Flight Questions

[Jed]

I've flown several times on Midwest Airlines' Boeing 717 aircraft, and
recently two things happened that I never experienced and hope a pilot might
explain.

First, about an hour into the flight I smelled what seemed like jet engine
exhaust. That lasted for about 10 minutes.

The other was really strange (at least to me). About 30 minutes later, the
First Officer exited the cockpit and walked the length of the cabin with his
arms outstretched, hands running along the overhead compartments. Then he
walked back and re-entered the cockpit; when the door opened I saw that a
flight attendant was waiting inside. He went in; she came out.

Thanks.

[WestCDA]

Flight Attendant: "No, really - the plane gets narrower the further you go
back".
First Officer" "It does not. I'll bet you a dollar it's the same front to
back.
Flight Attendant" "OK - you go check, and I'll look after your stuff up
here".

"Jed" > wrote in message
...
> I've flown several times on Midwest Airlines' Boeing 717 aircraft, and
> recently two things happened that I never experienced and hope a pilot
> might explain.
>
> First, about an hour into the flight I smelled what seemed like jet engine
> exhaust. That lasted for about 10 minutes.
>
> The other was really strange (at least to me). About 30 minutes later, the
> First Officer exited the cockpit and walked the length of the cabin with
> his arms outstretched, hands running along the overhead compartments. Then
> he walked back and re-entered the cockpit; when the door opened I saw that
> a flight attendant was waiting inside. He went in; she came out.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>

[Bob Noel]

In article >, "Jed" > wrote:

> First Officer exited the cockpit and walked the length of the cabin with his
> arms outstretched, hands running along the overhead compartments.

Putting your hands on the overhead compartments means you don't
have to put your hands on every single seatback on the way up
and down the aisle. Don't you just love it when the gomer behind
you has to grab and pull on your seatback?

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Jed" > wrote in message
...
> I've flown several times on Midwest Airlines' Boeing 717 aircraft, and
> recently two things happened that I never experienced and hope a pilot
> might explain.
>
> First, about an hour into the flight I smelled what seemed like jet engine
> exhaust. That lasted for about 10 minutes.
>
> The other was really strange (at least to me). About 30 minutes later, the
> First Officer exited the cockpit and walked the length of the cabin with
> his arms outstretched, hands running along the overhead compartments. Then
> he walked back and re-entered the cockpit; when the door opened I saw that
> a flight attendant was waiting inside. He went in; she came out.

Might be a new FA, and he was checking to see if all of the overhead bins
were really secure, after she said they were already checked.
--
Jim in NC

[DaveB]

On Sun, 2 Sep 2007 22:32:39 -0500, "Jed" > wrote:

>I've flown several times on Midwest Airlines' Boeing 717 aircraft, and
>recently two things happened that I never experienced and hope a pilot might
>explain.
>
>First, about an hour into the flight I smelled what seemed like jet engine
>exhaust. That lasted for about 10 minutes.
>
>The other was really strange (at least to me). About 30 minutes later, the
>First Officer exited the cockpit and walked the length of the cabin with his
>arms outstretched, hands running along the overhead compartments. Then he
>walked back and re-entered the cockpit; when the door opened I saw that a
>flight attendant was waiting inside. He went in; she came out.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Dizzy? after a bj in the er cockpit
>

Daveb

[Jon]

On Sep 3, 7:12 am, Bob Noel >
wrote:
> In article >, "Jed" > wrote:
> > First Officer exited the cockpit and walked the length of the cabin with his
> > arms outstretched, hands running along the overhead compartments.
>
> Putting your hands on the overhead compartments means you don't
> have to put your hands on every single seatback on the way up
> and down the aisle.

That's usually what I do. Seems to work ok for balance when the plane
starts to hit some garbage.

Some folks aren't aware or just don't seem to care about their
surroundings as they waddle up/down the aisle.

> Don't you just love it when the gomer behind
> you has to grab and pull on your seatback?

Indeed. Especially on a long flight when you're trying to grab some
shuteye. Too bad there isn't a device analagous to noise-canceling
phones that work well dealing with loud babies during trans-oceanic
flights, that would cancel vibrations ;)

Then there's the large farm animal in the seat in front that decides
to dump their seat back into your kneecaps when you're working on
dinner or the laptop.

I saw a show on PBS a while back where they went back to through the
history of commercial aviation in the US. International airlines do a
much better job in providing a better overall comfort package these
days; but I was amazed to see how much of a comfort it used to be to
fly in the US in the early days.

They showed passengers eating actual meals (a real cut of steak). Now
they're even cutting out the complimentary "meals" on many flights
(under 5 hours, IIRC?). Guess the bailout didn't quite cover the
margin and now we're the cattle <sigh>...

Even as recently as back in '98 or so, on a < 1-hour morning leg from
Sydney to Brisbane on Ansett, they served a real muffin. Yeah, ok,
Ansett's no longer, but I doubt it was correllated to the oversized
muffin ;)

On any coast-to-coast or longer flight, I make sure I'm stocked with
supplies, just to make the ride tolerable. Call me eclectic, but
grazing on the third pack of mini-pretzels starts to get a little
old ;)

I checked on <http://www.acela.com> and the Boston to DC Express run
is around 6.5 hours for a little over $200. And it's only that long
due to the fact that they can't sustain 150mph the whole way. Of
course there are stops along the way, but the main impediment is track
restrictions. Between waiting at the airport, taxi in/out times, what
used to be a 1-hour ride checks in closer to 3 these days. If Acela
could get that ride down to around <= 4 hours (time is only part of
the package for me), and airline delays continue, rail mode would be a
winner for me.

Just curious, how long does it nominally take the little guys (say a
Piper or something that can make it w/o having to re-fuel) to get from
BOS to DCA, assuming weather isn't an issue?

> --
> Bob Noel
> (goodness, please trim replies!!!)

Regards,
Jon

[Judah]

Jon > wrote in
ups.com:

> Then there's the large farm animal in the seat in front that decides
> to dump their seat back into your kneecaps when you're working on
> dinner or the laptop.

Fortunately, I think the airlines have reduced the recline of the seats so
that it only goes back about an inch...

> I checked on <http://www.acela.com> and the Boston to DC Express run
> is around 6.5 hours for a little over $200. And it's only that long
> due to the fact that they can't sustain 150mph the whole way. Of
> course there are stops along the way, but the main impediment is track

They go 150mph for a surprisingly short amount of time. I believe it's
through the south end of Rhode Island, and lasts about 15 minutes. I
haven't done that ride in a while, but that's about what it used to be.

> Just curious, how long does it nominally take the little guys (say a
> Piper or something that can make it w/o having to re-fuel) to get from
> BOS to DCA, assuming weather isn't an issue?

From BOS to DCA is about 350nm. In an Archer @ ~115kts, that would be just
over 3 hours. However, a direct flight would take you through NYC and
Philly airspace, which could add time. Wind is also a factor.

In a Bonanza @~ 170kts you'll save almost an hour and arrive in just over 2
hours.

I wouldn't land BOS or DCA in an Archer or a Bo, though. I don't think
Logan is very GA friendly, and there are airports nearby to choose from
that are much more GA friendly (I used to land OWD quite a bit a few years
back). DCA is very restricted since 9/11. I don't think GA aircraft are
allowed to land there at all anymore, and pilots need special clearance in
order to land at any of the three nearest public airports. I think the
nearest usable airport now is probably Freeway in Bowie, and it has a
fairly short runway, though...

[Judah]

"Jed" > wrote in :

> First, about an hour into the flight I smelled what seemed like jet
> engine exhaust. That lasted for about 10 minutes.

Flatulence?

> The other was really strange (at least to me). About 30 minutes later,
> the First Officer exited the cockpit and walked the length of the cabin
> with his arms outstretched, hands running along the overhead
> compartments. Then he walked back and re-entered the cockpit; when the
> door opened I saw that a flight attendant was waiting inside. He went
> in; she came out.

Was the bathroom in the rear of the airplane?

[Vaughn Simon]

"Jon" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Just curious, how long does it nominally take the little guys (say a
> Piper or something that can make it w/o having to re-fuel) to get from
> BOS to DCA, assuming weather isn't an issue?

That "weather thing" would be a big assumption. Even if pilot and plane
are instrument rated (many are not) the traveling schedule of your average
"Piper or something" is very vulnerable to bad weather. More than one
pilot-traveler has abandoned an airplane and taken the airlines home to wait for
better weather to return and fetch the family airplane. I am an enthusiastic
pilot, but realize that light airplanes do not make good travel tools unless you
have significant flexibility in your schedule and are willing to change your
plans in the interest of safety.

Vaughn

[Panic]

"Jon" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I saw a show on PBS a while back where they went back to through the
> history of commercial aviation in the US. International airlines do a
> much better job in providing a better overall comfort package these
> days; but I was amazed to see how much of a comfort it used to be to
> fly in the US in the early days.
>
> They showed passengers eating actual meals (a real cut of steak). Now
> they're even cutting out the complimentary "meals" on many flights
> (under 5 hours, IIRC?). Guess the bailout didn't quite cover the
> margin and now we're the cattle <sigh>...
>
We passengers have voted to cut out meals in flight. We have done so by
shopping to find the cheapest flights to get from A to B without
consideration of the amenities. Those airlines that provide nice meals have
to charge for them or they will lose money.

Darrell R. Schmidt
B-58 Hustler Web Site
http://members.cox.net/dschmidt1/
USAF Pilot Class 55-I Web Site
http://pilotclass55india.org/

[B A R R Y]

On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 07:32:36 -0700, Jon >
wrote:
> If Acela
>could get that ride down to around <= 4 hours (time is only part of
>the package for me), and airline delays continue, rail mode would be a
>winner for me.

Check Amtrak's on-time performance. <G>

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Vaughn Simon wrote:
>> Just curious, how long does it nominally take the little guys (say a
>> Piper or something that can make it w/o having to re-fuel) to get from
>> BOS to DCA, assuming weather isn't an issue?
>
> That "weather thing" would be a big assumption. Even if pilot and plane
> are instrument rated (many are not) the traveling schedule of your average
> "Piper or something" is very vulnerable to bad weather. More than one
> pilot-traveler has abandoned an airplane and taken the airlines home to wait
> for better weather to return and fetch the family airplane. I am an
> enthusiastic pilot, but realize that light airplanes do not make good travel
> tools unless you have significant flexibility in your schedule and are
> willing to change your plans in the interest of safety.


WTH? There are plenty of days where it's safe to fly relatively long distances
VFR. The only caveat is that it's one of those deals where the ultimate go/no
go decision is going to have to be the same day just before you take off
(assuming you do). Now I understand that the ultimate go/ no go is done then on
every flight but my point is that an IFR rated pilot is able to plan with an
excellent chance of mission completion days ahead while a VFR only pilot really
can't.

Now to answer the other gentlemen's question: it depends on the aircraft. A
C-210 could make the trip in just a couple of hours (I'm estimating... I made a
nonstop from Rock Hill, SC to Beverly, MA once in a 210 on one tank of gas some
years ago so the Washington to Boston leg must have been 2 hours or so.

In a C-172 or Warrior, I would guess closer to three or three and a half hours.
Certainly something doable on a pretty day on the Eastern seaboard.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Jon]

On Sep 3, 1:02 pm, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com>
wrote:
> Vaughn Simon wrote:
> >> Just curious, how long does it nominally take the little guys (say a
> >> Piper or something that can make it w/o having to re-fuel) to get from
> >> BOS to DCA, assuming weather isn't an issue?
>
> > That "weather thing" would be a big assumption. Even if pilot and plane
> > are instrument rated (many are not) the traveling schedule of your average
> > "Piper or something" is very vulnerable to bad weather.

Understood that weather up in these parts is often a factor. I was
looking for a best case time.

> [good datapoints snipped for brevity]

> Now to answer the other gentlemen's question: it depends on the aircraft. A
> C-210 could make the trip in just a couple of hours (I'm estimating... I made a
> nonstop from Rock Hill, SC to Beverly, MA once in a 210 on one tank of gas some
> years ago so the Washington to Boston leg must have been 2 hours or so.
>
> In a C-172 or Warrior, I would guess closer to three or three and a half hours.
> Certainly something doable on a pretty day on the Eastern seaboard.
>
> --
> Mortimer Schnerd, RN
> mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

Thanks Judah, Vaughn, and Mortimer for the info.

The reason I asked was that there was some talk a few years back about
the whether it would be feasible for work to go with their own shuttle
option (lease? rent?). On a typical day, I imagine there's at least
half a dozen or more that take the USAir shuttle to DCA and United to
IAD, so I'm revisiting the concept.

Just given the numbers of trips, there's usually at least a couple
horror stories about delays for a variety of reasons, not always
weather related. That and the cost of .gov fare are not at all
competitive given we usually have no choice but to fly on the contract
carriers.

The Tech Center has a shuttle to/from IAD->ACY which I've taken a few
times when work takes me there. Not sure what type of plane it is, but
I wanna say it's around a 40 seater and they run two daily trips each
way. It's loaded up in the cockpit for bad weather ("Weatherscope", as
I recall), and I was thinking something along those lines (or smaller)
would be good for helping with marginal weather days.

Regards,
Jon

[Margy Natalie]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
> Vaughn Simon wrote:
>
>>>Just curious, how long does it nominally take the little guys (say a
>>>Piper or something that can make it w/o having to re-fuel) to get from
>>>BOS to DCA, assuming weather isn't an issue?
>>
>> That "weather thing" would be a big assumption. Even if pilot and plane
>>are instrument rated (many are not) the traveling schedule of your average
>>"Piper or something" is very vulnerable to bad weather. More than one
>>pilot-traveler has abandoned an airplane and taken the airlines home to wait
>>for better weather to return and fetch the family airplane. I am an
>>enthusiastic pilot, but realize that light airplanes do not make good travel
>>tools unless you have significant flexibility in your schedule and are
>>willing to change your plans in the interest of safety.
>
>
>
> WTH? There are plenty of days where it's safe to fly relatively long distances
> VFR. The only caveat is that it's one of those deals where the ultimate go/no
> go decision is going to have to be the same day just before you take off
> (assuming you do). Now I understand that the ultimate go/ no go is done then on
> every flight but my point is that an IFR rated pilot is able to plan with an
> excellent chance of mission completion days ahead while a VFR only pilot really
> can't.
>
We did that trip recently (Culpeper, VA to OWD) in less then 3 hours and
on the way home we went ORD to Lancaster, PA where we put down and
rented a car (2 hour drive home) due to T-storms. The next weekend we
went back to Lancaster to get the plane. We probably still beat the
airline times even driving the last 100 miles :-).

Margy

[Jed]

Yeah, I knew I opened the door when I asked this.

> Flight Attendant: "No, really - the plane gets narrower the further you
> go back".
> First Officer" "It does not. I'll bet you a dollar it's the same front
> to back.
> Flight Attendant" "OK - you go check, and I'll look after your stuff up
> here".

[Mxsmanic]

I still don't see an explanation for the kerosene smell. I assume nobody
knows?

I've often smelled jet-engine exhaust (mainly the smell of jet fuel) after
landing. I assume this is exhaust partially drawn back into the engine and
the packs, but I don't really know. As for the smell in flight, that would be
unusual, and it's not obvious how exhaust could find its way back into the
packs.

[Paul kgyy]

On Sep 3, 10:33 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> I still don't see an explanation for the kerosene smell. I assume nobody
> knows?
>
> I've often smelled jet-engine exhaust (mainly the smell of jet fuel) after
> landing. I assume this is exhaust partially drawn back into the engine and
> the packs, but I don't really know. As for the smell in flight, that would be
> unusual, and it's not obvious how exhaust could find its way back into the
> packs.

Just flew into another jet's wake? Not uncommon.

[TakeFlight]

Sqwawk 7500...this thread looks like it's been hijacked! ;)

I can think of two things that might cause some exhaust smell in the
cabin:

(1) The plane's APU bleed air might be on and sucking in some engine
exhaust. But usually the APU bleed is only used for cabin ventilation
& pressurization on the ground, or sometimes during takeoff & initial
climb.

(2) More likely, the plane flew through the exhaust of another passing
jet and the a/c picked up the smell. The 717 doesn't recirculate cabin
air - it brings in fresh air for cabin ventilation and pressurization.
This also seems more likely since you describe it being an hour after
takeoff and short-lived.

As for the FO, did he visit the lav? Or maybe one of the flight
attendants told the crew that the cabin smelled, and he came back to
take a look (or sniff). I don't think running your hands along the
overheads as you move down the aisle has any particular significance.
But post-911 the flight attendants are noticeably more protective of
the cockpit area. I've even seen attendants block the area with their
body when a pilot comes out to visit the lav.

[Mxsmanic]

Paul kgyy writes:

> Just flew into another jet's wake? Not uncommon.

I didn't think of that, it makes sense.

I still have no idea why anyone would smell exhaust in flight, but that has
never happened to me. If I smell it, it's generally on the ground, just after
landing.

[Mxsmanic]

TakeFlight writes:

> I've even seen attendants block the area with their
> body when a pilot comes out to visit the lav.

If the bad guys have the means to get through a cockpit door, I don't think a
flight attendant will be much of an obstacle.

[TakeFlight]

But maybe just enough of one to prevent someone from rushing the door
during the 2-3 seconds that it's open.


On Sep 5, 1:51 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> TakeFlight writes:
> > I've even seen attendants block the area with their
> > body when a pilot comes out to visit the lav.
>
> If the bad guys have the means to get through a cockpit door, I don't think a
> flight attendant will be much of an obstacle.

[El Maximo]

In another attempt to hijack a thread, "Mxsmanic" > wrote
in message ...
> TakeFlight writes:
>
>> I've even seen attendants block the area with their
>> body when a pilot comes out to visit the lav.
>
> If the bad guys have the means to get through a cockpit door, I don't
> think a
> flight attendant will be much of an obstacle.

If the bad guys don't have the means to get through a cockpit door, I think
a
flight attendant will be much of an obstacle.

[Mxsmanic]

El Maximo writes:

> If the bad guys don't have the means to get through a cockpit door, I think
> a flight attendant will be much of an obstacle.

If they don't have the means to get through the door, the FA isn't necessary
to begin with.

[Andy Hawkins]

In article >,
> wrote:
> El Maximo writes:
>
>> If the bad guys don't have the means to get through a cockpit door, I think
>> a flight attendant will be much of an obstacle.
>
> If they don't have the means to get through the door, the FA isn't necessary
> to begin with.

The door is open...

The FA is providing an obstacle for the short period of time while it is.

Andy

[El Maximo]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> El Maximo writes:
>
>> If the bad guys don't have the means to get through a cockpit door, I
>> think
>> a flight attendant will be much of an obstacle.
>
> If they don't have the means to get through the door, the FA isn't
> necessary
> to begin with.

It sounds like your simulator may not properly model cockpit doors. How does
it work on your simulator?

[El Maximo]

"Martin" > wrote in message
...

>
> To you it would appear to be just a battered vintage egg stained second
> hand
> microwave door.
> --

Heating hard boiled eggs in a microwave is entertaining, to say the least.
It's messy too.

[LWG]

Whew, have you seen some of those fight attendants?

>> If the bad guys don't have the means to get through a cockpit door, I
>> think
>> a flight attendant will be much of an obstacle.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> El Maximo writes:
>
>> If the bad guys don't have the means to get through a cockpit door, I
>> think a flight attendant will be much of an obstacle.
>
> If they don't have the means to get through the door, the FA isn't
> necessary to begin with.
>

Again, you have no idea what you're talking about.

What a surprise.


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> TakeFlight writes:
>
>> I've even seen attendants block the area with their
>> body when a pilot comes out to visit the lav.
>
> If the bad guys have the means to get through a cockpit door, I don't
> think a flight attendant will be much of an obstacle.
>

Zip, nadda, no clue whatsoever.


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Paul kgyy writes:
>
>> Just flew into another jet's wake? Not uncommon.
>
> I didn't think of that, it makes sense.
>
> I still have no idea


We know.

Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> I still don't see an explanation for the kerosene smell. I assume
> nobody knows?
>
> I've often smelled jet-engine exhaust (mainly the smell of jet fuel)
> after landing. I assume this is exhaust partially drawn back into the
> engine and the packs, but I don't really know.

I know you don't. I do, though.




Bertie