Voltage, EDM-700, trim switch follow-up

[Jay Honeck]

When I started Atlas yesterday I watched the voltage on the JPI and
the EI volt meters. It was pegged right at 14, which my A&P says is
nominal. It drops to 13.4 or 13.5 in cruise, which he also says is
fine.

So, the JPI EDM-700 is now enroute back to JP Instruments in
California. The tech I spoke with said that display problems (missing
LED links) were rather common, and that their turn-around time was
just 3 or 4 days. $150 plus shipping.

The unit is almost five years old, so I guess I shouldn't be too
upset.

Our trim switch, which has been inop in the aft direction for months,
turned out to be a somewhat unusual problem. My A&P took the rocker
switch apart, and found that someone in the distant past had put a
little piece of copper sheet, barely thicker than tin foil, over the
screws that are supposed to actuate the switches, apparently in an
effort to help make more consistent contact.

It may have been part of the original switch assembly, although it's
hard to imagine such a kludge. Anyway, somehow that piece of copper
had shifted, and was no longer making contact with the aft trim
switch. (The trim rocker is actually two switches; one for down, one
for up.) He experimented with various fixes, and ultimately ended up
cutting a razor blade (the only thing we found that wasn't too thick)
to size and replacing the piece of copper. He also discovered that
the aft switch itself was slightly askew in its mounting.

The combination of realigning the switch, and installing the new
"contact piece" made everything work again.

Then, he fixed something that has aggravated me for five years. The
trim switch/push-to-talk mounting plate has had a sheared mounting
screw since Day One. The previous owner had "fixed" this by attaching
the plate with a piece of strong tape. I had done him one better, and
RTV'd the mounting plate to the yoke, which worked perfectly for years
-- until I had cut it off to examine the inop switch.

This was months ago. In the interim, I went back to the "tape" method
-- which didn't hold well or last long. Thus, for the past two
months, using the push-to-talk meant holding the unit with your thumb
whilst pushing the talk button. This often failed, of course,
resulting in the switch plate moving, and us stuttering on the radio.

Yesterday my A&P drilled out the broken screw head and tapped a new
screw. Voila! For the first time since we bought Atlas in 2002, the
yoke is as designed, and everything works as intended.

Best of all, I didn't have to buy a stupid Piper trim switch, to the
tune of over $600.

Today, we're installing the JPI outside air temperature probe that I
purchased last May. We're gonna install it like Jack Allison did,
out in the left under-wing inspection panel -- an elegant install
compared to the usual "drill a big hole through the side of the plane"
method that most people use. It means removing the pilot-side
interior panels -- a giant pain -- but in the end it'll be a lot
nicer.

Of course, until we get the EDM-700 back, the probe won't be
registering much. <g>

Once that's installed, I'm planning to remove the ugly through-the-
windshield temperature probe. I've heard that you can simply put a
piece of masking tape over the hole (on the inside) and fill the hole
with clear RTV (removing the tape after its dry, naturally!) -- but
has anyone here actually done that?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Frank Stutzman[_2_]]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
>
> Today, we're installing the JPI outside air temperature probe that I
> purchased last May. We're gonna install it like Jack Allison did,

> Once that's installed, I'm planning to remove the ugly through-the-
> windshield temperature probe.

I could be wrong, but I don't think the JPI OAT probe is STCed as a
replacement for the factory-though-the-windshield probe.

--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Boise, ID

[Ross]

Jay Honeck wrote:
snip

>
> Once that's installed, I'm planning to remove the ugly through-the-
> windshield temperature probe. I've heard that you can simply put a
> piece of masking tape over the hole (on the inside) and fill the hole
> with clear RTV (removing the tape after its dry, naturally!) -- but
> has anyone here actually done that?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

Jay, the only thing I would say, is to put something like wax paper or
mylar on the inside and tape it in place. The adhesive on the duct tape
may inhibit the cure of the RTV. You may even find a clear acrylic
compound that you can put in there. Also, if you place the mylar on the
outside after you are complete you may get it to feather quite nicely to
the original material.
--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[Newps]

Frank Stutzman wrote:

> Jay Honeck > wrote:
>
>>Today, we're installing the JPI outside air temperature probe that I
>>purchased last May. We're gonna install it like Jack Allison did,
>
>
>>Once that's installed, I'm planning to remove the ugly through-the-
>>windshield temperature probe.
>
>
> I could be wrong, but I don't think the JPI OAT probe is STCed as a
> replacement for the factory-though-the-windshield probe.





That would be hillarious. A ****ty company to start with and then the
probe isn't a legal replacement. Reason #4650 to go with EI.

[Frank Stutzman[_2_]]

Newps > wrote:
> Frank Stutzman wrote:
>
>> I could be wrong, but I don't think the JPI OAT probe is STCed as a
>> replacement for the factory-though-the-windshield probe.
>
>
> That would be hillarious. A ****ty company to start with and then the
> probe isn't a legal replacement. Reason #4650 to go with EI.

I've never read the EI STC so I could be wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised
if the same situation exists with EI.

There are a lot more hoops to jump through in order to STC something as a
replacement (as opposed to being supplimental) for something specified in
the aircrafts type certificate. For something as trivial as an OAT probe,
I could understand a manufacturer not bothering.


--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Boise, ID

[Newps]

Frank Stutzman wrote:

> Newps > wrote:
>
>>Frank Stutzman wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I could be wrong, but I don't think the JPI OAT probe is STCed as a
>>>replacement for the factory-though-the-windshield probe.
>>
>>
>>That would be hillarious. A ****ty company to start with and then the
>>probe isn't a legal replacement. Reason #4650 to go with EI.
>
>
> I've never read the EI STC so I could be wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised
> if the same situation exists with EI.
>
> There are a lot more hoops to jump through in order to STC something as a
> replacement (as opposed to being supplimental) for something specified in
> the aircrafts type certificate. For something as trivial as an OAT probe,
> I could understand a manufacturer not bothering.


I had the EI US8A engine monitor in my 182 and used one of the unused
channels as the OAT, got rid of the juice can OAT. Check the TCDS,
there may be no requirements for an OAT to begin with.

[Frank Stutzman[_2_]]

Newps > wrote:

> I had the EI US8A engine monitor in my 182 and used one of the unused
> channels as the OAT, got rid of the juice can OAT. Check the TCDS,
> there may be no requirements for an OAT to begin with.

Certainly true. As one aviation sage (that I think we both know) is fond
of saying: "It depends!"

--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Boise, ID

[Jay Honeck]

> Jay, the only thing I would say, is to put something like wax paper or
> mylar on the inside and tape it in place. The adhesive on the duct tape
> may inhibit the cure of the RTV. You may even find a clear acrylic
> compound that you can put in there. Also, if you place the mylar on the
> outside after you are complete you may get it to feather quite nicely to
> the original material.

Actually, I think my A&P said he was going to use a clear epoxy of
some sort, as RTV will "weather" over time and eventually fail.

I'll post how it comes out...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Frank Stutzman > wrote:

> Jay Honeck > wrote:
> >
> > Today, we're installing the JPI outside air temperature probe that I
> > purchased last May. We're gonna install it like Jack Allison did,
>
> > Once that's installed, I'm planning to remove the ugly through-the-
> > windshield temperature probe.
>
> I could be wrong, but I don't think the JPI OAT probe is STCed as a
> replacement for the factory-though-the-windshield probe.

I went the field approval route when I replaced mine. The digital OAT probe
I used is PMA'd for a Bonanza but not Piper.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Jack Allison]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> Today, we're installing the JPI outside air temperature probe that I
> purchased last May. We're gonna install it like Jack Allison did,
> out in the left under-wing inspection panel -- an elegant install
> compared to the usual "drill a big hole through the side of the plane"
> method that most people use. It means removing the pilot-side
> interior panels -- a giant pain -- but in the end it'll be a lot
> nicer.

I wish I could take credit...but can't as the shop at our home field did
the install. I sure like it though. I'd much rather have a hole
drilled through an inspection panel under the wing than through the side
of the fuselage.

[Jay Honeck]

> I wish I could take credit...but can't as the shop at our home field did
> the install. I sure like it though. I'd much rather have a hole
> drilled through an inspection panel under the wing than through the side
> of the fuselage.

Well, give them a pat on the back. It's a much nicer, sleeker,
cleaner installation than drilling a big, honkin' 5/8" hole in the
side of my plane!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Paul kgyy]

A wing mounting for the oat probe is good. I don't know what they
were thinking, but whoever installed mine (came with the plane) put it
under the belly where it catches engine exhaust. It's not seriously
in error except on the ground, but I may elect next annual to have it
moved.

[Jay Honeck]

> A wing mounting for the oat probe is good. I don't know what they
> were thinking, but whoever installed mine (came with the plane) put it
> under the belly where it catches engine exhaust. It's not seriously
> in error except on the ground, but I may elect next annual to have it
> moved.

That must've been a bitch to install, too.

JPI called yesterday -- they'll have my EDM-700 repaired and in the
mail today.

They offered to update the unit's software and to install a USB output
(instead of the stupid phono jack) for "only" $268. When I balked at
that, they offered instead to sell me a "little black box" that has a
USB outlet in it, that I could plug into the stupid little phono jack,
for "only" $200.

I declined that, too. For a feature I've used twice in five years, I
figured that was pretty silly. Although I'd probably use it more if
it were "plug & play"...

And the correct landing light blinky thing is also on its way from
California. Maybe by this time next week we'll have everything
done...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Bob Noel]

In article om>,
Jay Honeck > wrote:

> Today, we're installing the JPI outside air temperature probe that I
> purchased last May. We're gonna install it like Jack Allison did,
> out in the left under-wing inspection panel -- an elegant install
> compared to the usual "drill a big hole through the side of the plane"
> method that most people use. It means removing the pilot-side
> interior panels -- a giant pain -- but in the end it'll be a lot
> nicer.

I'm confused by the "drill a big hole through the side of the plane"
comment. When I installed the digital OAT probe in my cherokee
it was just a small hole above (and forward) of the fuel selector
valve. A little awkward to get at, but quick to do. And the probe
is about 1 1/4" long, so I'm not sure what the big deal is.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
> [JPI] offered to update the unit's software and to install a USB output
> (instead of the stupid phono jack) for "only" $268. When I balked at
> that, they offered instead to sell me a "little black box" that has a
> USB outlet in it, that I could plug into the stupid little phono jack,
> for "only" $200.
>
> I declined that, too. For a feature I've used twice in five years, I
> figured that was pretty silly. Although I'd probably use it more if
> it were "plug & play"...

If the phono jack is an RS-232 serial port, you can buy a USB-to-RS232
cable for about $20 online. Then you need an additional $10 worth of
parts and some soldering to make a cable to go from the DB-9 connector
on the USB-RS232 cable to a phono plug. The first time you use it'll be
"plug and pray" (i.e., require tweaking), but after that it should be
easy.

Disclaimer: This is based on experience with ground vehicles and
equipment. I don't have an A&P; I don't even have a TG&Y. Some of
this may not be allowable on a certificated aircraft. Your mileage
may vary.

Matt Roberds

[Ray Andraka]

wrote:

> Jay Honeck > wrote:
>
>>[JPI] offered to update the unit's software and to install a USB output
>>(instead of the stupid phono jack) for "only" $268. When I balked at
>>that, they offered instead to sell me a "little black box" that has a
>>USB outlet in it, that I could plug into the stupid little phono jack,
>>for "only" $200.
>>
>>I declined that, too. For a feature I've used twice in five years, I
>>figured that was pretty silly. Although I'd probably use it more if
>>it were "plug & play"...
>
>
> If the phono jack is an RS-232 serial port, you can buy a USB-to-RS232
> cable for about $20 online. Then you need an additional $10 worth of
> parts and some soldering to make a cable to go from the DB-9 connector
> on the USB-RS232 cable to a phono plug. The first time you use it'll be
> "plug and pray" (i.e., require tweaking), but after that it should be
> easy.
>
> Disclaimer: This is based on experience with ground vehicles and
> equipment. I don't have an A&P; I don't even have a TG&Y. Some of
> this may not be allowable on a certificated aircraft. Your mileage
> may vary.
>
> Matt Roberds
>

The USB download is directly to a USB memory stick, not to a USB port on
a computer. This was actually the one thing I had planned on getting
while at OSH (I did get a good deal on the combination of adding fuel
flow and the USB download by going to OSH).

I got the internal USB download upgrade installed on mine, and I can
tell you it makes a huge huge huge difference. With the USB thingy, you
just plug a memory stick into the jack in your panel. The unit
automatically senses this and goes into program mode directly to the
DUMP ALL/NEW/N question. You push the selection wait for the download
to finish and then it says Wait USB for about 10 seconds and then goes
back to scan and you unplug the stick and throw it back into the flightbag.

The old download is indeed RS232, it comes out to one of those "power
jack" style barrel connector like many of the wall warts would plug
into, not a phone or phono jack. It's an oddball size too. I
originally went the route of the RS232-USB adapter plus the JPI serial
download cable. At first I was using my old Handspring Visor with a
special cable to download the data, but more often than not that didn't
work (I had to make an RS232 adapter that ran off a 9v battery that went
between the handspring interface cable and the JPI download cable). I
also lost data several times because of the handspring.

I later started using my Sony VAIO T350 laptop for the download via one
of those USB to serial port adapters connected to the JPI download
cable. That set up cost me many hours of frustration, because before I
could even start a download I needed to wrestle with Windows XP to get
it to recognize the USB serial adapter, which often took a half hour or
more to do, plus I had to have my laptop with me in order to do the
download in the first place. Before JPI came out with the USB memory
stick download, I had actually considered building something very similar.

I have the recorded data from nearly every hour my engine has run since
its overhaul in 2003 (there were 2 or 3 gaps where I didn't download
data before the memory got full...mostly because of the hassle). Having
that data paid off in a big way when I had the cam go bad in 2005 at 178
hours, after the warranty on the overhaul had expired. With the data, I
was able to show that the engine had been run regularly and had not been
abused. Because I had that data, the engine shop covered the total cost
of teardown and rebuild of the engine with a new cam, new lifters, new
bearings throughout, honed cylinders and new rings, and an exchange
crank case (it was fretting). That would have been a $12K bill had I not
had the JPI data. That data is worth a lot of money when you have a
problem, even if it is just for diagnosing the engine. The recent
history can tell you a lot about a problem.

Anyway, my point is, that USB upgrade was worth every penny when I
consider the convenience now using the dedicated USB memory stick that
lives in my flight bag vs. having to haul my laptop out to the plane
with me and then wresting windows every time to get a successful
download. I chose the internal one because I was done with adapter
cables. Plugging the stick into the panel is a great way to go. I'm
glad I did it.