Syrian and Iranian AF 2003 [Archive]

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Kenneth Williams

October 9th 03, 05:53 AM

Excuse me please, but what frontline aircraft and weapons do each of
these nations possess in the event of another Arab-Israeli war? Do
either of them have anything remotely as good as the Israelis?

I know Syria has a bunch of different MiGs and Iran has a mix of MiGs
and left-over F-4s and Tomcats, but have they made any new purchases
or upgraded their a/c?

Israel seems guaranteed of success with all the US-supplied a/c and
combat experience/training.

Kenneth Williams

Tom Cooper

October 9th 03, 08:49 AM

Kenneth,
the mainstay of the SyAAF interceptor units are something like 42 MiG-29s of
two or three main versions (the "export" 9.12, two-seaters, and possibly
some SMTs, but the last is far from being sure), then some 60 MiG-23MF/MF &
MLs, all of which should have been standardised to a version locally called
MiG-23S, and then some 40 MiG-21bis, armed with R-73s.

The condition of MiG-25s is unclear: the recce versions appear to be very
active; reports about the interceptor versions are relatively scarce (last
I've hard about them being scrambled was two years back).

For air-to-ground, they have some 22 Su-24MKs and one or two Su-24MRs (the
last came from Libya, together with two Su-24MKs: for more details see the
article "The King of Middle Eastern Swing-Sings", which is to appear in
International Air Power Review, volume 8 or 9), then something like 30
MiG-23BNs, and a similar number of Su-20M and Su-22M-3/4Ks (all of which are
in a pretty bad shape). There is also a pretty sizeable number of older
MiG-21bis/MF and other airframes, but quite a few of these were rebuilt into
recce fighters (note that I'm talking about active airframes: except the
MiG-29s, Su-24s, and - theoretically - MiG-25s - 50% of the remaining assets
are either in storage, or grounded).

The Syrians have also a small naval air arm, equipped with Ka-25
helicopters, and permanently attached interceptor squadron (usually equipped
with MiG-23s or MiG-21s) from the SyAAF.

The IRIAF has no true "mix" of MiGs and "left-over" US fighters. At least
not yet - and despite all the reports so far. The IRIAF remains mainly armed
with US-built fighters, to which a relatively small number of Soviet/Russian
fighters was added in 1990/91, and now some domestic designs are added too.
The IRIAF is very unhappy with its original (and few ex-Iraqi) MiG-29s, and
these are meanwhile considered a second-line asset, together with remaining
F-5s. In order to increase the capabilities of MiG-29s earlier this year a
team of Indian technicians was called in. So, that the mainstay of their
interceptor fleet remains the F-14A, supported by ex-Iraqi Mirage F.1s.
These might be reinforced by a number of fighters purchased from a specific
country earlier this summer, but there is no confirmation for this yet so
I'll not go into any details.

They have, nevertheless, a very capable fighter-bomber component: the Su-24
are now operational with two oversized squadrons and their as well as
F-14-crews are continuously getting a lot of intensive and very realistic
training, and were meanwhile noticed in "out of area" operations too. The
most numerous type in service, however, remains the F-4Ds and F-4Es, which
have a locally-modified avionics and several completely new weapons systems
(some of these with a considerable stand-off range). Finally, there is of
course the F-5A/B/E/F/Azarakhsh family, which is now slowly increasing due
to domestic production.

Iran has also a sizeable tanker fleet (Boeing 707-2J9Cs and Boeing
747-2J9C), and by far the largest transport fleet in the area (Boeing 747Fs,
C-130s, and Il-76s), as well as two exIraqi Adnan-1/2s AEW aircraft. the
IR.AN-140 are meanwhile in production too, and might be developed in several
different variants for the IRIAF and the IRGC. The last, the IRGC, now
("also" and "finally" - after so many years trying) operates a small air arm
(usually designated IRGCAF), equipped with An-70s, Y-12s, seven Su-25Ks, and
approx three dozens of Mi-8, AH-1, Bell 214C and Bell 206 helicopters.

One should not forget to mention the IRIAA - the Islamic Republic of Iranian
Army Aviation - that remains the hugest such arm in the whole Middle East,
having a fleet of over 400 AH-1Js (including some new, domestically built
examples), Bell 214A/C (also including an increasing number of domestically
built examples), Bell 206s, and CH-47Cs.

Finally, the IRINA - Naval Aviation - operates some 30 AS-61/SH-3Ds,
AB.212s, and RH-53s.

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/title_detail.php/title=S6585

William Wright

October 9th 03, 04:05 PM

"Tom Cooper" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> Iran has also a sizeable tanker fleet (Boeing 707-2J9Cs and Boeing
> 747-2J9C), and by far the largest transport fleet in the area (Boeing
747Fs,
<snip>
Boeing converted three 747s to tankers but they were converted from
ex-Eastern, ex-TWA 747-131s. Pictures of 5-8105 and 5-8103 can be found on
the web. It appears that both of these aircraft currently have civil
registrations and are operated by Saha Air Cargo. I don't the about the
third one for sure. It was probably 5-8104 which crashed in Spain or 5-8107.
The for 747-200Fs are 747-2J9. All four have civil registrations, three
being operated by Saha Air Cargo and one is parked.

Tom Cooper

October 10th 03, 12:13 AM

"William Wright" > wrote in message
news:kPehb.721214$uu5.119765@sccrnsc04...
>
> "Tom Cooper" > wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
> > Iran has also a sizeable tanker fleet (Boeing 707-2J9Cs and Boeing
> > 747-2J9C), and by far the largest transport fleet in the area (Boeing
> 747Fs,
> <snip>
> Boeing converted three 747s to tankers but they were converted from
> ex-Eastern, ex-TWA 747-131s. Pictures of 5-8105 and 5-8103 can be found on
> the web. It appears that both of these aircraft currently have civil
> registrations and are operated by Saha Air Cargo. I don't the about the
> third one for sure. It was probably 5-8104 which crashed in Spain or
5-8107.
> The for 747-200Fs are 747-2J9. All four have civil registrations, three
> being operated by Saha Air Cargo and one is parked.

See the page 294 of "Iran - Iraq War in the Air":
- the example that crashed near Madrid, in 1976, was 5-283; that one has
never got five-digit serial, introduced with the arrival of the first F-14s
in Iran, in January of the same year;

- other examples rebuilt into -2J9C or delivered in the -2J9F (these were
tankers too) configuration were: 5-8103, 5-8105, 5-8107, 5-8113, (probably)
5-8114, and 5-8115. The whereabouts of the last two are unknown to me; the
5-8113, for example, has spent most of its career with the Saha - and this
did not prevent it from acting as a tanker and a flying command post for the
"H-3 Blitz" operation...

Don't forget that the main customer of the Saha Air is - and always was -
the IRIAS (i.e. all the three branches of the military): after all, that was
also the background on which this company was founded.

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/title_detail.php/title=S6585

robert arndt

October 10th 03, 03:56 PM

(Kenneth Williams) wrote in message >...
> Excuse me please, but what frontline aircraft and weapons do each of
> these nations possess in the event of another Arab-Israeli war? Do
> either of them have anything remotely as good as the Israelis?
>
> I know Syria has a bunch of different MiGs and Iran has a mix of MiGs
> and left-over F-4s and Tomcats, but have they made any new purchases
> or upgraded their a/c?
>
> Israel seems guaranteed of success with all the US-supplied a/c and
> combat experience/training.
>
> Kenneth Williams

Ken,

From "The Int. Directory of Military Aircraft 2002/2003" the AF
fighter/strike inventory for all 3 nations is as follows:

Iran:

AF: 40 F-4D/E
6 RF-4E
20 F-14A
40 MiG-29
30 SU-24MK
44 SU-20/22
45 F-5E/F
18 F-7
18 F-6
19 MIRAGE F1

Israel:

40 F-4E
53 F-4E 2000
12 RF-4E
?? F-4 ALL VARIANTS (IN STORAGE)
25 F-15I*
44 F-15 A/B
27 F-15 C/D
102 F-16I*
104 F-16 A/B
125 F-16 C/D
50 KFIR C-7/TC7 (PLUS STORAGE UNITS)
105 A-4N (PLUS STORAGE UNITS)

Syria:

14 SU-27
60 MiG-29/UB
40 MiG-25/PD/RB/PU
80 MiG-23/MF/ML/MS
66 MiG-23/BN/UM
220 MiG-21
30 MiG-17F
20 SU-24MK
96 SU-20/22/BKL
70 L-39
40 L-29
15 MiG-15/UTI

Rob

William Wright

October 10th 03, 06:23 PM

"Tom Cooper" > wrote in message
...
>
> "William Wright" > wrote in message
> news:kPehb.721214$uu5.119765@sccrnsc04...
> >
> > "Tom Cooper" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > <snip>
> > > Iran has also a sizeable tanker fleet (Boeing 707-2J9Cs and Boeing
> > > 747-2J9C), and by far the largest transport fleet in the area (Boeing
> > 747Fs,
> > <snip>
> > Boeing converted three 747s to tankers but they were converted from
> > ex-Eastern, ex-TWA 747-131s. Pictures of 5-8105 and 5-8103 can be found
on
> > the web. It appears that both of these aircraft currently have civil
> > registrations and are operated by Saha Air Cargo. I don't the about the
> > third one for sure. It was probably 5-8104 which crashed in Spain or
> 5-8107.
> > The for 747-200Fs are 747-2J9. All four have civil registrations, three
> > being operated by Saha Air Cargo and one is parked.
>
> See the page 294 of "Iran - Iraq War in the Air":
> - the example that crashed near Madrid, in 1976, was 5-283; that one has
> never got five-digit serial, introduced with the arrival of the first
F-14s
> in Iran, in January of the same year;

Yes 5-283 was lost before receiving 5-8104 as a serial. A bit of notational
laziness on my part. 5-280 thru 5-287 reserialed as 5-8101 thru 5-8108
except for 5-283.

> - other examples rebuilt into -2J9C or delivered in the -2J9F (these were
> tankers too) configuration were: 5-8103, 5-8105, 5-8107, 5-8113,
(probably)

If the 747-2J9F frieghters were converted to tankers it must have been post
delivery. I have not seen any pictures of them. The only ones I have ever
seen are 747-131s converted to 747-100F and in the pictures they are clearly
model 100s.

> 5-8114, and 5-8115. The whereabouts of the last two are unknown to me; the
> 5-8113, for example, has spent most of its career with the Saha - and this
> did not prevent it from acting as a tanker and a flying command post for
the
> "H-3 Blitz" operation...

5-8114 and 5-8115 were last EP-SHA and EP-SHH. I don't understand what you
mean by 5-5113 though. It only spent a year as Iran Air EP-NHN in the 1980s
until finally becoming Saha EP-SHB in1991. Or are you saying that Saha
operated the aircraft with a military serial number?

>
> Don't forget that the main customer of the Saha Air is - and always was -
> the IRIAS (i.e. all the three branches of the military): after all, that
was
> also the background on which this company was founded.
>
> Tom Cooper
> Co-Author:
> Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
> http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
> and,
> Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
> http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/title_detail.php/title=S6585
>
>

October 10th 03, 08:57 PM

"robert arndt" > wrote in message
om...
> (Kenneth Williams) wrote in message
>...
> > Excuse me please, but what frontline aircraft and weapons do each of
> > these nations possess in the event of another Arab-Israeli war? Do
> > either of them have anything remotely as good as the Israelis?
> >
> > I know Syria has a bunch of different MiGs and Iran has a mix of MiGs
> > and left-over F-4s and Tomcats, but have they made any new purchases
> > or upgraded their a/c?
> >
> > Israel seems guaranteed of success with all the US-supplied a/c and
> > combat experience/training.
> >
> > Kenneth Williams
>
> Ken,
>
> From "The Int. Directory of Military Aircraft 2002/2003" the AF
> fighter/strike inventory for all 3 nations is as follows:
>
> Iran:
>
> AF: 40 F-4D/E
> 6 RF-4E
> 20 F-14A
> 40 MiG-29
> 30 SU-24MK
> 44 SU-20/22
> 45 F-5E/F
> 18 F-7
> 18 F-6
> 19 MIRAGE F1
>
> Israel:
>
> 40 F-4E
> 53 F-4E 2000
> 12 RF-4E
> ?? F-4 ALL VARIANTS (IN STORAGE)
> 25 F-15I*
> 44 F-15 A/B
> 27 F-15 C/D
> 102 F-16I*
> 104 F-16 A/B
> 125 F-16 C/D
> 50 KFIR C-7/TC7 (PLUS STORAGE UNITS)
> 105 A-4N (PLUS STORAGE UNITS)
>
> Syria:
>
> 14 SU-27
> 60 MiG-29/UB
> 40 MiG-25/PD/RB/PU
> 80 MiG-23/MF/ML/MS
> 66 MiG-23/BN/UM
> 220 MiG-21
> 30 MiG-17F
> 20 SU-24MK
> 96 SU-20/22/BKL
> 70 L-39
> 40 L-29
> 15 MiG-15/UTI
>
> Rob

Not very accurate Rob. Missed out the Iranian Su-25s. Syria has no Su-27s of
any variant. Like Algeria the Syrians had visiting Flankers purely for sales
and evaluation purposes.

TJ

Tom Cooper

October 11th 03, 12:12 AM

William,
> If the 747-2J9F frieghters were converted to tankers it must have been
post
> delivery. I have not seen any pictures of them. The only ones I have ever
> seen are 747-131s converted to 747-100F and in the pictures they are
clearly
> model 100s.

I'm not that good in finding out what is the 100F or what is the 131: I can
rather help you with an inventory of what I've seen on the photos, if that
would help.

> > 5-8114, and 5-8115. The whereabouts of the last two are unknown to me;
the
> > 5-8113, for example, has spent most of its career with the Saha - and
this
> > did not prevent it from acting as a tanker and a flying command post for
> the
> > "H-3 Blitz" operation...
>
> 5-8114 and 5-8115 were last EP-SHA and EP-SHH. I don't understand what you
> mean by 5-5113 though. It only spent a year as Iran Air EP-NHN in the
1980s
> until finally becoming Saha EP-SHB in1991. Or are you saying that Saha
> operated the aircraft with a military serial number?

For 5-8114 there is a photo showing it with the boom, sometimes in the 1970s
or so, and one without, at a much later date, but also without any markings
but fin flash. Almost the same can be seen for the 5-8115: there is a photo
showing it with the boom, and one showing it from the front, without any
markings but the fin flash.

Re. 5-8113: I don't know if the Saha was flying aircraft with military
serial numbers. To be honest: I never cared to find out. What I know is that
the plane was used for supporting specific combat missions, one of which was
the "H-3 Blitz".

Now, if that could ease the dillema, consider that there was a number of
occassions on which the Iranians (mis)used the Turkish airspace to bring
their tankers deep into northern Iraq. Also, bear in mind that during the
whole war the IRIAF had to keep at least one B707 and/or a B747 in tanker
configuration on permanent alert: either as tankers to support combat
operations, or to fly out and be able to pick up whatever kind of spares or
weapons for the IRIAF were acquired outside Iran. So, I actually find it
rather "normal" under the given circumstances that it happened that the
planes officially assigned to the SahaAir carried IRIAF markings, or the
other way around. Leagal or not: I don't find anything special in this.

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/title_detail.php/title=S6585

Tom Cooper

October 11th 03, 12:31 AM

"robert arndt" > wrote in message
om...

> AF: 40 F-4D/E
> 6 RF-4E
> 20 F-14A
> 40 MiG-29
> 30 SU-24MK
> 44 SU-20/22
> 45 F-5E/F
> 18 F-7
> 18 F-6
> 19 MIRAGE F1

This list is actually rather misinforming than helpfull. For example: Iran
has no 40 MiG-29s, the number is lower, and I would certainly not put them
on the first place of that list. But, Iran has at least 9 RF-4Es, and quite
a few more F-4D/Es; all the Su-20/22s acquired from Iraq are out of service
already since years (actually, they were never in service: few examples were
test-flown, the wrecks of the others can now be seen two times a year on
different shows in Tehran); F-7s were given to Sudan and Tanzania, and all
the "IRGCAF: Take 1" F-6s are "stored" on some junkyard near Tehran already
since 20 years....

> Syria:
>
> 14 SU-27

There are no Su-27s in Syria: the Russians flew four of them to Syria for
display purposes on two occassions in 2001. Due to the aircraft wearing full
SyAAF markings while in Syria, the people who saw them understood they would
be already in service. See AirForcesMonthly magazine, volume July 2003,
p.18.

> 60 MiG-29/UB

Given that the Syrians have got only 36 MiG-29s in 1988 and 1989, that two
of these were shot down by the Israelis in 1989, and two in 2001, and that
two are known to have been lost to other reasons, as well as that they have
purchased 16 examples in 2001, I doubt that there could be 60 of them in
Syria...

> 20 SU-24MK

Given that the Syrians have lost one in a training accidents, but have got
at least three replacements from Libya, I doubt this figure is truth either.

> 96 SU-20/22/BKL

There is nothing like "SU-20/22/BKL"; there was, once before, the Su-7BKL in
the USSR, but this version was never exported (Su-7B and Su-7BMKs were
exported). Most of the surviving SyAAF Su-20s and Su-22s are
inoperational(this is what causes some sources to claim that the "SyAAF is
short of collapse")....

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/title_detail.php/title=S6585

robert arndt

October 11th 03, 03:58 AM

"TJ" > wrote in message >...
> "robert arndt" > wrote in message
> om...
> > (Kenneth Williams) wrote in message
> >...
> > > Excuse me please, but what frontline aircraft and weapons do each of
> > > these nations possess in the event of another Arab-Israeli war? Do
> > > either of them have anything remotely as good as the Israelis?
> > >
> > > I know Syria has a bunch of different MiGs and Iran has a mix of MiGs
> > > and left-over F-4s and Tomcats, but have they made any new purchases
> > > or upgraded their a/c?
> > >
> > > Israel seems guaranteed of success with all the US-supplied a/c and
> > > combat experience/training.
> > >
> > > Kenneth Williams
> >
> > Ken,
> >
> > From "The Int. Directory of Military Aircraft 2002/2003" the AF
> > fighter/strike inventory for all 3 nations is as follows:
> >
> > Iran:
> >
> > AF: 40 F-4D/E
> > 6 RF-4E
> > 20 F-14A
> > 40 MiG-29
> > 30 SU-24MK
> > 44 SU-20/22
> > 45 F-5E/F
> > 18 F-7
> > 18 F-6
> > 19 MIRAGE F1
> >
> > Israel:
> >
> > 40 F-4E
> > 53 F-4E 2000
> > 12 RF-4E
> > ?? F-4 ALL VARIANTS (IN STORAGE)
> > 25 F-15I*
> > 44 F-15 A/B
> > 27 F-15 C/D
> > 102 F-16I*
> > 104 F-16 A/B
> > 125 F-16 C/D
> > 50 KFIR C-7/TC7 (PLUS STORAGE UNITS)
> > 105 A-4N (PLUS STORAGE UNITS)
> >
> > Syria:
> >
> > 14 SU-27
> > 60 MiG-29/UB
> > 40 MiG-25/PD/RB/PU
> > 80 MiG-23/MF/ML/MS
> > 66 MiG-23/BN/UM
> > 220 MiG-21
> > 30 MiG-17F
> > 20 SU-24MK
> > 96 SU-20/22/BKL
> > 70 L-39
> > 40 L-29
> > 15 MiG-15/UTI
> >
> > Rob
>
> Not very accurate Rob. Missed out the Iranian Su-25s. Syria has no Su-27s of
> any variant. Like Algeria the Syrians had visiting Flankers purely for sales
> and evaluation purposes.
>
>
> TJ

I'm afraid you're wrong. Syria aquired 14 Su-27s from Russia in 2000
and they are listed in every updated aircraft reference book I have.
Syrian AF 826 Squadron operates them. As for the Iranian captured
Iraqi Su-25s, none are operational that's why they are not listed in
any updated reference manual.

Rob

Tom Cooper

October 11th 03, 09:01 AM

"robert arndt" > wrote in message
om...
> I'm afraid you're wrong. Syria aquired 14 Su-27s from Russia in 2000
> and they are listed in every updated aircraft reference book I have.
> Syrian AF 826 Squadron operates them.

Being the one who published the first report about the Su-27s being seen in
Syria (in AFM volume July 2000, p.16), and the one who corrected it (as said
above, AFM volume July 2003, p.18), I have a strong feeling Robert, you're
talking about things you don't have a slightest clue about. To cite myself:

"No Flankers in Syria
Contrary to press reports in 2000, it is now known that the Syrian Arab Air
Force (SyAAF) is not operating Su-27s (amending "Four Flankers in Syria,
July 2000, pl.16). However, this does not mean that the Su-27 has never been
seen in Syria, as reported at the time. In 1999 and 2000, Moscow started
intensive efforts to sell Su-27s to Damascus and there are indications that
the Russians are still trying to do so. On no fewer than four occasions,
Su-27s have been flown to Syria in order to be demonstrated to the SyAAF
pilots and engineering officers, in order to familiarise them with the
aircraft. One such event took place in autumn 1999, and another in April
2000, when two Su-27s drawn from Russian Air Force units were deployed to
the SyAAF Academy at Minakh AB, a further two going directly to Damascus. On
both occasions, the aircraft also carried "full" SyAAF markings, and a group
of Syrian pilots was permitted to fly them, putting the aircraft through a
series of intensive and prolonged tests. Quite why the Syrians did not in
the end purchase the Su-27s remains unclear - one reason was almost
certainly the lack of funding on the Syrian side. However, Syrian sources
stress that this was not exactly the case, saying they were refusing Russian
requests to pay debts for equipment supplied during the 1980s, variously
reported to be between $2 and $5 billion.
The Syrians were unwilling to pay for equipment which in their opinion was
neither "top of the range" nor effective in combat against the Israeli. It
seems that Moscow somehow accepted this decision and orders for certain
other weapons, including AT-14 ATGMs, were accepted, with deliveries
commencing in 2002. The Su-27 deal was not, however, to be finalised.
Another problem seems to have been the fact that Rosobornexport was offering
Syria only eight Su-27s and four Su-27UBs (at an unknown price) in April
2001; one month later another offer was made, for then Su-27S and two
Su-27UBs. The Syrians, however, wanted many more Flankers. Citing a study
prepared for the SyAAF, Damascus stressed that 42 Flankers would be the
absolute minimum to be of any use to the Syrian Air Force. It remains
unknown why the Russians refused to supply this many. When negotiations with
Sukhoi fell through, the SyAAF went back to RSK MiG and ordered 22 MiG-29s
(all second-hand/used airframes, but upgraded to an as-yet-unknown
standard), together with 300 "upgraded air-to-air missiles" of unspecified
type. At least 16 of these Fulcrums were delivered to Syria in 2001 and
2002, and are believed* to be operational with one of the three units flying
the type. Interestingly, this deal was never announced by RSK MiG or made
public."

*Meanwhile it is _known_ that they are operational.

The 826th FS still flies MiG-21bis, from al-Quasyr AB.

> As for the Iranian captured
> Iraqi Su-25s, none are operational that's why they are not listed in
> any updated reference manual.

Ok, so, how do you explain two of´them being displayed in IRGCAF markings on
a special part of the military parade held in Tehran, on 22 September this
year?

Or, how do you explain the US complaints about Georgian technicians
refubishing them in Iran?

BTW, they were not "captured" from Iraq, but flown to Iran by defecting
Iraqi pilots...

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/title_detail.php/title=S6585

robert arndt

October 11th 03, 03:39 PM

October 11th 03, 03:45 PM

"robert arndt"

> I'm afraid you're wrong. Syria aquired 14 Su-27s from Russia in 2000
> and they are listed in every updated aircraft reference book I have.
> Syrian AF 826 Squadron operates them. As for the Iranian captured
> Iraqi Su-25s, none are operational that's why they are not listed in
> any updated reference manual.
>
> Rob

Rob, consider Coalition forces stationed in the immediate region around
Syria. The Flanker does not exist on any threat assessment of Syria. There
is a reason for this simply because the Syrians do not operate the type. The
Iranians have been keen to obtain more Su-25 airframes. This year they
received a delivery of additional Su-25s. Reference books and on-line
references are all very good, but like that list you provided of Iranian and
Syrian fighter/bomber inventories they are prone to error. Flankers were in
Syria, and similarly Algeria, only for potential
sales/evaluation/demonstration purposes only.

TJ

Kenneth Williams

October 11th 03, 04:28 PM

"Tom Cooper" > wrote in message >...
> "robert arndt" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I'm afraid you're wrong. Syria aquired 14 Su-27s from Russia in 2000
> > and they are listed in every updated aircraft reference book I have.
> > Syrian AF 826 Squadron operates them.
>
> Being the one who published the first report about the Su-27s being seen in
> Syria (in AFM volume July 2000, p.16), and the one who corrected it (as said
> above, AFM volume July 2003, p.18), I have a strong feeling Robert, you're
> talking about things you don't have a slightest clue about. To cite myself:
>
> "No Flankers in Syria
> Contrary to press reports in 2000, it is now known that the Syrian Arab Air
> Force (SyAAF) is not operating Su-27s (amending "Four Flankers in Syria,
> July 2000, pl.16). However, this does not mean that the Su-27 has never been
> seen in Syria, as reported at the time. In 1999 and 2000, Moscow started
> intensive efforts to sell Su-27s to Damascus and there are indications that
> the Russians are still trying to do so. On no fewer than four occasions,
> Su-27s have been flown to Syria in order to be demonstrated to the SyAAF
> pilots and engineering officers, in order to familiarise them with the
> aircraft. One such event took place in autumn 1999, and another in April
> 2000, when two Su-27s drawn from Russian Air Force units were deployed to
> the SyAAF Academy at Minakh AB, a further two going directly to Damascus. On
> both occasions, the aircraft also carried "full" SyAAF markings, and a group
> of Syrian pilots was permitted to fly them, putting the aircraft through a
> series of intensive and prolonged tests. Quite why the Syrians did not in
> the end purchase the Su-27s remains unclear - one reason was almost
> certainly the lack of funding on the Syrian side. However, Syrian sources
> stress that this was not exactly the case, saying they were refusing Russian
> requests to pay debts for equipment supplied during the 1980s, variously
> reported to be between $2 and $5 billion.
> The Syrians were unwilling to pay for equipment which in their opinion was
> neither "top of the range" nor effective in combat against the Israeli. It
> seems that Moscow somehow accepted this decision and orders for certain
> other weapons, including AT-14 ATGMs, were accepted, with deliveries
> commencing in 2002. The Su-27 deal was not, however, to be finalised.
> Another problem seems to have been the fact that Rosobornexport was offering
> Syria only eight Su-27s and four Su-27UBs (at an unknown price) in April
> 2001; one month later another offer was made, for then Su-27S and two
> Su-27UBs. The Syrians, however, wanted many more Flankers. Citing a study
> prepared for the SyAAF, Damascus stressed that 42 Flankers would be the
> absolute minimum to be of any use to the Syrian Air Force. It remains
> unknown why the Russians refused to supply this many. When negotiations with
> Sukhoi fell through, the SyAAF went back to RSK MiG and ordered 22 MiG-29s
> (all second-hand/used airframes, but upgraded to an as-yet-unknown
> standard), together with 300 "upgraded air-to-air missiles" of unspecified
> type. At least 16 of these Fulcrums were delivered to Syria in 2001 and
> 2002, and are believed* to be operational with one of the three units flying
> the type. Interestingly, this deal was never announced by RSK MiG or made
> public."
>
> *Meanwhile it is _known_ that they are operational.
>
> The 826th FS still flies MiG-21bis, from al-Quasyr AB.
>
> > As for the Iranian captured
> > Iraqi Su-25s, none are operational that's why they are not listed in
> > any updated reference manual.
>
> Ok, so, how do you explain two of´them being displayed in IRGCAF markings on
> a special part of the military parade held in Tehran, on 22 September this
> year?
>
> Or, how do you explain the US complaints about Georgian technicians
> refubishing them in Iran?
>
> BTW, they were not "captured" from Iraq, but flown to Iran by defecting
> Iraqi pilots...
>
> Tom Cooper
> Co-Author:
> Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
> http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
> and,
> Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
> http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/title_detail.php/title=S6585

Now I'm really confused. I got out two fairly new aircraft reference
books to verify the aircraft listed and both list the Su-27 in Syrian
inventory. These books are:

- the Directory of Military Aircraft of the World 2001 by Peter March
- the Pocket Guide to Military Aircraft and the World's Airforces 2001
by David Donald

These books also fail to list the Su-25 in Iranian inventory.

I don't have an updated Jane's All the World's Aircraft but could
someone please check the latest volume and see if the information is
the same?

I see you disagree Tom, but every book and online source I've seen
says otherwise. The facts seem to be that 14 Su-27s were purchased by
Syria in 2000 and remain there, operational by the Syrian AF.

I also can't find any reference material that supports your claim that
the Iranian AF actually flies the Su-25. It is my belief that the
aircraft are kept as war trophies and used for propaganda purposes. If
not can you provide some information on the training units for this
aircraft and/or proof of operation?

Kenneth Williams

October 12th 03, 12:35 AM

Kenneth Williams wrote:
> Now I'm really confused. I got out two fairly new aircraft reference
> books to verify the aircraft listed and both list the Su-27 in Syrian
> inventory. These books are:
>
> - the Directory of Military Aircraft of the World 2001 by Peter March
> - the Pocket Guide to Military Aircraft and the World's Airforces 2001
> by David Donald
>
> These books also fail to list the Su-25 in Iranian inventory.
>
> I don't have an updated Jane's All the World's Aircraft but could
> someone please check the latest volume and see if the information is
> the same?
>
> I see you disagree Tom, but every book and online source I've seen
> says otherwise. The facts seem to be that 14 Su-27s were purchased by
> Syria in 2000 and remain there, operational by the Syrian AF.
>
> I also can't find any reference material that supports your claim that
> the Iranian AF actually flies the Su-25. It is my belief that the
> aircraft are kept as war trophies and used for propaganda purposes. If
> not can you provide some information on the training units for this
> aircraft and/or proof of operation?
>
> Kenneth Williams

Kenneth,
There is no operational Flankers in the Syrian inventory. They were in the
country, but left after their stay. This is the reason that Coalition forces
in the immediate region do not have the Flanker down on the threat list. The
Iranians also operate the Frogfoot and this year obtained more for their
inventory to boost their existing ex-Iraqi fleet. This year (July 2003) the
Iranians released a report to the press on recent military developments:

"TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iran said on Sunday its Revolutionary Guards had been
armed with a new medium-range missile, which analysts say could hit Israel
or U.S. bases in the Middle East, after successful tests of the weapon. The
deployment of the Shahab-3 missile, announced by state television, comes as
Iran faces mounting scrutiny about a nuclear energy program which Washington
says may be a front for a covert bid to make atomic arms. State television
showed Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who heads Iran's Islamic power
structure, attending a military parade where at least one Shahab-3 was on
display. Iran announced earlier this month it had successfully completed
tests on the Shahab-3, which analysts say is based on the North Korean
Nodong-1 missile but has been improved with Russian technology. Its range is
about 1,300 km (800 miles). Russian-built Sukhoi Su-25 Frogfoot close
support aircraft, attack and transport helicopters were also handed over on
Sunday to the Revolutionary Guards"

Radio broadcast:

"Iran's official Voice of the Islamic Republic Radio reported July 20 that
the missiles were turned over to the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps
(IRGC). Also supplied were Su-25 jet fighters and transport and attack
helicopters."

TJ

Tom Cooper

October 12th 03, 09:33 AM

"robert arndt" > wrote in message
om...
> "Tom Cooper" > wrote in message
>...
> > "robert arndt" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > I'm afraid you're wrong. Syria aquired 14 Su-27s from Russia in 2000
> > > and they are listed in every updated aircraft reference book I have.
> > > Syrian AF 826 Squadron operates them.
> >
> > > The 826th FS still flies MiG-21bis, from al-Quasyr AB.
>
> Here's a link on the Syrian AF:
>
> > http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/syria/airforce.htm
>
> Like so many others it lists the Su-27 in the Syrian AF inventory.

Yes it does. And, what you are obviously unable to do is to ask for the
source.

Each of these encycolpedia-like "sources of reference" report what their
editors have read somewhere. Such sources are not based on first- or even
second- or third-hand informations, but on the things published who-knows
where. The reason for this is that it takes ages to prepare all such infos,
and that the editors do not have the time to research. The original source
for the Su-27s in Syria is that report from AFM in the year 2000: that was
the first such report in the open-source media to this topic. All the others
have simply taken it from the mentioned issue of that magazine. Check
globalsecurity in few months again, and you'll see that the Su-27s will be
removed from that inventory.

> > > As for the Iranian captured
> > > Iraqi Su-25s, none are operational that's why they are not listed in
> > > any updated reference manual.
> >
> > Ok, so, how do you explain two of´them being displayed in IRGCAF
markings on
> > a special part of the military parade held in Tehran, on 22 September
this
> > year?
> >
> > Or, how do you explain the US complaints about Georgian technicians
> > refubishing them in Iran?
> >
> > BTW, they were not "captured" from Iraq, but flown to Iran by defecting
> > Iraqi pilots...
>
> Displayed aircraft are not the same as operational aircraft. Please
> tell us the Iranian unit that operates the Frogfoots- you can't
> because they are non-op.

Have you been there so to know if the aircraft are operational or not? Have
you seen any of them? Have you talked with any of the crews?

Have you at least taken care to read the reports like the one posted by TJ
futher bellow?

> BTW, the aircraft were indeed captured as
> Iran refused to return them to Iraq after the war.

AFAIK, "to capture" something in the military sence means to take it by the
means of force. The Su-25s were not forcefully taken by the Iranians, but
delivered to them.

If you would have ever taken care to research a little bit about the
backgrounds of the Iraqi flights to Iran, in 1991, you would know why do I
insist on the difference.

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/title_detail.php/title=S6585

Tom Cooper

October 12th 03, 10:49 AM

"Kenneth Williams" > wrote in message
m...

> Now I'm really confused. I got out two fairly new aircraft reference
> books to verify the aircraft listed and both list the Su-27 in Syrian
> inventory. These books are:
>
> - the Directory of Military Aircraft of the World 2001 by Peter March
> - the Pocket Guide to Military Aircraft and the World's Airforces 2001
> by David Donald

Kenneth,
the editors that prepare such books do not research in the true sence of
that word: they lack the time for doing anything similar, and instead depend
on the informations from other sources. They instead use other "sources of
reference" for compiling their work. In the case of the "Su-27s in Syria"
topic, however one turns it, the basic information is that from the AFM
published in 2000.

There are frequently such cases. Let me offer you a brilliant example.

I'm sure that you have hard about that well-known Iraqi claim one of their
Mi-24s has shot down an Iranian F-4?

This claim was originally published on 27 October 1982, by the Iraqi
magazine "Baghdad Observer," a publication controlled by the former Iraqi
regime, published in Baghdad, and targeting Western reporters underway in
Iraq.

In the report with the title "The Day of the Helicopter Gunship" an air
battle was briefly described that supposedly developed several days earlier,
and in which one Mi-24 Hind attack helicopter had shot down an Iranian F-4
Phantom. According to the "Baghdad Observer," the engagement happened "north
of the Eyn-e Khosh area" and the Phantom was destroyed by a "next
generation, long-range, AT-6 Sprial ATGM," fired by a Mi-24 helicopter
specially prepared and brought to Iraq by the Soviets in order to test the
AT-6 missile in the air-to-air mode.

Ever since, this claim has been making rounds in many Western, Ukrainian,
and Russian publications. The basis of this reporting was the fact that the
article from the Baghdad Observer was forwarded by the FBIS. FBIS is Foreign
Broadcast Information Service, a Washington based company, scanning the
press, TV&Radio reports all around the world. On 28 October, 1982, FBIS
issued its Communiqué No. 885, FBIS-MEA-82-209, on the page E2 of which one
can find the forwarded report from the Baghdad Observer.

This story then spread approximately in the following order:
- Steven J. Zaloga & George J. Balin, Anti-Tank Helicopters, Osprey, 1986,
p. 36; "Hind, Overpowering or Overrated?," Air International, May 1984, p.
252;
- David C. Isby, Weapons And Tactics of the Soviet Army, Jane's, 2nd Ed.,
1988, p. 442;
- John Everett-Heath, Soviet Helicopters, 2nd Ed., Jane's, 1988, p. 131;
- Steven J. Zaloga, "ATA: Helicopter Dogfighting", Mi Seitelman; Ed.,
Advanced Combat Helicopters, Evolving Roles, Motorbooks Int'l, 1988, p. 10;
- John Fricker, "Russian Round-Up", Air International, September 1989, p.
131:
- John Fricker, "Recent Soviet Rotary-wing Revelations", Air International,
January 1990, p. 19;
- John W. R. Taylor & Kenneth Munson, "Gallery of Middle East Airpower", Air
Force Magazine, October 1992, pp. 68-69;
- Yossef Bodansky, "Iraq's Rotary Assets", Part 1, Defense Helicopter World,
Vol. 9, No. 5, October-November 1990, p. 24;

Each of these authors and publications actually only repeated the original
claim: they did not add any new informations to it, their authors did not
start a separate research to this topic, trying to locate the eventual
Russian or Iraqi crews, or to find out if the Russians really tested the
AT-6 as AAM in Iraq, or trying to find the eventual Iranian crews. They only
"forwarded" the same info originally supplied by the Baghdad Observer, and
forwarded to the West by the FBIS.

By 1990 there was only one person (not me) trying to find out what happened.
So, after the end of the Cold War the man in question (a highly experienced
US Army attack-helicopter pilot, especially interested in helicopters in air
combat), went out to try to find what happened. He interviewed several
former Soviet dignitaries, trying to find out more: but there was nothing
more. No additional details; no gun-camera pictures, no names, nothing.

During the 1990s this claim then became "en vogue" in Polish, Ukrainian and
Russian publications too, the authors of which for an unknown reason started
thinking that the original source for the publication of this claim would be
the "US intelligence" (see Y. Gordon's article about the Mi-24 in the WAPJ
37). This "US intelligence", however, was nothing more than the FBIS. A raw
confirmation for this is Gordon even went so far to explain that during the
IPGW (Iraq-iran War), there was a specific number of air-to-air combats
involving Iraqi and Iranian helicopters etc. But, this specific number was
nothing else but the summary of the figures mentioned in all the reprots
forwarded by FBIS during the whole IPGW: i.e. the whole research about the
helicopter warfare between Iraq and Iran actually consisted of somebody
there calculating how many helicopter vs helicopter engagements were
reported in different Iraqi and Iranian press communiqués that were later
forwarded by the FBIS.

A true "science", isn't it?

But, that's not all. As everybody better informed here should know, the FBIS
is _no_ "US intelligence,": it is an information service that compiles
reports from all possible foreign media sources and broadcasts, and reports
these to its clients in the USA. The FBIS neither confirms nor denies
reports it is forwarding: it simply reports what was reported by somebody
else. This fact is, however, was completely ignored in this case by almost
everybody involved. In fact, Y. Gordon went even so far to explain that the
Iranian F-4 in question was shot down by that Mi-24 on 27 October 1982 -
i.e. the date the original report had actually been published for the first
time in Baghdad Observer, which in turn obviously described that the
engagement had happened several days earlier! Gordon, however, was not the
only one: several other Russian, Ukrainian, and Polish authors did exactly
the same, with the slight difference that specific authors explained it
wasn't the AT-6 that was used, but a salvo of unguided rockets, or gunfire
or whatever else.

However one turns it, this claim is widely been accepted as "authentic," and
considered as "confirmed" even by observers with immense and undisputable
knowledge about helicopters and anti-armour warfare, or former dignitaries
of the Soviet Air Force and airspace industry. Most Russian and Ukrainian
students use it to "confirm" the capabilities and firepower of the Mi-24
attack helicopter and the AT-6 missile, even if actually very few people
know anything about the background of the claim, or its initial source,
while others are obviously ignoring these, while maintaining that the claim
was confirmed by "US intelligence." Significantly, even Western armoured
warfare experts who are usually sceptical to accept any kind of "Arab"
claims - especially for destroying such an advanced product of Western
technology like an F-4 Phantom II fighter-bomber - have shown more than
ready to accept that this incident really happened. Considering the number
of sources and their authoritativeness, it seems therefore not easy to
dispute anything in this context.

However, a research with the help of the former Iraqi Mi-25 (that was the
version delivered to Iraq) pilots showed that none of them - not even those
that flew Mi-25s in the given area in the given time in 1982 - ever heard
about any such claim. Research with the help of former and active Iranian
pilots, as well as IRIAF records showed no F-4s being lost at or near the
given time and place. In addition, research with the help of the US Army
files about the testing of the AT-6 (released according to a FOIA inquiry
procedure) showed that the weapon wouldn't be able to hit a target moving as
fast at all. The Russians have tested plenty of their equipment in Iraq
against Iran: but, no Mi-24s, and especially no Mi-24s armed with AT-6s. The
AT-6 was also never delivered to Iraq.

In short: there is no kind of firm evidence that this has ever happened.

Quite on the contrary, given the political situation in Baghdad at the
time - especially after tremendous defeats in the spring of 1982, and in the
face of heavy losses sustained during the Iranian offensives in autumn
1982 - there is a very plausible explanation for the claim being published
in the Baghdad Observer of 27 October 1982... You can find the full story in
the volume 104 of the AirEnthusiast magazine, published in March this year.

And so, there is a similar situation with the Su-27s in Syria: the AFM
published it; the AFM is considered an "authoritative" source; the
deliveries of Su-27s to Syria are "logical" and "plausbile"; and so every
editor of such books concludes that the SyAAF "must" have 14 Su-27s.

A closer examination of the case proved, however, that nothing of this was
the case. The original eyewitnesses were not wrong, they have seen the
Su-27s in Syrian markings on two Syrian air bases, but these were not in
service with the SyAAF. It was then on the author of the report to have the
guts to correct his own report, and this was done. There was a
misunderstanding of what the people have seen, and this misunderstanding was
now corrected. Things of this kind happen: thanks Lord, nothing bad came out
of this one.

> These books also fail to list the Su-25 in Iranian inventory.

The situation is very similar as above: bear in mind that the manuscript for
a book can be adapted for the last time at best some six months before the
book is being published. Now, given that the Su-25s entered service with the
IRGCAF only very recently, and both of the books you mentioned were
published in 2001... well, that's self-explanatory.

> I see you disagree Tom, but every book and online source I've seen
> says otherwise. The facts seem to be that 14 Su-27s were purchased by
> Syria in 2000 and remain there, operational by the Syrian AF.

No way. To be honest, I can't care less about what some books report: they
are of absolutely no relevance in this case.

The fact is that the Su-27s were sent to Syria four times, of which two
times painted in Syrian markings. The fact is that the sighting of these
aircraft in Syria was explained as if they would be in service. The fact is
that there are no Su-27s in Syria since 2001, and the fact is that the SyAAF
operates no Su-27s. That's all that counts here.

> I also can't find any reference material that supports your claim that
> the Iranian AF actually flies the Su-25. It is my belief that the
> aircraft are kept as war trophies and used for propaganda purposes.

This is your belief, I don't have a problem with this, but have you seen at
least a picture of an IRGCAF Su-25?

No, you have not. So, your belief remains your belief, and you will only be
able to continue talking about beliefs unless one of the photos is published
somewhere, and so you get the facts.

> If not can you provide some information on the training units for this
> aircraft and/or proof of operation?

This will be done, no need to worry about. You will, however, hopefully
understand that a "hobby" of this kind is a pretty expensive one, so there
is a need to make at least some kind of money first when publishing such
stuff.

What can currently be published is this:
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_249.shtml

If you attempt to carefully compare these photos with any other published so
far about this parade you will hopefully notice the difference.

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/title_detail.php/title=S6585