flying for money

[[email protected]]

In a few months I will begin training as a firefighter. I figured
that becoming a pilot would be a great second career. I haven't taken
any schooling for my pilots license and am just curious if anyone has
any advice they can give me?

For instance: Is it profitable? Is it very difficult to get a loan
for a plane? How long does it take to become a pilot of a six to
eight passenger plane? If I'm using the plane for personal use, is
the gas consumption for a multi engine incredibly high?

Thanks for any advice.

[Jim Stewart]

wrote:
> In a few months I will begin training as a firefighter. I figured
> that becoming a pilot would be a great second career. I haven't taken
> any schooling for my pilots license and am just curious if anyone has
> any advice they can give me?

I can't help thinking this is a troll, but
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I think scheduling issues would eliminate the
possibility of firefighting and flying for
profit. How are you going to reconcile the
the hours you're going to be on-call and/or
on duty with the fire department with your
flying customers' variable needs?

I'm gonna guess you're something of an adrenline
junkie and you've decided that hanging out at
the firehouse isn't going to do it. No offense
intended, but you probably ought to pick one
career first and get good at it. You could
always be a lifeflight paramedic and meld the
two.

> For instance: Is it profitable? Is it very difficult to get a loan
> for a plane? How long does it take to become a pilot of a six to
> eight passenger plane? If I'm using the plane for personal use, is
> the gas consumption for a multi engine incredibly high?

Go to your bookstore and buy a couple books on
aircraft ownership. Hang around here and see
what it costs to keep a plane in the air. Learn
what an AMU is before you have to spend a few.

Getting a loan is as easy as your credit is
good. You could be a fairweather private
pilot in 6 months. Longer, probably way longer
for instrument, commercial, multi-engine.

Yes the gas consumption is high and expensive.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Sep 24, 3:03 pm, wrote:
> In a few months I will begin training as a firefighter. I figured
> that becoming a pilot would be a great second career. I haven't taken
> any schooling for my pilots license and am just curious if anyone has
> any advice they can give me?
>
> For instance: Is it profitable? Is it very difficult to get a loan
> for a plane? How long does it take to become a pilot of a six to
> eight passenger plane? If I'm using the plane for personal use, is
> the gas consumption for a multi engine incredibly high?
>
> Thanks for any advice.

I know that in California the CDF is always looking for Firefighters/
Pilots. They do require a fair amount of low level time (most guys
start their career by dusting) and they highly prefer you have an A&P
ticket as well.

-Robert

[[email protected]]

Not sure what a troll is, but thanks for all the advice. I know
someone who knows two people that are piloting and firefighting. We
work one day on and two days off. I assume they just set up a
schedule that allows for flights during the two days off. I never
thought about the lifeflight thing. That may be worth looking into.

I'm not so much of an adrenaline junkie as just looking for something
that can help me out in a few ways and make some extra money-
firefighters don't make very much. Here's some of my thoughts why I
thought it would be a good idea. I market art and have family that
lives all over America, so I have to travel a lot. I kind of figured
that this could be helpful in visiting family and cities where I have
to take art.

I'll definitely hit the book store. Do you know any good books?

Thanks again.

[[email protected]]

Thanks for the help Robert. I haven't thought about going to CA, but
that makes a lot of sense. What is an A&P ticket?

On Sep 24, 7:11 pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> On Sep 24, 3:03 pm, wrote:
>
> > In a few months I will begin training as a firefighter. I figured
> > that becoming a pilot would be a great second career. I haven't taken
> > any schooling for my pilots license and am just curious if anyone has
> > any advice they can give me?
>
> > For instance: Is it profitable? Is it very difficult to get a loan
> > for a plane? How long does it take to become a pilot of a six to
> > eight passenger plane? If I'm using the plane for personal use, is
> > the gas consumption for a multi engine incredibly high?
>
> > Thanks for any advice.
>
> I know that in California the CDF is always looking for Firefighters/
> Pilots. They do require a fair amount of low level time (most guys
> start their career by dusting) and they highly prefer you have an A&P
> ticket as well.
>
> -Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

On Sep 24, 4:57 pm, wrote:
> Thanks for the help Robert. I haven't thought about going to CA, but
> that makes a lot of sense. What is an A&P ticket?

Mechanic. During fire season they position their planes in some remote
areas so they like to hire pilots who can work on the planes. I've
known a couple of guys who have flown for CDF. Usually they know that
is what they want to do and spend a couple years dusting crops to get
a lot of low altitude time.

-Robert

[Gig 601XL Builder]

wrote:
> In a few months I will begin training as a firefighter. I figured
> that becoming a pilot would be a great second career. I haven't taken
> any schooling for my pilots license and am just curious if anyone has
> any advice they can give me?
>
> For instance: Is it profitable? Is it very difficult to get a loan
> for a plane? How long does it take to become a pilot of a six to
> eight passenger plane? If I'm using the plane for personal use, is
> the gas consumption for a multi engine incredibly high?
>
> Thanks for any advice.

Is it profitable?

Depends on so many variables that it is impossible to tell if it would be
for you. There is an old saying in aviation. "It's easy to make a small
fortune in aviation. Just start with a large fortune."

Is it very difficult to get a loan for a plane?

Relative to other business loans you might get, not really.

How long does it take to become a pilot of a six to eight passenger plane?

Really depends on how much time you can spend each week training.

If I'm using the plane for personal use, is the gas consumption for a multi
engine incredibly high?

For a 6 to 8 pax, yes it is pretty high. Unless you are making way more than
most firefighters our pilots you won't be using your 6 & 8 pax plane for
much personal flying.

One thing you might look into is becoming and instructor. It would probably
work better with your schedule and will allow you to build hours. I say this
because it sounds like you think that you can get your commercial
certificate, a 6-8 pax plane, become a charter operator on the side and fly
around in your charter plane when you are not on firefighter duty and not on
charter flights. It just isn't going to happen unless you have a lot of cash
and don't mind parting with a large chunk of it.

[[email protected]]

Thanks man. I kind of figured it would be tough, and I'm definitely
not a rich man by any stretch. I'll look into the instructor thing.
How many hours do you need to start as an instructor? Just thought of
something else, how do you obtain clients? Is it necessary to be
based close to where the clients are, or can you pretty much take
clients from anywhere within a short flying distance?

Thanks again for the help.

[[email protected]]

That's interesting. So, these guys don't use their own planes I'm
assuming? Is that better pay than a typical CA firefighter?

On Sep 24, 11:10 pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> On Sep 24, 4:57 pm, wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the help Robert. I haven't thought about going to CA, but
> > that makes a lot of sense. What is an A&P ticket?
>
> Mechanic. During fire season they position their planes in some remote
> areas so they like to hire pilots who can work on the planes. I've
> known a couple of guys who have flown for CDF. Usually they know that
> is what they want to do and spend a couple years dusting crops to get
> a lot of low altitude time.
>
> -Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

On Sep 25, 3:32 pm, wrote:
> That's interesting. So, these guys don't use their own planes I'm
> assuming? Is that better pay than a typical CA firefighter?

They certainly don't use their own planes. I'm not sure about the pay.
Its got to be better than the ditch diggers though. They are flying
tankers and drop water on fires.

-Robert

[Gig 601XL Builder]

wrote:
> Thanks man. I kind of figured it would be tough, and I'm definitely
> not a rich man by any stretch. I'll look into the instructor thing.
> How many hours do you need to start as an instructor? Just thought of
> something else, how do you obtain clients? Is it necessary to be
> based close to where the clients are, or can you pretty much take
> clients from anywhere within a short flying distance?
>
> Thanks again for the help.

It is neither short or cheap. You first need to get you private, commercial
and instrument certificates. Then you need get the CFI. At that point you
have a couple of options. Work for an FBO or be independent. Working with an
established FBO has the advantage of them finding you students. This is
offset by the fact that your income will be less than you might hope.

My advice to you is find a flying club in your area and start the private
pilot training process. You might not even enjoy it. During the PPL process
hang out and learn all you can about aircraft training and ownership.

[Newps]

A friend of mine has a Huey that has a Forest Service contract. He just
got released from the fires in Montana last week. He gets $5000 per day
to make the helicopter available and he gets $1900 per flying hour in
addition to the $5K. The duty day is 14 hours of which you may fly 8
hours. He always flew within 5 minuites of 8 hours. Every 12 days they
make you take 2 days off. He had his Huey up on the fire for 90 days.
Out of that money you have to pay all your expenses. The Forest Service
does pick up the insurance cost.






Robert M. Gary wrote:

> On Sep 25, 3:32 pm, wrote:
>
>>That's interesting. So, these guys don't use their own planes I'm
>>assuming? Is that better pay than a typical CA firefighter?
>
>
> They certainly don't use their own planes. I'm not sure about the pay.
> Its got to be better than the ditch diggers though. They are flying
> tankers and drop water on fires.
>
> -Robert
>
>

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Newps wrote:
> A friend of mine has a Huey that has a Forest Service contract. He
> just got released from the fires in Montana last week. He gets $5000
> per day to make the helicopter available and he gets $1900 per flying
> hour in addition to the $5K. The duty day is 14 hours of which you
> may fly 8 hours. He always flew within 5 minuites of 8 hours. Every
> 12 days they make you take 2 days off. He had his Huey up on the
> fire for 90 days. Out of that money you have to pay all your
> expenses. The Forest Service does pick up the insurance cost.
>


Curious, about how many days per year does he have the Huey available to
them?

[Newps]

He calls the Forest Service when he is ready, that's how it works. He
isn't interested in working all year and all over the country. I think
this year he made himself available around June 1st. Not much goes on
until about the second week of July.

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:

> Newps wrote:
>
>>A friend of mine has a Huey that has a Forest Service contract. He
>>just got released from the fires in Montana last week. He gets $5000
>>per day to make the helicopter available and he gets $1900 per flying
>>hour in addition to the $5K. The duty day is 14 hours of which you
>>may fly 8 hours. He always flew within 5 minuites of 8 hours. Every
>>12 days they make you take 2 days off. He had his Huey up on the
>>fire for 90 days. Out of that money you have to pay all your
>>expenses. The Forest Service does pick up the insurance cost.
>>
>
>
>
> Curious, about how many days per year does he have the Huey available to
> them?
>
>

[Allen[_1_]]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
> He calls the Forest Service when he is ready, that's how it works. He
> isn't interested in working all year and all over the country. I think
> this year he made himself available around June 1st. Not much goes on
> until about the second week of July.

By your numbers, if I figure correctly, he brings in about $1.6 million in
that 90 day period?

--

*H. Allen Smith*
WACO - We are all here, because we are not all there.

>
> Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>
>> Newps wrote:
>>
>>>A friend of mine has a Huey that has a Forest Service contract. He
>>>just got released from the fires in Montana last week. He gets $5000
>>>per day to make the helicopter available and he gets $1900 per flying
>>>hour in addition to the $5K. The duty day is 14 hours of which you
>>>may fly 8 hours. He always flew within 5 minuites of 8 hours. Every
>>>12 days they make you take 2 days off. He had his Huey up on the
>>>fire for 90 days. Out of that money you have to pay all your
>>>expenses. The Forest Service does pick up the insurance cost.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Curious, about how many days per year does he have the Huey available to
>> them?

[Jim Stewart]

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
> wrote:
>> Thanks man. I kind of figured it would be tough, and I'm definitely
>> not a rich man by any stretch. I'll look into the instructor thing.
>> How many hours do you need to start as an instructor? Just thought of
>> something else, how do you obtain clients? Is it necessary to be
>> based close to where the clients are, or can you pretty much take
>> clients from anywhere within a short flying distance?
>>
>> Thanks again for the help.
>
> It is neither short or cheap. You first need to get you private, commercial
> and instrument certificates. Then you need get the CFI. At that point you
> have a couple of options. Work for an FBO or be independent. Working with an
> established FBO has the advantage of them finding you students. This is
> offset by the fact that your income will be less than you might hope.

The exception is Light sport CFI. Required
experience is 150 hours total consisting of:

100 hours PIC, powered aircraft with
50 hours single engine aircraft
25 hours X-country
10 hours X-country single engine
15 hours PIC light sport aircraft

Not sure why the numbers don't quite add up.

No requirement for commercial or inst.

See FAR 61.411

> My advice to you is find a flying club in your area and start the private
> pilot training process. You might not even enjoy it. During the PPL process
> hang out and learn all you can about aircraft training and ownership.
>
>

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>A friend of mine has a Huey that has a Forest Service contract. He just
>got released from the fires in Montana last week. He gets $5000 per day to
>make the helicopter available and he gets $1900 per flying hour in addition
>to the $5K. The duty day is 14 hours of which you may fly 8 hours. He
>always flew within 5 minuites of 8 hours. Every 12 days they make you take
>2 days off. He had his Huey up on the fire for 90 days. Out of that money
>you have to pay all your expenses. The Forest Service does pick up the
>insurance cost.
>
>
What does operating a Huey cost per hour?

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Matt Barrow wrote:
> "Newps" > wrote in message
> ...
>> A friend of mine has a Huey that has a Forest Service contract. He
>> just got released from the fires in Montana last week. He gets
>> $5000 per day to make the helicopter available and he gets $1900 per
>> flying hour in addition to the $5K. The duty day is 14 hours of
>> which you may fly 8 hours. He always flew within 5 minuites of 8
>> hours. Every 12 days they make you take 2 days off. He had his
>> Huey up on the fire for 90 days. Out of that money you have to pay
>> all your expenses. The Forest Service does pick up the insurance
>> cost.
> What does operating a Huey cost per hour?

Bell trains in them with I assume and instructor for $995/hour.

http://www.bellhelicopter.com/en/training/index.cfm?content=services/courses/pg/pilot_refrsher_vfr_ifr.cfm&g_folder=header_8

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Allen wrote:
> "Newps" > wrote in message
> ...
>> He calls the Forest Service when he is ready, that's how it works. He
>> isn't interested in working all year and all over the country. I
>> think this year he made himself available around June 1st. Not much
>> goes on until about the second week of July.
>
> By your numbers, if I figure correctly, he brings in about $1.6
> million in that 90 day period?
>

That's kind of what I was thinking.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>> "Newps" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> A friend of mine has a Huey that has a Forest Service contract. He
>>> just got released from the fires in Montana last week. He gets
>>> $5000 per day to make the helicopter available and he gets $1900 per
>>> flying hour in addition to the $5K. The duty day is 14 hours of
>>> which you may fly 8 hours. He always flew within 5 minuites of 8
>>> hours. Every 12 days they make you take 2 days off. He had his
>>> Huey up on the fire for 90 days. Out of that money you have to pay
>>> all your expenses. The Forest Service does pick up the insurance
>>> cost.
>> What does operating a Huey cost per hour?
>
> Bell trains in them with I assume and instructor for $995/hour.
>
> http://www.bellhelicopter.com/en/training/index.cfm?content=services/courses/pg/pilot_refrsher_vfr_ifr.cfm&g_folder=header_8

That piece specifies: "Requires customer's aircraft", so I take it that
means the $995 is just the cost of the Bell school and the instructor, not
the actual hourly direct and indirect costs.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Sep 26, 7:46 am, Newps > wrote:
> A friend of mine has a Huey that has a Forest Service contract. He just
> got released from the fires in Montana last week. He gets $5000 per day
> to make the helicopter available and he gets $1900 per flying hour in
> addition to the $5K. The duty day is 14 hours of which you may fly 8
> hours. He always flew within 5 minuites of 8 hours. Every 12 days they
> make you take 2 days off. He had his Huey up on the fire for 90 days.
> Out of that money you have to pay all your expenses. The Forest Service
> does pick up the insurance cost.

Probably because they have to self-insure it. There probably are not a
lot of insurance companies excited about insuring planes flying *into*
fires.

-Robert

[Newps]

Sounds about right. And the Huey isn't one of the more expensive
machines. You should see what the guys in the Sky Crane are raking in.
Of course it costs a hell of a lot more to run that machine too.



Allen wrote:

> "Newps" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>He calls the Forest Service when he is ready, that's how it works. He
>>isn't interested in working all year and all over the country. I think
>>this year he made himself available around June 1st. Not much goes on
>>until about the second week of July.
>
>
> By your numbers, if I figure correctly, he brings in about $1.6 million in
> that 90 day period?
>

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Matt Barrow wrote:
> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
> ...
>> Matt Barrow wrote:
>>> "Newps" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> A friend of mine has a Huey that has a Forest Service contract. He
>>>> just got released from the fires in Montana last week. He gets
>>>> $5000 per day to make the helicopter available and he gets $1900
>>>> per flying hour in addition to the $5K. The duty day is 14 hours
>>>> of which you may fly 8 hours. He always flew within 5 minuites of
>>>> 8 hours. Every 12 days they make you take 2 days off. He had his
>>>> Huey up on the fire for 90 days. Out of that money you have to pay
>>>> all your expenses. The Forest Service does pick up the insurance
>>>> cost.
>>> What does operating a Huey cost per hour?
>>
>> Bell trains in them with I assume and instructor for $995/hour.
>>
>> http://www.bellhelicopter.com/en/training/index.cfm?content=services/courses/pg/pilot_refrsher_vfr_ifr.cfm&g_folder=header_8
>
> That piece specifies: "Requires customer's aircraft", so I take it
> that means the $995 is just the cost of the Bell school and the
> instructor, not the actual hourly direct and indirect costs.

Opps I missed that.