Red Baron vs. Rickenbacker?

[Gregorso]

Did the Red Baron ever engage in battle with Eddie Rickenbacker? I
have seen conflicting stories on various websites. Some say
Rickenbacker shot the Baron down, ... some say the Baron died before
Rickenbacker saw action.

Also, is it true that Rickenbacker's parents (or one of them) were
German?

Thanks,
Greg

[vincent p. norris]

>Did the Red Baron ever engage in battle with Eddie Rickenbacker?

When I was a kid, I read Fighting the Flying Circus, by Eddie
Rickenbacker. I can't recall any of the details, but you might try
reading it. You'll enjoy it.
>
>Also, is it true that Rickenbacker's parents (or one of them) were
>German?

Swiss, I believe he said.

vince norris

[Ed Rasimus]

On 8 Oct 2003 15:12:46 -0700, (Gregorso) wrote:

>Did the Red Baron ever engage in battle with Eddie Rickenbacker? I
>have seen conflicting stories on various websites. Some say
>Rickenbacker shot the Baron down, ... some say the Baron died before
>Rickenbacker saw action.

Never heard it suggested that Rickenbacker shot the Baron down. The
debate has been mostly whether the Canadian, Brown shot him down or
whether he was plinked by artillery.

An historian at the AFA gave an excellent presentation to a Daedalian
lunch I attended a couple of years ago describing his research for a
book which concluded that the artillery explanation was highly likely.

[Ed Majden]

"Gregorso"
> Did the Red Baron ever engage in battle with Eddie Rickenbacker? I
> have seen conflicting stories on various websites. Some say
> Rickenbacker shot the Baron down, ... some say the Baron died before
> Rickenbacker saw action.
>
There is quite a controversy as to who brought down Manfred von
Richthofen, the Red Baron. Canadian pilot Arthur Roy Brown is generally
given credit for bringing him down on April 21,1918 over allied territory.
Further investigation points to Australian machine gun ground fire. Both
aircraft and land based machine guns used 303 ammunition and he was hit by
this type of bullet. Apparently he lived long enough to land the aircraft.
There was a special program on NOVA about this controversy. I guess no one
will ever know for sure. It definitely was not Rickenbacker that brought
him down. I don't know if the Americans ever tangled with the Red Barons so
called Flying Circus group commanded by Richthofen.

Ed Majden

[JDupre5762]

>It definitely was not Rickenbacker that brought
>him down. I don't know if the Americans ever tangled with the Red Barons so
>called Flying Circus group commanded by Richthofen.

I recall that Rickenbacker once tangled with a German aircraft that was painted
largely in red and he attributed the aircraft to von Richthofen's unit. This
was the signature color of von Richthofen's unit though only his personal
aircraft was ever painted in over all red. It is unlikely that Rickenbacker
fought von Richthofen but he might have fought one of the other von
Richthofen's or someone else in that unit.

John Dupre'

[Juvat]

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Ed Majden
blurted out:


> There is quite a controversy as to who brought down Manfred von
>Richthofen, the Red Baron. Canadian pilot Arthur Roy Brown is generally
>given credit for bringing him down on April 21,1918 over allied territory.
>Further investigation points to Australian machine gun ground fire.

Norman Franks wrote a fairly detailed explanation. I don't think he
has much doubt, except that there's no way Brown could have fired the
bullet that killed MvR.

And the Final Jeopardy answer is "Popkin"

Juvat

[Ed Majden]

"Juvat" wrote:
> Norman Franks wrote a fairly detailed explanation. I don't think he
> has much doubt, except that there's no way Brown could have fired the
> bullet that killed MvR.
>
Does it really matter who brought the Red Baron down? It's more of a
case of being at the right place at the wrong time! The NOVA program
brought out the fact that Richthofen broke his own rules following a single
aircraft back across enemy lines and not concentrating on what was going on
around him. Whether the bullet was from Popkin's machine gun or Brown's is
of little consequence. He is dead in either case.
Ed

[Gordon]

> Does it really matter who brought the Red Baron down?

It mattered to Popkin and Brown. The controversy was rather heated back then,
because many felt that no pilot was good enough to kill MvR - while Allied
pilots felt that no denizen of the mud could have possibly done it. The wounds
show upward travel, which mades the mystery somewhat less mysterious...

G

[Gregorso]

I heard once that Rickenbacker was really of German descent, although
he said at the time that his father was Swiss, because he was probably
ashamed of his heritage.
This is pretty ironic, if true. Does anyone have more recent
documentation on this?

[Cub Driver]

>Also, is it true that Rickenbacker's parents (or one of them) were
>German?

Rickenbaker was a fascinating case. A 7th-grade dropout from the
sticks, he had to make his way in a group dominated by Yalies, and
this at a time when class was much more important in the U.S. than any
of us remember.

His father was a construction worker; he started out in life as a
teen-aged automobile mechanic, and by 1916 was an auto-racing
superstar. At 25 he was regarded as too old to become a pilot, so he
enlisted in the army and became a chauffeur on Pershing's staff.

You'll have to ask somebody else about his parentage, but the spelling
of his name suggests that his father wasn't an immigrant. More likely
it was a couple generations back.

(During World War II, we used to hear the same thing about Eisenhower.
The Germans, meanwhile, wondered if he wasn't a Jew.)


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

>This is pretty ironic, if true.

Why is it ironic? Thousands--probably hundreds of thousands--of
Americans have fought against their own or their parents' homelands.
They included William Patrick Hitler, who served in the U.S. Navy in
WWII.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[George Z. Bush]

That's right and, as an added example, Eisenhower isn't an Irish name, either.
(^-^)))

George Z..


"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> >This is pretty ironic, if true.
>
> Why is it ironic? Thousands--probably hundreds of thousands--of
> Americans have fought against their own or their parents' homelands.
> They included William Patrick Hitler, who served in the U.S. Navy in
> WWII.
>
> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9
>
> see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
> and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[George Z. Bush]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> >Also, is it true that Rickenbacker's parents (or one of them) were
> >German?
>
> Rickenbaker was a fascinating case. A 7th-grade dropout from the
> sticks, he had to make his way in a group dominated by Yalies, and
> this at a time when class was much more important in the U.S. than any
> of us remember.
>
> His father was a construction worker; he started out in life as a
> teen-aged automobile mechanic, and by 1916 was an auto-racing
> superstar. At 25 he was regarded as too old to become a pilot, so he
> enlisted in the army and became a chauffeur on Pershing's staff.
>
> You'll have to ask somebody else about his parentage, but the spelling
> of his name suggests that his father wasn't an immigrant. More likely
> it was a couple generations back.
>
> (During World War II, we used to hear the same thing about Eisenhower.
> The Germans, meanwhile, wondered if he wasn't a Jew.)

The Germans may have wondered if they wanted to, but I never confused his name
with names like Levy, Garfinkle or Goldberg. AAMOF, I vaguely recall some
discussions along the same lines about Josef Goebbels.

George Z.
>
>
> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9
>
> see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
> and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Gregorso]

> Why is it ironic? Thousands--probably hundreds of thousands--of
> Americans have fought against their own or their parents' homelands.

Quite true. Still, I'm curious.

[Ed Majden]

"Gordon" wrote>
> It mattered to Popkin and Brown. The controversy was rather heated back
then,
> because many felt that no pilot was good enough to kill MvR - while Allied
> pilots felt that no denizen of the mud could have possibly done it. The
wounds
> show upward travel, which mades the mystery somewhat less mysterious...
>
MvR was undoubtedly an excellent pilot. In this case he didn't follow
his own advice by going after Captain Wop May entering into hostile
territory. Wop May was on his first combat mission and was desperately
trying to escape from the Red Baron. I might add he did this successfully
when MvR was brought down by ground or air fire. Wop May returned to Canada
after the War contributing much to the development of aviation in Canada.
If you want to read about his exploits do a search with google for "Wop
May".

[Marc Reeve]

Cub Driver > wrote:
> Gregorso > wrote:
> >Also, is it true that Rickenbacker's parents (or one of them) were
> >German?
>
>
> You'll have to ask somebody else about his parentage, but the spelling
> of his name suggests that his father wasn't an immigrant. More likely
> it was a couple generations back.
>
He changed the spelling of his name when he joined the Army. It was
originally Rickenbacher.

Various websites indicate that he was, in fact, Swiss-German by descent,
and that his father, at least, was an immigrant. (Possibly his mother as
well, but that is unclear.)

(And possibly a distant relative through my paternal grandmother - I'll
have to re-check that with my uncle Jim, who does all the family
genealogy stuff.)

-Marc
--
Marc Reeve
actual email address after removal of 4s & spaces is
c4m4r4a4m4a4n a4t c4r4u4z4i4o d4o4t c4o4m

[Guy Alcala]

Cub Driver wrote:

> >This is pretty ironic, if true.
>
> Why is it ironic? Thousands--probably hundreds of thousands--of
> Americans have fought against their own or their parents' homelands.
> They included William Patrick Hitler, who served in the U.S. Navy in
> WWII.

Reminds me of an incident described in Hub(ert) Zemke's (auto) biography
"Zemke's Wolfpack." The 56th was moving into a new base (I can't
remember if it was Horsham St. Faith, Halesworth, or Boxted), and taking
it over from the RAF. 5 or 6 56th pilots including Zemke had flown in,
and Zemke introduced them to the RAF officer waiting to turn the base
over. Along with Zemke, Schilling and Goodfleisch the others were also
of German ancestry, and the RAF officer joked that he felt like he was
turning the base over to the Luftwaffe ;-).

ISTR reading in one of Roger Freeman's books on the 8th AF that Zemke
had an uncle killed in the German military in World War 1, and a couple
of cousins in the Wehrmacht were killed on the Eastern Front in World
War 2 while he was flying in the ETO.

Guy

[vincent p. norris]

> Thousands--probably hundreds of thousands--of
>Americans have fought against their own or their parents' homelands.
>They included William Patrick Hitler, who served in the U.S. Navy in
>WWII.

Dan, I recall reading many years ago that Adolph Hitler's real name
was Alois Schickelgruber.

Do you know if that's true?

I gather it's well established that Josef Stalin's real name was
Visarionovich Dzugashvili (although probably NOT spelled that way).

He adopted "Stalin" because it means "steel." Did Hitler choose
"Hitler" for some similar reason?

vince norris

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
vincent p. norris > wrote:

> > Thousands--probably hundreds of thousands--of
> >Americans have fought against their own or their parents' homelands.
> >They included William Patrick Hitler, who served in the U.S. Navy in
> >WWII.
>
> Dan, I recall reading many years ago that Adolph Hitler's real name
> was Alois Schickelgruber.
>
> Do you know if that's true?

IIRC, Alois was his father. His given name was Adolph Schicklegruber,
he later changed it to Hitler, his mother's maiden name.

> I gather it's well established that Josef Stalin's real name was
> Visarionovich Dzugashvili (although probably NOT spelled that way).
>
> He adopted "Stalin" because it means "steel." Did Hitler choose
> "Hitler" for some similar reason?

Mostly because it sounded better. ("Heil Schikelgruber!" just doesn't
have the zing, does it?) IIRC, Spike Mulligan had a lot of fun playing
with the name, though that might have been Spike Jones.

[Keith Willshaw]

"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
...
> > Thousands--probably hundreds of thousands--of
> >Americans have fought against their own or their parents' homelands.
> >They included William Patrick Hitler, who served in the U.S. Navy in
> >WWII.
>
> Dan, I recall reading many years ago that Adolph Hitler's real name
> was Alois Schickelgruber.
>
> Do you know if that's true?
>

Its untrue, that story was spread by black propaganda units
in WW2

> I gather it's well established that Josef Stalin's real name was
> Visarionovich Dzugashvili (although probably NOT spelled that way).
>
> He adopted "Stalin" because it means "steel." Did Hitler choose
> "Hitler" for some similar reason?
>

No his parents were Alois and Klara Hitler, his nephew,
William Patrick Hitler was a US citizen and served in the
USN during WW2

Keith

[Keith Willshaw]

"Steve Hix" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> vincent p. norris > wrote:
>
> > > Thousands--probably hundreds of thousands--of
> > >Americans have fought against their own or their parents' homelands.
> > >They included William Patrick Hitler, who served in the U.S. Navy in
> > >WWII.
> >
> > Dan, I recall reading many years ago that Adolph Hitler's real name
> > was Alois Schickelgruber.
> >
> > Do you know if that's true?
>
> IIRC, Alois was his father. His given name was Adolph Schicklegruber,
> he later changed it to Hitler, his mother's maiden name.
>

His father was illegitimate and carried the name Schicklegruber
until 1876 when he had established his claim to the surname Hitler.
Adolf was born in 1889 and never used any other name than Hitler.

Keith

[Cub Driver]

>Dan, I recall reading many years ago that Adolph Hitler's real name
>was Alois Schickelgruber.

We all believed that at the time!

Hitler's father was born Alois Schikelgruber, his mother being
unmarried. A gent named Hitler (perhaps his biological father?)
adopted Alois and gave him his name.

So Adolf was born a Hitler. Imagine how different the 20th century
might have been, had he been a Shickelgruber!

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Gregorso]

Thanks for the interesting facts, but what I'm really looking for now
is a legitimate reference source that says where Rickenbacker's
parents were from. (Specifically if it provides an alternative story
to his dad being Swiss.)

Failing that, does anyone know of an e-mail address for one of
Rickenbacker's biographers?

Thanks,
Greg

[Kimmo Mikkonen]

There is some speculation on Hitler's name(dunno if still going on), that it
was actually Alois Hiedler, but was written, because of some misstyping etc,
it was written closer to the pronunciation in Austrian, Hitler.
Then again if I had to choose between Chanting Hitler, Hiedler or
Schicklegruber....Well for some weird reason id prefer the first two...;)

[Mike Marron]

>Cub Driver > wrote:

>So Adolf was born a Hitler. Imagine how different the 20th century
>might have been, had he been a Shickelgruber!

Yeah just imagine; instead of Volkswagens....FAHRVERGNUGENS!

[George Z. Bush]

"Steve Hix" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> vincent p. norris > wrote:
>
> > > Thousands--probably hundreds of thousands--of
> > >Americans have fought against their own or their parents' homelands.
> > >They included William Patrick Hitler, who served in the U.S. Navy in
> > >WWII.
> >
> > Dan, I recall reading many years ago that Adolph Hitler's real name
> > was Alois Schickelgruber.
> >
> > Do you know if that's true?
>
> IIRC, Alois was his father. His given name was Adolph Schicklegruber,
> he later changed it to Hitler, his mother's maiden name.
>
> > I gather it's well established that Josef Stalin's real name was
> > Visarionovich Dzugashvili (although probably NOT spelled that way).
> >
> > He adopted "Stalin" because it means "steel." Did Hitler choose
> > "Hitler" for some similar reason?
>
> Mostly because it sounded better. ("Heil Schikelgruber!" just doesn't
> have the zing, does it?) IIRC, Spike Mulligan had a lot of fun playing
> with the name, though that might have been Spike Jones.

It was Spike Jones, and I think the name of the piece was something like "Right
in the Fuhrer's Face", although that might just be a line in the song.

George Z.

[Gordon]

>
>He adopted "Stalin" because it means "steel."

Man of steel. Luckily, 'Reagan' means "kryptonite".

[vincent p. norris]

>It was Spike Jones, and I think the name of the piece was something like "Right
>in the Fuhrer's Face", although that might just be a line in the song.

Yes, I have that record, with unforgettable lines like--

Not to Love der Fuhrer is a great disgrace,
So ve Heil! Heil! right in der Fuhrer's face!

With appropriate Bronx-cheer type sound effects from the band.

vince norris

[Marc Reeve]

Gordon > wrote:

> >
> >He adopted "Stalin" because it means "steel."
>
> Man of steel. Luckily, 'Reagan' means "kryptonite".

*snicker*

Yeah, Stalin & Molotov = "The Steel" & "The Hammer".

What a pair.

-Marc
--
Marc Reeve
actual email address after removal of 4s & spaces is
c4m4r4a4m4a4n a4t c4r4u4z4i4o d4o4t c4o4m