly at 1 1/2 times the speed of sound
> > or hovering helicopters.
> >
> > http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/ap/ap_story.html/Intl/AP.V9249.AP-Iraq-French-Mis.html;COXnetJSessionID=11w5IQVnQefHDpmCYZmAi607 zgHGgkkOduEd528aFXtXKJYIumDl!-1395306204?urac=n&urvf=10653002177830.2651576936886102
> >
> > Source: Beata Pasek Associated Press Writer Via The Atlanta
> > Journal-Constitution
>
> If the statement of the Poles was that the missiles in question were
> manufactured last year or even very recently, in France, and imported,
> then the Poles almost certainly made a mistake.
> However there are many possibilities and unanswered questions.
> 1) When were they imported? : before or after the ban?
> 2) If before, then were these missiles of a type that Iraq was allowed
> to have/keep after the cease fire, or should they have been
> destroyed?
> The date of manufacture even if old, (i.e. during the old production
> dates for the type) does not matter, since I am sure that the arms
> manufacturer or stockpiler would have been quite glad to sell of
> the older missiles to any willing buyer.
> I have read that some of the older munitions used by the US in
> vietnam was from the WWII stockpile.

When you can read the factory markings clue us in, other wise save the
rhetoric for the next party congress.

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, Jim Watt
> writes
>On 5 Oct 2003 13:02:45 -0700, (Michael
>Petukhov) wrote:
>>France said it stopped producing any type of Roland missile in 1993.
>
>>``There can be no 2003 missiles since these missiles have not been
>>made for 15 years, " - Chirac
>
>2003 - 15 = 1988
>2003 - 1993 = 10
>
>Surely there must be some mystake

Roland 2 left production in 1988 and that _seems_ to be what was found
(hard to be sure since the evidence has been conveniently destroyed)

France was cheerfully selling arms to Iraq up to then (including a lot
of Exocet ASMs that got fired at Iranian tankers - Iraq accounts for
about 50% of the anti-ship missile use since 1945) but then at that
point Hussein was _our_ ******* and helpfully keeping Iran contained,
and his horrible human rights record and fondness for gassing Kurds was
tolerated.

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk