50% of NAZI oil was supplied from US

[Grantland]

(B2431) lied:

><snip>
>>
>> "Out of 556 important functionaries of the Bolshevik State. . .
>> There Were in 1918-1919: 457 Jews
>> 17 Russians, 2 Ukrainians, 11 Armenians, 35 Letts, 15 Germans, 1
>> Hungarian, 10 Georgians, 3 Poles, 3 Finns, 1 Karaim."
>>
>> The Last Days of the Romanovs, by Robert Wilton. Introduction by Mark
>>Weber. Institute for Historical Review, 1993.
>>
>> "The whole record of Bolshevism in Russia is indelibly impressed with
>> the stamp of alien invasion. The murder of the Tsar, deliberately
>> planned by the Jew Sverdlov (who came to Russia as a paid agent of
>> Germany) and carried out by the Jews Goloshchekin, Syromolotov,
>> Safarov, Voikov and Yurovsky, is the act not of the Russian people,
>> but of this hostile invader."ibid
>
><snip a bunch of drivel>
>
>Even if what you say about Jews being the killers of the Romanovs, a major
>force in the Bolshevik revolution etc. That doesn't have anything to do with
>what was said about Stalin's butchery. Sure Stalin wouldn't have been in power
>if not for the October Revolution etc. but he was also antisemitic, anti God,
>exnophobic, paranoid, sociopathic and a mass murderer in the extreme.
>
>Your claim that the Jews were invaders is false. Jews had been in Eastern
>Europe and Russia for a very long time. The ones who lived in Russia were just
>as Russian as any other citizen.
>
>The source you cited probably finds Jews behind every tree and blames them for
>everything negative he percieves.
>
>Stop blaming the Germans, Jews, foreigners etc. for the slaughter of many
>millions of human beings by the Soviets with Stalin as head. Next you will
>blame the Chinese Communist revolution, the Great Leap Forward and Cultural
>Revolution with the millions of associated deaths on Jews.
>
>Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

Groups search result 4 for ZIONISM versus BOLSHEVISM churchill


Zionism versus Bolshevism.

Illustrated Sunday Herald

February 8, 1920, page 5

Mr Churchill's authorship of this article has been
authenticated by one of the world's leading Churchill
bibliographers, Richard Heinzkill, of the University
of Eugene, Oregon.

A Struggle for the Soul of the Jewish People

By the Rt. Hon. Winston S. Churchill.

SOME people like Jews and some do not; but no
thoughtful man can doubt the fact that they are beyond
all question the most formidable and the most
remarkable race which has ever appeared in the world.

And it may well be that this same astounding race may
at the present time be in the actual process of
producing another system of morals and philosophy, as
malevolent as Christianity was benevolent, which, if
not arrested would shatter irretrievably all that
Christianity has rendered possible. It would almost
seem as if the gospel of Christ and the gospel of
Antichrist were destined to originate among the same
people; and that this mystic and mysterious race had
been chosen for the supreme manifestations, both of
the divine and the diabolical.

The National Russian Jews, in spite of the
disabilities under which they have suffered, have
managed to play an honourable and successful part in
the national life even of Russia. As bankers and
industrialists they have strenuously promoted the
development of Russia's economic resources, and they
were foremost in the creation of those remarkable
organisations, the Russian Co-operative Societies. In
politics their support has been given, for the most
part, to liberal and progressive movements, and they
have been among the staunchest upholders of friendship
with France and Great Britain.



International Jews.

In violent opposition to all this sphere of Jewish
effort rise the schemes of the International Jews. The
adherents of this sinister confederacy are mostly men
reared up among the unhappy populations of countries
where Jews are persecuted on account of their race.
Most, if not all, of them have forsaken the faith of
their forefathers, and divorced from their minds all
spiritual hopes of the next world. This movement among
the Jews is not new. From the days of
Spartacus--Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down
to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa
Luxembourg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United
States), this world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow
of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society
on the basis of arrested development, of envious
malevolence, and impossible equality, has been
steadily growing. It played, as a modern writer, Mrs.
Webster, has so ably shown, a definitely recognisable
part in the tragedy of the French Revolution. It has
been the mainspring of every subversive movement
during the Nineteenth Century; and now at last this
band of extraordinary personalities from the
underworld of the great cities of Europe and America
have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their
heads and have become practically the undisputed
masters of that enormous empire.



Terrorist Jews.

There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the
creation of Bolshevism and an the actual bringing
about of the Russian Revolution: by these
international and for the most part atheistic Jews. It
is certainly a very great one; it probably outweighs
all others. With the notable exception of Lenin, the
majority of the leading figures are Jews. Moreover,
the principal inspiration and driving power comes from
the Jewish leaders. Thus Tchitcherin, a pure Russian,
is eclipsed by his nominal subordinate Litvinoff, and
the influence of Russians like Bukharin or Lunacharski
cannot be compared with the power of Trotsky, or of
Zinovieff, the Dictator of the Red Citadel
(Petrograd), or of Krassin or Radek -- all Jews. In
the Soviet institutions the predominance of Jews is
even more astonishing. And the prominent, if not
indeed the principal, part in the system of terrorism
applied by the Extraordinary Commissions for Combating
Counter-Revolution has been taken by Jews, and in some
notable cases by Jewesses.

The same evil prominence was obtained by Jews in the
brief period of terror during which Bela Kun ruled in
Hungary. The same phenomenon has been presented in
Germany (especially in Bavaria), so far as this
madness has been allowed to prey upon the temporary
prostration of the German people. Although in all
these countries there are many non-Jews every whit as
bad as the worst of the Jewish revolutionaries, the
part played by the latter in proportion to their
numbers in the population is astonishing.



"Protector of the Jews."

Needless to say, the most intense passions of revenge
have been excited in the breasts of the Russian
people. Wherever General Denikin's authority could
reach, protection was always accorded to the Jewish
population, and strenuous efforts were made by his
officers to prevent reprisals and to punish those
guilty of them. So much was this the case that the
Petlurist propaganda against General Denikin denounced
him as the Protector of the Jews. The Misses Healy,
nieces of Mr. Tim Healy, relating their personal
experiences in Kieff, have declared that to their
knowledge on more than one occasion officers who
committed offences against Jews were reduced to the
ranks and sent out of the city to the front. But the
hordes of brigands by whom the whole vast expanse of
the Russian Empire is becoming infested do not
hesitate. to gratify their lust for blood and for
revenge at the expense of the innocent Jewish
population whenever an opportunity occurs. The brigand
Makhno, the hordes of Petlura and of Gregorieff, who
signalised their every success by the most brutal
massacres, everywhere found among the half-stupefied,
half-infuriated population an eager response to
anti-Semitism in its worst and foulest forms. The fact
that in many cases Jewish interests and Jewish places
of worship are excepted by the Bolsheviks from their
universal hostility has tended more and more to
associate the Jewish race in Russia with the
villainies which are now being perpetrated.



A Home for the Jews.

Zionism offers the third sphere to the political
conceptions of the Jewish race. In violent contrast to
international communism.

Zionism has already become a factor in the political
convulsions of Russia, as a powerful competing
influence in Bolshevik circles with the international
communistic system. Nothing could be more significant
than the fury with which Trotsky has attacked the
Zionists generally, and Dr. Weissmann in particular.
The cruel penetration of his mind leaves him in no
doubt that his schemes of a world-wide communistic
State under Jewish domination are directly thwarted
and hindered by this new ideal, which directs the
energies and the hopes of Jews in every land towards a
simpler, a truer, and a far more attainable goal. The
struggle which is now beginning between the Zionist
and Bolshevik Jews is little less than a struggle for
the soul of the Jewish people.

The article is reproduced without editing apart from
typographical


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a direct quote from the correspondence of Karl
Marx with another Jew, Baruch Levy, quoted in the "La
Revue de Paris," June 1, 1928, page 574:

"In the new organization of mankind, the children of
Israel [the Jews] will spread over the whole surface
of the earth and will become everywhere, without
opposition, the leading element, especially if they
can impose upon workings classes the firm control of
some of the them. The governments of the nations
forming the Universal Republic will pass without
effort into the hands of the Jews under the cover of
the victory of the proletariat, private property will
then be suppressed by the rulers of Jewish race, who
will everywhere control public funds. Thus will be
realized the Talmudic promise that, when come the
times of the Messiah, Jews will possess the wealth of
all peoples of the world".


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the Congressional Record, published by the United
States Government Printing Office, Proceedings of the
House, 1957, page 8559 you can read the following:

"Israel Cohen, a leading Communist in England, in his
A Racial Program For the Twentieth Century, wrote [in
1912]:

'We must realize that our Party's most powerful weapon
is racial tension. By propounding into consciousness
of the dark races that for centuries they have have
been oppressed by the whites, we can mould them to the
program of the Communist Party. In America, we will
aim for subtle victory. While inflaming the Negro
minority against the whites , we will instill into the
whites a guilt complex for their exploitation of the
Negroes. We will aid the Negroes to rise to prominence
in every walk of life, in the professions and in the
world of sports and entertainment. With this prestige,
the Negro will be able to intermarry with the whites
and begin a process which will deliver America into
our hands'."

[Grantland]

(B2431) lied:

><snip>
>>
>> "Out of 556 important functionaries of the Bolshevik State. . .
>> There Were in 1918-1919: 457 Jews
>> 17 Russians, 2 Ukrainians, 11 Armenians, 35 Letts, 15 Germans, 1
>> Hungarian, 10 Georgians, 3 Poles, 3 Finns, 1 Karaim."
>>
>> The Last Days of the Romanovs, by Robert Wilton. Introduction by Mark
>>Weber. Institute for Historical Review, 1993.
>>
>> "The whole record of Bolshevism in Russia is indelibly impressed with
>> the stamp of alien invasion. The murder of the Tsar, deliberately
>> planned by the Jew Sverdlov (who came to Russia as a paid agent of
>> Germany) and carried out by the Jews Goloshchekin, Syromolotov,
>> Safarov, Voikov and Yurovsky, is the act not of the Russian people,
>> but of this hostile invader."ibid
>
><snip a bunch of drivel>
>
>Even if what you say about Jews being the killers of the Romanovs, a major
>force in the Bolshevik revolution etc. That doesn't have anything to do with
>what was said about Stalin's butchery. Sure Stalin wouldn't have been in power
>if not for the October Revolution etc. but he was also antisemitic, anti God,
>exnophobic, paranoid, sociopathic and a mass murderer in the extreme.
>
>Your claim that the Jews were invaders is false. Jews had been in Eastern
>Europe and Russia for a very long time. The ones who lived in Russia were just
>as Russian as any other citizen.
>
>The source you cited probably finds Jews behind every tree and blames them for
>everything negative he percieves.
>
>Stop blaming the Germans, Jews, foreigners etc. for the slaughter of many
>millions of human beings by the Soviets with Stalin as head. Next you will
>blame the Chinese Communist revolution, the Great Leap Forward and Cultural
>Revolution with the millions of associated deaths on Jews.
>
>Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

Groups search result 4 for ZIONISM versus BOLSHEVISM churchill


Zionism versus Bolshevism.

Illustrated Sunday Herald

February 8, 1920, page 5

Mr Churchill's authorship of this article has been
authenticated by one of the world's leading Churchill
bibliographers, Richard Heinzkill, of the University
of Eugene, Oregon.

A Struggle for the Soul of the Jewish People

By the Rt. Hon. Winston S. Churchill.

SOME people like Jews and some do not; but no
thoughtful man can doubt the fact that they are beyond
all question the most formidable and the most
remarkable race which has ever appeared in the world.

And it may well be that this same astounding race may
at the present time be in the actual process of
producing another system of morals and philosophy, as
malevolent as Christianity was benevolent, which, if
not arrested would shatter irretrievably all that
Christianity has rendered possible. It would almost
seem as if the gospel of Christ and the gospel of
Antichrist were destined to originate among the same
people; and that this mystic and mysterious race had
been chosen for the supreme manifestations, both of
the divine and the diabolical.

The National Russian Jews, in spite of the
disabilities under which they have suffered, have
managed to play an honourable and successful part in
the national life even of Russia. As bankers and
industrialists they have strenuously promoted the
development of Russia's economic resources, and they
were foremost in the creation of those remarkable
organisations, the Russian Co-operative Societies. In
politics their support has been given, for the most
part, to liberal and progressive movements, and they
have been among the staunchest upholders of friendship
with France and Great Britain.



International Jews.

In violent opposition to all this sphere of Jewish
effort rise the schemes of the International Jews. The
adherents of this sinister confederacy are mostly men
reared up among the unhappy populations of countries
where Jews are persecuted on account of their race.
Most, if not all, of them have forsaken the faith of
their forefathers, and divorced from their minds all
spiritual hopes of the next world. This movement among
the Jews is not new. From the days of
Spartacus--Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down
to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa
Luxembourg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United
States), this world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow
of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society
on the basis of arrested development, of envious
malevolence, and impossible equality, has been
steadily growing. It played, as a modern writer, Mrs.
Webster, has so ably shown, a definitely recognisable
part in the tragedy of the French Revolution. It has
been the mainspring of every subversive movement
during the Nineteenth Century; and now at last this
band of extraordinary personalities from the
underworld of the great cities of Europe and America
have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their
heads and have become practically the undisputed
masters of that enormous empire.



Terrorist Jews.

There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the
creation of Bolshevism and an the actual bringing
about of the Russian Revolution: by these
international and for the most part atheistic Jews. It
is certainly a very great one; it probably outweighs
all others. With the notable exception of Lenin, the
majority of the leading figures are Jews. Moreover,
the principal inspiration and driving power comes from
the Jewish leaders. Thus Tchitcherin, a pure Russian,
is eclipsed by his nominal subordinate Litvinoff, and
the influence of Russians like Bukharin or Lunacharski
cannot be compared with the power of Trotsky, or of
Zinovieff, the Dictator of the Red Citadel
(Petrograd), or of Krassin or Radek -- all Jews. In
the Soviet institutions the predominance of Jews is
even more astonishing. And the prominent, if not
indeed the principal, part in the system of terrorism
applied by the Extraordinary Commissions for Combating
Counter-Revolution has been taken by Jews, and in some
notable cases by Jewesses.

The same evil prominence was obtained by Jews in the
brief period of terror during which Bela Kun ruled in
Hungary. The same phenomenon has been presented in
Germany (especially in Bavaria), so far as this
madness has been allowed to prey upon the temporary
prostration of the German people. Although in all
these countries there are many non-Jews every whit as
bad as the worst of the Jewish revolutionaries, the
part played by the latter in proportion to their
numbers in the population is astonishing.



"Protector of the Jews."

Needless to say, the most intense passions of revenge
have been excited in the breasts of the Russian
people. Wherever General Denikin's authority could
reach, protection was always accorded to the Jewish
population, and strenuous efforts were made by his
officers to prevent reprisals and to punish those
guilty of them. So much was this the case that the
Petlurist propaganda against General Denikin denounced
him as the Protector of the Jews. The Misses Healy,
nieces of Mr. Tim Healy, relating their personal
experiences in Kieff, have declared that to their
knowledge on more than one occasion officers who
committed offences against Jews were reduced to the
ranks and sent out of the city to the front. But the
hordes of brigands by whom the whole vast expanse of
the Russian Empire is becoming infested do not
hesitate. to gratify their lust for blood and for
revenge at the expense of the innocent Jewish
population whenever an opportunity occurs. The brigand
Makhno, the hordes of Petlura and of Gregorieff, who
signalised their every success by the most brutal
massacres, everywhere found among the half-stupefied,
half-infuriated population an eager response to
anti-Semitism in its worst and foulest forms. The fact
that in many cases Jewish interests and Jewish places
of worship are excepted by the Bolsheviks from their
universal hostility has tended more and more to
associate the Jewish race in Russia with the
villainies which are now being perpetrated.



A Home for the Jews.

Zionism offers the third sphere to the political
conceptions of the Jewish race. In violent contrast to
international communism.

Zionism has already become a factor in the political
convulsions of Russia, as a powerful competing
influence in Bolshevik circles with the international
communistic system. Nothing could be more significant
than the fury with which Trotsky has attacked the
Zionists generally, and Dr. Weissmann in particular.
The cruel penetration of his mind leaves him in no
doubt that his schemes of a world-wide communistic
State under Jewish domination are directly thwarted
and hindered by this new ideal, which directs the
energies and the hopes of Jews in every land towards a
simpler, a truer, and a far more attainable goal. The
struggle which is now beginning between the Zionist
and Bolshevik Jews is little less than a struggle for
the soul of the Jewish people.

The article is reproduced without editing apart from
typographical


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a direct quote from the correspondence of Karl
Marx with another Jew, Baruch Levy, quoted in the "La
Revue de Paris," June 1, 1928, page 574:

"In the new organization of mankind, the children of
Israel [the Jews] will spread over the whole surface
of the earth and will become everywhere, without
opposition, the leading element, especially if they
can impose upon workings classes the firm control of
some of the them. The governments of the nations
forming the Universal Republic will pass without
effort into the hands of the Jews under the cover of
the victory of the proletariat, private property will
then be suppressed by the rulers of Jewish race, who
will everywhere control public funds. Thus will be
realized the Talmudic promise that, when come the
times of the Messiah, Jews will possess the wealth of
all peoples of the world".


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the Congressional Record, published by the United
States Government Printing Office, Proceedings of the
House, 1957, page 8559 you can read the following:

"Israel Cohen, a leading Communist in England, in his
A Racial Program For the Twentieth Century, wrote [in
1912]:

'We must realize that our Party's most powerful weapon
is racial tension. By propounding into consciousness
of the dark races that for centuries they have have
been oppressed by the whites, we can mould them to the
program of the Communist Party. In America, we will
aim for subtle victory. While inflaming the Negro
minority against the whites , we will instill into the
whites a guilt complex for their exploitation of the
Negroes. We will aid the Negroes to rise to prominence
in every walk of life, in the professions and in the
world of sports and entertainment. With this prestige,
the Negro will be able to intermarry with the whites
and begin a process which will deliver America into
our hands'."

[Grantland]

(B2431) wrote:

>>
>>Groups search result 4 for ZIONISM versus BOLSHEVISM churchill
>>
>
><snip a whole bunch of stuff which doesn't prove me wrong>
>
>Calling me a liar doesn't change the facts.
>Since you have decided to start name calling instead of debating you are hereby
>dismissed.
>
>b2431, U. S. Air Force, retired

Hey B4231 - how do you know when a Jew is lying?
..
..
..











When it opens its cum-stained mouth. Liar.

Grantland

[Michael Petukhov]

http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=16866&lang=ru

(in russian)

The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.

Michael

[Fred J. McCall]

(Michael Petukhov) wrote:

:http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=16866&lang=ru
:
:(in russian)
:
:The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
:The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
:were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
:the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
:Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
:Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.

That's because we were a NEUTRAL until the end of 1941, Michael. You
do understand what that means, don't you?

Hell, we traded with Stalin, too, and he was at least as big a butcher
as Hitler was.


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn

[Jörg Bihlmayr]

Michael Petukhov schrieb:

> http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=16866&lang=ru
>
> (in russian)
>
> The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
> The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
> were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
> the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
> Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
> Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.

Care to mention, who the other big supplier of oil to Germany until 1941
was?

Jörg

>
>
> Michael

--
Disclaimer:
Sie lasen soeben eine Satire. Die gesamte Handlung ist frei erfunden und
sämtliche Ähnlichkeiten mit lebenden oder toten Personen bestenfalls
zufällig. Der Inhalt mag Ihnen in empörender Weise über Gebühr
unkorrekt, haltlos, schlecht oder auch nur geschmacklos vorgekommen
sein. Wenn dem so ist, dann danken Sie einem höheren Wesen Ihrer Wahl
dafür, daß Sie in einem Land leben wo dergleichen noch veröffentlicht
werden darf, und vermeiden Sie sicherheitshalber jeden weiteren Kontakt
mit dem Autor.
Alle Angaben ohne Gewähr.

[Bill Silvey]

"Michael Petukhov" > wrote in message
om
> Michael

How many tonnes of supplies did the Nazis recieve thanks to the Molotov/von
Ribentropp accord? Soviet supply trains were still going west while the
Nazi war machine was rolling across the Polish frontier, Komrad Mikey.

Nazi officers co-trained with Soviet military officers in the 30's.

Stalin and Hitler planned to carve up Poland, of course.

Then there was the fact that the Reds did nothing while Japan massacred
hundreds of thousands of Chinese in the '30s. Stalin only declared war on
Japan *after* Japan had lost, just to gain Kamchatka. 100% fact.

Face it, your nation committed far worse villiany during the Second World
War than any other nation except perhaps Germany.

--
http://www.delversdungeon.dragonsfoot.org
Remove the X's in my email address to respond.
"Damn you Silvey, and your endless fortunes." - Stephen Weir
I hate furries.

[Keith Willshaw]

"Michael Petukhov" > wrote in message
om...
> http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=16866&lang=ru
>
> (in russian)
>
> The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
> The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
> were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
> the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
> Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
> Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.
>
> Michael

Prior to 1939 the USA was indeed the largest supplier of
oil to Germany, from 1939 to this route was blocked due
to the RN blockade of German ports. From 1939 to the start
of operation Barabarossa the largest supplier of oil to Germany
was the USSR.

After this date Germany was reliant on Rumanian supplies
and synthetic fuel. While some smuggling from Spain via
France may have occurred it was minimal. For one thing
Spains imports were very carefully monitored and for another
the infrastructure meant large scale transportation of oil
was impossible. With Spain having a different railway gauge
and no possibility of water transport oil would have to go by trucks
over the Pyrenees

What is certain is that Germany was desperately short of
oil throughout the latter part of the war and the western allies
launched a bombing campaign that devastated the German
oil industry. Oil was so short by 1944 that draft animals
were used to tow aircraft around the Luftwaffe airfields.

By 1944 less than 20% of the fuel used by the German
military machine came from crude oil, the remainder came
from synthesising oil from coal using the Bergius process
and the Fischer-Tropsch process at plants that were
mostly run by IG Farben

Troll Rating 7/10

A good effort but not good enough.

Keith

[kirill]

"Fred J. McCall" wrote:
>
> (Michael Petukhov) wrote:
>
> :http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=16866&lang=ru
> :
> :(in russian)
> :
> :The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
> :The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
> :were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
> :the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
> :Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
> :Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.
>
> That's because we were a NEUTRAL until the end of 1941, Michael. You
> do understand what that means, don't you?

Dipwad loser. The British weren't neutral and you were their alleged
allies. Retard.

> Hell, we traded with Stalin, too, and he was at least as big a butcher
> as Hitler was.

Another self-appointed expert on nothing spewing drivel. Hitler and his
allies killed 27 million Soviet citizens including 18 million civilians
(the average civilian to soldier death ratio for WWII was 2:1). Basically
all the estimates of deaths in the USSR after the revolution that come
up with the 25 million dead figure include the civil war that killed
10 million people (Stalin wasn't in charge but Lenin and Trotsky were)
and the forced collectivization famines (Ukraine, Kazakhstan and Russia)
where part of the blaim for the famine rests with scorched earth tactics
by farmers resisting expropriation (i.e. burning of crops and killing
of livestock).

Nothing beats Hitler in the number of state crime deaths in the USSR.
Nothing beats Hitler for the number of state crime deaths in the
rest of Europe either.

[kirill]

Jörg Bihlmayr wrote:
>
> Michael Petukhov schrieb:
>
> > http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=16866&lang=ru
> >
> > (in russian)
> >
> > The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
> > The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
> > were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
> > the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
> > Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
> > Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.
>
> Care to mention, who the other big supplier of oil to Germany until 1941
> was?

Pathetic attempt at diversion from a lamer. The USSR was a big supplier
of grain to Germany before 1941. It simply does not compare in the sort
of industrial and oil assistance offered the Nazis by eager western
companies (mainly American ones such as Ford and GM).

[Chad Irby]

In article >,
(Michael Petukhov) wrote:

> http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=16866&lang=ru
>
> (in russian)
>
> The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
> The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
> were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
> the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
> Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
> Atlantic.

Oil smuggling was epidemic across the world during World War II. Spain
was a problem, since it was neutral. Note also that a numer of thigns
were smuggled *out* of Germany during the war.

> All these operations were authorised by US government.

Assumption not proven.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

[Fred J. McCall]

kirill > wrote:

:"Fred J. McCall" wrote:
:>
:> (Michael Petukhov) wrote:
:>
:> :http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=16866&lang=ru
:> :
:> :(in russian)
:> :
:> :The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
:> :The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
:> :were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
:> :the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
:> :Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
:> :Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.
:>
:> That's because we were a NEUTRAL until the end of 1941, Michael. You
:> do understand what that means, don't you?
:
:Dipwad loser. The British weren't neutral and you were their alleged
:allies. Retard.

Go read some history. The US was a neutral until December of 1941.
We were *NOT* British allies at that point in time, alleged or
otherwise.

Go read some history, dumb****.

:> Hell, we traded with Stalin, too, and he was at least as big a butcher
:> as Hitler was.
:
:Another self-appointed expert on nothing spewing drivel. Hitler and his
:allies killed 27 million Soviet citizens including 18 million civilians
:(the average civilian to soldier death ratio for WWII was 2:1).

And the USSR and her allies killed how many German citizens?

Stop snorting all that drain cleaner and get back to me if your head
ever clears.

:Nothing beats Hitler in the number of state crime deaths in the USSR.

Not when you deny your responsibility for wartime deaths but insist
that Hitler be responsible for all of yours.

:Nothing beats Hitler for the number of state crime deaths in the
:rest of Europe either.

You're really too effing stupid to bother with. And I don't mean just
ignorant, although you are. I mean STUPID.

<plonk>


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn

[Ron]

>:Dipwad loser. The British weren't neutral and you were their alleged
>:allies. Retard.
>
>Go read some history. The US was a neutral until December of 1941.
>We were *NOT* British allies at that point in time, alleged or
>otherwise.

I would not go quite that far. We were helping the British in many ways, prior
to Dec 1941


Ron
Pilot/Wildland Firefighter

[Peter H. Granzeau]

On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 14:18:27 -0400, kirill >
wrote:

>> :The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
>> :The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
>> :were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
>> :the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
>> :Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
>> :Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.
>>
>> That's because we were a NEUTRAL until the end of 1941, Michael. You
>> do understand what that means, don't you?
>
>Dipwad loser. The British weren't neutral and you were their alleged
>allies. Retard.

I guess the personal insults are meant to make your arguments true?
Nothing else does. We could not be both an ally of the United Kingdom
and neutral at the same time.

[Eric Pinnell]

On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 14:27:06 GMT, Fred J. McCall
> wrote:


>That's because we were a NEUTRAL until the end of 1941, Michael. You
>do understand what that means, don't you?
>
>Hell, we traded with Stalin, too, and he was at least as big a butcher
>as Hitler was.

Heck, prior to the outbreak of war, the Soviet Union was supplying
Nazi Germany with oil.


Eric Pinnell

(Author, "Claws of The Dragon", "The Omega File")

For a preview, see: http://www.ericpinnell.com and click on "books"

[ZZBunker]

kirill > wrote in message >...
> "Fred J. McCall" wrote:
> >
> > (Michael Petukhov) wrote:
> >
> > :http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=16866&lang=ru
> > :
> > :(in russian)
> > :
> > :The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
> > :The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
> > :were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
> > :the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
> > :Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
> > :Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.
> >
> > That's because we were a NEUTRAL until the end of 1941, Michael. You
> > do understand what that means, don't you?
>
> Dipwad loser. The British weren't neutral and you were their alleged
> allies. Retard.

We were not military allies with Britian until War was declared.
We were suppliers of their some of the military equipment.
We were not allies for the simple reason that Europe screwed us in WWI.

Which is where the saying came from in WWII.
"If you got trenchfoot let the British take care of it",
since the only quicker way to lose a war is
hire British miners and French chefs.

[Keith Willshaw]

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> >:Dipwad loser. The British weren't neutral and you were their alleged
> >:allies. Retard.
> >
> >Go read some history. The US was a neutral until December of 1941.
> >We were *NOT* British allies at that point in time, alleged or
> >otherwise.
>
> I would not go quite that far. We were helping the British in many ways,
prior
> to Dec 1941
>

Indeed the US was far from neutral by that time but exports
of US oil to Germany stopped in 1939.

Keith

[BUFDRVR]

> Heck, prior to the outbreak of war, the Soviet Union was supplying
>Nazi Germany with oil.

Among other things. In fact as German soliders rolled east on railway cars in
preparation for BARBAROSA, Soviet rail cars were flowing west full of material
for Nazi Germany.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[John Mullen]

"BUFDRVR" > wrote in message
...
> > Heck, prior to the outbreak of war, the Soviet Union was supplying
> >Nazi Germany with oil.
>
> Among other things. In fact as German soliders rolled east on railway cars
in
> preparation for BARBAROSA, Soviet rail cars were flowing west full of
material
> for Nazi Germany.

So to speak. Although, in fact they had different rail gauges so that isn't
literally true..

John

[ZZBunker]

(Michael Petukhov) wrote in message >...
> http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=16866&lang=ru
>
> (in russian)
>
> The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
> The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
> were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
> the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
> Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
> Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.

You are obviously lying. Since submarines don't even don't
use oil that is made by mass marketers.


> Michael

[Michael Mcneil]

If you must feed them:

Change the title; remove cross postings; remove all reference to them;
write a completely uninflamatory few lines that touch -as this does,
only tangentially what they initiated; make salient counter arguments
about almost irrelevant topics and then bring it around in later
messages to what the fool was talking about. That way he will have to
lose his advert, the title of the thread.

What you must aim for is removing his name and fame. Next remove his
topic then bring it back as a rebuff by making a statement that answered
his original post. Better still, ignore him.


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

[Ron]

(Michael Petukhov) wrote in message
>...
>> http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=16866&lang=ru
>>
>> (in russian)
>>
>> The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
>> The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
>> were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
>> the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
>> Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
>> Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.

Oh I guess those German submarines must have stopped into US Harbors during
WW2, to replenish oil supplies, after raiding our convoys.

You make some silly posts, but this gets up there.

It isnt even accurate to call them Nazi subs either, since the German Navy was
not a big fan of the Nazis at all.


Ron
Pilot/Wildland Firefighter

[Rick]

ZZBunker wrote:

> You are obviously lying. Since submarines don't even don't
> use oil that is made by mass marketers.


Pray tell just what kind of fuel did Diesel boats use?

Rick

[Jim Atkins]

I think a lot of Stalin's death toll was due to things like purges, show
trials, engineered famines in the Ukraine, and other apparently acceptable
forms of behavior. Face it- totalitarian scum is totalitarian scum.

--
Jim Atkins
Twentynine Palms CA USA

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."
- Groucho Marx

[captain!]

and what should we do with spammers mike?

"Michael Mcneil" > wrote in message
news:258d1aa03d311c592a645884b7a884ac.45219@mygate .mailgate.org...
> If you must feed them:
>
> Change the title; remove cross postings; remove all reference to them;
> write a completely uninflamatory few lines that touch -as this does,
> only tangentially what they initiated; make salient counter arguments
> about almost irrelevant topics and then bring it around in later
> messages to what the fool was talking about. That way he will have to
> lose his advert, the title of the thread.
>
> What you must aim for is removing his name and fame. Next remove his
> topic then bring it back as a rebuff by making a statement that answered
> his original post. Better still, ignore him.
>
>
> --
> Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

[The Enlightenment]

kirill > wrote in message >...
> "Fred J. McCall" wrote:
> >
> > (Michael Petukhov) wrote:
> >
> > :http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=16866&lang=ru
> > :
SNIP
> Another self-appointed expert on nothing spewing drivel. Hitler and his
> allies killed 27 million Soviet citizens including 18 million civilians
> (the average civilian to soldier death ratio for WWII was 2:1).

Now factor in the millions the Bolshevic Demographers conveniently
blamed on the Germans to exonerate themselves politically.



> Basically
> all the estimates of deaths in the USSR after the revolution that come
> up with the 25 million dead figure include the civil war that killed
> 10 million people (Stalin wasn't in charge but Lenin and Trotsky were)

Stalin started running things in 1932 and he probably din't kill as
many as his predecessors.

After emigrating to the U.S., Rapoport visited the Ukraine in November
of 1934, less then one year after the famine created by Soviet
government
actions that killed 4 million Ukrainian peasants (Werth 1999, 159ff ).
The
peasants had resisted being forced to join collective farms and were
aided
by local Ukrainian authorities. The response of the central government
was
to arrest farmers and confiscate all grain, including reserves to be
used
for next year's harvest. Since they had no food, the peasants
attempted to
leave for the cities but were prevented from doing so by the
government. The
peasants starved by the millions. Parents abandoned starving children
before
starving themselves; cannibalism was rampant; remaining workers were
tortured to force them to hand over any remaining food. Methods of
torture
included the 'cold' method where the victim was stripped bare and left
out
in the cold, stark naked. Sometimes whole brigades of collective
workers
were treated in this fashion. In the 'hot' method, the feet and the
bottom
of the skirt of female workers were doused with gasoline and then set
alight. The flames were put out, and the process was repeated (Werth
1999,
166). During the period when the famine claimed a total of 6 million
lives
throughout the country, the government exported eighteen million
hundredweight of grain in order to obtain money for industrialization.

These horrors are unmentioned by Rapoport in his account of his
1934
visit. Instead, he paints a very positive portrait of life in the
Ukraine
under the Soviets. Life is good for the Jews. He is pleased that
Yiddish
culture is accepted not only by Jews but by non-Jews as well, a clear
indication of the privileged status of Judaism in the Soviet Union
during
this period. (For example, he recounts an incident in which a
Ukrainian
worker read a story in Yiddish to the other workers, Jews and non-Jews
alike.) Young Jews were taking advantage of new opportunities not only
in
Yiddish culture but "in the economy, in the government, in
participation in
the general life of the country" (Kann 1981, 120). Older Jews
complained
that the government was anti-religious, and young Jews complained that
Leon
Trotsky, "the national pride of the Jewish people," had been removed.
But
the message to American radicals was upbeat: "It was sufficient to
learn
that the Jewish young people were in higher positions and embraced the
Soviet system" (Kann 1981, 122). Rapoport sees the world through
Jewish-only
eyes. The massive suffering in which a total of nearly 20 million
Soviet
citizens had already died because of government actions is irrelevant.
http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/Preface.htm


> and the forced collectivization famines (Ukraine, Kazakhstan and Russia)
> where part of the blaim for the famine rests with scorched earth tactics
> by farmers resisting expropriation (i.e. burning of crops and killing
> of livestock).

>
> Nothing beats Hitler in the number of state crime deaths in the USSR.
> Nothing beats Hitler for the number of state crime deaths in the
> rest of Europe either.


Rubbish. Tell that to the Polish officers burried in Katyn.

Tell that to the number of people the Communist murdered by forcing
them at gun point to "attack" unarmed into german machine guns.

Tell that to the millions murdered by the ethnic-revolution that
Bolshevism really was and transfered on the Nazis.

The "Black Book of Communism" Certainly doe not agree with you.
Naturaly a 'state crime' as you quote above covers normal combat
(albeit on a massive scale) much as radical feminist overcome with
zeal occaisionaly turn unwanted touching into sexual assault and turn
sexaul assault into rape.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

This will probably appear in the wrong place thanks to a bad
news server.

Michael Petukhov wrote in message ...
>http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=16866&lang=ru
>
>(in russian)
>
>The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
>The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
>were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
>the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
>Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
>Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.

I see someone is writing bad fiction and others are trying
to believe it.

The allied air offensive against Germany's oil supplies
means the German oil situation has been well documented.

Germany's oil imports, crude oil, fuels and lubricants, 1933
2,703,000, 1934 3,158,000, 1935 3,792,000, 1936
4,216,000, 1937 4,307,000, 1938 4,967,000 metric tons.
The increase is due to the economic recovery and stockpiling.

Germany had 2,134,000 metric tons of oil stocks on 1 August
1939, excluding the west fortification zone. Oil production in
greater Germany 1940 to 1944 was 29,482,000 metric tons,
this includes things like liquid gases.

If you just want to go on the avgas, motor vehicle fuel and diesel
oil then stocks as of September 1939 were 1,241,000 tons,
production and imports 1940 to 1944 were 23,975,000 metric
tons of which 7,492,000 metric tons were imports. Note imports
include over 1,000,000 tons of captured fuel and fuel sent directly
from Romania to the German army in the East.

Rather hard for the US to supply half of Germany's oil needs
unless there were large multi million ton imports in the 1937
to 1939 period, which clearly did not happen as the import
figures and 1939 fuel reserves figures show. Diesel production
1940 to 1944 amounted to 5,427,000 tons, imports another
2,327,000 tons, stocks as of September 1939 298,000 tons.
The U-boats were the big users of diesel, again rather hard
for the US to supply 100% of the U-boat fuel.

It would be good to know which country's ships were being
used to transport the oil, the allies were always short of
tankers until very late in the war. Spain in 1939 had some
16 tankers, or 86,000 Gross registered tons (ships of
1,600 GRT or larger).

In the time period 1 September 1939 to 22 June 1941 the
USSR supplied over 1,000,000 tons of petroleum products
to Germany out of over 3,500,000 tons of supplies. Then
add another 380,000 tons from Japan and 80,000 tons
from Afghanistan and Iran the USSR allowed to be
shipped through the USSR. See the Economic Blockade
by W N Medlicott, which goes into great detail about
Germany's imports from neutral countries, it includes
detailed tables from Sweden, Turkey, Spain, Portugal,
French North Africa and the USSR. It goes into the
negotiations the allies undertook with the neutrals to
minimise their trade with Germany and ensure they were
not used for blockade breaking.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

In article >,
(Ron) wrote:

> Oh I guess those German submarines must have stopped into US Harbors during
> WW2, to replenish oil supplies, after raiding our convoys.

try the canary islands.

[Keith Willshaw]

"John Mullen" > wrote in message
...
> "BUFDRVR" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > Heck, prior to the outbreak of war, the Soviet Union was supplying
> > >Nazi Germany with oil.
> >
> > Among other things. In fact as German soliders rolled east on railway
cars
> in
> > preparation for BARBAROSA, Soviet rail cars were flowing west full of
> material
> > for Nazi Germany.
>
> So to speak. Although, in fact they had different rail gauges so that
isn't
> literally true..
>

The gauge change happened at the Russian frontier. Since the
border between Nazi and Soviet territory ran through the
centre of Poland it is literally the case that trains packed with
Soviet material were heading West even as the Germans invaded.

Keith

[ZZBunker]

Rick > wrote in message t>...
> ZZBunker wrote:
>
> > You are obviously lying. Since submarines don't even don't
> > use oil that is made by mass marketers.
>
>
> Pray tell just what kind of fuel did Diesel boats use?

Did I say fuel? No. Which is you look closely
you'll notice that all NAZI subs are now
in thier in own special parking lot,
1,000 fathoms down and just a slight hard right
from the street called Reality.


>
> Rick

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
kirill > wrote:

> "Fred J. McCall" wrote:
> >
> > (Michael Petukhov) wrote:
> >
> > :http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=16866&lang=ru
> > :
> > :(in russian)
> > :
> > :The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
> > :The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
> > :were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
> > :the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
> > :Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
> > :Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.
> >
> > That's because we were a NEUTRAL until the end of 1941, Michael. You
> > do understand what that means, don't you?
>
> Dipwad loser. The British weren't neutral and you were their alleged
> allies. Retard.

Kirill, until December of 1941, the U.S. was officially neutral. We not
legally their allies, requiring convenient fictions like Lend Lease, to
get around the official neutrality.

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
kirill > wrote:

> JÜrg Bihlmayr wrote:
> >
> > Michael Petukhov schrieb:
> >
> > > http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=16866&lang=ru
> > >
> > > (in russian)
> > >
> > > The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
> > > The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
> > > were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
> > > the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
> > > Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
> > > Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.
> >
> > Care to mention, who the other big supplier of oil to Germany until 1941
> > was?
>
> Pathetic attempt at diversion from a lamer. The USSR was a big supplier
> of grain to Germany before 1941. It simply does not compare in the sort
> of industrial and oil assistance offered the Nazis by eager western
> companies (mainly American ones such as Ford and GM).

Yeah, you guys (Soviets) were just the main supplier of oil to Germany
from the time the U.S. entered the war until Barbarossa.

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
(Ron) wrote:

> >:Dipwad loser. The British weren't neutral and you were their alleged
> >:allies. Retard.
> >
> >Go read some history. The US was a neutral until December of 1941.
> >We were *NOT* British allies at that point in time, alleged or
> >otherwise.
>
> I would not go quite that far. We were helping the British in many ways,
> prior to Dec 1941

Generally using fictions such as Lend Lease to get around the official
neutral position.

[PosterBoy]

"ZZBunker" > wrote in message
om...
> Rick > wrote in message
t>...
> > ZZBunker wrote:
> >
> > > You are obviously lying. Since submarines don't even don't
> > > use oil that is made by mass marketers.
> >
> >
> > Pray tell just what kind of fuel did Diesel boats use?
>
> Did I say fuel? No. Which is you look closely
> you'll notice that all NAZI subs are now
> in thier in own special parking lot,
> 1,000 fathoms down and just a slight hard right
> from the street called Reality.

You are aware, are you not, that there are many (perhaps dozens?) of
WWII U-Boats above sea level and on display in various spots on Planet
Earth? That...is Reality.

Cheers.

[B2431]

>Date: 10/17/2003 12:48 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >

<snip>
>
> "Out of 556 important functionaries of the Bolshevik State. . .
> There Were in 1918-1919: 457 Jews
> 17 Russians, 2 Ukrainians, 11 Armenians, 35 Letts, 15 Germans, 1
> Hungarian, 10 Georgians, 3 Poles, 3 Finns, 1 Karaim."
>
> The Last Days of the Romanovs, by Robert Wilton. Introduction by Mark
>Weber. Institute for Historical Review, 1993.
>
> "The whole record of Bolshevism in Russia is indelibly impressed with
> the stamp of alien invasion. The murder of the Tsar, deliberately
> planned by the Jew Sverdlov (who came to Russia as a paid agent of
> Germany) and carried out by the Jews Goloshchekin, Syromolotov,
> Safarov, Voikov and Yurovsky, is the act not of the Russian people,
> but of this hostile invader."ibid

<snip a bunch of drivel>

Even if what you say about Jews being the killers of the Romanovs, a major
force in the Bolshevik revolution etc. That doesn't have anything to do with
what was said about Stalin's butchery. Sure Stalin wouldn't have been in power
if not for the October Revolution etc. but he was also antisemitic, anti God,
exnophobic, paranoid, sociopathic and a mass murderer in the extreme.

Your claim that the Jews were invaders is false. Jews had been in Eastern
Europe and Russia for a very long time. The ones who lived in Russia were just
as Russian as any other citizen.

The source you cited probably finds Jews behind every tree and blames them for
everything negative he percieves.

Stop blaming the Germans, Jews, foreigners etc. for the slaughter of many
millions of human beings by the Soviets with Stalin as head. Next you will
blame the Chinese Communist revolution, the Great Leap Forward and Cultural
Revolution with the millions of associated deaths on Jews.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[Michael Petukhov]

Jörg Bihlmayr > wrote in message >...
> Michael Petukhov schrieb:
>
> > http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=16866&lang=ru
> >
> > (in russian)
> >
> > The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
> > The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
> > were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
> > the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
> > Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
> > Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.
>
> Care to mention, who the other big supplier of oil to Germany until 1941
> was?
>
> Jörg

Do you mean USSR? Sure it was suppling some products including oil.
Unfortunately the article does not report actual numbers which
as far as I remember were within 1-2 mil tons/year in 40. I think
it is due to the subject of the article, the US supply to NAZI
germany. Although there are data on Germany oil balance by the
end of 1941:

Germany total oil demand: 16 mil tons/year
Strategic reserve: 10 mil tons/year
Germany production of synthetic petrolium: 5 mil tons/year
Import from Rumania and Hungary: 6 mil. tons/year
Import from S.Africa via Mediterranean ports: 3 mil tons/year
Import via Standard and Davis: 6 mil tons/year
plus unaccounted refuelling of german subs in South America ports
by EuroTank company (Davis)

Nobody says that USSR was innocent of NAZI collaboration in 39-41.
But US was no better than USSR in that respect. Moreover the fact
is that Hitler was receiving the lion's share of the oil form
western, mainly US, sources in the period of 37-44.

Michael
>
> >
> >
> > Michael
>
> --
> Disclaimer:
> Sie lasen soeben eine Satire. Die gesamte Handlung ist frei erfunden und
> sämtliche Ähnlichkeiten mit lebenden oder toten Personen bestenfalls
> zufällig. Der Inhalt mag Ihnen in empörender Weise über Gebühr
> unkorrekt, haltlos, schlecht oder auch nur geschmacklos vorgekommen
> sein. Wenn dem so ist, dann danken Sie einem höheren Wesen Ihrer Wahl
> dafür, daß Sie in einem Land leben wo dergleichen noch veröffentlicht
> werden darf, und vermeiden Sie sicherheitshalber jeden weiteren Kontakt
> mit dem Autor.
> Alle Angaben ohne Gewähr.

[Michael Petukhov]

"Michael Mcneil" > wrote in message gate.org>...
> If you must feed them:
>
> Change the title; remove cross postings; remove all reference to them;
> write a completely uninflamatory few lines that touch -as this does,
> only tangentially what they initiated; make salient counter arguments
> about almost irrelevant topics and then bring it around in later
> messages to what the fool was talking about. That way he will have to
> lose his advert, the title of the thread.
>
> What you must aim for is removing his name and fame. Next remove his
> topic then bring it back as a rebuff by making a statement that answered
> his original post. Better still, ignore him.

Hm. It will not work. Simply because I post interesting things.
even you cannot ignore it.

Michael

[Peter Kemp]

On or about Sun, 19 Oct 2003 23:49:28 -0700, Steve Hix
> allegedly uttered:

>In article >,
> kirill > wrote:
>
>> JÜrg Bihlmayr wrote:
>> >
>> > Michael Petukhov schrieb:
>> >
>> > > http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=16866&lang=ru
>> > >
>> > > (in russian)
>> > >
>> > > The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
>> > > The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
>> > > were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
>> > > the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
>> > > Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
>> > > Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.
>> >
>> > Care to mention, who the other big supplier of oil to Germany until 1941
>> > was?
>>
>> Pathetic attempt at diversion from a lamer. The USSR was a big supplier
>> of grain to Germany before 1941. It simply does not compare in the sort
>> of industrial and oil assistance offered the Nazis by eager western
>> companies (mainly American ones such as Ford and GM).
>
>Yeah, you guys (Soviets) were just the main supplier of oil to Germany
>from the time the U.S. entered the war until Barbarossa.

Err, wasn't Barbarossa (June 22 1941) *before* the entry of the US
(December 7 1941)?

---
Peter Kemp

Life is short - Drink Faster

[John Mullen]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
...
>
> "John Mullen" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "BUFDRVR" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > > Heck, prior to the outbreak of war, the Soviet Union was supplying
> > > >Nazi Germany with oil.
> > >
> > > Among other things. In fact as German soliders rolled east on railway
> cars
> > in
> > > preparation for BARBAROSA, Soviet rail cars were flowing west full of
> > material
> > > for Nazi Germany.
> >
> > So to speak. Although, in fact they had different rail gauges so that
> isn't
> > literally true..
> >
>
> The gauge change happened at the Russian frontier. Since the
> border between Nazi and Soviet territory ran through the
> centre of Poland it is literally the case that trains packed with
> Soviet material were heading West even as the Germans invaded.

ISWYM. Misread the previous message, sorry.

John

[ZZBunker]

"PosterBoy" > wrote in message news:<UBMkb.133877$pl3.9483@pd7tw3no>...
> "ZZBunker" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Rick > wrote in message
> t>...
> > > ZZBunker wrote:
> > >
> > > > You are obviously lying. Since submarines don't even don't
> > > > use oil that is made by mass marketers.
> > >
> > >
> > > Pray tell just what kind of fuel did Diesel boats use?
> >
> > Did I say fuel? No. Which is you look closely
> > you'll notice that all NAZI subs are now
> > in thier in own special parking lot,
> > 1,000 fathoms down and just a slight hard right
> > from the street called Reality.
>
> You are aware, are you not, that there are many (perhaps dozens?) of
> WWII U-Boats above sea level and on display in various spots on Planet
> Earth? That...is Reality.

Yes I am aware of that. amd I'm also aware of the
realiy tidbit, that just about all of those
U-Boats are *Hilter's* doing, not the German *Navy's*.
Since for the most part, the German *Navy* didn't even
want those U-Boats.



> Cheers.

[Keith Willshaw]

> wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> (Ron) wrote:
>
> > Oh I guess those German submarines must have stopped into US Harbors
during
> > WW2, to replenish oil supplies, after raiding our convoys.
>
> try the canary islands.

Try again

Much to the displeasure of the Germans the Spaniards interned
a number of U-boat crews that turned up in the Canary Islands and
they were desperately short of fuel themselves

see
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/wwii/spain/sp16.htm

You'll find that oil imports to Spain were only allowed
on the basis that Spain distance itself from the Axis.

The only real concession the spaniards made was agreeing
to turn a blind eye to the presence of german tankers in
Spanish territorial waters.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/wwii/spain/sp10.htm
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/wwii/spain/sp11.htm

Keith

[yp11]

On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 02:57:04 GMT, "captain! - the village idiot"
> wrote:

>and what should we do with spammers mike?
>
Another gem from the biggest spammer in this group - captain, the
village idiot.

[Frank Liu]

So admit you're a troll? Okay...

Frank Liu

"Michael Petukhov" > wrote in message
om...
> "Michael Mcneil" > wrote in message
gate.org>...
> > If you must feed them:
> >
> > Change the title; remove cross postings; remove all reference to them;
> > write a completely uninflamatory few lines that touch -as this does,
> > only tangentially what they initiated; make salient counter arguments
> > about almost irrelevant topics and then bring it around in later
> > messages to what the fool was talking about. That way he will have to
> > lose his advert, the title of the thread.
> >
> > What you must aim for is removing his name and fame. Next remove his
> > topic then bring it back as a rebuff by making a statement that answered
> > his original post. Better still, ignore him.
>
> Hm. It will not work. Simply because I post interesting things.
> even you cannot ignore it.
>
> Michael

[Peter H. Granzeau]

On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 23:49:28 -0700, Steve Hix
> wrote:

>Yeah, you guys (Soviets) were just the main supplier of oil to Germany
>from the time the U.S. entered the war until Barbarossa.

What kind of time warp was this?

Operation Barbarossa kicked off on 22 June 1941.

The USA entered the war against Germany on 11 December 1941 (when
Germany declared war on the USA).

[Michael Petukhov]

"Geoffrey Sinclair" > wrote in message >...
> This will probably appear in the wrong place thanks to a bad
> news server.
>
> Michael Petukhov wrote in message ...
> >http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=16866&lang=ru
> >
> >(in russian)
> >
> >The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
> >The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
> >were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
> >the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
> >Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
> >Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.
>
> I see someone is writing bad fiction and others are trying
> to believe it.
>
> The allied air offensive against Germany's oil supplies
> means the German oil situation has been well documented.
>
> Germany's oil imports, crude oil, fuels and lubricants, 1933
> 2,703,000, 1934 3,158,000, 1935 3,792,000, 1936
> 4,216,000, 1937 4,307,000, 1938 4,967,000 metric tons.
> The increase is due to the economic recovery and stockpiling.
>
> Germany had 2,134,000 metric tons of oil stocks on 1 August
> 1939, excluding the west fortification zone. Oil production in
> greater Germany 1940 to 1944 was 29,482,000 metric tons,
> this includes things like liquid gases.

In 30 mil tons/5= 6 mil tons/year in agreement with data present
in the article.

>
> If you just want to go on the avgas, motor vehicle fuel and diesel
> oil then stocks as of September 1939 were 1,241,000 tons,
> production and imports 1940 to 1944 were 23,975,000 metric
> tons of which 7,492,000 metric tons were imports.

So 24 or 7.5 mil tons?

> Note imports
> include over 1,000,000 tons of captured fuel and fuel sent directly
> from Romania to the German army in the East.

Romania was German ally till 44. why to capture?

>
> Rather hard for the US to supply half of Germany's oil needs
> unless there were large multi million ton imports in the 1937
> to 1939 period, which clearly did not happen as the import
> figures and 1939 fuel reserves figures show.

Which import? US one? Maybe. How about Mexican, Venezuelian,
S. African export under Standard oil control?

> Diesel production
> 1940 to 1944 amounted to 5,427,000 tons, imports another
> 2,327,000 tons, stocks as of September 1939 298,000 tons.
> The U-boats were the big users of diesel, again rather hard
> for the US to supply 100% of the U-boat fuel.

The article says that above mentioned oil was mainly supplied to
Canaries where it was partly refined partly reloaded to Spanish
tankers to be delivered in Mediterian ports under germany control.

>
> It would be good to know which country's ships were being
> used to transport the oil, the allies were always short of
> tankers until very late in the war. Spain in 1939 had some
> 16 tankers, or 86,000 Gross registered tons (ships of
> 1,600 GRT or larger).

Well the artcile says that on the route from Americas to Canaries
the Standard's tankers fleet under Panama flags were used. after
that on the way from canaries to mediterian ports spanish tankers
were used. The numbers fits. one week round trip 86000 tons*52=
4.5 mil tons/year plus german sub fleet refuelling in canaries
until 44 at least 1 mil tons /year plus unknown amount of
refulling of german subs in bases of S. America organized by
Davis oil company.

All around import from US companies 6 mil tons/year.

>
> In the time period 1 September 1939 to 22 June 1941 the
> USSR supplied over 1,000,000 tons of petroleum products
> to Germany out of over 3,500,000 tons of supplies. Then
> add another 380,000 tons from Japan and 80,000 tons
> from Afghanistan and Iran the USSR allowed to be
> shipped through the USSR. See the Economic Blockade
> by W N Medlicott, which goes into great detail about
> Germany's imports from neutral countries, it includes
> detailed tables from Sweden, Turkey, Spain, Portugal,
> French North Africa and the USSR. It goes into the
> negotiations the allies undertook with the neutrals to
> minimise their trade with Germany and ensure they were
> not used for blockade breaking.

Indeed. However none after june 22, 1941 form USSR
while Spanish oil was in fact 100% US one.

Michael
>
> Geoffrey Sinclair
> Remove the nb for email.

[ZZBunker]

kirill > wrote in message >...
> "Fred J. McCall" wrote:
> >
> > (Michael Petukhov) wrote:
> >
> > :http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=16866&lang=ru
> > :
> > :(in russian)
> > :
> > :The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
> > :The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
> > :were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
> > :the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
> > :Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
> > :Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.
> >
> > That's because we were a NEUTRAL until the end of 1941, Michael. You
> > do understand what that means, don't you?
>
> Dipwad loser. The British weren't neutral and you were their alleged
> allies. Retard.
>
> > Hell, we traded with Stalin, too, and he was at least as big a butcher
> > as Hitler was.
>
> Another self-appointed expert on nothing spewing drivel. Hitler and his
> allies killed 27 million Soviet citizens including 18 million civilians
> (the average civilian to soldier death ratio for WWII was 2:1). Basically
> all the estimates of deaths in the USSR after the revolution that come
> up with the 25 million dead figure include the civil war that killed
> 10 million people (Stalin wasn't in charge but Lenin and Trotsky were)
> and the forced collectivization famines (Ukraine, Kazakhstan and Russia)
> where part of the blaim for the famine rests with scorched earth tactics
> by farmers resisting expropriation (i.e. burning of crops and killing
> of livestock).
>
> Nothing beats Hitler in the number of state crime deaths in the USSR.
> Nothing beats Hitler for the number of state crime deaths in the
> rest of Europe either.

Hilter doesn't even compare to Napeleon in the
number of state crimes deaths in the USSR.
That is due to the condition that is you ever
read any of Hilters writings, you would obviously
notice that the very last thing Hilter
ever seemed to worry about in his life
were the rantings of Commies, and their so-called state.

[B2431]

>From: (Grantland)
>Date: 10/17/2003 9:23 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
(B2431) lied:
>
>><snip>
>>>
>>> "Out of 556 important functionaries of the Bolshevik State. . .
>>> There Were in 1918-1919: 457 Jews
>>> 17 Russians, 2 Ukrainians, 11 Armenians, 35 Letts, 15 Germans, 1
>>> Hungarian, 10 Georgians, 3 Poles, 3 Finns, 1 Karaim."
>>>
>>> The Last Days of the Romanovs, by Robert Wilton. Introduction by Mark
>>>Weber. Institute for Historical Review, 1993.
>>>
>>> "The whole record of Bolshevism in Russia is indelibly impressed with
>>> the stamp of alien invasion. The murder of the Tsar, deliberately
>>> planned by the Jew Sverdlov (who came to Russia as a paid agent of
>>> Germany) and carried out by the Jews Goloshchekin, Syromolotov,
>>> Safarov, Voikov and Yurovsky, is the act not of the Russian people,
>>> but of this hostile invader."ibid
>>
>><snip a bunch of drivel>
>>
>>Even if what you say about Jews being the killers of the Romanovs, a major
>>force in the Bolshevik revolution etc. That doesn't have anything to do with
>>what was said about Stalin's butchery. Sure Stalin wouldn't have been in
>power
>>if not for the October Revolution etc. but he was also antisemitic, anti
>God,
>>exnophobic, paranoid, sociopathic and a mass murderer in the extreme.
>>
>>Your claim that the Jews were invaders is false. Jews had been in Eastern
>>Europe and Russia for a very long time. The ones who lived in Russia were
>just
>>as Russian as any other citizen.
>>
>>The source you cited probably finds Jews behind every tree and blames them
>for
>>everything negative he percieves.
>>
>>Stop blaming the Germans, Jews, foreigners etc. for the slaughter of many
>>millions of human beings by the Soviets with Stalin as head. Next you will
>>blame the Chinese Communist revolution, the Great Leap Forward and Cultural
>>Revolution with the millions of associated deaths on Jews.
>>
>>Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired
>
>Groups search result 4 for ZIONISM versus BOLSHEVISM churchill
>

<snip a whole bunch of stuff which doesn't prove me wrong>

Calling me a liar doesn't change the facts.
Since you have decided to start name calling instead of debating you are hereby
dismissed.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
Peter Kemp <peter_n_kempathotmaildotcom@> wrote:

> On or about Sun, 19 Oct 2003 23:49:28 -0700, Steve Hix
> > allegedly uttered:
>
> >In article >,
> > kirill > wrote:
> >
> >> JÜrg Bihlmayr wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Michael Petukhov schrieb:
> >> >
> >> > > http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=16866&lang=ru
> >> > >
> >> > > (in russian)
> >> > >
> >> > > The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
> >> > > The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
> >> > > were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
> >> > > the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
> >> > > Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
> >> > > Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.
> >> >
> >> > Care to mention, who the other big supplier of oil to Germany until 1941
> >> > was?
> >>
> >> Pathetic attempt at diversion from a lamer. The USSR was a big supplier
> >> of grain to Germany before 1941. It simply does not compare in the sort
> >> of industrial and oil assistance offered the Nazis by eager western
> >> companies (mainly American ones such as Ford and GM).
> >
> >Yeah, you guys (Soviets) were just the main supplier of oil to Germany
> >from the time the U.S. entered the war until Barbarossa.
>
> Err, wasn't Barbarossa (June 22 1941) *before* the entry of the US
> (December 7 1941)?

Dang...of course you're right.

....from the beginning of the war in late '39 until Barbarossa. U.S. had
quit most fuel exports to Germany when the war began in Europe.

[Steve Hix]

In article <Q0Wkb.29034$N94.9011@lakeread02>,
Peter H. Granzeau > wrote:

> On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 23:49:28 -0700, Steve Hix
> > wrote:
>
> >Yeah, you guys (Soviets) were just the main supplier of oil to Germany
> >from the time the U.S. entered the war until Barbarossa.
>
> What kind of time warp was this?
>
> Operation Barbarossa kicked off on 22 June 1941.
>
> The USA entered the war against Germany on 11 December 1941 (when
> Germany declared war on the USA).

Yeah, I know. (It was late, and I was still dehydrated from a day out
in the sun...which we're still getting here, if not the 90+ temps the
midwest seems to be getting.)

[E. Barry Bruyea]

On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:43:18 -0400, Peter H. Granzeau
> wrote:

>On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 23:49:28 -0700, Steve Hix
> wrote:
>
>>Yeah, you guys (Soviets) were just the main supplier of oil to Germany
>>from the time the U.S. entered the war until Barbarossa.
>
>What kind of time warp was this?
>
>Operation Barbarossa kicked off on 22 June 1941.
>
>The USA entered the war against Germany on 11 December 1941 (when
>Germany declared war on the USA).


His dates were wrong, but the facts are correct. The USSR was the
single largest supplier of oil to Nazi Germany up until the day the
Germans invaded the Soviet Union. Trains were still rolling into
Germany from the USSR loaded with oil and other strategic materials as
the Germans crossed into Soviet Territory. As a matter of interest, I
believe Sweden was the next largest supplier. Sweden bought oil from
foreign sources and resold it to the Germans.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: 50% of NAZI oil was supplied from US
>From: Steve Hix
>Date: 10/20/03 3:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time

>.from the beginning of the war in late '39 until Barbarossa. U.S. had
>quit most fuel exports to Germany when the war began in Europe.
>

It was my pleasure to personally destroy tons of Gemrnan fues supplies in
repeated raids against tank farms. Go to my website and click on "WURZBURG" for
a photograph taken at the moment we hit a fuel farm and the resulting
fireball on the ground. It felt good.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Keith Willshaw]

"Michael Petukhov" > wrote in message
om...
> "Geoffrey Sinclair" > wrote in message
>...
> > This will probably appear in the wrong place thanks to a bad
> > news server.

> >
> > If you just want to go on the avgas, motor vehicle fuel and diesel
> > oil then stocks as of September 1939 were 1,241,000 tons,
> > production and imports 1940 to 1944 were 23,975,000 metric
> > tons of which 7,492,000 metric tons were imports.
>
> So 24 or 7.5 mil tons?
>

24 million tons was the total production of which
7.5 million were imports

> > Note imports
> > include over 1,000,000 tons of captured fuel and fuel sent directly
> > from Romania to the German army in the East.
>
> Romania was German ally till 44. why to capture?
>

He said Romanian production AND captured fuel

> >
> > Rather hard for the US to supply half of Germany's oil needs
> > unless there were large multi million ton imports in the 1937
> > to 1939 period, which clearly did not happen as the import
> > figures and 1939 fuel reserves figures show.
>
> Which import? US one? Maybe. How about Mexican, Venezuelian,
> S. African export under Standard oil control?
>

Coulddnt get there, the RN were rather efficient at blockading Germany

> > Diesel production
> > 1940 to 1944 amounted to 5,427,000 tons, imports another
> > 2,327,000 tons, stocks as of September 1939 298,000 tons.
> > The U-boats were the big users of diesel, again rather hard
> > for the US to supply 100% of the U-boat fuel.
>
> The article says that above mentioned oil was mainly supplied to
> Canaries where it was partly refined partly reloaded to Spanish
> tankers to be delivered in Mediterian ports under germany control.
>

Spain had barely suffucient tankers for its own needs and
tankers heading for axis ports tended to be sunk on sight.

> >
> > It would be good to know which country's ships were being
> > used to transport the oil, the allies were always short of
> > tankers until very late in the war. Spain in 1939 had some
> > 16 tankers, or 86,000 Gross registered tons (ships of
> > 1,600 GRT or larger).
>
> Well the artcile says that on the route from Americas to Canaries
> the Standard's tankers fleet under Panama flags were used. after
> that on the way from canaries to mediterian ports spanish tankers
> were used. The numbers fits. one week round trip 86000 tons*52=
> 4.5 mil tons/year plus german sub fleet refuelling in canaries
> until 44 at least 1 mil tons /year plus unknown amount of
> refulling of german subs in bases of S. America organized by
> Davis oil company.
>

Dont be silly.

1) A tanker cant make a delivery every week from the
USA to the Canary Islands. Its 3-4 weeks each way
including time for loading

2) That tanker fleet was all Spain had to meet its own
oil needs

3) The Canaries didnt have the facilities to handle such traffic

4) There are no German or Spanish records to indicate
any such dealings

> All around import from US companies 6 mil tons/year.
>
> >
> > In the time period 1 September 1939 to 22 June 1941 the
> > USSR supplied over 1,000,000 tons of petroleum products
> > to Germany out of over 3,500,000 tons of supplies. Then
> > add another 380,000 tons from Japan and 80,000 tons
> > from Afghanistan and Iran the USSR allowed to be
> > shipped through the USSR. See the Economic Blockade
> > by W N Medlicott, which goes into great detail about
> > Germany's imports from neutral countries, it includes
> > detailed tables from Sweden, Turkey, Spain, Portugal,
> > French North Africa and the USSR. It goes into the
> > negotiations the allies undertook with the neutrals to
> > minimise their trade with Germany and ensure they were
> > not used for blockade breaking.
>
> Indeed. However none after june 22, 1941 form USSR
> while Spanish oil was in fact 100% US one.
>

Spain was of course neutral and received barely sufficient oil
for its own use.

Keith

[Tank Fixer]

In article >, says...
> In article >,
> (Ron) wrote:
>
> > Oh I guess those German submarines must have stopped into US Harbors during
> > WW2, to replenish oil supplies, after raiding our convoys.
>
> try the canary islands.

Controled by.....

Spain.

Want to try again ?




--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

[Tank Fixer]

In article >,
says...
> "Michael Mcneil" > wrote in message gate.org>...
> > If you must feed them:
> >
> > Change the title; remove cross postings; remove all reference to them;
> > write a completely uninflamatory few lines that touch -as this does,
> > only tangentially what they initiated; make salient counter arguments
> > about almost irrelevant topics and then bring it around in later
> > messages to what the fool was talking about. That way he will have to
> > lose his advert, the title of the thread.
> >
> > What you must aim for is removing his name and fame. Next remove his
> > topic then bring it back as a rebuff by making a statement that answered
> > his original post. Better still, ignore him.
>
> Hm. It will not work. Simply because I post interesting things.
> even you cannot ignore it.

True, I always enjoy a good laugh in the evening...


--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

[Hugo S. Cunningham]

Maybe this website can help you?

http://www.everything2.org/index.pl?node=Odin's%2018%20charms

--Hugo S. Cunningham

[Regnirps]

<< It was my pleasure to personally destroy tons of Gemrnan fues supplies in
repeated raids against tank farms. Go to my website and click on "WURZBURG" for
a photograph taken at the moment we hit a fuel farm and the resulting
fireball on the ground. It felt good. >>

Nice hit Art. Got any film?

-- Charlie Springer

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

This will probably appear in the wrong place thanks to a bad
news server.

Michael Petukhov wrote in message ...
>"Geoffrey Sinclair" > wrote in message >...

>> Michael Petukhov wrote in message ...
>> >http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=16866&lang=ru
>> >
>> >(in russian)
>> >
>> >The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
>> >The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
>> >were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
>> >the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
>> >Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
>> >Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.
>>
>> I see someone is writing bad fiction and others are trying
>> to believe it.
>>
>> The allied air offensive against Germany's oil supplies
>> means the German oil situation has been well documented.
>>
>> Germany's oil imports, crude oil, fuels and lubricants, 1933
>> 2,703,000, 1934 3,158,000, 1935 3,792,000, 1936
>> 4,216,000, 1937 4,307,000, 1938 4,967,000 metric tons.
>> The increase is due to the economic recovery and stockpiling.
>>
>> Germany had 2,134,000 metric tons of oil stocks on 1 August
>> 1939, excluding the west fortification zone. Oil production in
>> greater Germany 1940 to 1944 was 29,482,000 metric tons,
>> this includes things like liquid gases.
>
>In 30 mil tons/5= 6 mil tons/year in agreement with data present
>in the article.

This is all oil production and appears to be the only fact the
article has correct.

>> If you just want to go on the avgas, motor vehicle fuel and diesel
>> oil then stocks as of September 1939 were 1,241,000 tons,
>> production and imports 1940 to 1944 were 23,975,000 metric
>> tons of which 7,492,000 metric tons were imports.
>
>So 24 or 7.5 mil tons?

Total production 16,483,000, imports 7,492,000.

>> Note imports
>> include over 1,000,000 tons of captured fuel and fuel sent directly
>> from Romania to the German army in the East.
>
>Romania was German ally till 44. why to capture?

The majority of the captured fuel was French in 1940,
then the Italian stocks in 1943.

>> Rather hard for the US to supply half of Germany's oil needs
>> unless there were large multi million ton imports in the 1937
>> to 1939 period, which clearly did not happen as the import
>> figures and 1939 fuel reserves figures show.
>
>Which import? US one? Maybe. How about Mexican, Venezuelian,
>S. African export under Standard oil control?

How about looking and seeing it is the German import
figures that show imports were under 1/3 of production
during the war, and then note how low the stocks were in
September 1939. The German war machine burnt more
Soviet fuel than US. For the US to supply half the German
oil then the US has to be the major supplier pre war and
German stocks have to be on the order of 9 million tons
in 1939, all taken from US imports. Note in the 1933 to
1938 period Romania supplied around 13% of German
fuel imports, 3,012,000 tons, in 1939 the imports from
Romania were around 1,285,000 tons.

>> Diesel production
>> 1940 to 1944 amounted to 5,427,000 tons, imports another
>> 2,327,000 tons, stocks as of September 1939 298,000 tons.
>> The U-boats were the big users of diesel, again rather hard
>> for the US to supply 100% of the U-boat fuel.
>
>The article says that above mentioned oil was mainly supplied to
>Canaries where it was partly refined partly reloaded to Spanish
>tankers to be delivered in Mediterian ports under germany control.

I see the claim is there was a large oil port in the canaries,
capable of handling millions of tons of fuel per year, plus
refinery capacity. What did this port do pre war and what
did it do post war?

Can you explain why the book Oil and War by Goralski
and Freeburg does not mention any Spanish refining
capacity, even when it mentions Norway's 1,200 barrels
per day capacity, about 0.01% of world capacity? The
book has many tables on world oil production and
refining capacities.

>> It would be good to know which country's ships were being
>> used to transport the oil, the allies were always short of
>> tankers until very late in the war. Spain in 1939 had some
>> 16 tankers, or 86,000 Gross registered tons (ships of
>> 1,600 GRT or larger).
>
>Well the artcile says that on the route from Americas to Canaries
>the Standard's tankers fleet under Panama flags were used. after
>that on the way from canaries to mediterian ports spanish tankers
>were used.

So with a world wide shortage of tankers, the British did
not notice all those US tankers sailing full to the Canaries
and then empty back to the US? Supplying Spain with
many times its pre war fuel consumption. Furthermore
the British let all those loaded tankers sail past Gibraltar
and onto the French Mediterranean ports all war, even
after the capture of French North Africa in late 1942?

>The numbers fits. one week round trip 86000 tons*52=
>4.5 mil tons/year plus german sub fleet refuelling in canaries
>until 44 at least 1 mil tons /year plus unknown amount of
>refulling of german subs in bases of S. America organized by
>Davis oil company.

Can you please explain why U-boats would go to the North
Atlantic from France and Germany via the Canaries?

Can you please note people have examine the U-boat
war diaries and the claims the U-boats received large
scale help from neutrals is clearly wrong?

Can you show all the U-boat kills around the Canaries,
after all if they all went there then there must be plenty
sunk by allied ASW assets.

>All around import from US companies 6 mil tons/year.

This is quite funny, the German records show imports for
the 5 years 1940 to 1944 to be 7 million tons, but we have
someone claiming imports were 6 million tons per year.
Also the pre war import figures were below 5 million tons
per year, with one possible exception, 1939.

>> In the time period 1 September 1939 to 22 June 1941 the
>> USSR supplied over 1,000,000 tons of petroleum products
>> to Germany out of over 3,500,000 tons of supplies. Then
>> add another 380,000 tons from Japan and 80,000 tons
>> from Afghanistan and Iran the USSR allowed to be
>> shipped through the USSR.

To clarify the imports from Japan etc were various supplies,
no oil.

>>See the Economic Blockade
>> by W N Medlicott, which goes into great detail about
>> Germany's imports from neutral countries, it includes
>> detailed tables from Sweden, Turkey, Spain, Portugal,
>> French North Africa and the USSR. It goes into the
>> negotiations the allies undertook with the neutrals to
>> minimise their trade with Germany and ensure they were
>> not used for blockade breaking.
>
>Indeed. However none after june 22, 1941 form USSR
>while Spanish oil was in fact 100% US one.

I doubt this will really matter but the reference I gave gives
2 sets of figures for the named countries, the German
records of what they received and the relevant country's
records of what they exported. Things like 3 tons of
Mercury and Mercury alloys from Spain in 1939, 4 tons
of lead ore in 1943. Neither the German nor Spanish
records show oil products except olive oil.

Do you understand? Zero oil products. The article you so
want to believe in is fiction. The two main external sources
of German fuel 1939 to 1944 were the Romanians and
the USSR. Whoever supplied oil to the Germans pre
war contributed to the 1,241,000 fuel stockpile at the
start of the war and certainly some of that was western
oil but that stockpile was 1.2 million tons versus 24
million tons of production/imports 1940 to 1944, makes
it 5%. Sounds like at best the writer simply added a zero
to sell the story to those who would pay to hear what
they wanted to hear.

Romanian fuel exports (tons) to Germany and Czechoslovakia
1938 999,240, 1939 1,285,153, 1940 1,429,807, 1941
2,885,229, 1942 1,822,207, 1943 1,795,555. Directly to the
German army in the east 1941 34,351, 1942 369,452, 1943
715,749. So Romania contributed around 20% of German
oil imports in 1938, and even more in 1939.

One note, in 1940 the USSR imported around 1,000,000
barrels (NOT tons) of oil from the US, while selling oil to
the Germans.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: 50% of NAZI oil was supplied from US
>From: (Regnirps)
>Date: 10/20/03 9:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
><< It was my pleasure to personally destroy tons of Gemrnan fues supplies in
>repeated raids against tank farms. Go to my website and click on "WURZBURG"
>for
>a photograph taken at the moment we hit a fuel farm and the resulting
>fireball on the ground. It felt good. >>
>
>Nice hit Art. Got any film?
>
>-- Charlie Springer
>

Still have the original negs around somewhere. Hits on tank farms were always
spectacular. You never have to wonder about the results of the mission.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Snuffy Smith]

Don't forget to tell us about all the raw materials Uncle Joe sent to Nazi
Germany.


"Michael Petukhov" > wrote in message
om...
> http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=16866&lang=ru
>
> (in russian)
>
> The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
> The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
> were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
> the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
> Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
> Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.
>
> Michael

[Stuart Wilkes]

"Snuffy Smith" > wrote in message >...
> Don't forget to tell us about all the raw materials Uncle Joe sent to Nazi
> Germany.

As well as the raw materials the US sent to Japan.

Stuart Wilkes

> "Michael Petukhov" > wrote in message
> om...
> > http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=16866&lang=ru
> >
> > (in russian)
> >
> > The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
> > The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
> > were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
> > the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
> > Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
> > Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.
> >
> > Michael

[Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj]

Stuart Wilkes wrote:

> "Snuffy Smith" > wrote in message >...
>
>>Don't forget to tell us about all the raw materials Uncle Joe sent to Nazi
>>Germany.
>
> As well as the raw materials the US sent to Japan.
>
> Stuart Wilkes
>
Did the US have a pact with Japan, similar to the Stalin Hitler,
Molotov Ribbentrop pact to divide Europe between them?

[B2431]

>From: "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj"
>Date: 10/22/2003 1:48 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Stuart Wilkes wrote:
>
>> "Snuffy Smith" > wrote in message
>...
>>
>>>Don't forget to tell us about all the raw materials Uncle Joe sent to Nazi
>>>Germany.
>>
>> As well as the raw materials the US sent to Japan.
>>
>> Stuart Wilkes
>>
>Did the US have a pact with Japan, similar to the Stalin Hitler,
>Molotov Ribbentrop pact to divide Europe between them?
>
>
The U.S. cut off raw material shipments to Japan as a result Japan's
misbehaviour in China. The Japanese rationale for attacking the U.S. was to
ensure they could take the Dutch oil fields, the Philipines etc uninterrupted
for control of their resources. Estimates were Japan had about 6 months before
running out of strategic resources at the time of Pearl Harbour.

My personal opinion is the Pearl Harbour attacks were a waste of time since
Japan could have expanded into the areas without much more than a yell or two
from the U.S..

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Nik Simpson]

Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj wrote:
> Stuart Wilkes wrote:
>
>> "Snuffy Smith" > wrote in message
>> >...
>>
>>> Don't forget to tell us about all the raw materials Uncle Joe sent
>>> to Nazi Germany.
>>
>> As well as the raw materials the US sent to Japan.
>>
>> Stuart Wilkes
>>
> Did the US have a pact with Japan, similar to the Stalin Hitler,
> Molotov Ribbentrop pact to divide Europe between them?

Uh, no.


--
Nik Simpson

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: 50% of NAZI oil was supplied from US
>From: "Nik Simpson"
>Date: 10/22/03 1:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time

>> As well as the raw materials the US sent to Japan.
>>>
>>> Stuart Wilkes

The 3rd Ave EL was sold to Japan as scrap metal.We got it all back from the air
at Pearl. No charge,

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Stuart Wilkes]

"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message >...
> Stuart Wilkes wrote:
>
> > "Snuffy Smith" > wrote in message >...
> >
> >>Don't forget to tell us about all the raw materials Uncle Joe sent to Nazi
> >>Germany.
> >
> > As well as the raw materials the US sent to Japan.
> >
> > Stuart Wilkes
> >
> Did the US have a pact with Japan, similar to the Stalin Hitler,
> Molotov Ribbentrop pact to divide Europe between them?

No. The US government had no particular interest in dividing Mongolia
and Siberia with Japan. Mongolia and Siberia are not particularly
feasable routes if a Japanese government has the intention of
attacking the US. And the Japanese attacks on the Soviets and
Mongolia drew no adverse reaction from the US.

Stuart Wilkes

[Regnirps]

(ArtKramr) Wrote:

<< Still have the original negs around somewhere. Hits on tank farms were
always spectacular. You never have to wonder about the results of the mission.
>>

I bet the resolution is great. Those large format cameras give pretty
spectacular results. I usually work with 16mm gun camera films (which used a
darn good film in a very poor camera). But I occasionally do a restoration or
scan and print of a large format still and I'm always amazed at the detail I
can find when I go for the very high enlargement.

-- Charlie Springer

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
(B2431) wrote:

> >From: "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj"
> >Date: 10/22/2003 1:48 PM Central Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >Stuart Wilkes wrote:
> >
> The U.S. cut off raw material shipments to Japan as a result Japan's
> misbehaviour in China. The Japanese rationale for attacking the U.S. was to
> ensure they could take the Dutch oil fields, the Philipines etc uninterrupted
> for control of their resources. Estimates were Japan had about 6 months before
> running out of strategic resources at the time of Pearl Harbour.
>
> My personal opinion is the Pearl Harbour attacks were a waste of time since
> Japan could have expanded into the areas without much more than a yell or two
> from the U.S..

Japan didn't think so, largely because raw materials that they needed to
continue expanding into Asia had been embargoed by the U.S. On top of
that, neither the Brits nor the Dutch were likely to stand aside and let
Japan take over the Dutch East Indies oil fields.

[Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj]

Stuart Wilkes wrote:

> "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message >...
>
>>Stuart Wilkes wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Snuffy Smith" > wrote in message >...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Don't forget to tell us about all the raw materials Uncle Joe sent to Nazi
>>>>Germany.
>>>
>>>As well as the raw materials the US sent to Japan.
>>>
>>>Stuart Wilkes
>>>
>>
>>Did the US have a pact with Japan, similar to the Stalin Hitler,
>>Molotov Ribbentrop pact to divide Europe between them?
>
>
> No. The US government had no particular interest in dividing Mongolia
> and Siberia with Japan. Mongolia and Siberia are not particularly
> feasable routes if a Japanese government has the intention of
> attacking the US. And the Japanese attacks on the Soviets and
> Mongolia drew no adverse reaction from the US.
>
> Stuart Wilkes

Regarding your assertion equating pre 1941 US Japan trade with
soviet assistance to Hitlers reich.
Wasn't there an embargo placed on shipments of steel between
the two countries, as well as access to oil?
How does this support your implications?
--
Rostyk

[B2431]

<snip>
>>
>> My personal opinion is the Pearl Harbour attacks were a waste of time since
>> Japan could have expanded into the areas without much more than a yell or
>two
>> from the U.S..
>
>Japan didn't think so, largely because raw materials that they needed to
>continue expanding into Asia had been embargoed by the U.S. On top of
>that, neither the Brits nor the Dutch were likely to stand aside and let
>Japan take over the Dutch East Indies oil fields.
>
OK, I may not have been clear. I was referring to U.S. reaction. As for the
British and Dutch forces actual events showed the Japanese had the ability to
handle them.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[Keith Willshaw]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
>

> >
> OK, I may not have been clear. I was referring to U.S. reaction. As for
the
> British and Dutch forces actual events showed the Japanese had the ability
to
> handle them.
>
> Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired
>
>

The problem for the Japanese was that with US forces in
the Phillipines the Americans were in a position to interdict
supplies from the NEI to the home islands.

They had noted the US buildup and were well aware that
within a year or two they would be simply unable to take
out those bases and would be almost out of oil since
they had at best 2 years oil supplies on hand and it would
take that long to restore the NEI fields to production
and produce enough tankers to move that production.

The Japanese had not only been dependent on US oil
but US tankers to transport it.

Keith

[Seraphim]

(B2431) wrote in
:

>From: "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj"
>Date: 10/22/2003 1:48 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>>
>>Did the US have a pact with Japan, similar to the Stalin Hitler,
>>Molotov Ribbentrop pact to divide Europe between them?
>>
>>
> The U.S. cut off raw material shipments to Japan as a result Japan's
> misbehaviour in China. The Japanese rationale for attacking the U.S.
> was to ensure they could take the Dutch oil fields, the Philipines etc
> uninterrupted for control of their resources. Estimates were Japan had
> about 6 months before running out of strategic resources at the time
> of Pearl Harbour.
>
> My personal opinion is the Pearl Harbour attacks were a waste of time
> since Japan could have expanded into the areas without much more than
> a yell or two from the U.S..

While they might not have had much trouble with attacing the Dutch, I have
a feeling that the invasion of the Philipines, which were a US territory,
controled by the US army, with waters patroled by the USN, (etc...), would
have caused some kind of negative reaction in the US. I find it very hard
to believe that the US government would view an attack on the Philipines
any anything other than an act of war.

[Stuart Wilkes]

"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message >...
> Stuart Wilkes wrote:
>
> > "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message >...
> >
> >>Stuart Wilkes wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>"Snuffy Smith" > wrote in message >...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Don't forget to tell us about all the raw materials Uncle Joe sent to Nazi
> >>>>Germany.
> >>>
> >>>As well as the raw materials the US sent to Japan.
> >>>
> >>>Stuart Wilkes
> >>>
> >>
> >>Did the US have a pact with Japan, similar to the Stalin Hitler,
> >>Molotov Ribbentrop pact to divide Europe between them?
> >
> >
> > No. The US government had no particular interest in dividing Mongolia
> > and Siberia with Japan. Mongolia and Siberia are not particularly
> > feasable routes if a Japanese government has the intention of
> > attacking the US. And the Japanese attacks on the Soviets and
> > Mongolia drew no adverse reaction from the US.
> >
> > Stuart Wilkes
>
> Regarding your assertion equating pre 1941 US Japan trade with
> soviet assistance to Hitlers reich.

yes, Rostyk?

> Wasn't there an embargo placed on shipments of steel between
> the two countries, as well as access to oil?

Not while the Soviet-Japan border war was going. That ran between
1937 - 1939. The US did not freeze Japanese assets and embargo scrap
steel and oil until 1941.

> How does this support your implications?

It has nothing to do with them, since the shipments continued
throughout the entire Soviet-Japan border war.

Stuart Wilkes

[Keith Willshaw]

"Stuart Wilkes" > wrote in message
om...
> "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message
>...
> > Stuart Wilkes wrote:
> >

>
> > Wasn't there an embargo placed on shipments of steel between
> > the two countries, as well as access to oil?
>
> Not while the Soviet-Japan border war was going. That ran between
> 1937 - 1939. The US did not freeze Japanese assets and embargo scrap
> steel and oil until 1941.
>
> > How does this support your implications?
>
> It has nothing to do with them, since the shipments continued
> throughout the entire Soviet-Japan border war.

No state of war was ever declared, there were a series of
border clashes culminating in the battle of Khalkin Ghol
between May and Sept 1939.

Keith

[Stuart Wilkes]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message >...
> "Stuart Wilkes" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message
> >...
> > > Stuart Wilkes wrote:
> > >
>
>
> > > Wasn't there an embargo placed on shipments of steel between
> > > the two countries, as well as access to oil?
> >
> > Not while the Soviet-Japan border war was going. That ran between
> > 1937 - 1939. The US did not freeze Japanese assets and embargo scrap
> > steel and oil until 1941.
> >
> > > How does this support your implications?
> >
> > It has nothing to do with them, since the shipments continued
> > throughout the entire Soviet-Japan border war.
>
> No state of war was ever declared,

A state of war existed. Hence all the tanks going to-and-fro over
various borders.

> there were a series of border clashes culminating in the battle of
> Khalkin Ghol between May and Sept 1939.

Border clashes... that inflicted more casualties on the IJA than the
British Armed Forces managed at Singapore. Hm.

Stuart Wilkes

[Michael Petukhov]

"Geoffrey Sinclair" > wrote in message >...
> This will probably appear in the wrong place thanks to a bad
> news server.
>

Bad or not that bad. How about this?

Michael
---------------------------------

The A Word
By Mickey Z.

There's a petition making the rounds on the Internet that reads: "We
demand that the government of the United States cease and desist its
failed policy of appeasement concerning Saddam Hussein and with all
dispatch and all force necessary, rid us of the terrorist Saddam
Hussein and his weapons of mass destruction before he can use them in
his ongoing war against the United States."

The key word here is not "terrorist," it's "appeasement." Without it,
the petition would be impotent. Without it, there would be no
invocation of The Good War.

What we're taught about the years leading up to the Second World War
involves alleged appeasement of the Third Reich, i.e., if only the
Allies were stronger in their resolve, the Axis powers could have been
stopped.

Having made that mistake once, the mantra goes, we can't make it
again.

There are many issues swirling about the current situation in Iraq but
comparing Hussein to Hitler and invoking the A Word activates the
following historical façade: by whipping the original axis of evil in
a noble and popular war, the United States and its allies can now wave
the banner of humanitarianism and intervene with impunity across the
globe without their motivations being questioned … especially when
every enemy of the U.S. is likened to Hitler.

Perhaps the first step in challenging this so-called analysis would be
to demonstrate that it wasn't appeasement that took place prior to
WWII. It was, in the best cases, indifference; at worst it was
collaboration based on economic greed and more than a little shared
ideology.

The pursuit of profit long ago transcended national borders and
national loyalty. In the decades before WWII, doing business with
Hitler's Germany or Mussolini's Italy (or, as a proxy, Franco's Spain)
proved no more unsavory to the captains of industry than selling
military hardware to Indonesia does today. What's a little repression
when there's money to be made? In other words, when William E. Dodd,
U.S. ambassador to Germany during the 1930s, declared "a clique of
U.S. industrialists is working closely with the fascist regime[s] in
Germany and Italy," he wasn't kidding.

"Many leaders of Wall Street and of the U.S. foreign policy
establishment had maintained close ties with their German counterparts
since the 1920s, some having intermarried or shared investments," says
investigative reporter Christopher Simpson. "This went so far in the
1930s as the sale in New York of bonds whose proceeds helped finance
the Aryanization of companies and real estate looted from German Jews
… U.S. investment in Germany accelerated rapidly after Hitler came to
power." Such investment increased "by some 48.5 percent between 1929
and 1940, while declining sharply everywhere else in continental
Europe."

The Collaborators

Among the U.S. corporations that invested in Germany during the 1920s
were Ford, General Motors, General Electric, Standard Oil, Texaco,
International Harvester, ITT, and IBM — all of whom were more than
happy to see the German labor movement and working-class parties
smashed. For many of these companies, operations in Germany continued
during the war (even if it meant the use of concentration-camp slave
labor) with overt U.S. government support. "Pilots were given
instructions not to hit factories in Germany that were owned by U.S.
firms," writes Michael Parenti. "Thus Cologne was almost leveled by
Allied bombing but its Ford plant, providing military equipment for
the Nazi army, was untouched; indeed, German civilians began using the
plant as an air raid shelter."

International Telephone and Telegraph (ITT) was founded by Sosthenes
Behn, an unabashed supporter of the Führer even as the Luftwaffe was
bombing civilians in London. ITT was responsible for creating the Nazi
communications system, along with supplying vital parts for German
bombs. According to journalist Jonathan Vankin, "Behn allowed his
company to cover for Nazi spies in South America, and one of ITT's
subsidiaries bought a hefty swath of stock in the airline company that
built Nazi bombers."

Behn himself met with Hitler in 1933 (the first American businessman
to do so) and became a double agent of sorts. While reporting on the
activities of German companies to the U.S. government, Behn was also
contributing money to Heinrich Himmler's Schutzstaffel (SS) and
recruiting Nazis onto ITT's board. In 1940, Behn entertained a close
friend and high-ranking Nazi, Gerhard Westrick, in the United States
to discuss a potential U.S.-German business alliance, precisely as
Hitler's blitzkrieg was overrunning most of Europe and Nazi atrocities
were becoming known worldwide.

In early 1946, having relied on the Dulles brothers to survive his
open flirtation with Nazi Germany, instead of facing prosecution for
treason, Behn ended up collecting $27 million from the U.S. government
for "war damages inflicted on its German plants by Allied bombing." He
was in the perfect position to lobby President Truman concerning the
newly formed Central Intelligence Group (CIG). Meeting with the chair
of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral William D. Leahy, in the White
House, Behn, as recorded in Leahy's diary, generously offered for
consideration "the possibility of utilizing the service of [ITT's]
personnel in American intelligence activities."

In December 1933, Standard Oil of New York invested $1 million in
Germany for the making of gasoline from soft coal. Undeterred by the
well-publicized events of the next decade, Standard Oil also honored
its chemical contracts with I.G. Farben — a German chemical cartel
that manufactured Zyklon-B, the poison gas used in the Nazi gas
chambers — right up until 1942. Other companies that traded with the
Reich and, in some cases, directly aided the war machine, before and
during this time, included Chase Manhattan Bank, Davis Oil, DuPont,
Bendix, Sperry Gyroscope, and the aforementioned General Motors. GM
top man William Knudsen called Nazi Germany "the miracle of the 20th
century."

On the governmental front, U.S. Secretary of State Breckinridge Long
curiously gave Ford Motor Company permission to manufacture Nazi tanks
while simultaneously restricting aid to German-Jewish refugees because
the Neutrality Act of 1935 barred trade with belligerent countries.
Miraculously, this embargo did not include petroleum products and
Mussolini's Italy tripled its gasoline and oil imports in order to
support its war effort while Texaco exploited this convenient loophole
to cozy up to Spain's resident fascist, Generalissimo Francisco
Franco.

The Dulles Brothers

And then there was Sullivan and Cromwell, the most powerful Wall
Street law firm of the 1930s. John Foster Dulles and Allen Dulles —
the two brothers who guided the firm; the same two brothers who
boycotted their own sister's 1932 wedding because the groom was Jewish
— served as the contacts for the company responsible for the gas in
the Nazi gas chambers, I.G. Farben. During the pre-war period, the
elder John Foster led off cables to his German clients with the
salutation "Heil Hitler," and he blithely dismissed the Nazi threat in
1935 in a piece he wrote for the Atlantic Monthly. In 1939, he told
the Economic Club of New York, "We have to welcome and nurture the
desire of the New Germany to find for her energies a new outlet."

"Hitler's attacks on the Jews and his growing propensity for
territorial expansion seem to have left Dulles unmoved," writes
historian Robert Edward Herzstein. "Twice a year, [Dulles] visited the
Berlin office of the firm, located in the luxurious Esplanade Hotel."

Ultimately, it was little brother Allen who actually got to meet the
German dictator, and eventually smoothed over the blatant Nazi ties of
ITT's Sosthenes Behn. "(Allen) Dulles was an originator of the idea
that multinational corporations are instruments of U.S. foreign policy
and therefore exempt from domestic laws," Vankin writes. This idea
later took root in U.S.-dominated institutions and agreements like the
World Bank, International Monetary Fund, and World Trade Organization.

Leonard Mosley, biographer of the Dulles brothers, defends Allen by
evoking the never-fail, all-purpose alibi of anticommunism. The
younger Dulles, Mosley claims, "made his loathing of the Nazis plain,
years before World War II … (it was) the Russians (who tried) to link
his name with bankers who financed Hitler." However, in 1946, both
brothers would play a major role in the founding of the United States'
intelligence community and the subsequent recruiting of Nazi war
criminals.

Henry Ford

One Third Reich supporter who never required a disclaimer was Henry
Ford, the autocratic magnate who despised unions, tyrannized workers,
and fired any employee caught driving a competitor's model. Ford, an
outspoken anti-Semite, believed that Jews corrupted gentiles with
"syphilis, Hollywood, gambling, and jazz." In 1918, he bought and ran
a newspaper, The Dearborn Independent, which became an anti-Jewish
forum.

"The New York Times reported in 1922 that there was a widespread rumor
circulating in Berlin claiming that Henry Ford was financing Adolf
Hitler's nationalist and anti-Semitic movement in Munich," write James
and Suzanne Pool in their book Who Financed Hitler. "Novelist Upton
Sinclair wrote in The Flivver King, a book about Ford, that the Nazis
got $40,000 from Ford to reprint anti-Jewish pamphlets in German
translations, and that an additional $300,000 was later sent to Hitler
through a grandson of the ex-Kaiser who acted as intermediary."

An appreciative Adolf Hitler kept a large picture of the automobile
pioneer besides his desk, explaining: "We look to Heinrich (sic) Ford
as the leader of the growing Fascist movement in America." Hitler
hoped to support such a movement by offering to "import some shock
troops to the U.S. to help [Ford] run for president."

In 1938, on Henry Ford's 75th birthday, he was awarded the Grand Cross
of the Supreme Order of the German Eagle from the Führer himself. He
was the first American (GM's James Mooney would be second) and only
the fourth person in the world to receive the highest decoration that
could be given to any non-German citizen. An earlier honoree was none
other than kindred spirit, Benito Mussolini.

Nazism's Working Class Support

U.S. support for Nazism transcended class. A February 20, 1939 rally
drew 22,000 avid followers, all marching and raising their arms in a
Nazi salute to their leader. The venue was Madison Square Garden where
frenzied members of the German-American Bund cheered Fritz Kuhn as he
stood before a 30-foot high portrait of George Washington flanked by
black swastikas, leading them in a chant of "Free Amerika!" (a
rallying cry which had just recently replaced "Sieg Heil!"), while
1,300 New York City policemen stood guard outside the building.

A U.S. citizen who served in the German Army during the First World
War, Kuhn stirred up his mostly German-American conscripts by
explaining that Lenin was a Jew, J. P. Morgan had Jewish blood, and
Franklin Delano Roosevelt's real name was "Rosenfeld." Other anti-FDR
rumors spread by his adversaries were often aimed at the high-profile
First Lady, Eleanor, i.e., she had given the president gonorrhea
(which she had "contracted from a Negro") and she was known to visit
Moscow "to learn unspeakable sexual practices."

Kuhn's endless proselytizing did not go unnoticed by the Third Reich;
he attended the 1936 Olympics as an honored guest and met Adolf Hitler
by special invitation. "Fritz Kuhn awkwardly presented the Führer with
$3,000, a gift for a Nazi relief fund," writes Herzstein. "Hitler was
not particularly impressed with this rag-tag group, but this did not
bother Kuhn, if he realized at all. Eager to trade on his new
notoriety, Kuhn implied that he came home from Berlin bearing Hitler's
blessing."

Doing his part to prey on the fears of everyday Americans was Father
Charles Coughlin, a Canadian-born Catholic priest who rose to
prominence during the Depression as a radio commentator with upwards
of 15 million to 20 million listeners (with some estimates as high as
40 million) on 47 stations.

"No friend of the Jews, Coughlin believed that Professor Felix
Frankfurter and labor leader David Dubinsky exercised undue influence
on FDR," says Herzstein. "He called them communists." When Rev.
Coughlin was asked by a Boston Globe reporter to prove this
allegation, the priest belted the journalist in the face.

While his attacks on Jews did cost him some of his audience, Coughlin
remained undeterred in his rants against the "Christ-killers and
Christ-rejecters." He even went as far as reprinting the notorious
anti-Semitic tract "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" in his newspaper,
Social Justice, in 1938. The demagogic clergyman perceived U.S. aid to
Britain as the first step in a plan to "substitute Karl Marx for
George Washington." For his efforts, the Nazi press labeled Coughlin
"America's most powerful radio commentator."

Il Duce

Adolf Hitler and his Nazi regime were not the only recipients of
American moral support; there was a particular blacksmith's son who
also merited the attention of U.S. businessmen and lawmakers alike.
Benito Mussolini, exploiting the fears of an anti-communist ruling
class in Italy, installed himself as head of the single-party fascist
state in 1925 after declaring three years earlier that, "either they
will give us the government or we shall take it by descending on
Rome." Virulently anticommunist, anti-Semitic, and anti-labor like
Hitler, Il Duce ("the leader") was prone to pronouncements like this:
"We stand for a new principle in the world. We stand for the sheer,
categorical, definitive antithesis to the world of democracy.

Putting this doctrine into action, Il Duce took aim at Italy's
powerful unions. The solution was to smash unions, political
organizations, and civil liberties. This included the destruction of
labor halls, the shutting down of opposition newspapers, and unions
and strikes were outlawed in both Italy and Germany. Union property
and farm collectives were confiscated and handed over to rich private
owners. Even child labor was reintroduced in Mussolini's Italy.

Despite or perhaps because of the Blackshirts, the terror tactics, the
smashing of democratic institutions, and the blatant fascist
posturing, Mussolini received some rave reviews on both sides of the
Atlantic.

"It is easy to mistake, in times of political turmoil, the words of a
disciplinarian for those of a dictator. Mussolini is a severe
disciplinarian, but no dictator," wrote New York Times senior foreign
correspondent Walter Littlefield in 1922. Further serving the
corporate roots of the U.S. media, Littlefield went on to advise that
"if the Italian people are wise, they will accept the Fascismo, and by
accepting [they will] gain the power to regulate and control it." Six
days earlier, an unsigned Times editorial observed that "in Italy as
everywhere else, the great complaint against democracy is its
inefficiency ... Dr. Mussolini's experiment will perhaps tells us
something more about the possibilities of oligarchic administration."

In January 1927, Winston Churchill wrote to Il Duce, gushing "if I had
been an Italian, I am sure I would have been entirely with you from
the beginning to the end of your victorious struggle against the
bestial appetites and passions of Leninism." Even after the advent of
war, Churchill still found room in his heart for the Italian dictator,
explaining to Parliament in 1940: "I do not deny that he is a very
great man but he became a criminal when he attacked England."

Other unabashed apologists for Dr. Mussolini included:

Richard W. Child, former ambassador to Rome, who stated in 1938: "it
is absurd to say that Italy groans under discipline. Italy chortles
with it! It is victor! Time has shown that Mussolini is both wise and
humane."
The House of Morgan loaned $100 million to the Italian government in
the late 1920s, and then reinvested it in Italy upon its repayment.
Secretary of the Treasury Andrew Mellon, who, also in the late 1920s,
renegotiated the Italian debt to the U.S. on terms more favorable by
far than those obtained by Britain, France, or Belgium.
Governor Philip F. La Follette of Wisconsin (considered presidential
timber in the 1930s) kept an autographed photo of Il Duce on his wall.
A 1934 Cole Porter song originally contained the lyrics, "You're the
tops, you're Mussolini." It was eventually changed to "the Mona Lisa."
As late as 1940, 80 percent of the Italian-language dailies in the
U.S. were pro-Mussolini.
The ultraconservative Pope Pius XI who shared Mussolini's Bolshevik
paranoia provided support from a "higher source". In exchange for
Fascist recognition of the independence of Vatican City, the pope
bestowed his blessing upon Il Duce's invasion of Ethiopia and his
intervention in the Spanish Civil War. Even after Italy had aligned
itself with Nazi Germany, the papacy never broke with either Fascist
regime.

Finally, for support from the highest of all sources, there was FDR
himself who, well into the 1930s, was "deeply impressed" with Benito
Mussolini and referred to the Italian ruler as that "admirable Italian
gentleman."

A Fascist Coup in America?

Despite Roosevelt's positive assessment of the strongman of Italian
fascism, there is evidence that some home-grown fascists may have
cautiously explored the option of an American coup. In 1934, the
DuPonts and the Morgans tried to hire former Marine Gen. Smedley
Butler (Ret.) to stage a fascist overthrow of the supposedly liberal
Roosevelt administration. Later that year, Butler testified before a
congressional committee convened to investigate this possible
sedition.

After claiming that Wall Street brokers had offered him millions of
dollars to set up a fascist army of half a million, Butler explained
that Gerald MacGuire of Grayson Murphy and Company had told him that
FDR would remain as a figurehead president. Businessmen and generals
would run the country and everything would be legal. Before passing
judgment on the veracity of Butler's claims, consider how the general
himself summarized his career before a legionnaires convention in
1931:

"I spent 33 years ... being a high-class muscle man for Big Business,
for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer for
capitalism ... I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking
house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I helped make Mexico and
especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1916. I brought
light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916.
I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City
[Bank] boys to collect revenue in. I helped in the rape of a half a
dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street."

The alleged coup plan fizzled when Butler told FDR about it, thus
presenting the president with a new problem. Fearful of the financial
fallout of arresting anyone named Morgan or DuPont, FDR chose instead
to leak the news to the press. "Not for the first time or last time in
his career, [Roosevelt] was aware that there were powers greater than
he in the United States," says author Charles Higham.

Press reports led to the congressional investigation, which delved
into the role played in the proposed takeover by General Douglas
MacArthur. Thanks to the influence of big business, however, Congress
found the task of rooting out fascism among U.S. financiers and
corporate heads unnecessary.

"Butler begged the committee to summon the Du Ponts," says Higham,
"but the committee declined. Nor would it consent to call anyone from
the house of Morgan." Thus, while the supposed arsenal of democracy
was gearing up to do battle with totalitarianism, the very mechanism
of its popular support was under strenuous attack from the economic
elites in whose hands the power truly lies.

As a certain "admirable Italian gentleman" once declared, "Fascism is
corporatism."

This is where the most relevant similarities between Hussein and
Hitler exist. Despite committing atrocities, both murderers received
overt and covert support from the West in general and the United
States in particular ... all in the name of profit.

The United States, with its stockpile of lethal weapons and no
shortage of leaders dying to use them, has never been in the
appeasement business.

When President-Select Bush says, "You are either with us or against
us," he's merely selling old wine in a new bottle.

Mickey Z. is the author of Saving Private Power: The Hidden History of
"The Good War" (www.softskull.com) on which this article is based. He
can be reached at: .

[Keith Willshaw]

"Michael Petukhov" > wrote in message
om...
> "Geoffrey Sinclair" > wrote in message
>...
> > This will probably appear in the wrong place thanks to a bad
> > news server.
> >

>
> Among the U.S. corporations that invested in Germany during the 1920s
> were Ford, General Motors, General Electric, Standard Oil, Texaco,
> International Harvester, ITT, and IBM - all of whom were more than
> happy to see the German labor movement and working-class parties
> smashed. For many of these companies, operations in Germany continued
> during the war (even if it meant the use of concentration-camp slave
> labor) with overt U.S. government support. "Pilots were given
> instructions not to hit factories in Germany that were owned by U.S.
> firms," writes Michael Parenti. "Thus Cologne was almost leveled by
> Allied bombing but its Ford plant, providing military equipment for
> the Nazi army, was untouched; indeed, German civilians began using the
> plant as an air raid shelter."
>

This is nonsense.

From the diary entry of Warren C Brown who was a crew member of
a the 'Honey Chile' of the 486th bomb group

"Saturday, Oct 14 **
Thus begins our big 3 day adventure. We got up at 3:30 am (after two hours
of sleep) to eat breakfast and be at briefing at 4:30 am. We were briefed
for the same target (Cologne) as yesterday. We are to bomb it at 27,000 ft,
and our visual target is the German Ford Motor Company plant in Cologne."

The simple fact is that Ford at Cologne WERE an aiming point and
while the Ford plant itself was still 80% intact its production was
halved by June 1944 and stopped by October as a result of the
failure of power and destruction of transport infrastructure caused
by the heavy bombing of city. The Allies realised by 1944 that
if you bombed the power plants and railways you could stop
production much more effectively than trying to bomb dispersed
factory complexes.

Keith

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: 50% of NAZI oil was supplied from US
>From: "Keith Willshaw"
>Date: 10/24/03 1:36 AM Pacific

>Pilots were given
>> instructions not to hit factories in Germany that were owned by U.S.
>> firms," writes Michael Parenti. "Thus Cologne was almost leveled by
>> Allied bombing but its Ford plant, providing military equipment for
>> the Nazi army, was untouched; indeed, German civilians began using the
>> plant as an air raid shelter."
>>
>

I flew many missions to Cologne. We were never once instructed to avoid the
Ford plant.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[The Revolution Will Not Be Televised]

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:36:10 +0100, "Keith Willshaw"
> wrote:

>>"Pilots were given
>> instructions not to hit factories in Germany that were owned by U.S.
>> firms," writes Michael Parenti. "Thus Cologne was almost leveled by
>> Allied bombing but its Ford plant, providing military equipment for
>> the Nazi army, was untouched; indeed, German civilians began using the
>> plant as an air raid shelter."
>
>This is nonsense.

Indeed. The fact the the US government had to compensate US firms for
damage and loss to their property in Germany incurred during the war,
including by bombing by USAAF aircraft, contradicts it.

[snip more loon shooting by Keith]

Gavin Bailey


--

"Will Boogie Down For Food".- Sign held by Disco Stu outside the unemployment office.

[Stuart Wilkes' mom]

Stuey,

It's time to go to bed. Now get your batman pajamas on and turn that
computer off.



"Stuart Wilkes" > wrote in message
om...
> "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
>...
> > "Stuart Wilkes" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message
> > >...
> > > > Stuart Wilkes wrote:
> > > >
> >
> >
> > > > Wasn't there an embargo placed on shipments of steel between
> > > > the two countries, as well as access to oil?
> > >
> > > Not while the Soviet-Japan border war was going. That ran between
> > > 1937 - 1939. The US did not freeze Japanese assets and embargo scrap
> > > steel and oil until 1941.
> > >
> > > > How does this support your implications?
> > >
> > > It has nothing to do with them, since the shipments continued
> > > throughout the entire Soviet-Japan border war.
> >
> > No state of war was ever declared,
>
> A state of war existed. Hence all the tanks going to-and-fro over
> various borders.
>
> > there were a series of border clashes culminating in the battle of
> > Khalkin Ghol between May and Sept 1939.
>
> Border clashes... that inflicted more casualties on the IJA than the
> British Armed Forces managed at Singapore. Hm.
>
> Stuart Wilkes

[ZZBunker]

(The Revolution Will Not Be Televised) wrote in message >...
> On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:36:10 +0100, "Keith Willshaw"
> > wrote:
>
> >>"Pilots were given
> >> instructions not to hit factories in Germany that were owned by U.S.
> >> firms," writes Michael Parenti. "Thus Cologne was almost leveled by
> >> Allied bombing but its Ford plant, providing military equipment for
> >> the Nazi army, was untouched; indeed, German civilians began using the
> >> plant as an air raid shelter."
> >
> >This is nonsense.
>
> Indeed. The fact the the US government had to compensate US firms for
> damage and loss to their property in Germany incurred during the war,
> including by bombing by USAAF aircraft, contradicts it.


But, the *reason* for that is that the US government
is 50% run by French idiots who do not understand war.
Since in WWII the US Government was *still* compensating
US firms in Germany for the US Government's use of
*chemical* weapons in WWI.

Or as our war strategy is currently:

"Over here, over there, we don't care.
Since either way Euro-morons will die".





> [snip more loon shooting by Keith]
>
> Gavin Bailey

[Stuart Wilkes]

"Stuart Wilkes' mom" > wrote in message >...
> Stuey,
>
> It's time to go to bed. Now get your batman pajamas on and turn that
> computer off.

"Snuffy Smith" NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.192.189.54

"Stuart Wilkes' mom" NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.192.189.54

Why don't you toddle off and tell some spiteful lies, Mark.

Stuart Wilkes

> "Stuart Wilkes" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
> >...
> > > "Stuart Wilkes" > wrote in message
> > > om...
> > > > "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message
> >...
> > > > > Stuart Wilkes wrote:
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > > Wasn't there an embargo placed on shipments of steel between
> > > > > the two countries, as well as access to oil?
> > > >
> > > > Not while the Soviet-Japan border war was going. That ran between
> > > > 1937 - 1939. The US did not freeze Japanese assets and embargo scrap
> > > > steel and oil until 1941.
> > > >
> > > > > How does this support your implications?
> > > >
> > > > It has nothing to do with them, since the shipments continued
> > > > throughout the entire Soviet-Japan border war.
> > >
> > > No state of war was ever declared,
> >
> > A state of war existed. Hence all the tanks going to-and-fro over
> > various borders.
> >
> > > there were a series of border clashes culminating in the battle of
> > > Khalkin Ghol between May and Sept 1939.
> >
> > Border clashes... that inflicted more casualties on the IJA than the
> > British Armed Forces managed at Singapore. Hm.
> >
> > Stuart Wilkes

[Stuart Wilkes' mom]

"Stuart Wilkes" > wrote in message
om...
> "Stuart Wilkes' mom" > wrote in message
>...
> > Stuey,
> >
> > It's time to go to bed. Now get your batman pajamas on and turn that
> > computer off.
>
> "Snuffy Smith" NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.192.189.54
>
> "Stuart Wilkes' mom" NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.192.189.54
>
> Why don't you toddle off and tell some spiteful lies, Mark.
>
> Stuart Wilkes
>

Hah-hah-hah! So you weren't sure if it was your mom or not Stuey? You went
to a lot of trouble to check.
Do your batman pajamas have a drop seat and sewn on feet?

Once again we see that you are the world's most boring person. If you can't
talk about your tired old WWII crap, you can't talk about anything.

Turn your PC off Stuey and go get a life!

> > "Stuart Wilkes" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
> > >...
> > > > "Stuart Wilkes" > wrote in message
> > > > om...
> > > > > "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message
> > >...
> > > > > > Stuart Wilkes wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > Wasn't there an embargo placed on shipments of steel between
> > > > > > the two countries, as well as access to oil?
> > > > >
> > > > > Not while the Soviet-Japan border war was going. That ran between
> > > > > 1937 - 1939. The US did not freeze Japanese assets and embargo
scrap
> > > > > steel and oil until 1941.
> > > > >
> > > > > > How does this support your implications?
> > > > >
> > > > > It has nothing to do with them, since the shipments continued
> > > > > throughout the entire Soviet-Japan border war.
> > > >
> > > > No state of war was ever declared,
> > >
> > > A state of war existed. Hence all the tanks going to-and-fro over
> > > various borders.
> > >
> > > > there were a series of border clashes culminating in the battle of
> > > > Khalkin Ghol between May and Sept 1939.
> > >
> > > Border clashes... that inflicted more casualties on the IJA than the
> > > British Armed Forces managed at Singapore. Hm.
> > >
> > > Stuart Wilkes

[Stuart Wilkes]

Mark Brooks > wrote in message >...
> "Stuart Wilkes" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "Stuart Wilkes' mom" > wrote in message
> >...
> > > Stuey,
> > >
> > > It's time to go to bed. Now get your batman pajamas on and turn that
> > > computer off.
> >
> > "Snuffy Smith" NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.192.189.54
> >
> > "Stuart Wilkes' mom" NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.192.189.54
> >
> > Why don't you toddle off and tell some spiteful lies, Mark.
> >
> > Stuart Wilkes
> >
>
> Hah-hah-hah! So you weren't sure if it was your mom or not Stuey?

Your continual ill-tempered spleen-venting and repeated spiteful lies
are a unique signature, Mark. As is the posting host of all your
aliases.

> You went to a lot of trouble to check.

No. It's easy to check. It's a lot harder to munge a dozen e-mail
addresses.

> Do your batman pajamas have a drop seat and sewn on feet?
>
> Once again we see that you are the world's most boring person.

We see that Mark has little better to do than denigrate others. Of
course, being full of bile himself, it's probably the only thing that
prevents him exploding.

> If you can't
> talk about your tired old WWII crap, you can't talk about anything.

The present Russian position with the IMF isn't WWII related.

And it appears that many share my WWII interest.

You showed interest too, until you found me correcting your
poorly-researched howlers and many spiteful lies.

> Turn your PC off Stuey and go get a life!

I'm doing very well with my life.

Which is why I don't spew bile and spiteful lies in newsgroups.

But you clearly have no alternative form of release...

Stuart Wilkes

> > > "Stuart Wilkes" > wrote in message
> > > om...
> > > > "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
> >...
> > > > > "Stuart Wilkes" > wrote in message
> > > > > om...
> > > > > > "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message
> >...
> > > > > > > Stuart Wilkes wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > Wasn't there an embargo placed on shipments of steel between
> > > > > > > the two countries, as well as access to oil?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Not while the Soviet-Japan border war was going. That ran between
> > > > > > 1937 - 1939. The US did not freeze Japanese assets and embargo
> scrap
> > > > > > steel and oil until 1941.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > How does this support your implications?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It has nothing to do with them, since the shipments continued
> > > > > > throughout the entire Soviet-Japan border war.
> > > > >
> > > > > No state of war was ever declared,
> > > >
> > > > A state of war existed. Hence all the tanks going to-and-fro over
> > > > various borders.
> > > >
> > > > > there were a series of border clashes culminating in the battle of
> > > > > Khalkin Ghol between May and Sept 1939.
> > > >
> > > > Border clashes... that inflicted more casualties on the IJA than the
> > > > British Armed Forces managed at Singapore. Hm.
> > > >
> > > > Stuart Wilkes

[Autocollimator]

>Subject: Re: 50% of NAZI oil was supplied from US
>From: (Stuart Wilkes)
>Date: 10/25/03 10:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >

>talk about your tired old WWII crap, you can't talk about anything.
>
>The present Russian position with the IMF isn't WWII related.
>
>And it appears that many share my WWII interest.

I would say that in a thread called Nazi Oil the basic subject IS WW II. If
WW II doesn't interest you,go elsewhere.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Michael Petukhov wrote in message ...
>"Geoffrey Sinclair" > wrote in message >...
>> This will probably appear in the wrong place thanks to a bad
>> news server.
>
>Bad or not that bad. How about this?

Let us see now, instead of answering the problems with the
oil claim the subject is simply changed. Effectively none of
my text makes it to the non reply.

No attempt to explain the appearance of a non existent
Spanish oil refinery, nor why the claimed imports of US
oil do not match the German records, nor Spanish
records, nor why the British would let hundreds of
Spanish tanker sailings full of oil simply sail past
Gibraltar for 4 years of war and so on.

Instead we have a shock horror story of how some people
in the US invested in Germany before and after Hitler came
to power and that some liked his ideas. Then add a whole
lot of accusations. The usual trawl of the internet to find
someone who agrees the earth is flat and that it means we
are really riding on the backs of 4 elephants who are in
turn supported by a great turtle cruising through space.

USSR trade with Germany, million marks, value of German imports
from USSR,

1933 194, 1934 210, 1935 215, 1936 93, 1937 65, 1938 53
1939 30 1940 391.

value of German exports to USSR

1933 282, 1934 63, 1935 39, 1936 126, 1937 117, 1938 34,
1939 31, 1940 216.

Germany's share of USSR foreign trade, percentages,
year / imports / exports

1933 42.5 /18.7
1934 12.4 / 23.5
1935 9.0 / 18.0
1936 22.8 / 8.6
1937 14.9 / 6.2
1938 4.7 / 6.6

Stalin was quite a happy trader with Nazi Germany, despite the
Nazi Government's ideology that called for the destruction of the
USSR, the Nazis did not call for the destruction of the USA.
People do trade.

(snip)

>Among the U.S. corporations that invested in Germany during the 1920s
>were Ford, General Motors, General Electric, Standard Oil, Texaco,
>International Harvester, ITT, and IBM — all of whom were more than
>happy to see the German labor movement and working-class parties
>smashed. For many of these companies, operations in Germany continued
>during the war (even if it meant the use of concentration-camp slave
>labor) with overt U.S. government support. "Pilots were given
>instructions not to hit factories in Germany that were owned by U.S.
>firms," writes Michael Parenti. "Thus Cologne was almost leveled by
>Allied bombing but its Ford plant, providing military equipment for
>the Nazi army, was untouched; indeed, German civilians began using the
>plant as an air raid shelter."

The Ford plant was hit, using a truck plants as an example
ignores the allies largely ignored such factories in their
target selection, they went for aircraft factories, oil and
transport links and the German cities.

Remember the US government paid compensation to the
firms for bomb damage, no need if no damage.

Also blaming US management for what the management did
in Germany while the US was at war with Germany is an
impressive leap in bad logic.

(snip) rest.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

[Keith Willshaw]

"Geoffrey Sinclair" > wrote in message
...
> Michael Petukhov wrote in message ...

>
> The Ford plant was hit, using a truck plants as an example
> ignores the allies largely ignored such factories in their
> target selection, they went for aircraft factories, oil and
> transport links and the German cities.
>

What's amusing about the conspirowhacko sites Michael loves
so much is they always ignore the Opel truck plant,
which was pretty well destroyed by bombing.

Opel was (and still is) owned by General Motors.

Keith

[Michael Petukhov]

"Geoffrey Sinclair" > wrote in message >...
> Michael Petukhov wrote in message ...
> >"Geoffrey Sinclair" > wrote in message >...
> >> This will probably appear in the wrong place thanks to a bad
> >> news server.
> >
> >Bad or not that bad. How about this?
>
> Let us see now, instead of answering the problems with the
> oil claim the subject is simply changed.

Well you could note I do not get salary to answer on all your
claims. You cite one book I cite a couple of others which seem show
very different pictures on the matter discussed. Any one
can decide which version is closer to sad reality, including you
and me. That's all as far as I understand.

Although I do appreciate your contribution and the numbers
you cited. So now I better understand what was US official
line of defence on its supplies to NAZI germany. A good
starting point to look a bit deeper. When and if I find
something extrodinary like yours "non existent Spanish oil
refinery" in Canaries I'll post it, don't worry.

> Effectively none of
> my text makes it to the non reply.

Maybe. Although unfortunately I do not have the book
to decide how objective, selfconsistent and complete is it.

All the best

Michael
>
> No attempt to explain the appearance of a non existent
> Spanish oil refinery, nor why the claimed imports of US
> oil do not match the German records, nor Spanish
> records, nor why the British would let hundreds of
> Spanish tanker sailings full of oil simply sail past
> Gibraltar for 4 years of war and so on.
>
> Instead we have a shock horror story of how some people
> in the US invested in Germany before and after Hitler came
> to power and that some liked his ideas. Then add a whole
> lot of accusations. The usual trawl of the internet to find
> someone who agrees the earth is flat and that it means we
> are really riding on the backs of 4 elephants who are in
> turn supported by a great turtle cruising through space.
>
> USSR trade with Germany, million marks, value of German imports
> from USSR,
>
> 1933 194, 1934 210, 1935 215, 1936 93, 1937 65, 1938 53
> 1939 30 1940 391.
>
> value of German exports to USSR
>
> 1933 282, 1934 63, 1935 39, 1936 126, 1937 117, 1938 34,
> 1939 31, 1940 216.
>
> Germany's share of USSR foreign trade, percentages,
> year / imports / exports
>
> 1933 42.5 /18.7
> 1934 12.4 / 23.5
> 1935 9.0 / 18.0
> 1936 22.8 / 8.6
> 1937 14.9 / 6.2
> 1938 4.7 / 6.6
>
> Stalin was quite a happy trader with Nazi Germany, despite the
> Nazi Government's ideology that called for the destruction of the
> USSR, the Nazis did not call for the destruction of the USA.
> People do trade.
>
> (snip)
>
> >Among the U.S. corporations that invested in Germany during the 1920s
> >were Ford, General Motors, General Electric, Standard Oil, Texaco,
> >International Harvester, ITT, and IBM ? all of whom were more than
> >happy to see the German labor movement and working-class parties
> >smashed. For many of these companies, operations in Germany continued
> >during the war (even if it meant the use of concentration-camp slave
> >labor) with overt U.S. government support. "Pilots were given
> >instructions not to hit factories in Germany that were owned by U.S.
> >firms," writes Michael Parenti. "Thus Cologne was almost leveled by
> >Allied bombing but its Ford plant, providing military equipment for
> >the Nazi army, was untouched; indeed, German civilians began using the
> >plant as an air raid shelter."
>
> The Ford plant was hit, using a truck plants as an example
> ignores the allies largely ignored such factories in their
> target selection, they went for aircraft factories, oil and
> transport links and the German cities.
>
> Remember the US government paid compensation to the
> firms for bomb damage, no need if no damage.
>
> Also blaming US management for what the management did
> in Germany while the US was at war with Germany is an
> impressive leap in bad logic.
>
> (snip) rest.
>
> Geoffrey Sinclair
> Remove the nb for email.

[E. Barry Bruyea]

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 07:37:50 -0000, "Keith Willshaw"
> wrote:

>
>"Geoffrey Sinclair" > wrote in message
...
>> Michael Petukhov wrote in message ...
>
>>
>> The Ford plant was hit, using a truck plants as an example
>> ignores the allies largely ignored such factories in their
>> target selection, they went for aircraft factories, oil and
>> transport links and the German cities.
>>
>
>What's amusing about the conspirowhacko sites Michael loves
>so much is they always ignore the Opel truck plant,
>which was pretty well destroyed by bombing.
>
>Opel was (and still is) owned by General Motors.
>
>Keith


Truck production in Germany was never up to the level as to effect the
conduct or outcome of the war. The Germans used hundreds of thousands
of horses in their invasion of the USSR in 1941 because of their lack
of efficient transport. It got even worse as the war progressed. One
of the chief advantages the Soviets had in their campaign against the
Germans was the tens of thousands of excellent, dependable trucks
shipped to them from the West, which ran well even in the Soviet
Winter. This allowed the Soviets to move vast amounts of men and
materiel faster and more efficiently than the Germans. The Germans
never did grasp the importance of motorized transportation, putting
the priority of the rebuilding or repairing of truck plants behind
that of of the rebuilding of aircraft and tank factories. It is
ironic that the Germans didn't put much effort into building good
shoes for their troops, given they had to do so much walking!!

As a matter of interest, there were about 350,000 trucks and almost
100,000 jeeps (the commissars didn't like walking) shipped to the
Soviets during WWII.

[Keith Willshaw]

"E. Barry Bruyea" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 07:37:50 -0000, "Keith Willshaw"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Geoffrey Sinclair" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Michael Petukhov wrote in message ...
> >
> >>
> >> The Ford plant was hit, using a truck plants as an example
> >> ignores the allies largely ignored such factories in their
> >> target selection, they went for aircraft factories, oil and
> >> transport links and the German cities.
> >>
> >
> >What's amusing about the conspirowhacko sites Michael loves
> >so much is they always ignore the Opel truck plant,
> >which was pretty well destroyed by bombing.
> >
> >Opel was (and still is) owned by General Motors.
> >
> >Keith
>
>
> Truck production in Germany was never up to the level as to effect the
> conduct or outcome of the war. The Germans used hundreds of thousands
> of horses in their invasion of the USSR in 1941 because of their lack
> of efficient transport. It got even worse as the war progressed. One
> of the chief advantages the Soviets had in their campaign against the
> Germans was the tens of thousands of excellent, dependable trucks
> shipped to them from the West, which ran well even in the Soviet
> Winter. This allowed the Soviets to move vast amounts of men and
> materiel faster and more efficiently than the Germans. The Germans
> never did grasp the importance of motorized transportation, putting
> the priority of the rebuilding or repairing of truck plants behind
> that of of the rebuilding of aircraft and tank factories.


Of course the Germans couldnt find adeqaute fuel for the
motorised transport they had so producing more trucks
wasnt a realistic option anyway


> It is
> ironic that the Germans didn't put much effort into building good
> shoes for their troops, given they had to do so much walking!!
>
> As a matter of interest, there were about 350,000 trucks and almost
> 100,000 jeeps (the commissars didn't like walking) shipped to the
> Soviets during WWII.
>

In addition to the 22,000 aircraft (7,400 Commonwealth and 14,500 US)
and 12,750 tanks (5,200 Commonwealth, 7,550 US) and 2000
railway locomotives they got.

Keith

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

This will probably appear in the wrong place thanks to a bad
news server.

Michael Petukhov wrote in message ...
>"Geoffrey Sinclair" > wrote in message >...
>> Michael Petukhov wrote in message ...
>> >"Geoffrey Sinclair" > wrote in message >...
>> >> This will probably appear in the wrong place thanks to a bad
>> >> news server.
>> >
>> >Bad or not that bad. How about this?
>>
>> Let us see now, instead of answering the problems with the
>> oil claim the subject is simply changed.
>
>Well you could note I do not get salary to answer on all your
>claims.

So we can take it as read Michael is paid to post material that
to be true requires a major conspiracy involving the faking of
American, British, French, Spanish and German documentation.
Since the alleged conspiracy requires American oil to Germany
via Spain and France with Britain allowing the tankers to sail
by Gibraltar for years.

>You cite one book I cite a couple of others which seem show
>very different pictures on the matter discussed. Any one
>can decide which version is closer to sad reality, including you
>and me. That's all as far as I understand.

This is really funny, "all care and no responsibility". Michael
cannot defend the version he prefers, but tries to announce
the equivalence of a belief in a flat Earth and a round Earth,
they should be treated equally apparently. By the way what
were "the books" Michael cited?

>Although I do appreciate your contribution and the numbers
>you cited. So now I better understand what was US official
>line of defence on its supplies to NAZI germany.

I see, instead of actually answering the problems about US
oil ending up in Germany during WWII Michael simply
carries on assuming it was true, but cannot actually defend
the article, just change the subject.

>A good
>starting point to look a bit deeper. When and if I find
>something extrodinary like yours "non existent Spanish oil
>refinery" in Canaries I'll post it, don't worry.

Look on the internet, you can find almost anything, just tell
them what you want to believe and it can be supplied.

>> Effectively none of
>> my text makes it to the non reply.
>
>Maybe. Although unfortunately I do not have the book
>to decide how objective, selfconsistent and complete is it.

So please tell us all when you looked at the research and
facts behind the article you quoted to "decide how objective,
selfconsistent and complete is it", or does that only apply
to disliked facts?

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

[B2431]

>From: "Keith Willshaw"
>Date: 10/27/2003 1:37 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Geoffrey Sinclair" > wrote in message
...
>> Michael Petukhov wrote in message ...
>
>>
>> The Ford plant was hit, using a truck plants as an example
>> ignores the allies largely ignored such factories in their
>> target selection, they went for aircraft factories, oil and
>> transport links and the German cities.
>>
>
>What's amusing about the conspirowhacko sites Michael loves
>so much is they always ignore the Opel truck plant,
>which was pretty well destroyed by bombing.
>
>Opel was (and still is) owned by General Motors.
>
>Keith
>
Or DuPont and a few others.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[eravanna]

> > > The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
> > > The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
> > > were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
> > > the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
> > > Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
> > > Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.
> > >
> > > Michael
very smart move on the us part as when we cut the oil off they lost

[E. Barry Bruyea]

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 22:57:57 GMT, "eravanna"
> wrote:

>
>> > > The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
>> > > The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
>> > > were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
>> > > the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
>> > > Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
>> > > Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.
>> > >
>> > > Michael
>very smart move on the us part as when we cut the oil off they lost


It's also pure, unadulterated bull****.
>

[monkey]

E. Barry Bruyea > wrote in message >...
> On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 22:57:57 GMT, "eravanna"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >> > > The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
> >> > > The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
> >> > > were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
> >> > > the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
> >> > > Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
> >> > > Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.
> >> > >
> >> > > Michael
> >very smart move on the us part as when we cut the oil off they lost
>
>
> It's also pure, unadulterated bull****.
> >
yah, you know the funny thing, i'm sure it's true because the good 'ol
US of A will do anything for money, as history has proven time and
again, even if it is against its own stated democratic principles. I'm
sure that lots of businesses made a wad of cash off WWI and WWII and
lots of other wars while allies were dying. The whole argument of
whether or not the nation was a stated ally is bull****. The US knew
what was going on in both wars for years, knew about all the brutal
**** the axis were doing, and basically ignored it and made money off
it for years while other countries were spilling blood to save
themselves.The US will never change. You know, it's completely OK for
the war to go on in Europe but as soon as Pearl harbour, well now it's
a big deal. Just like 9-11. Look at all the nations dealing with
terrorism every day of their lives, then the WTC happens and suddenly
this becomes the greatest atrocity committed, and terrorism is a big
f%^&ing deal. Give me a break. In the big scheme of things, it is a
pretty puny occurrence. To me this oil discussion is a great example
of the american government's traditional policy of downplaying every
tragedy or confict in this world, making money off of it, and then
when it inevitably extends to its border decrying it and making it a
big fricking deal.

[Keith Willshaw]

"monkey" > wrote in message
om...

> > >
> yah, you know the funny thing, i'm sure it's true because the good 'ol
> US of A will do anything for money, as history has proven time and
> again, even if it is against its own stated democratic principles.


So facts are irrelevant - OK

> I'm
> sure that lots of businesses made a wad of cash off WWI and WWII and
> lots of other wars while allies were dying. The whole argument of
> whether or not the nation was a stated ally is bull****. The US knew
> what was going on in both wars for years, knew about all the brutal
> **** the axis were doing, and basically ignored it and made money off
> it for years while other countries were spilling blood to save
> themselves.The US will never change. You know, it's completely OK for
> the war to go on in Europe but as soon as Pearl harbour, well now it's
> a big deal.

So you have dont know that the Lend Lease bill preceded Pearl Harbor
I take it

I suppose the fact that the USN was escorting convoys in the
North Atlantic BEFORE Pearl Harbor is news to you too.

And I imagine you missed the fact that Japan decided to attack
because the US had placed an emargo on sales of oil and
other materials on them because of their aggression in China.

Fact is the USA was providing us in Britain with assistance that went
wway beyond the bounds of neutrality long before the Germans
declared war on them.

Keith

[Peter H. Granzeau]

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:05:59 -0000, "Keith Willshaw"
> wrote:

>So you have dont know that the Lend Lease bill preceded Pearl Harbor
>I take it
>
>I suppose the fact that the USN was escorting convoys in the
>North Atlantic BEFORE Pearl Harbor is news to you too.
>
>And I imagine you missed the fact that Japan decided to attack
>because the US had placed an emargo on sales of oil and
>other materials on them because of their aggression in China.
>
>Fact is the USA was providing us in Britain with assistance that went
>wway beyond the bounds of neutrality long before the Germans
>declared war on them.

All of which are reasons for Germany and Japan to believe that the USA
was hostile. THat wouldn't be the first time that the USA acted at
complete cross purposes to itself, nor the last.

[Keith Willshaw]

"Peter H. Granzeau" > wrote in message
news:UITnb.47706$N94.41594@lakeread02...
> On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:05:59 -0000, "Keith Willshaw"
> > wrote:
>
> >So you have dont know that the Lend Lease bill preceded Pearl Harbor
> >I take it
> >
> >I suppose the fact that the USN was escorting convoys in the
> >North Atlantic BEFORE Pearl Harbor is news to you too.
> >
> >And I imagine you missed the fact that Japan decided to attack
> >because the US had placed an emargo on sales of oil and
> >other materials on them because of their aggression in China.
> >
> >Fact is the USA was providing us in Britain with assistance that went
> >wway beyond the bounds of neutrality long before the Germans
> >declared war on them.
>
> All of which are reasons for Germany and Japan to believe that the USA
> was hostile. THat wouldn't be the first time that the USA acted at
> complete cross purposes to itself, nor the last.

I can certainly understand that Japan and Germany could and did
believe the US was hostile. What I dont see is how that put the
USA at cross purposes with itself.

Do you see an advantage to the US in allowing Japan to
dominate the Pacific and/or Nazi Germany to dominate
Europe ?

Keith

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
(monkey) wrote:

> E. Barry Bruyea > wrote in message
> >...
> > On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 22:57:57 GMT, "eravanna"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >> > > The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
> > >> > > The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
> > >> > > were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
> > >> > > the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
> > >> > > Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
> > >> > > Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Michael
> > >very smart move on the us part as when we cut the oil off they lost
> >
> >
> > It's also pure, unadulterated bull****.
> > >
> yah, you know the funny thing, i'm sure it's true because the good 'ol
> US of A will do anything for money, as history has proven time and
> again, even if it is against its own stated democratic principles.

Now tell us about the trading behavior of Sweden and Switzerland during
WW2.

[The Enlightenment]

(monkey) wrote in message >...
> E. Barry Bruyea > wrote in message >...
> > On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 22:57:57 GMT, "eravanna"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >> > > The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
> > >> > > The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
> > >> > > were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
> > >> > > the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
> > >> > > Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
> > >> > > Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Michael
> > >very smart move on the us part as when we cut the oil off they lost
> >
> >
> > It's also pure, unadulterated bull****.
> > >
> yah, you know the funny thing, i'm sure it's true because the good 'ol
> US of A will do anything for money, as history has proven time and
> again, even if it is against its own stated democratic principles.

Their democratic principles are also national prnciples. Waging war
on behalf of imposing those principles was most definetlyu NOT one of
them.

> I'm
> sure that lots of businesses made a wad of cash off WWI and WWII and
> lots of other wars while allies were dying.

A lote lost a lot. I take you point. Irresponsible elites drag us
into stupid wars.

> The whole argument of
> whether or not the nation was a stated ally is bull****. The US knew
> what was going on in both wars for years, knew about all the brutal
> **** the axis were doing, and basically ignored it and made money off
> it for years while other countries were spilling blood to save
> themselves.

You Can't substantiate that.

Actually one of the reasons the US population was reluctant to enter
the war was because during the frist world war UK disinformation and
propaganda had created a number of serious anti-german allegations
that were expoosed as fraudulent including and not limited to:
1 The Germans were throwing babies into the air and catching them on
Bayonets.
(I believe the Japanese coped this one in WW2 in Malaya as well)
2 The Germans were raping ALL the Belgian women.
3 The Germans were turning Belgian and French corpses into soap.

The disinformation was first used to incite the British people into
war and then to draw the Americans in. ("We could all be Dead in 45
minutes" Tony Blair in parlaiment)

The frauds and docotored photographs were exposed and the British
being rather Gentlemently actualy appologised.

Americans were thus disinclined to be drawn into WW2 or even to
believe the concentration camp stuff after the war. (The soap stuff
certainly is a concoction)


*********************

One of the most most enraging documents in Hansard is the
report of the Commons debate the day before war was
declared
in 1914 and Britain entered the most disastrous conflict
in
its and Europe's history. It is clear from Hansard
that
the grave and novel dangers of entering into a war
with
modern technology were understood by many MPs. Worse,
from
the pathetic evasions of the Foreign Secretary, Sir
Edward
Grey, it is clear that Parliament and consequently
the
British people had been kept in the dark over
secret
agreements between the British and French Governments,
which
obligated Britain to go to war if France was attacked.
And
so off Britain went to war, ostensibly because of an
1839
treaty Britain had signed guaranteeing
Belgium's
sovereignty, but in reality because the British elite of
the
time had committed itself to the French elite without
any
Parliamentary oversight or agreement.



http://64.143.9.197/books/connors/dealinginhate.html

"To make matters still worse, the British foreign secretary, Sir
Edward Grey, even refused to promise British neutrality during the
Franco-German (1st world war) war in return for a German counter
promise to respect Belgian territory!"

The simple truth is that, as Grey later admitted, Britain was so
committed to the support of France by secret agreements that, with or
without the invasion of Belgium, she would have entered the war.
Otherwise he would have felt compelled to resign. Indeed, it is
evident from John Morley's famous Memorandum On Resignation as well as
from the personal assurance of John Burns to Professor Barnes that the
actual decision of the British Cabinet to go to war was made before
the matter of Belgian was even mentioned!"


Can anyone be assure that the follishness of WWI that lead to a
Whit eracial bloodbath has been learned?

************************************************** *************
http://64.143.9.197/books/connors/dealinginhate.html

In this connection, the invasion of "little Belgium" was widely
advertised as a particularly reprehensible though typical
manifestation of a brutal and ruthless German policy. On the other
hand, the entry of Britain into the war for the ostensible purpose of
defending Belgian territorial integrity received almost universal
acclaim. The posture of a crusading knight on a white steed charging
to the defense of the outraged little country was, despite its
essential falsity, assumed with relish and exploited with consummate
skill by pro-British propagandists.

The shabby dishonesty of this posture becomes evident when we realize
that during a Franco-German crisis in 1887, at a time when
Anglo-German relations were most cordial, the British press had openly
and unashamedly discussed the advisability of giving the green light
to the German army to cross Belgium for the purpose of initiating
military operations against France. Finally, the British minister,
Lord Vivian, informed the distraught Belgian government that Belgium
would have to prepare to act alone in such a contingency. As Professor
Langer aptly remarks, "considering all this, it is hardly possible to
take the denials of the British government during the World War very
seriously."

As a further commentary on alleged Allied "idealism" in this matter we
may cite the facts, since uncovered, that the Anglo-French war plans
of 1911, 1912, and 1913 themselves contemplated the violation of
Belgian territorial integrity in certain circumstances that might
arise during a war with Germany!

"To make matters still worse, the British foreign secretary, Sir
Edward Grey, even refused to promise British neutrality during the
Franco-German war in return for a German counter promise to respect
Belgian territory!"

The simple truth is that, as Grey later admitted, Britain was so
committed to the support of France by secret agreements that, with or
without the invasion of Belgium, she would have entered the war.
Otherwise he would have felt compelled to resign. Indeed, it is
evident from John Morley's famous Memorandum On Resignation as well as
from the personal assurance of John Burns to Professor Barnes that the
actual decision of the British Cabinet to go to war was made before
the matter of Belgian was even mentioned!



The Allies, and particularly Great Britain, by contrast, proved
themselves most capable of adroitly manipulating world opinion by
widespread diffusion of fantastic tales of German villainy. Britain,
of course, had the additional technical advantage of control of the
cables and hence could rigidly censor all news coming to America. As
C. Hartley Grattan expressed it, "honest, unbiased news simply
disappeared out of the American papers along about the middle of
August, 1914."44

Incredible tales of German barbarism in Belgium and France gave rise
to a myth of unique German savagery that continues to color the
thinking of many persons to this day. German soldiers, the world was
gravely informed, amused themselves by cutting off the hands of
Belgian babies. Another oft-repeated tale related how German soldiers
amputated the breasts of Belgian women out of sheer viciousness. A
slightly different variation of this story asserted that the
amputation had been carried out by syphilitic Germans who, having
ravished the women, wished to warn their countrymen thereby. There
were persistent rumors about the crucifixion of Canadian soldiers.
Perhaps the most repulsive and widely circulated of these fabrications
was that concerning a German corpse factory where the bodies of both
Allied and German soldiers killed in battle were allegedly melted down
for fats and other products useful to the German war effort. The fact
that Arthur Ponsonby utterly demolished the canard45 did not prevent
the Soviets from charging again at Nuremberg that during World War II
a "Danzig firm ... constructed an electrically heated tank for making
soap out of human fat."46

Atrocity propaganda was immeasurably effective in the United States
during the first World War. When in the American papers of May 11-12,
1915, which was during the very week following the torpedoing of the
Lusitania, there appeared the notorious Bryce Report on alleged German
atrocities, American indignation at Germany reached a blind and
febrile peak. The membership of the Bryce Committee, appointed by
Parliament to investigate reports of alleged German atrocities,
comprised some of the most distinguished jurists and historians in
great Britain. To Americans it seemed that the chairman, Viscount
Bryce, was one Briton who would never offer himself as the tool of
tendentious propaganda. Bryce was a scholar of profound erudition and
was considered by many to be the ablest foreign student of American
government and institutions.

The "proofs" advanced by the Bryce Committee in support of the wildest
tales of German fiendishness, as well as the methods employed in
gathering them, violated every elementary rule of evidence. Careful
non-German scholars, above all Arthur Ponsonby, have long since
demonstrated the entire project to have been a tissue of distortions
and outright falsehoods.47 Evidently, Bryce and his esteemed
colleagues had few qualms about perverting the truth if it redounded
to the benefit of what they termed the "high cause" of Mother England.
In later years other scholars in both Britain and America would
display a similar willingness to prostitute talent and reputation in
the interest of writing vicious propaganda.

The grave consequences of all this lurid atrocity propaganda can
hardly be exaggerated. Indeed, "propaganda" of atrocities ... might be
said to have contributed more than any other single factor to the
making of a severe peace."48 The extreme severity of that peace, it
should be pointed out, provided certain assurance of the rise of
Hitler or someone like him who would beguile the long-suffering and
much-maligned German people with promises to snap the chains of
slavery forged by the untried and unpunished "war criminals" of
Versailles.

[monkey]

Steve Hix > wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> (monkey) wrote:
>
> > E. Barry Bruyea > wrote in message
> > >...
> > > On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 22:57:57 GMT, "eravanna"
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >> > > The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
> > > >> > > The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
> > > >> > > were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
> > > >> > > the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
> > > >> > > Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
> > > >> > > Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Michael
> > > >very smart move on the us part as when we cut the oil off they lost
> > >
> > >
> > > It's also pure, unadulterated bull****.
> > > >
> > yah, you know the funny thing, i'm sure it's true because the good 'ol
> > US of A will do anything for money, as history has proven time and
> > again, even if it is against its own stated democratic principles.
>
> Now tell us about the trading behavior of Sweden and Switzerland during
> WW2.

oh yeah that's right, everything the usa has ever done has been for
the good of the world, sorry that i keep forgetting that it is
ordained by god to rule forever and never does anything wrong (i think
thats what you guys learn in school isn't it?)

[Fred J. McCall]

(monkey) wrote:

:oh yeah that's right, everything the usa has ever done has been for
:the good of the world, sorry that i keep forgetting that it is
:ordained by god to rule forever and never does anything wrong (i think
:thats what you guys learn in school isn't it?)

Too stupid to bother with.

You are the weakest link. Goodbye.

<plonk>


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn

[Autocollimator]

>Subject: Re: 50% of NAZI oil was supplied from US
>From: (monkey)
>Date: 10/29/03 9:30 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id:

>you know the funny thing, i'm sure it's true because the good 'ol
>US of A will do anything for money, as history has proven time and

At least the Republican party will. But be fair. They really need that mney for
more tax cuts for the rich.

[Peter H. Granzeau]

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:55:50 -0000, "Keith Willshaw"
> wrote:

>I can certainly understand that Japan and Germany could and did
>believe the US was hostile. What I dont see is how that put the
>USA at cross purposes with itself.
>
>Do you see an advantage to the US in allowing Japan to
>dominate the Pacific and/or Nazi Germany to dominate
>Europe ?

See the subject of this message thread.

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
(monkey) wrote:

> Steve Hix > wrote in message
> >...
> > In article >,
> > (monkey) wrote:
> >
> > > E. Barry Bruyea > wrote in message
> > > >...
> > > > On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 22:57:57 GMT, "eravanna"
> > > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> > > The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june
> > > > >> > > 44.
> > > > >> > > The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
> > > > >> > > were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New
> > > > >> > > Jersey,
> > > > >> > > the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly
> > > > >> > > via
> > > > >> > > Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating
> > > > >> > > in
> > > > >> > > Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > Michael
> > > > >very smart move on the us part as when we cut the oil off they lost
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > It's also pure, unadulterated bull****.
> > > > >
> > > yah, you know the funny thing, i'm sure it's true because the good 'ol
> > > US of A will do anything for money, as history has proven time and
> > > again, even if it is against its own stated democratic principles.
> >
> > Now tell us about the trading behavior of Sweden and Switzerland during
> > WW2.
>
> oh yeah that's right, everything the usa has ever done has been for
> the good of the world, sorry that i keep forgetting that it is
> ordained by god to rule forever and never does anything wrong (i think
> thats what you guys learn in school isn't it?)

Too bad you couldn't actually answer the question...

[monkey]

(The Enlightenment) wrote in message >...
> (monkey) wrote in message >...
> > E. Barry Bruyea > wrote in message >...
> > > On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 22:57:57 GMT, "eravanna"
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >> > > The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
> > > >> > > The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
> > > >> > > were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
> > > >> > > the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
> > > >> > > Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
> > > >> > > Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Michael
> > > >very smart move on the us part as when we cut the oil off they lost
> > >
> > >
> > > It's also pure, unadulterated bull****.
> > > >
> > yah, you know the funny thing, i'm sure it's true because the good 'ol
> > US of A will do anything for money, as history has proven time and
> > again, even if it is against its own stated democratic principles.
>
> Their democratic principles are also national prnciples. Waging war
> on behalf of imposing those principles was most definetlyu NOT one of
> them.
>
> > I'm
> > sure that lots of businesses made a wad of cash off WWI and WWII and
> > lots of other wars while allies were dying.
>
> A lote lost a lot. I take you point. Irresponsible elites drag us
> into stupid wars.
>
> > The whole argument of
> > whether or not the nation was a stated ally is bull****. The US knew
> > what was going on in both wars for years, knew about all the brutal
> > **** the axis were doing, and basically ignored it and made money off
> > it for years while other countries were spilling blood to save
> > themselves.
>
> You Can't substantiate that.
>
> Actually one of the reasons the US population was reluctant to enter
> the war was because during the frist world war UK disinformation and
> propaganda had created a number of serious anti-german allegations
> that were expoosed as fraudulent including and not limited to:
> 1 The Germans were throwing babies into the air and catching them on
> Bayonets.
> (I believe the Japanese coped this one in WW2 in Malaya as well)
> 2 The Germans were raping ALL the Belgian women.
> 3 The Germans were turning Belgian and French corpses into soap.
>
> The disinformation was first used to incite the British people into
> war and then to draw the Americans in. ("We could all be Dead in 45
> minutes" Tony Blair in parlaiment)
>
> The frauds and docotored photographs were exposed and the British
> being rather Gentlemently actualy appologised.
>
> Americans were thus disinclined to be drawn into WW2 or even to
> believe the concentration camp stuff after the war. (The soap stuff
> certainly is a concoction)
>
>
> *********************
>
> One of the most most enraging documents in Hansard is the
> report of the Commons debate the day before war was
> declared
> in 1914 and Britain entered the most disastrous conflict
> in
> its and Europe's history. It is clear from Hansard
> that
> the grave and novel dangers of entering into a war
> with
> modern technology were understood by many MPs. Worse,
> from
> the pathetic evasions of the Foreign Secretary, Sir
> Edward
> Grey, it is clear that Parliament and consequently
> the
> British people had been kept in the dark over
> secret
> agreements between the British and French Governments,
> which
> obligated Britain to go to war if France was attacked.
> And
> so off Britain went to war, ostensibly because of an
> 1839
> treaty Britain had signed guaranteeing
> Belgium's
> sovereignty, but in reality because the British elite of
> the
> time had committed itself to the French elite without
> any
> Parliamentary oversight or agreement.
>
>
>
> http://64.143.9.197/books/connors/dealinginhate.html
>
> "To make matters still worse, the British foreign secretary, Sir
> Edward Grey, even refused to promise British neutrality during the
> Franco-German (1st world war) war in return for a German counter
> promise to respect Belgian territory!"
>
> The simple truth is that, as Grey later admitted, Britain was so
> committed to the support of France by secret agreements that, with or
> without the invasion of Belgium, she would have entered the war.
> Otherwise he would have felt compelled to resign. Indeed, it is
> evident from John Morley's famous Memorandum On Resignation as well as
> from the personal assurance of John Burns to Professor Barnes that the
> actual decision of the British Cabinet to go to war was made before
> the matter of Belgian was even mentioned!"
>
>
> Can anyone be assure that the follishness of WWI that lead to a
> Whit eracial bloodbath has been learned?
>
> ************************************************** *************
> http://64.143.9.197/books/connors/dealinginhate.html
>
> In this connection, the invasion of "little Belgium" was widely
> advertised as a particularly reprehensible though typical
> manifestation of a brutal and ruthless German policy. On the other
> hand, the entry of Britain into the war for the ostensible purpose of
> defending Belgian territorial integrity received almost universal
> acclaim. The posture of a crusading knight on a white steed charging
> to the defense of the outraged little country was, despite its
> essential falsity, assumed with relish and exploited with consummate
> skill by pro-British propagandists.
>
> The shabby dishonesty of this posture becomes evident when we realize
> that during a Franco-German crisis in 1887, at a time when
> Anglo-German relations were most cordial, the British press had openly
> and unashamedly discussed the advisability of giving the green light
> to the German army to cross Belgium for the purpose of initiating
> military operations against France. Finally, the British minister,
> Lord Vivian, informed the distraught Belgian government that Belgium
> would have to prepare to act alone in such a contingency. As Professor
> Langer aptly remarks, "considering all this, it is hardly possible to
> take the denials of the British government during the World War very
> seriously."
>
> As a further commentary on alleged Allied "idealism" in this matter we
> may cite the facts, since uncovered, that the Anglo-French war plans
> of 1911, 1912, and 1913 themselves contemplated the violation of
> Belgian territorial integrity in certain circumstances that might
> arise during a war with Germany!
>
> "To make matters still worse, the British foreign secretary, Sir
> Edward Grey, even refused to promise British neutrality during the
> Franco-German war in return for a German counter promise to respect
> Belgian territory!"
>
> The simple truth is that, as Grey later admitted, Britain was so
> committed to the support of France by secret agreements that, with or
> without the invasion of Belgium, she would have entered the war.
> Otherwise he would have felt compelled to resign. Indeed, it is
> evident from John Morley's famous Memorandum On Resignation as well as
> from the personal assurance of John Burns to Professor Barnes that the
> actual decision of the British Cabinet to go to war was made before
> the matter of Belgian was even mentioned!
>
>
>
> The Allies, and particularly Great Britain, by contrast, proved
> themselves most capable of adroitly manipulating world opinion by
> widespread diffusion of fantastic tales of German villainy. Britain,
> of course, had the additional technical advantage of control of the
> cables and hence could rigidly censor all news coming to America. As
> C. Hartley Grattan expressed it, "honest, unbiased news simply
> disappeared out of the American papers along about the middle of
> August, 1914."44
>
> Incredible tales of German barbarism in Belgium and France gave rise
> to a myth of unique German savagery that continues to color the
> thinking of many persons to this day. German soldiers, the world was
> gravely informed, amused themselves by cutting off the hands of
> Belgian babies. Another oft-repeated tale related how German soldiers
> amputated the breasts of Belgian women out of sheer viciousness. A
> slightly different variation of this story asserted that the
> amputation had been carried out by syphilitic Germans who, having
> ravished the women, wished to warn their countrymen thereby. There
> were persistent rumors about the crucifixion of Canadian soldiers.
> Perhaps the most repulsive and widely circulated of these fabrications
> was that concerning a German corpse factory where the bodies of both
> Allied and German soldiers killed in battle were allegedly melted down
> for fats and other products useful to the German war effort. The fact
> that Arthur Ponsonby utterly demolished the canard45 did not prevent
> the Soviets from charging again at Nuremberg that during World War II
> a "Danzig firm ... constructed an electrically heated tank for making
> soap out of human fat."46
>
> Atrocity propaganda was immeasurably effective in the United States
> during the first World War. When in the American papers of May 11-12,
> 1915, which was during the very week following the torpedoing of the
> Lusitania, there appeared the notorious Bryce Report on alleged German
> atrocities, American indignation at Germany reached a blind and
> febrile peak. The membership of the Bryce Committee, appointed by
> Parliament to investigate reports of alleged German atrocities,
> comprised some of the most distinguished jurists and historians in
> great Britain. To Americans it seemed that the chairman, Viscount
> Bryce, was one Briton who would never offer himself as the tool of
> tendentious propaganda. Bryce was a scholar of profound erudition and
> was considered by many to be the ablest foreign student of American
> government and institutions.
>
> The "proofs" advanced by the Bryce Committee in support of the wildest
> tales of German fiendishness, as well as the methods employed in
> gathering them, violated every elementary rule of evidence. Careful
> non-German scholars, above all Arthur Ponsonby, have long since
> demonstrated the entire project to have been a tissue of distortions
> and outright falsehoods.47 Evidently, Bryce and his esteemed
> colleagues had few qualms about perverting the truth if it redounded
> to the benefit of what they termed the "high cause" of Mother England.
> In later years other scholars in both Britain and America would
> display a similar willingness to prostitute talent and reputation in
> the interest of writing vicious propaganda.
>
> The grave consequences of all this lurid atrocity propaganda can
> hardly be exaggerated. Indeed, "propaganda" of atrocities ... might be
> said to have contributed more than any other single factor to the
> making of a severe peace."48 The extreme severity of that peace, it
> should be pointed out, provided certain assurance of the rise of
> Hitler or someone like him who would beguile the long-suffering and
> much-maligned German people with promises to snap the chains of
> slavery forged by the untried and unpunished "war criminals" of
> Versailles.

sorry guys unlike some people i guess i have a life that exists
somewhere other than on the internet...i don't have the time to get
dragged into monotonous debate.

[David D.]

On 31 Oct 2003 12:47:35 -0800, (monkey) wrote:

>> > The whole argument of
>> > whether or not the nation was a stated ally is bull****. The US knew
>> > what was going on in both wars for years, knew about all the brutal
>> > **** the axis were doing, and basically ignored it and made money off
>> > it for years while other countries were spilling blood to save
>> > themselves.

Well, the US is isolationist since long and it was not in his
interests to enter war. In wwI, it became only when France & UK were
on the edge of losing and thus being unable to pay their huge loans...
which would have means the end of very large americans banks.
Woodrow Wilson was elected by his promises to not enter war

Nobody ever entered war for nice emotions. France commited troops for
1776 independance war especially because Vergennes (the foreign
relations minister) hated Great Britiain and to take revenge for the
lose of Quebec during the seven years war.


>> Actually one of the reasons the US population was reluctant to enter
>> the war was because during the frist world war UK disinformation and
>> propaganda had created a number of serious anti-german allegations
>> that were expoosed as fraudulent including and not limited to:

Which is very comprehensive, especially since the horrors of wwI.

>> which obligated Britain to go to war if France was attacked.
>> And so off Britain went to war, ostensibly because of an
>> 1839 treaty Britain had signed guaranteeing
>> Belgium's sovereignty, but in reality because the British elite of
>> the time had committed itself to the French elite without
>> any Parliamentary oversight or agreement.

Uk was also very committed in fighting any dominant power who could
take lead of Europe by war, and this since Napoleon. In 1900, and even
before, it was clear than Germany was strong enougth to take the
continent by force. That's why they made an alliance with France.
But basically, UK wasn't drained in the war by France, it was the
result of a policy of security... who unfortunatly backfired for all
country at this time.

>> Incredible tales of German barbarism in Belgium and France gave rise
>> to a myth of unique German savagery that continues to color the
>> thinking of many persons to this day. German soldiers, the world was
>> gravely informed, amused themselves by cutting off the hands of
>> Belgian babies.

Remind me the story of iraqies soldiers killing babies in hospitals...
I liked the idea of crucifiction of canadian soldiers, but don't ask
me why.

[BobTrent]

The NSDAP may not have been popular with the Kriegsmarine, but like good soldiers they obeyed orders from the politicians currently in office.

The "Nazis" didn't usually call themselves "Nazis" but National Socialists (Nationalsozialisten).

(Michael Petukhov) wrote in message[color=blue][i]
om...[color=green][i]
http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=16866&lang=ru

It isnt even accurate to call them Nazi subs either, since the German Navy was
not a big fan of the Nazis at all.


Ron
Pilot/Wildland Firefighter