Arrogant-bordering on belligerent-owners (was:GAMIjectors)

[[email protected][_1_]]

On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 23:12:48 -0700, "Matt Barrow"
> wrote:

>Okay...so I'm misunderstanding a wet top end. Still, you inferred the
>accusation that Newps was faking his compression levels, so put up or shut
>up.
>

Well Matt, rather than spending a lot of time trying to find a common
frame of reference (with thoughts of trying to teach a pig to sing),
I'll just repost my reply to one of your earlier attempts to read more
into one of my posts than was actually present.

>Are you freaking high? Are you able to read and comprehend the English
>language (or at least the variant used the US of A)?
>
>Find one sentence in this thread where I "denigrated" anything or
>anybody, other than you.
>
>My initial query concerning sheep quoting Avweb you have reinforced
>time and time again, without any help or encouragement on my part.
>
>You sir, have the 'group persona of an idiot. Again, I would
>respectfully suggest that you contact the guy that wrote the freaking
>book on GA LOP and ask him whether he recommends that a newbie owner
>(with limited/no experience of advanced engine management) of a Turbo
>Lance should take-off, grab the mixture control and yank, i.e..
>
>>>You might want to contact the LOP/GAMI guy and ask him first. Based on
>>>personal experience, turbo-supercharged TIO-540's have detonation
>>>issues during certain operating regimes. Am thinking the GAMI guy saw
>>>the same issues during testing.
>
>Unlike some other people that post in these groups, I post primarily
>about what I have allegedly seen-not what I have read, heard, or
>dreamed about after eating peyote. On occasion, I do relate what other
>people in the industry that I know and respect have allegedly told me
>first-person, therefore...
>
>>>If I had relevant LOP related info, I would share it. When I was
>>>getting out of the TIO-540 game, GAMI was just starting to do testing
>>>on Lycoming engines. I am familiar enuff with LOP theory and operation
>>>to know that before performing "the big pull" you should probably get
>>>educated, not just read about it in the 'groups.
>
>Where you are mistaken in this case is that I have the need/desire to
>convince "you" of anything. Or that I have any concern of my
>"credibility" whatsoever in any aspect of my 'group correspondence.
>I'm certain that my penis length (assuming I have one) is sufficient,
>and I couldn't give a flying-**** whether or not you can **** farther
>than I can.
>
>For all you know, I've never set foot in a hangar in my life, let
>alone worked on an airplane. By the same yardstick, with all the
>advanced knowledge and expertise in quoting other online sources
>you've shown me-it's possible you've got a poster of an A36 and a
>Tornado Alley Turbo bumpersticker on the wall of your bedroom and like
>to masturbate with one hand while typing with the other.
>
>The 'groups for me are just like reality TV and daytime drama, only
>with enuff GA content to keep me interested. I really should thank
>you, you've made an otherwise drab week rather enjoyable.

Perhaps you feel that your piloting/owning experiences make you a
unique individual, and to a certain extent they do.

Unfortunately, much of what you post here in the 'groups closely
resembles the common "ugly GA pilot/owner" stereotype.

With little regard;

TC

[Mike Spera]

;
> .lots of stuff snipped
>

My observation is that people appear to be gravitating towards the
extreme in many areas of life. I see it in religion, politics, finance,
and other places. Controlled, thoughtful, and mature dialog appears to
be eluding a growing number on this rock. Perhaps it is the medium of
the Internet that either causes or assists this acidic trend. A forum
veiled in anonymity where cryptic "handles" are the only way one
identifies themselves, coupled with niche discussion may be the problem.
I sincerely doubt that the dialogs I see on the Internet would take
place if the same two (or more) people would be standing face to face.

On the one hand, it is liberating to have the freedom to express views
with absolutely no fear from retribution. On the other, failure to honor
that tremendous freedom and carry on a dialog in an uncivil manner shows
the immaturity of some in our race.

Please consider delivering the same passion for the topic in a more
respectful manner. As you grow older, you may find you were/are not
"right" about everything (yes, even pilots).

Just a suggestion.
Mike

[ktbr]

Mike Spera wrote:
> ;
>
>> .lots of stuff snipped
>>
>
> My observation is that people appear to be gravitating towards the
> extreme in many areas of life. I see it in religion, politics, finance,
> and other places. Controlled, thoughtful, and mature dialog appears to
> be eluding a growing number on this rock. Perhaps it is the medium of
> the Internet that either causes or assists this acidic trend. A forum
> veiled in anonymity where cryptic "handles" are the only way one
> identifies themselves, coupled with niche discussion may be the problem.
> I sincerely doubt that the dialogs I see on the Internet would take
> place if the same two (or more) people would be standing face to face.
>
> On the one hand, it is liberating to have the freedom to express views
> with absolutely no fear from retribution. On the other, failure to honor
> that tremendous freedom and carry on a dialog in an uncivil manner shows
> the immaturity of some in our race.
>
> Please consider delivering the same passion for the topic in a more
> respectful manner. As you grow older, you may find you were/are not
> "right" about everything (yes, even pilots).
>
> Just a suggestion.
> Mike
>
>

Well Stated sir.

[Jay Honeck]

> Please consider delivering the same passion for the topic in a more
> respectful manner. As you grow older, you may find you were/are not
> "right" about everything (yes, even pilots).

Well put.

However, I feel the need to point out a couple of things. Over the
years I have oft-stated my disregard for people who post here under a
pseudonym. It always seems that the most visceral and acidic posts
come from the people who don't have the balls to identify
themselves.

Toecutter, however, is an exception to that rule. He universally
expresses himself in a level-headed, fair and balanced way, and is
incredibly knowledgable and willing to share his wisdom and
experiences. He has helped me countless times with aircraft problems
big and small, and was instrumental in my deciding to buy the
Pathfinder.

Further, he is also the kind of "anonymous" poster who will email you
off-group, and properly identify himself, IF you show respect and
manners. Once you are in his "circle of respect", you soon know his
entire family.

In short, Toecutter is good people -- and I'll defend to the death his
right to call me an arrogant and belligerant aircraft owner!

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim Burns]

Even "weller" said. And ditto.
Jim

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> Please consider delivering the same passion for the topic in a more
>> respectful manner. As you grow older, you may find you were/are not
>> "right" about everything (yes, even pilots).
>
> Well put.
>
> However, I feel the need to point out a couple of things. Over the
> years I have oft-stated my disregard for people who post here under a
> pseudonym. It always seems that the most visceral and acidic posts
> come from the people who don't have the balls to identify
> themselves.
>
> Toecutter, however, is an exception to that rule. He universally
> expresses himself in a level-headed, fair and balanced way, and is
> incredibly knowledgable and willing to share his wisdom and
> experiences. He has helped me countless times with aircraft problems
> big and small, and was instrumental in my deciding to buy the
> Pathfinder.
>
> Further, he is also the kind of "anonymous" poster who will email you
> off-group, and properly identify himself, IF you show respect and
> manners. Once you are in his "circle of respect", you soon know his
> entire family.
>
> In short, Toecutter is good people -- and I'll defend to the death his
> right to call me an arrogant and belligerant aircraft owner!
>
> ;-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

> Toecutter, however, is an exception to that rule.
>

And Matt Barrow is, too - the other way round.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[[email protected]]

On Sep 8, 4:59 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> > Please consider delivering the same passion for the topic in a more
> > respectful manner. As you grow older, you may find you were/are not
> > "right" about everything (yes, even pilots).
>
> Well put.
>
> However, I feel the need to point out a couple of things. Over the
> years I have oft-stated my disregard for people who post here under a
> pseudonym. It always seems that the most visceral and acidic posts
> come from the people who don't have the balls to identify
> themselves.
>
> Toecutter, however, is an exception to that rule. He universally
> expresses himself in a level-headed, fair and balanced way, and is
> incredibly knowledgable and willing to share his wisdom and
> experiences. He has helped me countless times with aircraft problems
> big and small, and was instrumental in my deciding to buy the
> Pathfinder.
>
> Further, he is also the kind of "anonymous" poster who will email you
> off-group, and properly identify himself, IF you show respect and
> manners. Once you are in his "circle of respect", you soon know his
> entire family.
>
> In short, Toecutter is good people -- and I'll defend to the death his
> right to call me an arrogant and belligerant aircraft owner!
>
> ;-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

There is another side to not using your name on usenet, although I
agree that using a "handle" allows people to be asses many times. On
this group, all I think you have to worry about is maybe some nasty
jawboning back and forth. On some others, there are definately people
that you don't want knowing your name and location; could be bad for
your health. On one group, some guy bragged about traveling to
someone's hometown and leaving some bullet holes in an adversary's
place of business. Need I say more. There are some real nut cases out
there. Come to think of it, this occurred on one of the aviation
groups.
As for belligerent owners, well we all know a few. However, I have
met too many A&Ps that I don't want anywhere near my airplane. How
about you? And some arrogant ones too. Just because they they know how
to work on them, they think they are engineers. Never opened a genuine
engineering textbook in their lives, but they'll make big fun of you
for stating even the most basic of facts that any undergraduate
enginneering student would easily know. And you can't even give them
references where they can check it out for themselves. They just
ignore you and go on arguing. They have their intuitions and don't
need you telling them anything. Not to mention having others see that
they were wrong about something. They'll never admit that, that's why
they won't bother finding out the facts, even when it would be so easy
to do. Hell, I'm wrong about things all the time. I just don't like to
stay that way. I try to find out and accept what I find.

Regards,
Bud

[[email protected]]

On Sep 8, 4:59 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> > Please consider delivering the same passion for the topic in a more
> > respectful manner. As you grow older, you may find you were/are not
> > "right" about everything (yes, even pilots).
>
> Well put.
>
> However, I feel the need to point out a couple of things. Over the
> years I have oft-stated my disregard for people who post here under a
> pseudonym. It always seems that the most visceral and acidic posts
> come from the people who don't have the balls to identify
> themselves.
>
> Toecutter, however, is an exception to that rule. He universally
> expresses himself in a level-headed, fair and balanced way, and is
> incredibly knowledgable and willing to share his wisdom and
> experiences. He has helped me countless times with aircraft problems
> big and small, and was instrumental in my deciding to buy the
> Pathfinder.
>
> Further, he is also the kind of "anonymous" poster who will email you
> off-group, and properly identify himself, IF you show respect and
> manners. Once you are in his "circle of respect", you soon know his
> entire family.
>
> In short, Toecutter is good people -- and I'll defend to the death his
> right to call me an arrogant and belligerant aircraft owner!
>
> ;-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

There is another side to not using your name on usenet, although I
agree that using a "handle" allows people to be asses many times. On
this group, all I think you have to worry about is maybe some nasty
jawboning back and forth. On some others, there are definately people
that you don't want knowing your name and location; could be bad for
your health. On one group, some guy bragged about traveling to
someone's hometown and leaving some bullet holes in an adversary's
place of business. Need I say more. There are some real nut cases out
there. Come to think of it, this occurred on one of the aviation
groups.
As for belligerent owners, well we all know a few. However, I
have
met too many A&Ps that I don't want anywhere near my airplane. How
about you? And some arrogant ones too. Just because they they know
how
to work on them, they think they are engineers. Never opened a
genuine
engineering textbook in their lives, but they'll make big fun of you
for stating even the most basic of facts that any undergraduate
enginneering student would easily know. And you can't even give them
references where they can check it out for themselves. They just
ignore you and go on arguing. They have their intuitions and don't
need you telling them anything. Not to mention having others see that
they were wrong about something. They'll never admit that, that's why
they won't bother finding out the facts, even when it would be so
easy
to do. Hell, I'm wrong about things all the time. I just don't like
to
stay that way. I try to find out and accept what I find.

Regards,
Bud

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

"Jay Honeck" wrote:

>
> Toecutter, however, is an exception to that rule. He universally
> expresses himself in a level-headed, fair and balanced way, and is
> incredibly knowledgable and willing to share his wisdom and
> experiences.

Amen.

TC is one of those people who make usenet a gold mine. You have sift a lot of
sand to find the gold, but it's here.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

[Blueskies]

> wrote in message ...
>
> Well Matt, rather than spending a lot of time trying to find a common
> frame of reference (with thoughts of trying to teach a pig to sing),
> I'll just repost my reply to one of your earlier attempts to read more
> into one of my posts than was actually present.
>
> Unfortunately, much of what you post here in the 'groups closely
> resembles the common "ugly GA pilot/owner" stereotype.
>
> With little regard;
>
> TC

That's the reason I 'ploinked' him long ago...

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Blueskies" > wrote in message
et...
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Well Matt, rather than spending a lot of time trying to find a common
>> frame of reference (with thoughts of trying to teach a pig to sing),
>> I'll just repost my reply to one of your earlier attempts to read more
>> into one of my posts than was actually present.

Well, let's see: Newps makes a statement about his compression ratings and
you come back with how such readings can be faked. Where I come from, that's
"calling someone a liar".

>>
>> Unfortunately, much of what you post here in the 'groups closely
>> resembles the common "ugly GA pilot/owner" stereotype.

How about this?: "Hey, Newps, under such and such conditions, you can get
false readings on compression tests.


>>
>> With little regard;

My regard for you just fell into the basement.

Speaking of "UGLY", go look in a mirror.


>>
>> TC

>
> That's the reason I 'ploinked' him long ago...

Likewise to you.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Jay Honeck" wrote:
>
>
> Toecutter, however, is an exception to that rule. He universally
> expresses himself in a level-headed, fair and balanced way, and is
> incredibly knowledgable and willing to share his wisdom and
> experiences.

Unfortunately, clarity is not his strong point, at least in this case

As I mentioned in another post regarding his response to Newps claim about
his compression tests: "How about this?: "Hey, Newps, under such and such
conditions, you can get false readings on compression tests."

In his reply he presents such a mangled scenario that might be inferred as
calling Newps a fake or a liar.

He says I'm reading too much into it, but that's the risk one takes in being
exceptionally brief.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Blueskies" > wrote in message
et...
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Well Matt, rather than spending a lot of time trying to find a common
>> frame of reference (with thoughts of trying to teach a pig to sing),
>> I'll just repost my reply to one of your earlier attempts to read more
>> into one of my posts than was actually present.
>>
>> Unfortunately, much of what you post here in the 'groups closely
>> resembles the common "ugly GA pilot/owner" stereotype.
>>
>> With little regard;
>>
>> TC
>
> That's the reason I 'ploinked' him long ago...

See Dan Thomas' assessment in the parallel thread.

Then GFY.

[Thomas Borchert]

Blueskies,

> That's the reason I 'ploinked' him long ago...
>

You're not alone.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Jay Honeck]

> I have met too many A&Ps that I don't want anywhere near my airplane. How
> about you? And some arrogant ones too. Just because they they know
> how to work on them, they think they are engineers. Never opened a
> genuine engineering textbook in their lives, but they'll make big fun of you
> for stating even the most basic of facts that any undergraduate
> enginneering student would easily know. And you can't even give them
> references where they can check it out for themselves. They just
> ignore you and go on arguing. They have their intuitions and don't
> need you telling them anything.

This is very true. Even my A&P, who is a great friend and mentor to
me, occasionally betrays this trait. I suppose it comes from decades
of experience working with owners who think they know everything?

I'm no engineer, but my A&P used to go absolutely nuts when I would
research a problem on-line before taking it to him. I innocently
figured it was best to get some good input from you guys (and others)
for him to work with BEFORE ripping into the plane, but he would just
go on and on about "Getting your information from those internet
people" -- as if it was like hanging out with unwashed homeless people
or sumpin'...

;-)

Now, after many years (and seeing that, on occasion, I was able to
point him in the right direction with an aircraft problem) he is much
more accepting of this sort of input -- but I suspect he still
privately makes fun of it...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[El Maximo]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...

> people who don't have the balls to identify themselves.

And then there are those of us who have stopped posting using real names
after having received credible death threats for posting unpopular views.

[Kloudy via AviationKB.com]

Blueskies wrote:
>
>That's the reason I 'ploinked' him long ago...

What is a "ploink" ?

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/aviation/200709/1

[Thomas Borchert]

Kloudy,

> What is a "ploink" ?
>

Correct spelling is "plonk", a slang term for adding a person to a
killfile. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plonk

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Kloudy via AviationKB.com" <u33403@uwe> wrote in message
news:7805077002cb6@uwe...
> Blueskies wrote:
>>
>>That's the reason I 'ploinked' him long ago...
>
> What is a "ploink" ?

A typical mangled response of a overgrown adolasent who hasn't made a dimes
worth of sense in any of his posts.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"El Maximo" > wrote in message
...
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>> people who don't have the balls to identify themselves.
>
> And then there are those of us who have stopped posting using real names
> after having received credible death threats for posting unpopular views.

And maybe not even death threats, and even mild threats are not credible.
However, what is it that people can't separate the message from the
messenger? Does it really matter who the person is who posts? Isn't the
critical issue the credibility of WHAT they say?

So where did so many pick up the stalker mentality?

I suppose those snotballs would have taken issue with the authors of The
Federalist papers.

[[email protected]]

On Sep 9, 10:16 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> > I have met too many A&Ps that I don't want anywhere near my airplane. How
> > about you? And some arrogant ones too. Just because they they know
> > how to work on them, they think they are engineers. Never opened a
> > genuine engineering textbook in their lives, but they'll make big fun of you
> > for stating even the most basic of facts that any undergraduate
> > enginneering student would easily know. And you can't even give them
> > references where they can check it out for themselves. They just
> > ignore you and go on arguing. They have their intuitions and don't
> > need you telling them anything.
>
> This is very true. Even my A&P, who is a great friend and mentor to
> me, occasionally betrays this trait. I suppose it comes from decades
> of experience working with owners who think they know everything?
>
> I'm no engineer, but my A&P used to go absolutely nuts when I would
> research a problem on-line before taking it to him. I innocently
> figured it was best to get some good input from you guys (and others)
> for him to work with BEFORE ripping into the plane, but he would just
> go on and on about "Getting your information from those internet
> people" -- as if it was like hanging out with unwashed homeless people
> or sumpin'...
>
> ;-)
>
> Now, after many years (and seeing that, on occasion, I was able to
> point him in the right direction with an aircraft problem) he is much
> more accepting of this sort of input -- but I suspect he still
> privately makes fun of it...
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

I have had similar dealings with some of my mechanics. Often they have
experience that you can't get in a textbook. Knowledge isn't found
only from a book. I certainly don;t mean to imply that mechanics and
owners are the only arrogant people you find. Some of the most
arrogant people I have met have been engineers. You know, the ones
that think they know everything because they've been to college.
Toecutter and Dan have always seemed to share good experience with
other owners here. I have always valued their inputs to the group. Sad
to see the occasional fight over really a difference of opinion.
Matt has used LOP for a while with excellent results so he believes
strongly in it.

Regards,
Bud

[RST Engineering]

So where do you rank the A&Ps who are also engineers?

{;-)

Jim
VP Engineering, RST
A&P/IA

--
"If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right."
--Henry Ford



> wrote in message
ps.com...
I certainly don;t mean to imply that mechanics and
> owners are the only arrogant people you find. Some of the most
> arrogant people I have met have been engineers.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

> wrote in message
ps.com...
> On Sep 9, 10:16 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> Matt has used LOP for a while with excellent results so he believes
> strongly in it.

And I believe in it because I read a book (okay, a series of articles They
even had charts!!!) that documented the physics and engineering involved
before I tried it. The, I took a weekend seminar about it.

Some people, though, can't get over that the old way is not the BEST way.

As Tolstoy put it:

"I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest
complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it
be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they
delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to
others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of
their lives." - Tolstoy

Jay (and others) might recognize that I'm about the most (healthily, IMO)
skeptical about claims, particularly those based on anecdote or, even worse,
faith.

--
Matt Barrow
Performance Homes, LLC.
Cheyenne, WY

[[email protected]]

On Sep 10, 7:02 pm, "RST Engineering" > wrote:
> So where do you rank the A&Ps who are also engineers?
>
> {;-)
>
> Jim
> VP Engineering, RST
> A&P/IA
>
> --
> "If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right."
> --Henry Ford
>
> > wrote in message
>
> ps.com...
> I certainly don;t mean to imply that mechanics and
>
>
>
> > owners are the only arrogant people you find. Some of the most
> > arrogant people I have met have been engineers.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Oh, I guess they can either be the best of the best, or the worst of
the worst, depending on their attitude. ;)

Regards,
Bud

[Jay Honeck]

> I suppose those snotballs would have taken issue with the authors of The
> Federalist papers.

In my business I literally meet all kinds of people, from every walk
of life. Most are fine folks, and are easy to get along with, so
long as you treat them with respect.

Others, however, are just friggin' nuts.

This is to be expected in a society that unilaterally emptied the
asylums without providing an alternative -- all in the name of
"personal freedom".

>From where I sit, however, the reasons for the problem don't matter.
The fact is that these people exist, and -- whatever the reason for
their attitudes and oddities -- the only viable course of action is to
give them the bum's rush down the road.

It's no different here in rec.aviation than it is anywhere else.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> I suppose those snotballs would have taken issue with the authors of The
>> Federalist papers.
>
> In my business I literally meet all kinds of people, from every walk
> of life. Most are fine folks, and are easy to get along with, so
> long as you treat them with respect.

So?

>
> Others, however, are just friggin' nuts.
>
> This is to be expected in a society that unilaterally emptied the
> asylums without providing an alternative -- all in the name of
> "personal freedom".
>
>>From where I sit, however, the reasons for the problem don't matter.
> The fact is that these people exist, and -- whatever the reason for
> their attitudes and oddities -- the only viable course of action is to
> give them the bum's rush down the road.
>
> It's no different here in rec.aviation than it is anywhere else.

(Great example going off on a tangent...if one could even call it
tangential)

And that has...what, to do with their using their real name, an alias, or a
pseudonym?

Again, you're conflating the message with the messenger.