Not 1, but 2 reports

[Kevin Clarke]

2 reports on the evening news today (Boston area) on small plane
crashes. A C172M crashed at Mansfield, Ma. 4 people on board, 2
fatalities. This was on Saturday, a day that produced record high
temperatures for the area. Density altitude/overloading problem?

Then we had a C150 emergency land on Route 3. Ran out of gas. No
injuries, no damage. Tied up traffic though.

Incident 2 was certainly avoidable, incident 1 was most likely as well.

We're the stewards of GA's reputation. Take care out there. Being sloppy
is not only dangerous but it injures all of us. Preaching to the choir...

KC

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Kevin Clarke > wrote:

> 2 reports on the evening news today (Boston area) on small plane
> crashes. A C172M crashed at Mansfield, Ma. 4 people on board, 2
> fatalities. This was on Saturday, a day that produced record high
> temperatures for the area. Density altitude/overloading problem?

The 95 degrees only put the DA near 2500'. Assuming they weren't
using the 2200' turf runway, shouldn't 3500' have been enough runway
for a properly loaded/properly functioning 172M?

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Kevin Clarke]

Bob Noel wrote:
> In article >,
> Kevin Clarke > wrote:
>
>
>> 2 reports on the evening news today (Boston area) on small plane
>> crashes. A C172M crashed at Mansfield, Ma. 4 people on board, 2
>> fatalities. This was on Saturday, a day that produced record high
>> temperatures for the area. Density altitude/overloading problem?
>>
>
> The 95 degrees only put the DA near 2500'. Assuming they weren't
> using the 2200' turf runway, shouldn't 3500' have been enough runway
> for a properly loaded/properly functioning 172M?
>
>
From reports, they got airborne, so the runway length wasn't the issue.
Their climbout would have been reduced due to weight and higher than
normal DA. I'm guessing a stall on climbout with a higher gross weight
and a CG aft of "normal". The pilot couldn't recover. Like I said,
guessing. There is no NTSB report yet, obviously. Either way, it is sad.

KC

[Jon]

On Sep 9, 6:22 pm, Kevin Clarke > wrote:
> 2 reports on the evening news today (Boston area) on small plane
> crashes. [...]

> Then we had a C150 emergency land on Route 3. Ran out of gas. No
> injuries, no damage. Tied up traffic though.

Just saw a news report. Apparently, he took off from ME, ran into some
weather in NH, landed, then took off again. His destination was
Hopedale.

Route 3 can be a fairly dense with traffic, so it was a good thing it
wasn't on a weekday, say during rush hour. They said he touched down
in the Tyngsboro area. It must have been quite the site to be driving
in a car.

>[...]

Regards,
Jon

[B A R R Y]

On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 19:22:13 -0400, Bob Noel
> wrote:

>The 95 degrees only put the DA near 2500'. Assuming they weren't
>using the 2200' turf runway, shouldn't 3500' have been enough runway
>for a properly loaded/properly functioning 172M?

News reports state 4 mid-30's male occupants were aboard and "at least
2 golf bags" were in the wreckage. Rented airplane from Maine, pilot
has had his ticket around a year.

I read a quote from a pilot witness who was attending an EAA fly-in
who thought that the plane took a long time to gain speed, although
the engine sounded fine, and failed to gain much altitude, then
turned, stalled, and went straight in. The photos are awful, and
bear out the straight-in reports.

Another report I read stated that the pilot made a mayday call that he
couldn't "clear the trees", and was turning back to the field.

Apparently, the plane arrived in Mansfield with three aboard, and the
forth (maybe with a golf bag?) boarded there, for trip over to Cape
Cod for a golf trip. Since most courses worth flying to usually don't
allow sharing clubs, you have to wonder if the plane had four guys and
four golf bags. Mansfield is a 30 minute or so hop to pretty much
anywhere on the Cape with an airport, so he wouldn't have needed lots
of fuel.

On a side note, Skylune might live in that area...

[[email protected]]

On Sep 9, 7:33 pm, Kevin Clarke > wrote:
> Bob Noel wrote:
> > In article >,
> > Kevin Clarke > wrote:
>
> >> 2 reports on the evening news today (Boston area) on small plane
> >> crashes. A C172M crashed at Mansfield, Ma. 4 people on board, 2
> >> fatalities. This was on Saturday, a day that produced record high
> >> temperatures for the area. Density altitude/overloading problem?
>
> > The 95 degrees only put the DA near 2500'. Assuming they weren't
> > using the 2200' turf runway, shouldn't 3500' have been enough runway
> > for a properly loaded/properly functioning 172M?
>
> From reports, they got airborne, so the runway length wasn't the issue.
> Their climbout would have been reduced due to weight and higher than
> normal DA. I'm guessing a stall on climbout with a higher gross weight
> and a CG aft of "normal". The pilot couldn't recover. Like I said,
> guessing. There is no NTSB report yet, obviously. Either way, it is sad.
>
> KC


Four, 30 somethings males + 4 sets of golf clubs (off to play on the
Cape) + 90+F + humidity + ? in a 172M. EAA fly in going on at the
time so lots of good witnesses. Pilot made a radio call that he could
not clear the trees and was turning back - this was followed by stall/
spin. Very tragic in that there were several accounts that he could
have indeed cleared the trees if he would have continued, also tragic
that so many members of the general public witnessed this as the fly-
in is a popular local event. jeff

[Judah]

wrote in news:1189382647.136590.257600
@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com:

> Four, 30 somethings males + 4 sets of golf clubs (off to play on the
> Cape) + 90+F + humidity + ? in a 172M. EAA fly in going on at the
> time so lots of good witnesses. Pilot made a radio call that he could
> not clear the trees and was turning back - this was followed by stall/
> spin. Very tragic in that there were several accounts that he could
> have indeed cleared the trees if he would have continued, also tragic
> that so many members of the general public witnessed this as the fly-
> in is a popular local event. jeff


How much, exactly, did each of the 30-something males weigh?

How much fuel was aboard the plane?



I think it is best to reserve judgement until all the facts are available.

[[email protected]]

On Sep 9, 9:54 pm, Judah > wrote:
> wrote in news:1189382647.136590.257600
> @r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Four, 30 somethings males + 4 sets of golf clubs (off to play on the
> > Cape) + 90+F + humidity + ? in a 172M. EAA fly in going on at the
> > time so lots of good witnesses. Pilot made a radio call that he could
> > not clear the trees and was turning back - this was followed by stall/
> > spin. Very tragic in that there were several accounts that he could
> > have indeed cleared the trees if he would have continued, also tragic
> > that so many members of the general public witnessed this as the fly-
> > in is a popular local event. jeff
>
> How much, exactly, did each of the 30-something males weigh?
>
> How much fuel was aboard the plane?
>
> I think it is best to reserve judgement until all the facts are available.

Sorry you read a judgment somewhere, please re-read - just stating
facts as reported and expressing the tragedy of the scene - I happened
to be there and I am based there. Fly safe.

[John Clear]

In article >,
Judah > wrote:
wrote in news:1189382647.136590.257600
:
>
>> Four, 30 somethings males + 4 sets of golf clubs (off to play on the
>> Cape) + 90+F + humidity + ? in a 172M. EAA fly in going on at the
>
>How much, exactly, did each of the 30-something males weigh?
>
>How much fuel was aboard the plane?

Using FAA standard 170 pound passengers, 50 pounds for the golf
clubs (probably way low) and just 20 gallons of fuel, and the W&B
numbers from a 172M I'm familiar with, I calculate the weight to
be just over MGTW, and the CG to be towards the aft end of the
envelope.

Even if the passengers where FAA standard 170 pounders, the golf
clubs likely weighed more, and there was likely more then the bare
minimum of fuel on board.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/

[Andrew Sarangan]

On Sep 9, 6:22 pm, Kevin Clarke > wrote:
> 2 reports on the evening news today (Boston area) on small plane
> crashes. A C172M crashed at Mansfield, Ma. 4 people on board, 2
> fatalities. This was on Saturday, a day that produced record high
> temperatures for the area. Density altitude/overloading problem?
>
> Then we had a C150 emergency land on Route 3. Ran out of gas. No
> injuries, no damage. Tied up traffic though.
>
> Incident 2 was certainly avoidable, incident 1 was most likely as well.
>
> We're the stewards of GA's reputation. Take care out there. Being sloppy
> is not only dangerous but it injures all of us. Preaching to the choir...
>
> KC

I have found that heat has an adverse effect on piloting ability as
well. When it is 90F outside, the cockpit could be 110 or higher. All
that heat and sweat and makes me irritable and impatient, and wanting
to get airborne as quickly as possible to get some cool air flowing.
It is easy to make poor takeoff decisions under those circumstances.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Kevin Clarke" > wrote in message
...
>2 reports on the evening news today (Boston area) on small plane crashes. A
>C172M crashed at Mansfield, Ma. 4 people on board, 2 fatalities. This was
>on Saturday, a day that produced record high temperatures for the area.
>Density altitude/overloading problem?

Were those density altitudes higher than they were in July?

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Matt Barrow wrote:
>
> Were those density altitudes higher than they were in July?


They may have been. Southern New England seemed seasonally cool this July.

[Kevin Clarke]

Matt Barrow wrote:
> "Kevin Clarke" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> 2 reports on the evening news today (Boston area) on small plane crashes. A
>> C172M crashed at Mansfield, Ma. 4 people on board, 2 fatalities. This was
>> on Saturday, a day that produced record high temperatures for the area.
>> Density altitude/overloading problem?
>>
>
> Were those density altitudes higher than they were in July?
>
>
>
>
maybe, maybe not. But it is irrelevant. That plane, with that low time
pilot, with that MGTW, on that day was not there in July.

KC

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
B A R R Y > wrote:

> > Were those density altitudes higher than they were in July?
>
> They may have been. Southern New England seemed seasonally cool this July.

I'm pretty sure we had some hotter days this summer than the 95 or so on
the 8th. In any case, Mansfield is only 122' msl.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[El Maximo]

"Judah" > wrote in message
>
> How much, exactly, did each of the 30-something males weigh?
>
> How much fuel was aboard the plane?
>
>
>
> I think it is best to reserve judgement until all the facts are available.

Yup. Good advice. Don't even think about what can go wrong. Wait until
everyone forgets about it and someday just read through the NTSB final
reports.

[Judah]

wrote in news:1189391347.721878.4800@
22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com:

> On Sep 9, 9:54 pm, Judah > wrote:
>> I think it is best to reserve judgement until all the facts are available.
>
> Sorry you read a judgment somewhere, please re-read - just stating
> facts as reported and expressing the tragedy of the scene - I happened
> to be there and I am based there. Fly safe.

You're right. I think I responded to the wrong post. I read your post
immediately after one that basically just stated "he was overweight".
Sorry.

[Judah]

"El Maximo" > wrote in news:OW9Fi.83068$ax1.73465
@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:

>> I think it is best to reserve judgement until all the facts are available.
>
> Yup. Good advice. Don't even think about what can go wrong. Wait until
> everyone forgets about it and someday just read through the NTSB final

Or better yet, never fly with 4 people in an airplane because somebody died
yesterday doing so.

[Judah]

(John Clear) wrote in news:fc2bbc$9gj$1
@reader1.panix.com:

> In article >,
> Judah > wrote:
wrote in news:1189382647.136590.257600
:
>>
>>> Four, 30 somethings males + 4 sets of golf clubs (off to play on the
>>> Cape) + 90+F + humidity + ? in a 172M. EAA fly in going on at the
>>
>>How much, exactly, did each of the 30-something males weigh?
>>
>>How much fuel was aboard the plane?
>
> Using FAA standard 170 pound passengers, 50 pounds for the golf
> clubs (probably way low) and just 20 gallons of fuel, and the W&B
> numbers from a 172M I'm familiar with, I calculate the weight to
> be just over MGTW, and the CG to be towards the aft end of the
> envelope.
>
> Even if the passengers where FAA standard 170 pounders, the golf
> clubs likely weighed more, and there was likely more then the bare
> minimum of fuel on board.

Your entire theory is based on speculations, though.

For example, it was reported that the flight was destined for Cape Cod. In
a 172, 20 gallons should have been enough even with proper reserves.

I have never met an "FAA Standard Passenger". So the weights of the
passengers could have been more or less than what you described.

The link below represents an example of a Cessna 172M that has a useful
load of 885lbs. The total weight that you described in your example is
850lb, quite a bit below the 885 listed here. So your argument is faulty.

http://www.bordenflyingclub.com/cmqperformance.shtml

Weight & Balance could have been an issue, sure. But it could also have NOT
been the issue.

[El Maximo]

"Judah" > wrote in message
. ..
> "El Maximo" > wrote in news:OW9Fi.83068$ax1.73465
> @bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>
>>> I think it is best to reserve judgement until all the facts are
>>> available.
>>
>> Yup. Good advice. Don't even think about what can go wrong. Wait until
>> everyone forgets about it and someday just read through the NTSB final
>
> Or better yet, never fly with 4 people in an airplane because somebody
> died
> yesterday doing so.

Or better still, give up flying entirely. Somebody died yesterday doing so.

Personally, I'll continue wondering why things happen, and hopefully not
repeat those mistakes myself. You can stick your head in the sand if you
want.

[Judah]

"El Maximo" > wrote in news:utaFi.83141$ax1.49182
@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:

> Personally, I'll continue wondering why things happen, and hopefully not
> repeat those mistakes myself. You can stick your head in the sand if you
> want.

Wondering why things happen does nothing to prevent you from repeating a
mistake made by someone else.

Reserving judgement until actual FACTS can be analyzed is a far cry from
sticking one's head in the sand. In fact, your method of assuming you know
anything about an accident because you read a post on the internet that
refers to a news story on television is much closer to sticking your head in
the sand than waiting for geniune information.

You might as well source Wikipedia.


I hear too many "old pilots' tales" that were started because some pilot
assumed that something he saw another pilot do caused hurt to a plane or a
pilot.

[[email protected]]

On Sep 10, 11:53 am, Judah > wrote:
> "El Maximo" > wrote in news:utaFi.83141$ax1.49182
> @bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>
> > Personally, I'll continue wondering why things happen, and hopefully not
> > repeat those mistakes myself. You can stick your head in the sand if you
> > want.
>
> Wondering why things happen does nothing to prevent you from repeating a
> mistake made by someone else.
>
> Reserving judgement until actual FACTS can be analyzed is a far cry from
> sticking one's head in the sand. In fact, your method of assuming you know
> anything about an accident because you read a post on the internet that
> refers to a news story on television is much closer to sticking your head in
> the sand than waiting for geniune information.
>
> You might as well source Wikipedia.
>
> I hear too many "old pilots' tales" that were started because some pilot
> assumed that something he saw another pilot do caused hurt to a plane or a
> pilot.

So why were you reading this thread in the first place?

[El Maximo]

> wrote in message
>> I hear too many "old pilots' tales" that were started because some pilot
>> assumed that something he saw another pilot do caused hurt to a plane or
>> a
>> pilot.
>
> So why were you reading this thread in the first place?
>

He wants to grow up to be just like his hero, MX

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Kevin Clarke" > wrote in message
...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>> "Kevin Clarke" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> 2 reports on the evening news today (Boston area) on small plane
>>> crashes. A C172M crashed at Mansfield, Ma. 4 people on board, 2
>>> fatalities. This was on Saturday, a day that produced record high
>>> temperatures for the area. Density altitude/overloading problem?
>>>
>>
>> Were those density altitudes higher than they were in July?
>>
>>
>>
>>
> maybe, maybe not. But it is irrelevant. That plane, with that low time
> pilot, with that MGTW, on that day was not there in July.

Possibly, but we have 172's take off out here in the mountainous west all
summer, and we START at 5500-6000 feet, not the 100 some odd feet in MA.


--
Matt Barrow
Performance Homes, LLC.
Cheyenne, WY

[Judah]

wrote in
oups.com:

> On Sep 10, 11:53 am, Judah > wrote:
>> You might as well source Wikipedia.
>
> So why were you reading this thread in the first place?

Because I found it interesting.

Why are you reading it?

[Judah]

"El Maximo" > wrote in news:06fFi.83806$ax1.82618
@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:

> > wrote in message
>>> I hear too many "old pilots' tales" that were started because some pilot
>>> assumed that something he saw another pilot do caused hurt to a plane or
>>> a
>>> pilot.
>>
>> So why were you reading this thread in the first place?
>>
>
> He wants to grow up to be just like his hero, MX

You're kidding, right?

I'm a troll because I don't want to jump on the "it must have been
overweight" bandwagon based on a television report?

Maybe it was Brittany Spears.

[[email protected]]

On Sep 9, 6:22 pm, Kevin Clarke > wrote:
> A C172M crashed at Mansfield, Ma. 4 people on board, 2
> fatalities. This was on Saturday, a day that produced record high
> temperatures for the area. Density altitude/overloading problem?
>

Turns out there is a video tape of the 1B9 accident (in addition to
all the witnesses) so that will greatly help investigation. jeff

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"B A R R Y" > wrote in message
t...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>> Were those density altitudes higher than they were in July?
>
>
> They may have been. Southern New England seemed seasonally cool this
> July.

Someone posited that it was 95F.

I'd rather that 95F there, than in Denver or Cheyenne, which we do hit
frequently, from June through August.
--
Matt Barrow
Performance Homes, LLC.
Cheyenne, WY