Practicing my scan

[Paul Tomblin]

When I don't fly IFR for a period of time, I don't seem to have any
problem with approaches or procedures or the usual stuff, but my scan goes
to hell. After looking over at the GPS or down at the chart and finding
myself in a 40 degree bank, I tend to turn on the autopilot and leave it
on until it's time to do the approach. (I don't seem to have problems
with the scan in the approach because I'm totally focused on that one
thing and trying to write a new route clearance, look it up on the chart,
program it into the GPS, tune the VORs, talk to my wife, etc.)

Is there a good way to practice scan? I imagine a full blown sim would be
overkill, and I'm not sure my anaemic Windows computer could keep up with
all the fancy bells and whistles in MSFS anyway. Is there a cheap way
that doesn't require a huge outlay in new hardware?

--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
It isn't the volts that kill, it's the missing brain waves.
-- Matt Roberds

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 17 Sep 2007 14:55:57 +0000 (UTC),
(Paul Tomblin) wrote:

>When I don't fly IFR for a period of time, I don't seem to have any
>problem with approaches or procedures or the usual stuff, but my scan goes
>to hell. After looking over at the GPS or down at the chart and finding
>myself in a 40 degree bank, I tend to turn on the autopilot and leave it
>on until it's time to do the approach. (I don't seem to have problems
>with the scan in the approach because I'm totally focused on that one
>thing and trying to write a new route clearance, look it up on the chart,
>program it into the GPS, tune the VORs, talk to my wife, etc.)
>
>Is there a good way to practice scan? I imagine a full blown sim would be
>overkill, and I'm not sure my anaemic Windows computer could keep up with
>all the fancy bells and whistles in MSFS anyway. Is there a cheap way
>that doesn't require a huge outlay in new hardware?

You don't need many bells and whistles when using MSFS. There's
virtually no scenery but you do need enough computing power to give
readable dials. I use FS 2004 in the main PC (1.8GHz) but it's not
much good on the laptop (1.3GHz) due to an inadequate video card &
memory. The laptop will however run FS98 which has less bells &
whistles.

MSFS is very good for IFR practice and is possibly more demanding than
real IFR as it is less stable. Blink for a second or two and you're
drifting!

I only have an IMC rating but use it for practice. Set poor visibility
and 8/8 cloud with base around 200ft and <1 mile visibility and follow
the ILS?

[Robert M. Gary]

On Sep 17, 7:55 am, (Paul Tomblin) wrote:
> When I don't fly IFR for a period of time, I don't seem to have any
> problem with approaches or procedures or the usual stuff, but my scan goes
> to hell. After looking over at the GPS or down at the chart and finding
> myself in a 40 degree bank, I tend to turn on the autopilot and leave it
> on until it's time to do the approach. (I don't seem to have problems
> with the scan in the approach because I'm totally focused on that one
> thing and trying to write a new route clearance, look it up on the chart,
> program it into the GPS, tune the VORs, talk to my wife, etc.)

You need to mulittask more. While you are tuning a VOR you should be
glacing back to your 6 pack as you spin the knob. You should never
just focus on one thing (charts, GPS, etc) you should always be
glacing back.

-Robert, CFII

[Peter R.]

On 9/17/2007 10:55:55 AM, wrote:

> Is there a good way to practice scan? I imagine a full blown sim would be
> overkill, and I'm not sure my anaemic Windows computer could keep up with
> all the fancy bells and whistles in MSFS anyway. Is there a cheap way that
> doesn't require a huge outlay in new hardware?

Why not consider purchasing a copy of MSFS 2004 from eBay or other software
site and then dialing down all the "bells and whistles" aka display settings.
That and setting weather to 250 feet overcast in a 5,000 foot deep layer
should result in the sim easily running on your PC to give you what you need,
which is a cheap instrument scan practice tool.

--
Peter

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Peter R." > said:
>Why not consider purchasing a copy of MSFS 2004 from eBay or other software
>site and then dialing down all the "bells and whistles" aka display settings.
>That and setting weather to 250 feet overcast in a 5,000 foot deep layer
>should result in the sim easily running on your PC to give you what you need,
>which is a cheap instrument scan practice tool.

Would using it with a mouse provide reasonable scan practice, or do I need
to buy a yoke or joystick?


--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
"Many of the places I've worked had RAID 666. If a disk crashed,
everything went to Hell." - Stephan Zielinski

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Paul Tomblin wrote:
> In a previous article, "Peter R." > said:
>> Why not consider purchasing a copy of MSFS 2004 from eBay or other software
>> site and then dialing down all the "bells and whistles" aka display settings.
>> That and setting weather to 250 feet overcast in a 5,000 foot deep layer
>> should result in the sim easily running on your PC to give you what you need,
>> which is a cheap instrument scan practice tool.
>
> Would using it with a mouse provide reasonable scan practice, or do I need
> to buy a yoke or joystick?

Get yourself a yoke. I like the CH which also includes throttle, gear and flap
switches, along with several programable other switches. I am a firm believer
in MSFS set up just like Peter R. said.... low ceiling, thick layer. It's
excellent practice to get your scan back up to speed.

Most people will also tell you it's easier to fly a real airplane than the sim.
That's true enough so if you can handle the sim IFR, you should have no
difficulty with fixation in the real thing. You have to keep the eyeballs
moving!



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Peter R.]

On 9/17/2007 7:25:32 PM, wrote:

> Would using it with a mouse provide reasonable scan practice, or do I need
> to buy a yoke or joystick?

IMO, if you can find a cheap yoke (CH Yoke on eBay or via comparison web
shopping), consider purchasing it as it will take away the majority of the
difficulty in controlling the sim aircraft while you are practicing your
scan. Second would be a joystick and third would be the mouse. The keyboard
completes the list of easiest-to-most difficult control of the sim aircraft
while practicing your scan.

--
Peter

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> said:
>Paul Tomblin wrote:
>> Would using it with a mouse provide reasonable scan practice, or do I need
>> to buy a yoke or joystick?
>
>Get yourself a yoke. I like the CH which also includes throttle, gear and flap
>switches, along with several programable other switches. I am a firm believer

Many years ago I bought a CH yoke and a copy of Elite, but I never used it
because I just hated the feel of the CH yoke. The springs just don't act
anything like a real plane, especialy in pitch. I ended up not using it
for pitch at all, just flying the trim. Are the new ones better?

--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
To iterate is human; to recurse, is divine.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Paul Tomblin wrote:
>> Get yourself a yoke. I like the CH which also includes throttle, gear and
>> flap switches, along with several programable other switches. I am a firm
>> believer
>
> Many years ago I bought a CH yoke and a copy of Elite, but I never used it
> because I just hated the feel of the CH yoke. The springs just don't act
> anything like a real plane, especialy in pitch. I ended up not using it
> for pitch at all, just flying the trim. Are the new ones better?


I don't know. The one thing I did which improved mine no end on controlling
pitch was I lubricated the shaft with silicon grease. Before each session I run
it back and forth while turning it to its stops, which breaks up any friction
points. It operates MUCH more smoothly at that point.

Hey, this isn't going to convince anybody it's an acceptable substitute for an
airplane. But it will get your scan back up to speed... which is all you really
care about, right? It's also very good for remembering procedure.

As little as I fly these days, I typically will fly the approaches I am most
likely to get on the cross country on the sim a day or so before the real trip
in the airplane. Then everything just seems to slow down to a manageable level
if I get into some weather.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
>
> I don't know. The one thing I did which improved mine no end on controlling
> pitch was I lubricated the shaft with silicon grease. Before each session I run
> it back and forth while turning it to its stops, which breaks up any friction
> points. It operates MUCH more smoothly at that point.

I have that same yoke, which I hate. Your suggestion sounds like it's
got a lot of potential.

By silicone grease, do you mean the clear stuff, like "bulb grease?"

Thanks!

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> said:
>Paul Tomblin wrote:
>>> Get yourself a yoke. I like the CH which also includes throttle, gear and
>>> flap switches, along with several programable other switches. I am a firm
>>> believer
>>
>> Many years ago I bought a CH yoke and a copy of Elite, but I never used it
>> because I just hated the feel of the CH yoke. The springs just don't act
>> anything like a real plane, especialy in pitch. I ended up not using it
>> for pitch at all, just flying the trim. Are the new ones better?
>
>
>I don't know. The one thing I did which improved mine no end on controlling
>pitch was I lubricated the shaft with silicon grease. Before each session I run
>it back and forth while turning it to its stops, which breaks up any friction
>points. It operates MUCH more smoothly at that point.

I don't think that would help my big problem with the yoke. I mean, just
for instance, think of establishing a climb. In the plane, you pull back,
adjust a bit to get the pitch right, then adjust the trim to take the
force out. With the CH yoke, you can pull back, but if you want to hold
that, instead of a natural "trimming out the force", you've got to put in
enough trim to hold the climb while letting the yoke return to spring
neutral, which requires some bizarre coordination. I don't know what you
call that, but it's nothing like flying. Like I said, when I try it, I
usually end up ignoring the yoke and using the trim wheel entirely.

Same with bank angles - if you let go of the yoke entirely, it sits there
at neutral. A real yoke bounces around and requires correction. And if
you apply a very small force to one side of a real yoke, like if you're
not supporting your arm on the arm rest properly, the plane will slowly
follow that force into a bank. The CH yoke will let you know you're doing
that by spring force.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
Science is like sex: sometimes something useful comes out, but that's
not why we're doing it.
-- Richard Feynman

[Mark Hansen]

On 09/18/07 06:01, Paul Tomblin wrote:
> In a previous article, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> said:
>>Paul Tomblin wrote:
>>>> Get yourself a yoke. I like the CH which also includes throttle, gear and
>>>> flap switches, along with several programable other switches. I am a firm
>>>> believer
>>>
>>> Many years ago I bought a CH yoke and a copy of Elite, but I never used it
>>> because I just hated the feel of the CH yoke. The springs just don't act
>>> anything like a real plane, especialy in pitch. I ended up not using it
>>> for pitch at all, just flying the trim. Are the new ones better?
>>
>>
>>I don't know. The one thing I did which improved mine no end on controlling
>>pitch was I lubricated the shaft with silicon grease. Before each session I run
>>it back and forth while turning it to its stops, which breaks up any friction
>>points. It operates MUCH more smoothly at that point.
>
> I don't think that would help my big problem with the yoke. I mean, just
> for instance, think of establishing a climb. In the plane, you pull back,
> adjust a bit to get the pitch right, then adjust the trim to take the
> force out. With the CH yoke, you can pull back, but if you want to hold
> that, instead of a natural "trimming out the force", you've got to put in
> enough trim to hold the climb while letting the yoke return to spring
> neutral, which requires some bizarre coordination. I don't know what you
> call that, but it's nothing like flying. Like I said, when I try it, I
> usually end up ignoring the yoke and using the trim wheel entirely.
>
> Same with bank angles - if you let go of the yoke entirely, it sits there
> at neutral. A real yoke bounces around and requires correction. And if
> you apply a very small force to one side of a real yoke, like if you're
> not supporting your arm on the arm rest properly, the plane will slowly
> follow that force into a bank. The CH yoke will let you know you're doing
> that by spring force.
>

Well, it's true that the CH yoke does not provide the feel of a real
airplane - but I think there is only one person on this planet who
would argue with that anyway ;-)

However, it's not that hard to get used to. And as for practicing the scan,
having the attitude harder to control is not such a bad thing. It really
gets you looking at the instruments.

When I'm practicing my scan, I'll hand fly the sim, including changes in
airspeed, altitude, direction, etc. - all are more difficult in the sim
than in the real plane, but that just provide for more practice in watching
and reacting to the instruments.

When I'm practicing navigation or approaches, I'll make more use of the
auto pilot - usually just altitude hold as it can be frustrating trying
to hold altitude by hand in the sim.

It's been a long time since I've tried to fly with a mouse or keyboard, but
the yoke is a big step up in my opinion.

By the way, I don't use the mechanical trim wheel mounted on the CH yoke.
I use the electric trim via a rocker switch.



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

B A R R Y wrote:
>> I don't know. The one thing I did which improved mine no end on controlling
>> pitch was I lubricated the shaft with silicon grease. Before each session I
>> run it back and forth while turning it to its stops, which breaks up any
>> friction points. It operates MUCH more smoothly at that point.
>
> I have that same yoke, which I hate. Your suggestion sounds like it's
> got a lot of potential.
>
> By silicone grease, do you mean the clear stuff, like "bulb grease?"


I'm not sure it's the same. I've got some "bulb grease" which looks like the
same stuff but it has the consistency of a bar of soap or a wax candle. The
stuff I used on my yoke is the same silicon grease I used to lube o-rings when I
worked on scuba regulators. It's translucent, can come in either a squeeze tube
or a small tub and has the same consistency as car grease or toothpaste. The
reason I use silicon grease instead of car grease is that it doesn't ruin
clothes and I know the silicon won't degrade rubber parts. Besides, I've got
plenty of it left over from my dive shop days.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Paul Tomblin wrote:
>> I don't know. The one thing I did which improved mine no end on controlling
>> pitch was I lubricated the shaft with silicon grease. Before each session I
>> run it back and forth while turning it to its stops, which breaks up any
>> friction points. It operates MUCH more smoothly at that point.
>
> I don't think that would help my big problem with the yoke. I mean, just
> for instance, think of establishing a climb. In the plane, you pull back,
> adjust a bit to get the pitch right, then adjust the trim to take the
> force out. With the CH yoke, you can pull back, but if you want to hold
> that, instead of a natural "trimming out the force", you've got to put in
> enough trim to hold the climb while letting the yoke return to spring
> neutral, which requires some bizarre coordination. I don't know what you
> call that, but it's nothing like flying. Like I said, when I try it, I
> usually end up ignoring the yoke and using the trim wheel entirely.


I will acknowledge it doesn't operate the same as a real airplane. In fact, the
way the trim operates is the main reason it doesn't... at least in normal modes
of flight. This is why it's damned near worthless in teaching primary flight.

That being said, I've got the trim programmed into the gray momentary toggle on
the left horn of the yoke. I handle the adjustment with my left thumb. It's
just not that big of a problem.


> Same with bank angles - if you let go of the yoke entirely, it sits there
> at neutral. A real yoke bounces around and requires correction. And if
> you apply a very small force to one side of a real yoke, like if you're
> not supporting your arm on the arm rest properly, the plane will slowly
> follow that force into a bank. The CH yoke will let you know you're doing
> that by spring force.


And all of that requires you keep your scan going to catch it, right? You can't
just put it somewhere and expect it to stay there without some correction. I
will remind you the whole point of this discussion was to assist in keeping scan
speed up for someone who doesn't fly IFR often enough. Can you think of a more
cost effective way to accomplish that?

Only somebody who's never flown is going to think MSFS is very realistic. But
it's a very good procedure and scan exercise for IFR purposes. BTW, I always
use the 2-D mode with the instrument panel taking up much of the view. I still
can't land it worth a damn but that's OK... I can land a real airplane just
fine. Like I said, nobody will mistake one for the other.

And unlike a regular airplane, I can go back and print out a sheet that shows
how closely I followed the ILS on the way down, both hortizontally and
vertically.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Mark Hansen wrote:
> However, it's not that hard to get used to. And as for practicing the scan,
> having the attitude harder to control is not such a bad thing. It really
> gets you looking at the instruments.


Which was the point.


> By the way, I don't use the mechanical trim wheel mounted on the CH yoke.
> I use the electric trim via a rocker switch.


Exactly. It has been said that the measure of a man's genius is how much he
agrees with you. You, sir, are a veritable Einstein. <G>



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
> It's translucent, can come in either a squeeze tube
> or a small tub and has the same consistency as car grease or toothpaste.

Ahhh! I have some of that stuff for mountain bike shocks.

[Ray Andraka]

Paul Tomblin wrote:


>
> Many years ago I bought a CH yoke and a copy of Elite, but I never used it
> because I just hated the feel of the CH yoke. The springs just don't act
> anything like a real plane, especialy in pitch. I ended up not using it
> for pitch at all, just flying the trim. Are the new ones better?
>

Exactly my experience. Does the old Elite run under XP? (I think I
have version 4.something of elite, which has a box that connectos to the
the computer via a serial Rs232 port.

[john hawkins]

I also use MSFS for getting my head in the game. I 've never tried a yoke,
just a joystick. I have flown IRL with both stick and yoke so don't mind
using the joystick.

Trim is a bitch. I downloaded real trim from Avsim http://www.avsim.com/

Join the group (free) and download realtrim11.zip from the avsim library



RealTrim is a Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004(tm) module that makes trimming
aircrafts more realistic and resemble real-life. It can be activated via
key-press when the sim-pilot moves the joystick from deflection to neutral,
hence converting the movement of the joystick into movement of the trim
wheel. This matches real-life where back/forward pressure on the elevator
applied by the pilot is trimmed out by ONE operation: moving the trim-wheel.
As the sim-pilot smoothly moves the joystick into neutral position RealTrim
automatically adjusts the elevator trim by a corresponding amount. The
airplane keeps its current pitch configuration - only ONE control input is
required instead of the pilots having to move the joystick into neutral
WHILE tapping the trim-key at the same time. RealTrim also comes with an
option to reduce trim increments making it more precise to adjust trim in
flight with the trim up/down keys.



It works on MOST of the aircraft models ( I usually stick with the baseline
Cessna 182)

It is not like the real thing since there are no pressures to trim out but
it does allow you to trim to a mainly hands off configuration.



I agree with the rest of the guys who advise setting ceiling and visibility
to around minimums. Who needs all the outside view eye candy anyway. Well
maybe the approach lights at night are neat.



The ATC simulation is terrible so I usually ignore it or use the add on
product Radar Contact from http://www.jdtllc.com/ This is not free but it
does add some realism. I like the after flight review. Even if sometimes
they do tell me that FSDO is going to require me to visit them.



Now if they just had a good aerodynamic model and a way to integrate GARMIN
simulation, all would be perfect.



John H.

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> On 9/17/2007 7:25:32 PM, wrote:
>
>> Would using it with a mouse provide reasonable scan practice, or do I
>> need
>> to buy a yoke or joystick?
>
> IMO, if you can find a cheap yoke (CH Yoke on eBay or via comparison web
> shopping), consider purchasing it as it will take away the majority of the
> difficulty in controlling the sim aircraft while you are practicing your
> scan. Second would be a joystick and third would be the mouse. The
> keyboard
> completes the list of easiest-to-most difficult control of the sim
> aircraft
> while practicing your scan.
>
> --
> Peter