Sealed Battery

[Doug Vetter]

It's battery replacement time for the 172 and I'm contemplating the
installation of a sealed battery to eliminate the destructive corrosion
that's plaguing our new battery box.

I've done some research courtesy of google and the consensus appears to be
that the sealed units function equally well as wet cell units as long as
they're kept charged, preferably with a smart charger like a "Battery
Tender" that can properly float the battery.

Many of the threads I read were several years old so I'd like to solicit
some current opinions on the use of sealed batteries before I write the
check. Opinions?

-Doug

--
--------------------
Doug Vetter, ATP/CFI

http://www.dvatp.com
--------------------

[RST Engineering]

We've had the Concorde RG (recombinant gas) in the 182 for five years and it
is one of the best things we ever did. IT is getting a little long in the
tooth, and about time for replacement, but so long as it keeps cranking the
engine, it is going to be with me. Replacement when the time comes will be
with another RG

According to the engineers at Concorde, whom I consulted before writing the
RG piece for Kitplanes some years ago, is that they like to be CYCLED, not
FLOATED. That is, they like to come up to 13.6, discharge to 12.5, up to
13.6 again and so on.

Jim

--
"If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right."
--Henry Ford


"Doug Vetter" > wrote in message
...

>
> Many of the threads I read were several years old so I'd like to solicit
> some current opinions on the use of sealed batteries before I write the
> check. Opinions?
>
> -Doug
>
> --
> --------------------
> Doug Vetter, ATP/CFI
>
> http://www.dvatp.com
> --------------------

[Newps]

Don't waste your money on a float charger. Lots of guys on a different
list went to the trouble of hooking up a float charger every time they
get back. A large percentage of these guys then return to the hangar to
find the battery cooked. I installed the Concorde RG 35AXC in my Bo
over a year ago. Much more cranking speed than the standard flooded
cell battery I replaced.

Doug Vetter wrote:

> It's battery replacement time for the 172 and I'm contemplating the
> installation of a sealed battery to eliminate the destructive corrosion
> that's plaguing our new battery box.
>
> I've done some research courtesy of google and the consensus appears to be
> that the sealed units function equally well as wet cell units as long as
> they're kept charged, preferably with a smart charger like a "Battery
> Tender" that can properly float the battery.
>
> Many of the threads I read were several years old so I'd like to solicit
> some current opinions on the use of sealed batteries before I write the
> check. Opinions?
>
> -Doug
>

[David Lesher]

Doug Vetter > writes:

>It's battery replacement time for the 172 and I'm contemplating the
>installation of a sealed battery to eliminate the destructive corrosion
>that's plaguing our new battery box.

Can't you do what I do on cars? I dump a bunch of baking soda
down before I install the battery, and every so often pour more
around [But NEVER on top..] the battery.


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Jack Allison]

We recently replaced the battery in the Arrow with a Concorde RG unit.
Several folks from the Cherokee Pilot's Association had done the same
and their RG was still cranking like new even after being in service
several years. Every person that had replaced their original battery
with the RG unit was happy they'd done so. So far, I'm a happy customer
too. Much better cranking, even when compared to our original battery's
performance a couple years ago.

We don't use a battery tender (and based on Jim's reply, sounds like we
really don't want/need to).

[Jim Burns[_2_]]

I could send you a few photos of the acid stains on our hanger floor left by
our hanger-mates Colt. He had a tender attached to his battery most of last
winter. Not sure what the bottom of his battery box looks like, but his A&P
finally convinced him to leave it off or only turn it on the day before he
flys.
Jim

"Jack Allison" > wrote in message
...
> We recently replaced the battery in the Arrow with a Concorde RG unit.
> Several folks from the Cherokee Pilot's Association had done the same
> and their RG was still cranking like new even after being in service
> several years. Every person that had replaced their original battery
> with the RG unit was happy they'd done so. So far, I'm a happy customer
> too. Much better cranking, even when compared to our original battery's
> performance a couple years ago.
>
> We don't use a battery tender (and based on Jim's reply, sounds like we
> really don't want/need to).
>

[[email protected]]

Newps > wrote:
> Don't waste your money on a float charger. Lots of guys on a different
> list went to the trouble of hooking up a float charger every time they
> get back. A large percentage of these guys then return to the hangar
> to find the battery cooked.

Disclaimer: This is based on experience with ground vehicles and
equipment. I don't have an A&P; I don't even have a TG&Y. Your mileage
may vary.

Were they using actual regulated chargers, that back off the current as
the battery comes up to full charge, or the ubitiquous 1 A "trickle
charger"/motorcycle battery charger? I've had pretty good luck with the
former (in ground starting-lights-ignition and traction applications)
and pretty bad luck with the latter, especially when used by people who
didn't understand how they worked. If they were using actual regulated
chargers, were they set for the charge characteristics of an absorbed
glass mat (or similar) battery vs. a flooded battery?

As far as I can tell, the continuum seems to be:

1. "Trickle chargers" made by a random Chinese company. These look
like a big wall transformer and may or may not have any regulation
whatsoever, but at least don't put out _that_ much current, and so
won't cook your battery quite as fast.

2. "Trickle chargers" made by someone you've heard of (like Schumacher)
that come in a metal box about 3"x3"x5" (8x8x13 cm), have both 120 V
and 12 V leads, are rated 1 A, and often have a 6 V / 12 V switch.
These aren't regulated, but if used intelligently, can be helpful in
maintaining a battery. You can't really plug them in and leave them,
unless you have a really big battery that is heavily discharged and
you want to charge it slowly.

3. Regulated chargers that charge in stages and back off the current as
the battery charges up. The smaller-capacity ones look like big
wall transformers, and the larger-capacity ones come in metal or
plastic boxes as above with both 120 V and 12 V leads. The DelTran
"Battery Tender" is the most well-known; Schumacher sells a "Battery
Companion" which appears to do the same thing. Most of them are
made to charge flooded batteries, but you can sometimes find
versions that are made to charge AGM or similar batteries.

Real regulated chargers used to be kind of hard to find and came at a
premium price. In the last few years, it seems that they are becoming
easier to find and cheaper.

Disclaimer: This is based on experience with ground vehicles and
equipment. I don't have an A&P; I don't even have a TG&Y. Your mileage
may vary.

Matt Roberds

[Newps]

wrote:


>
> Were they using actual regulated chargers, that back off the current as
> the battery comes up to full charge,

Yes. Set properly. The simple fact of the matter is that even if you
only fly once every two months there simply is no need for a charger of
any kind.

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Newps > wrote:

> Yes. Set properly. The simple fact of the matter is that even if you
> only fly once every two months there simply is no need for a charger of
> any kind.

really? The battery doesn't discharge over time?

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Newps]

Bob Noel wrote:
> In article >,
> Newps > wrote:
>
>
>>Yes. Set properly. The simple fact of the matter is that even if you
>>only fly once every two months there simply is no need for a charger of
>>any kind.
>
>
> really? The battery doesn't discharge over time?




Not enough to matter.

[Bob Fry]

I've been using a sealed battery for several years in an Aircoupe.

I haven't had much luck with the Gills...they seem to go flat after a
year or two. My flying is once a week at most, and sometimes gaps of
2-4 weeks. This is near Sacramento, California so it's hot in the
summer, cold but rarely freezing in the winter. That's hard on
batteries I guess but that's the way it is.

6 months ago I got a Concorde sealed battery with "extra cranking" and
it seems to work great. But I can't definitively compare it until a
couple of years pass. But so far I like it better than the Gill.
--
Life... is like a grapefruit. It's orange and squishy, and has a few
pips in it, and some folks have half a one for breakfast.
Douglas Adams

[Bob Fry]

Oh yeah. I don't use any charger between flights.
--
You know you've achieved perfection in design, not when you have
nothing more to add, but when you have nothing more to take away.
Antoine de Saint-Exupery, Wind, Sand and Stars

[[email protected]]

Doug Vetter wrote:
> It's battery replacement time for the 172 and I'm contemplating the
> installation of a sealed battery to eliminate the destructive corrosion
> that's plaguing our new battery box.

Doug: You need to also take a gander and see why you are having a
corrosion problem,
especially with a new box. Have you had your voltage regulator checked
and verified that
you are not overcharging the battery?

Also, there are acid proof paints that can be used on the box interior
that will help prevent
corrosion.

Craig

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Newps > wrote:

> >>Yes. Set properly. The simple fact of the matter is that even if you
> >>only fly once every two months there simply is no need for a charger of
> >>any kind.
> >
> > really? The battery doesn't discharge over time?
>
> Not enough to matter.

well, my airplane (pa-28-140) starts much much better if I put the
battery on an overnight charge when I don't fly it for a while. ymmv

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Denny]

Concorde RG is the only way to go...

Get a 'battery maintainer' for all your batteries... This little
gadget is 12.8 volts constant trickle about a 100 milliamps... It will
not boil your battery or harm it left on 24/7... I get mine at Harbor
Freight (cheap chinese junk) and have at least a dozen... The
batteries on the diesel tractors, dozers, etc. all cost a bloody
fortune and with the equipment not being started for 5 - 6 months out
of the year, and with temps hitting 20 below, you can go through a
lot of batteries/money every year or two...... Haven't lost a battery
that is on a maintainer until they get really old and battered...

denny

[Ronnie]

I had always used Gill G25s in my 172M, up until January of
this year. I always had slow cranking and sometimes no cranking
when the temp was 40 deg F or lower without charging the battery.

I made two changes in January.

I switched to the Concord RG-25XC and added the ability to connect
a DelTran Battery Tender when the airplane was in the hangar. During
the cooler months (can't say colder months since I'm in central Texas) I
use the Battery Tender between flight, but don't during the warmer months
(ok, ok during the hot months). If I recall correctly, the self discharge
of
the batterty is greater at high temperature rather than cold, so my useage
of the float charge might seem backward.

However, the charge voltage necessary to fully recharge the battery
increases
as temperature decreases. Therefore, unless the aircraft's voltage regulator
is
adjusted for temperature (which mine is not), at low temps the battery would
not be fully recharged during flight. If you adjust the voltage regulator
for proper
voltage to recharge the battyer during winter, it is too high for summer
operation.

Also, the ability of the battery to produce current is dimished as
temperature
drops. See the "Aircraft Battery Owner - Operator Manual" at this link
http://www.concordebattery.com/main_air_tech.php for Concord's view of
battery operation.

Therefore, I used the float charge during the winter months to get the
battery back
to 100% charged after each flight. Also, the fully charged state helped
provided the
heavier current required to turn over a cold soaked engine for the next
startup.

Anyway, since I made the change, I'm not once had the airplane fail to crank
and start, which I did numerous time before. Only time will tell how thie
Concord
RG-25XC holds up as compared to the Gill G-25, but so far it has been great.

Ronnie


"Doug Vetter" > wrote in message
...
> It's battery replacement time for the 172 and I'm contemplating the
> installation of a sealed battery to eliminate the destructive corrosion
> that's plaguing our new battery box.
>
> I've done some research courtesy of google and the consensus appears to be
> that the sealed units function equally well as wet cell units as long as
> they're kept charged, preferably with a smart charger like a "Battery
> Tender" that can properly float the battery.
>
> Many of the threads I read were several years old so I'd like to solicit
> some current opinions on the use of sealed batteries before I write the
> check. Opinions?
>
> -Doug
>
> --
> --------------------
> Doug Vetter, ATP/CFI
>
> http://www.dvatp.com
> --------------------

[karl gruber[_1_]]

I just went to m log books. I installed a Gill 243 in my Cessna 185 on
1/23/97, and it still works like brand new.

The secret is a desulphating battery charger, which I leave on continuously.

10+ years ain't bad................check the fluid level every quarter.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/el/chargersbattery.html


Karl

desulphating...................................... .....................................


"Ronnie" > wrote in message
t...
>I had always used Gill G25s in my 172M, up until January of
> this year. I always had slow cranking and sometimes no cranking
> when the temp was 40 deg F or lower without charging the battery.
>
> I made two changes in January.
>
> I switched to the Concord RG-25XC and added the ability to connect
> a DelTran Battery Tender when the airplane was in the hangar. During
> the cooler months (can't say colder months since I'm in central Texas) I
> use the Battery Tender between flight, but don't during the warmer months
> (ok, ok during the hot months). If I recall correctly, the self discharge
> of
> the batterty is greater at high temperature rather than cold, so my useage
> of the float charge might seem backward.
>
> However, the charge voltage necessary to fully recharge the battery
> increases
> as temperature decreases. Therefore, unless the aircraft's voltage
> regulator is
> adjusted for temperature (which mine is not), at low temps the battery
> would
> not be fully recharged during flight. If you adjust the voltage regulator
> for proper
> voltage to recharge the battyer during winter, it is too high for summer
> operation.
>
> Also, the ability of the battery to produce current is dimished as
> temperature
> drops. See the "Aircraft Battery Owner - Operator Manual" at this link
> http://www.concordebattery.com/main_air_tech.php for Concord's view of
> battery operation.
>
> Therefore, I used the float charge during the winter months to get the
> battery back
> to 100% charged after each flight. Also, the fully charged state helped
> provided the
> heavier current required to turn over a cold soaked engine for the next
> startup.
>
> Anyway, since I made the change, I'm not once had the airplane fail to
> crank
> and start, which I did numerous time before. Only time will tell how thie
> Concord
> RG-25XC holds up as compared to the Gill G-25, but so far it has been
> great.
>
> Ronnie
>
>
> "Doug Vetter" > wrote in message
> ...
>> It's battery replacement time for the 172 and I'm contemplating the
>> installation of a sealed battery to eliminate the destructive corrosion
>> that's plaguing our new battery box.
>>
>> I've done some research courtesy of google and the consensus appears to
>> be
>> that the sealed units function equally well as wet cell units as long as
>> they're kept charged, preferably with a smart charger like a "Battery
>> Tender" that can properly float the battery.
>>
>> Many of the threads I read were several years old so I'd like to solicit
>> some current opinions on the use of sealed batteries before I write the
>> check. Opinions?
>>
>> -Doug
>>
>> --
>> --------------------
>> Doug Vetter, ATP/CFI
>>
>> http://www.dvatp.com
>> --------------------
>
>

[Doug Vetter]

On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 05:24:41 -0700, Denny wrote:
> Concorde RG is the only way to go...

I had my A&P pull the battery today and he told me that leaking
electrolyte (the result of overcharging due to one or more weak cells) did
quite a number on our brand new battery box. He said it was "salvageable"
and my heart dropped. For $700 and a mere 6 months old, it better be.

That damage made the decision to go for the sealed unit a no-brainer, and
the comments in this thread made the decision to go with the Concorde. I
should have it installed by the weekend. Hopefully the weather won't suck
for my test flight.

The jury is still out on whether I'll put a Battery Tender on it, but my
experience with wet cell and AGM batteries is that they will last forever
if floated and fail alarmingly often if left to discharge. Guess we'll
wait and see.

Thanks to all who responded. Very interesting and helpful information.

-Doug

--
--------------------
Doug Vetter, ATP/CFI

http://www.dvatp.com
--------------------

[Clay[_2_]]

On Sep 4, 8:19 pm, Doug Vetter > wrote:
> On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 05:24:41 -0700, Denny wrote:
> > Concorde RG is the only way to go...
>
> I had my A&P pull the battery today and he told me that leaking
> electrolyte (the result of overcharging due to one or more weak cells) did
> quite a number on our brand new battery box. He said it was "salvageable"
> and my heart dropped. For $700 and a mere 6 months old, it better be.
>
> That damage made the decision to go for the sealed unit a no-brainer, and
> the comments in this thread made the decision to go with the Concorde. I
> should have it installed by the weekend. Hopefully the weather won't suck
> for my test flight.
>
> The jury is still out on whether I'll put a Battery Tender on it, but my
> experience with wet cell and AGM batteries is that they will last forever
> if floated and fail alarmingly often if left to discharge. Guess we'll
> wait and see.
>
> Thanks to all who responded. Very interesting and helpful information.
>
> -Doug
>
> --
> --------------------
> Doug Vetter, ATP/CFI
>
> --------------------

www.belzona.com
Belzona makes several products which work very well in battery boxes
or other areas which need protection from corrosion. CR1 also known
as CR Barrier, 4311 or 4301.
Another product is Belzona Immersion Grade also known as 5811.
Both of these products will do an excellent job at protecting the
battery box.
This stuff in not the cheap Devcon or acid paint you pick up at
Granger's.

[Ronnie]

I have bought a PulseTech pulse type charge which is supposed
to provide desulphating operation (as per Aviation Consumer and
per the various literature and patents I looked at) and used to to
try to restore a couple of Gills which were marginal. I got both
(a G25 and a G35) back to the point that they worked for a few
months ok, but when cooler weather hit, they just couldn't cut
muster.

The battery manufactures state that there is sufficient lead and reactants
in the typical lead-acid battery to last for 10 tens and that proper
maintenance is the key to long battery life. However, I've never been
able to get 10 years out of one no matter what I've tried.

The PulseTech charger in now on my boat and for the last two years,
it has been working as advertised on the boat's battery.

Ronnie

"karl gruber" > wrote in message
...
>I just went to m log books. I installed a Gill 243 in my Cessna 185 on
>1/23/97, and it still works like brand new.
>
> The secret is a desulphating battery charger, which I leave on
> continuously.
>
> 10+ years ain't bad................check the fluid level every quarter.
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/el/chargersbattery.html
>
>
> Karl
>
> desulphating...................................... .....................................
>
>
> "Ronnie" > wrote in message
> t...
>>I had always used Gill G25s in my 172M, up until January of
>> this year. I always had slow cranking and sometimes no cranking
>> when the temp was 40 deg F or lower without charging the battery.
>>
>> I made two changes in January.
>>
>> I switched to the Concord RG-25XC and added the ability to connect
>> a DelTran Battery Tender when the airplane was in the hangar. During
>> the cooler months (can't say colder months since I'm in central Texas) I
>> use the Battery Tender between flight, but don't during the warmer months
>> (ok, ok during the hot months). If I recall correctly, the self
>> discharge of
>> the batterty is greater at high temperature rather than cold, so my
>> useage
>> of the float charge might seem backward.
>>
>> However, the charge voltage necessary to fully recharge the battery
>> increases
>> as temperature decreases. Therefore, unless the aircraft's voltage
>> regulator is
>> adjusted for temperature (which mine is not), at low temps the battery
>> would
>> not be fully recharged during flight. If you adjust the voltage
>> regulator for proper
>> voltage to recharge the battyer during winter, it is too high for summer
>> operation.
>>
>> Also, the ability of the battery to produce current is dimished as
>> temperature
>> drops. See the "Aircraft Battery Owner - Operator Manual" at this link
>> http://www.concordebattery.com/main_air_tech.php for Concord's view of
>> battery operation.
>>
>> Therefore, I used the float charge during the winter months to get the
>> battery back
>> to 100% charged after each flight. Also, the fully charged state helped
>> provided the
>> heavier current required to turn over a cold soaked engine for the next
>> startup.
>>
>> Anyway, since I made the change, I'm not once had the airplane fail to
>> crank
>> and start, which I did numerous time before. Only time will tell how
>> thie Concord
>> RG-25XC holds up as compared to the Gill G-25, but so far it has been
>> great.
>>
>> Ronnie
>>
>>
>> "Doug Vetter" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> It's battery replacement time for the 172 and I'm contemplating the
>>> installation of a sealed battery to eliminate the destructive corrosion
>>> that's plaguing our new battery box.
>>>
>>> I've done some research courtesy of google and the consensus appears to
>>> be
>>> that the sealed units function equally well as wet cell units as long as
>>> they're kept charged, preferably with a smart charger like a "Battery
>>> Tender" that can properly float the battery.
>>>
>>> Many of the threads I read were several years old so I'd like to solicit
>>> some current opinions on the use of sealed batteries before I write the
>>> check. Opinions?
>>>
>>> -Doug
>>>
>>> --
>>> --------------------
>>> Doug Vetter, ATP/CFI
>>>
>>> http://www.dvatp.com
>>> --------------------
>>
>>
>
>

[Ross]

Doug Vetter wrote:
> On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 05:24:41 -0700, Denny wrote:
>
>>Concorde RG is the only way to go...
>
>
> I had my A&P pull the battery today and he told me that leaking
> electrolyte (the result of overcharging due to one or more weak cells) did
> quite a number on our brand new battery box. He said it was "salvageable"
> and my heart dropped. For $700 and a mere 6 months old, it better be.
>
> That damage made the decision to go for the sealed unit a no-brainer, and
> the comments in this thread made the decision to go with the Concorde. I
> should have it installed by the weekend. Hopefully the weather won't suck
> for my test flight.
>
> The jury is still out on whether I'll put a Battery Tender on it, but my
> experience with wet cell and AGM batteries is that they will last forever
> if floated and fail alarmingly often if left to discharge. Guess we'll
> wait and see.
>
> Thanks to all who responded. Very interesting and helpful information.
>
> -Doug
>

I have a Concorde in my Skyhawk with the 180 engine. It works great and
I never use a charger. This past year I have had to go 3 and 4 weeks
between starts and the engine turns and fires in just a couple of blades.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[Tri-Pacer]

If you need an STC for the Concord RG battery, stay away from Chief
Aircraft. When I asked if the STC was included I was told "The paper work
will be in the box" Guess what no STC!!!! I had to go elsewhere to buy the
STC.

Cheers:

Paul
N1431A
KPLU

[Doug Vetter]

On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 17:08:42 +0000, Doug Vetter wrote:
> Many of the threads I read were several years old so I'd like to solicit
> some current opinions on the use of sealed batteries before I write the
> check. Opinions?

Figured I'd post a follow up. I had the battery installed, the 337 signed
off, and took the airplane for a flight with the new Concorde RG-25XC
battery today.

I recall someone saying that the RG-XC battery would turn the starter
faster but I dismissed that comment because I figured the owner was
comparing it to the old and tired battery. Imagine my surprise when I
turned the key and watched the blades go by faster than I'd seen in the 15
years we've owned this airplane. All I can say is that next time you're
due for a battery you owe it to yourself to try the Concorde RG-XC series.

Oh, and by the way, whether you go wet cell or RG, stay away from the
Gill units. My mechanic confirmed (without prompting) that something has
happened to the quality of Gill batteries in the last couple of years.
Different manufacturer? Processes? He doesn't know, but he
pointed out that reliability is definitely down, and he now recommends
Concorde for most applications.

Thanks again to all for the advice!

-Doug

--
--------------------
Doug Vetter, ATP/CFI

http://www.dvatp.com
--------------------

[Allen[_1_]]

"Doug Vetter" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 17:08:42 +0000, Doug Vetter wrote:
> > Many of the threads I read were several years old so I'd like to solicit
> > some current opinions on the use of sealed batteries before I write the
> > check. Opinions?
>
> Figured I'd post a follow up. I had the battery installed, the 337 signed
> off, and took the airplane for a flight with the new Concorde RG-25XC
> battery today.
>
> I recall someone saying that the RG-XC battery would turn the starter
> faster but I dismissed that comment because I figured the owner was
> comparing it to the old and tired battery. Imagine my surprise when I
> turned the key and watched the blades go by faster than I'd seen in the 15
> years we've owned this airplane. All I can say is that next time you're
> due for a battery you owe it to yourself to try the Concorde RG-XC series.
>
> Oh, and by the way, whether you go wet cell or RG, stay away from the
> Gill units. My mechanic confirmed (without prompting) that something has
> happened to the quality of Gill batteries in the last couple of years.
> Different manufacturer? Processes? He doesn't know, but he
> pointed out that reliability is definitely down, and he now recommends
> Concorde for most applications.
>
> Thanks again to all for the advice!
>
> -Doug
>
> --
> --------------------
> Doug Vetter, ATP/CFI
>
> http://www.dvatp.com
> --------------------

Gill is owned by Teledyne Continental Motors.

--
*H. Allen Smith*
WACO - We are all here, because we are not all there.