A gaggle of questions about traning from an old geezer...

[SimGuy]

Hello everyone,

After gaining by ticket in 1993 at KOAK my logbook was moth-balled and
I haven't flown again until last month. After regaining currency I
would like to try and ascend through the tiers and maybe, one day,
hold a Commercial License with Instrument rating. I currently have 85
hours logged as PIC, of which 10 are solo x-country.

Now to my questions:

1) My motivation may be a little unrealistic, in an ideal world I
would like to switch careers and become a professional pilot, however,
at 40 I'm probably too old. The airlines probably wouldn't be
interested, but could I do something else?

2) I have a fulltime job and family, so a fast-track type school is
out of the question. My current plan is to enroll with a local flight
school and fly as much as possible, however, I'm confused about the
order in which I should do things. Does it make sense to do instrument
first? I've read about combined instrument/commercial training. Should
I even worry about multi-engine at this point?

3) Regarding the required 50 hours x-country time for the instrument
rating. I am confused about the circumstances in which 2 pilots can
both log PIC simultaneously. My understanding was that one
circumstance is when PIC#1 manipulates the controls under the hood and
PIC#2 acts as safety pilot. Is this the only case or can two private
pilots log x-country simultaneously on a regular trip (more than 50nm
etc.)?

4) During training (with the instructor), how much flying, if any, is
performed in actual IMC? I ask because I would like to fly early in
the morning, and on most days, OAK is 1000' overcast until after 9am.

Thanks in advance for your patience.

SimGuy

[Dave Butler]

SimGuy wrote:

> 3) Regarding the required 50 hours x-country time for the instrument
> rating. I am confused about the circumstances in which 2 pilots can
> both log PIC simultaneously. My understanding was that one
> circumstance is when PIC#1 manipulates the controls under the hood and
> PIC#2 acts as safety pilot. Is this the only case or can two private
> pilots log x-country simultaneously on a regular trip (more than 50nm
> etc.)?

Read the regulations and interpret them literally.

What you get here will be opinions with no particular authority. If
that's what you want, here's my opinion:
If the two pilots agree beforehand that the safety pilot will act as
PIC, then the safety pilot can log PIC because he IS PIC, and the
pilot-flying can log PIC because he is the sole manipulator of the controls.

More opinion: this is an unnecessary complication. Just fly the hours
and don't try to be tricky.

>
> 4) During training (with the instructor), how much flying, if any, is
> performed in actual IMC? I ask because I would like to fly early in
> the morning, and on most days, OAK is 1000' overcast until after 9am.

That depends on your instructor, and how much confidence he has in you
keeping the shiny side up.

[Mitty]

On 9/10/2007 9:27 AM, Dave Butler wrote the following:
> SimGuy wrote:
>>
>> 4) During training (with the instructor), how much flying, if any, is
>> performed in actual IMC? I ask because I would like to fly early in
>> the morning, and on most days, OAK is 1000' overcast until after 9am.
>
> That depends on your instructor, and how much confidence he has in you
> keeping the shiny side up.

If your instructor won't train you in IMC, you need a different instructor. Not
initially, of course, because you don't need the pressure of talking to ATC.
But eventually. My goal was 10 hours of IMC before the ride and I had 10.2 IIRC.

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas
"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
46.128...
....
>
> Mitty, During my 20,000+ hours of flying, I have been a Navy
> squadron level Instrument Instructor (P-2V/P-3B), an airline
> Flight/Instrument Instructor for 5 years (B-707/B-727) and have
> been an FAA Flight Instructor, Instrument-Airplane for the past
> 37 years. I don't train in IMC!
>
> During my 70 hours of instrument training during Navy flight
> training (T-28,T-2V,S-2F), not one minute of it was done in
> IMC, and only one long cross country was done under IFR.
>
> The Instructor needs to be in charge of the training flight,
> not ATC.
>
> The first phase of instrument training should consist ONLY of
> basic control of the airplane by reference to instruments, don't
> even turn on the NAV radios until a student can proficiently
> fly the patterns contained in the FAA Instrument Flying Handbook,
> H-8083-15. The older edition has even better patterns.
>
> The next phase consists of VOR radial interception and tracking.
> I don't want to even see an approach chart (IAP)until the student
> has mastered these plus holding.
>
> Do you hold an FAA Flight Instructor, Instrument-Airplane certificate
> and rating to qualify you to make the quoted statement?
>
> And, just who-in-the-hell is "Mitty" anyway? Could be just another
> one of the Flight Simmers as far as we know.
>
> Bob Moore
> ATP B-707, B-727, L-188
> Flight Instructor, Airplane-SE, Instrument-Airplane

Impressive resume Bob; I agree with your premise that the instructor needs
to be in control of the flight training and not ATC. I would also offer for
your consideration that the psychological safety blanket offered by the hood
or the simulator has a tangible impact on the training. The student should
be encouraged to get as much actual time as possible once the fundamentals
have been learned and the polishing phase begins. I think it is a definite
disadvantage if the student only experiences actual IMC until after the ink
is dry on his or her ticket.

If an instructor will not or can not conduct at least the final few hours in
actual conditions (weather permitting) then Mitty has a valid point about
finding another instructor. I think you are both trying to say the same
thing, but you've taken opposite ends of the training time line to use as
your examples.

In a multi-position crewed aircraft like those you mentioned, there is
usually one or more other crew members with actual experience when the new
guy arrives. That luxury doesn't exist in a single-pilot operation making
actual experience even more important.

Jim Carter
Gold Seal CFIAI retired

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Bob Moore wrote:
> Mitty wrote
>> If your instructor won't train you in IMC, you need a different
>> instructor.
>
> Mitty, During my 20,000+ hours of flying, I have been a Navy
> squadron level Instrument Instructor (P-2V/P-3B), an airline
> Flight/Instrument Instructor for 5 years (B-707/B-727) and have
> been an FAA Flight Instructor, Instrument-Airplane for the past
> 37 years. I don't train in IMC!


I've got one tenth of your experience so take my point of view from that: I
think doing some actual with a student shortly before he's cut loose is a
tremendous confidence builder. My instructor did it and I remember how much
easier it seemed compared to under the hood. I'm not really sure why that
was... maybe greater periperal vision. It also was REAL.

Of course, we had a nice stratiform day with 500 foot ceilings. To this day I
still enjoy flying in those conditions. And I've flown every hour without a
crew and most of them without an operating autopilot.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Mitty]

Possibly I phrased my point wrong or shouldn't have used the word "train," as I
think everything you said is reasonable. One of the most valuable portions of
my "training" were flights shooting multiple practice approaches in IMC. This
"training" occurred after I had gotten decent in flying approaches and it added
the reality of IMC and of talking to Approach while in an instructor-monitored
single-pilot IFR situation. I still seek out opportunities to do this when the
ceilings are near-minimum and often fly with my original CFII. It's a great
tune-up.

When I made the comment I was thinking of stories I have heard where
newly-minted instrument pilots have never flown in IMC and are possibly taught
by newly-minted CFIIs who have little or no IMC experience of their own. The
kind of thing Bob Miller rails against at http://overtheairwaves.com/.

Certainly you don't advocate that someone's first IMC/ATC experience be
post-rating and when they are alone.

On 9/10/2007 1:33 PM, Bob Moore wrote the following:
> Mitty wrote
>> If your instructor won't train you in IMC, you need a different
>> instructor.
>
> Mitty, During my 20,000+ hours of flying, I have been a Navy
> squadron level Instrument Instructor (P-2V/P-3B), an airline
> Flight/Instrument Instructor for 5 years (B-707/B-727) and have
> been an FAA Flight Instructor, Instrument-Airplane for the past
> 37 years. I don't train in IMC!
>
> During my 70 hours of instrument training during Navy flight
> training (T-28,T-2V,S-2F), not one minute of it was done in
> IMC, and only one long cross country was done under IFR.
>
> The Instructor needs to be in charge of the training flight,
> not ATC.
>
> The first phase of instrument training should consist ONLY of
> basic control of the airplane by reference to instruments, don't
> even turn on the NAV radios until a student can proficiently
> fly the patterns contained in the FAA Instrument Flying Handbook,
> H-8083-15. The older edition has even better patterns.
>
> The next phase consists of VOR radial interception and tracking.
> I don't want to even see an approach chart (IAP)until the student
> has mastered these plus holding.
>
> Do you hold an FAA Flight Instructor, Instrument-Airplane certificate
> and rating to qualify you to make the quoted statement?
>
> And, just who-in-the-hell is "Mitty" anyway? Could be just another
> one of the Flight Simmers as far as we know.
>
> Bob Moore
> ATP B-707, B-727, L-188
> Flight Instructor, Airplane-SE, Instrument-Airplane

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Bob Moore wrote:
> No whimps allowed to FLY NAVY!


Only the Air Force flies. The Navy aviates. Observe their methods of landing
to see the difference. Naval aircraft NEED that beefed up landing gear.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Hilton]

Dave Butler wrote:
> Read the regulations and interpret them literally.
>
> What you get here will be opinions with no particular authority. If that's
> what you want, here's my opinion:
> If the two pilots agree beforehand that the safety pilot will act as PIC,
> then the safety pilot can log PIC because he IS PIC,

Nope, being PIC is not sufficient for logging PIC time. However, you are
correct that the (PIC) safety pilot can log PIC - see 61.51(e)(iii).


> and the pilot-flying can log PIC because he is the sole manipulator of the
> controls.

....and is rated in that aircraft; e.g. I couldn't log PIC when doing my
multi-engine training.


> More opinion: this is an unnecessary complication. Just fly the hours and
> don't try to be tricky.

Not it's not. These hours can shave off lots of $$$ during training etc.
However, and this is a warning to all those reading, read the appropriate
insurance documentation to ensure that the safety pilot can be PIC and be in
the right seat (if that is where they would be sitting). For example, is
the safety pilot a member of the club? Is he/she current? Does he/she have
a medical? etc etc All these issue might void the coverage during that
flight so I would encourage all to do your homework on this point; i.e. get
a photocopy of the insurance doc, don't believe what the FBO folks tell you.


>> 4) During training (with the instructor), how much flying, if any, is
>> performed in actual IMC? I ask because I would like to fly early in
>> the morning, and on most days, OAK is 1000' overcast until after 9am.
>
> That depends on your instructor, and how much confidence he has in you
> keeping the shiny side up.

I have to disagree with Bob here (see Bob's post in this thread). I believe
that training in IMC is vital. If the instructor wants to put all the IMC
right at the very end once the student is proficient, then fine, but I
believe it is a huge advantage to be in a cloud before passing the checkride
and doing this stuff without a CFI-I next to you. There is just no way that
being under the hood is anywhere as realistic as the real thing.

BTW: MRY often has some good IMC, you can even ask them to vector you around
and fly in that stuff all day. The approaches into MRY, SNS, and WVI are
often around 300-800 or so; I once went missed at SNS after descending VFR
and having the cloud bank below me.

Hilton

[Kevin Clarke]

SimGuy wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> After gaining by ticket in 1993 at KOAK my logbook was moth-balled and
> I haven't flown again until last month. After regaining currency I
> would like to try and ascend through the tiers and maybe, one day,
> hold a Commercial License with Instrument rating. I currently have 85
> hours logged as PIC, of which 10 are solo x-country.
>
> Now to my questions:
>
> 1) My motivation may be a little unrealistic, in an ideal world I
> would like to switch careers and become a professional pilot, however,
> at 40 I'm probably too old. The airlines probably wouldn't be
> interested, but could I do something else?
>
>
>
There is an article in this month's AOPA flight training mag about a
career post 40.

KC

[Mitty]

On 9/10/2007 7:16 PM, Bill Zaleski wrote the following:
> Taking
> instrument training from an instructor who does not go into cloud is
> like taking sex education from a virgin.

ROFL. That's more or less what I was trying to say. I never suspected I'd get
shot up for it.

[SimGuy]

On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 20:16:34 -0400, Bill Zaleski
> wrote:

>Taking
>instrument training from an instructor who does not go into cloud is
>like taking sex education from a virgin.

I attended a catholic school In England. Sex Ed was part of the the
3rd year Biology class. My Biology teacher was a nun.

Been there done that.

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
>
>
> I've got one tenth of your experience so take my point of view from that: I
> think doing some actual with a student shortly before he's cut loose is a
> tremendous confidence builder.

With all due respect to Bob's accomplishments...

So do I.

Most of my training was in VMC, with the instructor able to change plans
at will. We requested and got clearance to fly holds in the clouds
(with a tinge of ice!), and flew some of the cross country time in IMC,
one from minimums to minimums.

The hood also doesn't provide the effects of busting in and out of the
clouds.

[Dave Butler]

SimGuy wrote:

> I attended a catholic school In England. Sex Ed was part of the the
> 3rd year Biology class. My Biology teacher was a nun.

Just don't get in the habit.

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
46.128...
....
>
> That's the way that the single engine jet-jocks did it in
> advanced training at NAS Kingsville. Right out of the two
> seat F9F into the single seat F8U and A4D. Of course, they
> had proper training.
>
....
>
> Bob Moore

Bob,

Come on; you surely don't advocate antiquated training methods today
just because that's the way it was done 50 years ago do you? I knew Navy
pilots were slow learners, but even I thought they were better than this.


--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas

[Michael[_1_]]

> Mitty wrote
> > If your instructor won't train you in IMC, you need a different
> > instructor.

Of course. Don't let people tell you otherwise.

On Sep 10, 1:33 pm, Bob Moore > wrote:
> Mitty, During my 20,000+ hours of flying, I have been a Navy
> squadron level Instrument Instructor (P-2V/P-3B), an airline
> Flight/Instrument Instructor for 5 years (B-707/B-727) and have
> been an FAA Flight Instructor, Instrument-Airplane for the past
> 37 years. I don't train in IMC!

First, I don't know what kind of instructor you were at the airlines,
but every airline instructor I know (and I know several) who actually
teaches in the airplane (and not just in the sim) teaches in IMC. The
ones who teach in the sim use it to simulate IMC. How you got by
teaching VMC only in the 707/727 I don't know, but it's not done that
way anymore.

Second, and we've gone through this before, you are conveniently
ignoring the fact that while the military instrument rating is all
VMC, it is also a limited instrument rating. It does not allow the
newly minted military instrument pilot to self-dispatch into weather
the way the civilian instrument rating does. Self-dispatch authority
comes only with the (advanced, command - the terms vary with time and
service branch) instrument rating - and it requires IMC experience.

So I really hope you don't teach GA instrument pilots - because the GA
instrument pilot really needs to get supervised IMC experience before
the rating, as there will be no support system for him to get it
after, as there is in the military and airlines.

> The Instructor needs to be in charge of the training flight,
> not ATC.

The capable instrument instructor has no problem staying in charge of
the flight, VFR or IFR. Working with ATC to get what you need while
working within the system is part of the job. If you can't do that,
you have either an ego problem or a skill problem.

> The first phase of instrument training should consist ONLY of
> basic control of the airplane by reference to instruments, don't
> even turn on the NAV radios until a student can proficiently
> fly the patterns contained in the FAA Instrument Flying Handbook,
> H-8083-15. The older edition has even better patterns.

Different people take different amounts of time to learn the control
skills required for pattern A and pattern B. Some people can do it in
under five hours. Some of those who have played flight sim can do it
in less than one. In my experience, the people who need the most time
to learn to control the plane solely by reference to instruments are
the natural stick-and-rudder guys. Maybe that's why the military
calls for 60 (or is it 70) hours for the instrument. I felt 40 was
way more than I needed, and had to burn off time with a safety pilot.

> The next phase consists of VOR radial interception and tracking.
> I don't want to even see an approach chart (IAP)until the student
> has mastered these plus holding.

Once again - some are quick, some are slow. And in any case, holding
in IMC is VERY easy to get if you know how to work with ATC. Done it
many times so my students could hold in actual. Who knows when
they'll get to do it again...

> Do you hold an FAA Flight Instructor, Instrument-Airplane certificate
> and rating to qualify you to make the quoted statement?

Since when is a piece of plastic a prerequisite for an informed
opinion?

In any case - I do hold a CFI - airplane single and multi, instrument
airplane, and glider. Also an ATP. And I agree with him. So does
every other instructor with an ATP that I know. You're the lone
exception.

Michael

[Bob Gardner]

Been out of town, so I'm late with this...right on, Bob!!!

Bob Gardner

"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
46.128...
> Mitty wrote
>> If your instructor won't train you in IMC, you need a different
>> instructor.
>
> Mitty, During my 20,000+ hours of flying, I have been a Navy
> squadron level Instrument Instructor (P-2V/P-3B), an airline
> Flight/Instrument Instructor for 5 years (B-707/B-727) and have
> been an FAA Flight Instructor, Instrument-Airplane for the past
> 37 years. I don't train in IMC!
>
> During my 70 hours of instrument training during Navy flight
> training (T-28,T-2V,S-2F), not one minute of it was done in
> IMC, and only one long cross country was done under IFR.
>
> The Instructor needs to be in charge of the training flight,
> not ATC.
>
> The first phase of instrument training should consist ONLY of
> basic control of the airplane by reference to instruments, don't
> even turn on the NAV radios until a student can proficiently
> fly the patterns contained in the FAA Instrument Flying Handbook,
> H-8083-15. The older edition has even better patterns.
>
> The next phase consists of VOR radial interception and tracking.
> I don't want to even see an approach chart (IAP)until the student
> has mastered these plus holding.
>
> Do you hold an FAA Flight Instructor, Instrument-Airplane certificate
> and rating to qualify you to make the quoted statement?
>
> And, just who-in-the-hell is "Mitty" anyway? Could be just another
> one of the Flight Simmers as far as we know.
>
> Bob Moore
> ATP B-707, B-727, L-188
> Flight Instructor, Airplane-SE, Instrument-Airplane