F-15/16 Harpoon ( Was: B-52/Harpoon)

[Allen Thomson]

Somewhat against my better judgment, I got interested in the current
Harpoon discussions and, googling about, found

http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfile/missiles/wep-harp.html

The Harpoon missile has been integrated on foreign F-16 aircraft
and is presently being integrated on foreign F-15 aircraft.

So the question is, what countries have/are getting Harpoon
capability?

As for the F-16, the answer seems to be ROK, Japan, Saudi Arabia,
Israel, Greece, Poland, etc. Whether they actually implement the
capability is TBD.

http://www.geocities.com/~jask16/airforce/F16.html
Armament:
[other stuff]
AGM-84 Harpoon (block 50 only)

But I haven't been able to find information on who is or might be
getting the F-15 Harpoon versions. Anybody know?

[Thomas Schoene]

"Allen Thomson" > wrote in message
om

> But I haven't been able to find information on who is or might be
> getting the F-15 Harpoon versions. Anybody know?

Harpoon is part of the armament package offered for the ROK's F-15Ks.

--�
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

[phil hunt]

On 14 Oct 2003 10:26:37 -0700, Allen Thomson > wrote:
>Somewhat against my better judgment, I got interested in the current
>Harpoon discussions and, googling about, found
>
>http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfile/missiles/wep-harp.html
>
> The Harpoon missile has been integrated on foreign F-16 aircraft
> and is presently being integrated on foreign F-15 aircraft.
>
>So the question is, what countries have/are getting Harpoon
>capability?
>
>As for the F-16, the answer seems to be ROK, Japan, Saudi Arabia,
>Israel, Greece, Poland, etc.

Since when does Poland have the F-16?

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(My real email address would be > if you added 275
to it and reversed the last two letters).

[Thomas Schoene]

"phil hunt" > wrote in message

> On 14 Oct 2003 10:26:37 -0700, Allen Thomson >
> wrote:

> > So the question is, what countries have/are getting Harpoon
> > capability?
> >
> > As for the F-16, the answer seems to be ROK, Japan, Saudi Arabia,
> > Israel, Greece, Poland, etc.
>
> Since when does Poland have the F-16?

Poland is getting F-16 Block 52s starting in 2006.

--�
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

[Owe Jessen]

Am Wed, 15 Oct 2003 00:20:29 +0100, schrieb
(phil hunt) :

>Since when does Poland have the F-16?

Probably not yet, but ISTR they decided upon the F-16 in their
modernization program.

Owe
--
My from-adress is valid and being read.
www.owejessen.de

[Fred J. McCall]

"Thomas Schoene" > wrote:

:"Allen Thomson" > wrote in message
. com
:
:> But I haven't been able to find information on who is or might be
:> getting the F-15 Harpoon versions. Anybody know?
:
:Harpoon is part of the armament package offered for the ROK's F-15Ks.

But we won't need to worry about them modifying it for land attack
purposes.


--
"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."
-- Charles Pinckney

[Fred J. McCall]

"Thomas Schoene" > wrote:

:"phil hunt" > wrote in message

:> On 14 Oct 2003 10:26:37 -0700, Allen Thomson >
:> wrote:
:
:> > So the question is, what countries have/are getting Harpoon
:> > capability?
:> >
:> > As for the F-16, the answer seems to be ROK, Japan, Saudi Arabia,
:> > Israel, Greece, Poland, etc.
:>
:> Since when does Poland have the F-16?
:
:Poland is getting F-16 Block 52s starting in 2006.

And we don't need to worry about them modifying Harpoon to get a land
attack weapon out of it, either.


--
"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."
-- Charles Pinckney

[ken]

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 10:26:37 -0700, Allen Thomson wrote:


>
> But I haven't been able to find information on who is or might be
> getting the F-15 Harpoon versions. Anybody know?


Check out the picture of Taiwanese Air Force F-16 launches Harpoon

http://www.roc-taiwan.org/taiwan/5-gp/yearbook/chpt08-3.htm

[Fred J. McCall]

(phil hunt) wrote:

:On 14 Oct 2003 10:26:37 -0700, Allen Thomson > wrote:
:>Somewhat against my better judgment, I got interested in the current
:>Harpoon discussions and, googling about, found
:>
:>http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfile/missiles/wep-harp.html
:>
:> The Harpoon missile has been integrated on foreign F-16 aircraft
:> and is presently being integrated on foreign F-15 aircraft.
:>
:>So the question is, what countries have/are getting Harpoon
:>capability?
:>
:>As for the F-16, the answer seems to be ROK, Japan, Saudi Arabia,
:>Israel, Greece, Poland, etc.
:
:Since when does Poland have the F-16?

http://www.spacewar.com/2003/030418085957.k6widswh.html

[KDR]

No need to modify Harpoon for land attack. We're buying SLAM-ER as well...



Fred J. McCall > wrote in message >...
> "Thomas Schoene" > wrote:
>
> :"Allen Thomson" > wrote in message
> . com
> :
> :> But I haven't been able to find information on who is or might be
> :> getting the F-15 Harpoon versions. Anybody know?
> :
> :Harpoon is part of the armament package offered for the ROK's F-15Ks.
>
> But we won't need to worry about them modifying it for land attack
> purposes.

[Fred J. McCall]

[Broken top-posting corrected.]

(KDR) wrote:

:Fred J. McCall > wrote in message >...
:> "Thomas Schoene" > wrote:
:>
:> :"Allen Thomson" > wrote in message
:> . com
:> :
:> :> But I haven't been able to find information on who is or might be
:> :> getting the F-15 Harpoon versions. Anybody know?
:> :
:> :Harpoon is part of the armament package offered for the ROK's F-15Ks.
:>
:> But we won't need to worry about them modifying it for land attack
:> purposes.
:
:No need to modify Harpoon for land attack. We're buying SLAM-ER as well...

Why did you think I made the comment?

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2002/q2/nr_020419m.html


--
"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."
-- Charles Pinckney

[Matt Wiser]

(Allen Thomson) wrote:
>Somewhat against my better judgment, I got interested
>in the current
>Harpoon discussions and, googling about, found
>
>http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfile/missiles/wep-harp.html
>
> The Harpoon missile has been integrated on
>foreign F-16 aircraft
> and is presently being integrated on foreign
>F-15 aircraft.
>
>So the question is, what countries have/are
>getting Harpoon
>capability?
>
>As for the F-16, the answer seems to be ROK,
>Japan, Saudi Arabia,
>Israel, Greece, Poland, etc. Whether they actually
>implement the
>capability is TBD.
>
> http://www.geocities.com/~jask16/airforce/F16.html
> Armament:
> [other stuff]
> AGM-84 Harpoon (block 50 only)
>
>But I haven't been able to find information
>on who is or might be
>getting the F-15 Harpoon versions. Anybody know?
ROK's F-15K version would be likely, and maybe the F-15I the Israelis fly
as well. RSAF has Tornado with Sea Eagle, so they might not need their S's
Harpoon-capable.

Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

[Thomas Schoene]

"Fred J. McCall" > wrote in message

> "Thomas Schoene" > wrote:
>

> > Harpoon is part of the armament package offered for the ROK's
> > F-15Ks.
>
> But we won't need to worry about them modifying it for land attack
> purposes.

Of course not. It comes that way already -- the standard Harpoon Block II
has limited land-attack capability via GPS/INS navigation.

--�
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

[Fred J. McCall]

"Thomas Schoene" > wrote:

:"Fred J. McCall" > wrote in message

:> "Thomas Schoene" > wrote:
:> >
:> > Harpoon is part of the armament package offered for the ROK's
:> > F-15Ks.
:>
:> But we won't need to worry about them modifying it for land attack
:> purposes.
:
:Of course not. It comes that way already -- the standard Harpoon Block II
:has limited land-attack capability via GPS/INS navigation.

Very limited. But that's not why we don't have to worry about it.


--
"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."
-- Charles Pinckney

[Thomas Schoene]

"Fred J. McCall" > wrote in message

> "Thomas Schoene" > wrote:

> > Of course not. It comes that way already -- the standard Harpoon
> > Block II has limited land-attack capability via GPS/INS navigation.
>
> Very limited.

Accuracy should be comparable to a JDAM (since it uses the same guidance
package). That's not a TLAM, but it is better than a poke in the eye with a
sharp stick.

> But that's not why we don't have to worry about it.

Fred, if you have a point, please just make it already. This eliptical BS
is getting very tedious.

--�
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

[Fred J. McCall]

"Thomas Schoene" > wrote:

:"Fred J. McCall" > wrote in message

:> "Thomas Schoene" > wrote:
:
:> > Of course not. It comes that way already -- the standard Harpoon
:> > Block II has limited land-attack capability via GPS/INS navigation.
:>
:> Very limited.
:
:Accuracy should be comparable to a JDAM (since it uses the same guidance
:package). That's not a TLAM, but it is better than a poke in the eye with a
:sharp stick.

It's not an accuracy issue. We're back to the 'how do it fly' issue.
Note that the GPS is NOT really intended to allow you to attack land
targets, but rather to do littoral work and use it in crowded
waterways.

:> But that's not why we don't have to worry about it.
:
:Fred, if you have a point, please just make it already. This eliptical BS
:is getting very tedious.

The point was made over a day ago. The folks buying these are also
buying purpose-built ASMs as part of the packages.

Do try to keep up, won't you?

[Hey, YOU decided to start off with the snotty comments. I just
thought I'd return the favour.]

--
"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."
-- Charles Pinckney

[Thomas Schoene]

"Fred J. McCall" > wrote in message

> "Thomas Schoene" > wrote:
>

> > Accuracy should be comparable to a JDAM (since it uses the same
> > guidance package). That's not a TLAM, but it is better than a poke
> > in the eye with a sharp stick.
>
> It's not an accuracy issue. We're back to the 'how do it fly' issue.
> Note that the GPS is NOT really intended to allow you to attack land
> targets, but rather to do littoral work and use it in crowded
> waterways.

Yes, I know. But the fact remains that it will fly to a set of GPS
coordinates and go bang. I call that a limited land-attack capability.

>
> > > But that's not why we don't have to worry about it.
> >
> > Fred, if you have a point, please just make it already. This
> > eliptical BS is getting very tedious.
>
> The point was made over a day ago. The folks buying these are also
> buying purpose-built ASMs as part of the packages.

Sorry Fred, I see no sign of such a post in the articles I have received in
this thread. It's possible something didn't make it to me, I suppose. If
it was somewhere in the Israeli thread instead, but I gave up on that one a
couple of days ago.


--�
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

[Alan Minyard]

On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 13:29:32 GMT, Fred J. McCall
> wrote:

>"Thomas Schoene" > wrote:
>
>:"Fred J. McCall" > wrote in message

>:> "Thomas Schoene" > wrote:
>:
>:> > Of course not. It comes that way already -- the standard Harpoon
>:> > Block II has limited land-attack capability via GPS/INS navigation.
>:>
>:> Very limited.
>:
>:Accuracy should be comparable to a JDAM (since it uses the same guidance
>:package). That's not a TLAM, but it is better than a poke in the eye with a
>:sharp stick.
>
>It's not an accuracy issue. We're back to the 'how do it fly' issue.
>Note that the GPS is NOT really intended to allow you to attack land
>targets, but rather to do littoral work and use it in crowded
>waterways.

GPS is intended to be accurate everywhere, land, sea, or ice cap, it
makes no difference.
>
Al Minyard

[Fred J. McCall]

"Thomas Schoene" > wrote:

:"Fred J. McCall" > wrote in message

:> "Thomas Schoene" > wrote:
:>
:
:> > Accuracy should be comparable to a JDAM (since it uses the same
:> > guidance package). That's not a TLAM, but it is better than a poke
:> > in the eye with a sharp stick.
:>
:> It's not an accuracy issue. We're back to the 'how do it fly' issue.
:> Note that the GPS is NOT really intended to allow you to attack land
:> targets, but rather to do littoral work and use it in crowded
:> waterways.
:
:Yes, I know. But the fact remains that it will fly to a set of GPS
:coordinates and go bang. I call that a limited land-attack capability.

So do I. Very limited, since it's not much good in any but the
flattest terrain. Oh, you could presumably deliberately use air
launched to what is essentially a 'line of sight' point, but surely
there are so many better weapons for that that no one would do it.

:> > > But that's not why we don't have to worry about it.
:> >
:> > Fred, if you have a point, please just make it already. This
:> > eliptical BS is getting very tedious.
:>
:> The point was made over a day ago. The folks buying these are also
:> buying purpose-built ASMs as part of the packages.
:
:Sorry Fred, I see no sign of such a post in the articles I have received in
:this thread. It's possible something didn't make it to me, I suppose. If
:it was somewhere in the Israeli thread instead, but I gave up on that one a
:couple of days ago.

Someone from Korea (pretty sure it was in this thread, but maybe not)
commented on the F-15K deal shortly after I posted my remark the first
time with something along the lines of "That's right, because we're
buying SLAM-ER, too."

--
"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."
-- Charles Pinckney

[Thomas Schoene]

"Fred J. McCall" > wrote in message

> "Thomas Schoene" > wrote:
> > Yes, I know. But the fact remains that it will fly to a set of GPS
> > coordinates and go bang. I call that a limited land-attack
> > capability.
>
> So do I. Very limited, since it's not much good in any but the
> flattest terrain. Oh, you could presumably deliberately use air
> launched to what is essentially a 'line of sight' point, but surely
> there are so many better weapons for that that no one would do it.

I suspect it may get used from time to time, especially against port
facilities. Some navies with Harpoon II have no other options right now.

It's hard to tell, but some sources suggest that the Advanced Harpoon
control system can produice overland flight profiles, presumably including
some terrin clearance.

> Someone from Korea (pretty sure it was in this thread, but maybe not)
> commented on the F-15K deal shortly after I posted my remark the first
> time with something along the lines of "That's right, because we're
> buying SLAM-ER, too."

OTOH, you said the same thing about Poland, and their package includes only
JDAM and JSOW, not a powered stand-off weapon like SLAM-ER.

--�
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

[Fred J. McCall]

"Thomas Schoene" > wrote:

:"Fred J. McCall" > wrote in message

:>
:> Someone from Korea (pretty sure it was in this thread, but maybe not)
:> commented on the F-15K deal shortly after I posted my remark the first
:> time with something along the lines of "That's right, because we're
:> buying SLAM-ER, too."
:
:OTOH, you said the same thing about Poland, and their package includes only
:JDAM and JSOW, not a powered stand-off weapon like SLAM-ER.

Yes, I did. Compare the range of Harpoon Block II to the range of a
JSOW. Again, not much point in trying to make the Harpoon into some
sort of land attack weapon. It would cost more than it was worth,
given that you already HAVE a dedicated land attack weapon with
roughly the same range and a better warhead.


--
"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."
-- Charles Pinckney

[Thomas Schoene]

"Fred J. McCall" > wrote in message

> "Thomas Schoene" > wrote:
>
> :"Fred J. McCall" > wrote in message
> >
> > >
> > > Someone from Korea (pretty sure it was in this thread, but maybe
> > > not) commented on the F-15K deal shortly after I posted my remark
> > > the first time with something along the lines of "That's right,
> > > because we're buying SLAM-ER, too."
> >
> > OTOH, you said the same thing about Poland, and their package
> > includes only JDAM and JSOW, not a powered stand-off weapon like
> > SLAM-ER.
>
> Yes, I did. Compare the range of Harpoon Block II to the range of a
> JSOW. Again, not much point in trying to make the Harpoon into some
> sort of land attack weapon. It would cost more than it was worth,
> given that you already HAVE a dedicated land attack weapon with
> roughly the same range and a better warhead.

I geuss we're just talking past each other a bit. I agree that this is not
the missile anyone would buy specifically for land-attack. However, the
mssile has the capability and will be in inventory. With so few ship
targets to deal with these days, I expect that some countries will use it in
land-attack mode, if only to justif having bought it in the first place.

--�
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

[tough_1002]

Fred J. McCall > wrote in message >...
> "Thomas Schoene" > wrote:
>
> :"Fred J. McCall" > wrote in message
>
> :>
> :> Someone from Korea (pretty sure it was in this thread, but maybe not)
> :> commented on the F-15K deal shortly after I posted my remark the first
> :> time with something along the lines of "That's right, because we're
> :> buying SLAM-ER, too."
> :
> :OTOH, you said the same thing about Poland, and their package includes only
> :JDAM and JSOW, not a powered stand-off weapon like SLAM-ER.
>
> Yes, I did. Compare the range of Harpoon Block II to the range of a
> JSOW. Again, not much point in trying to make the Harpoon into some
> sort of land attack weapon. It would cost more than it was worth,
> given that you already HAVE a dedicated land attack weapon with
> roughly the same range and a better warhead.

Unless you launch from a ship or sub. Harpoon BII adds GPS to improve
navigation to reduce the anti-ship search area. Once you have GPS on
a Harpoon BII, it is a relatively small step to go to land attack,
especially for near shore targets. Many countries around the world
already have Harpoon launchers on subs and ships. With Harpoon BII
and a minor upgrade to all those launchers, they could have a
sub-launched and ship-launched land attack capability cheap -- kind of
a poor man's TLAM if your targets are not very far inland.