Radio Call Entering Holding

[Dennis Johnson]

With help from the people on this newsgroup, I'm happy to announce that I
passed my IPC!

One thing that came up on my flight was that I didn't announce that I was
entering holding and my altitude.

The 2006 AIM 5-3-3 a. 1. (f) requires reporting to ATC, whether in radar
contact or not, "The time and altitude...upon reaching a holding fix..."

However, the FAA's "Instrument Flying Handbook" FAA-H-8083-15, dated 2001,
says on page10-8 that a report entering holding is not required if in radar
contact.

Obviously, they contradict each other. I told the instructor pilot that I
had chosen to go with the "Instrument Flying Handbook" version and not make
a report to ATC because it seemed to me that if I was in radar contact, the
controller would see it happening.

So, what do you think? Which FAA book is wrong? Why does the controller
need reminding that I'm entering holding when I'm in radar contact?

Thanks,
Dennis

[Jim Macklin]

Rules and procedures change, they are not static.

Your answer is in the dates you cited.


"Dennis Johnson" > wrote in message
. ..
| With help from the people on this newsgroup, I'm happy to
announce that I
| passed my IPC!
|
| One thing that came up on my flight was that I didn't
announce that I was
| entering holding and my altitude.
|
| The 2006 AIM 5-3-3 a. 1. (f) requires reporting to ATC,
whether in radar
| contact or not, "The time and altitude...upon reaching a
holding fix..."
|
| However, the FAA's "Instrument Flying Handbook"
FAA-H-8083-15, dated 2001,
| says on page10-8 that a report entering holding is not
required if in radar
| contact.
|
| Obviously, they contradict each other. I told the
instructor pilot that I
| had chosen to go with the "Instrument Flying Handbook"
version and not make
| a report to ATC because it seemed to me that if I was in
radar contact, the
| controller would see it happening.
|
| So, what do you think? Which FAA book is wrong? Why does
the controller
| need reminding that I'm entering holding when I'm in radar
contact?
|
| Thanks,
| Dennis
|
|

[Mark Hansen]

On 10/01/07 11:44, Dennis Johnson wrote:
> With help from the people on this newsgroup, I'm happy to announce that I
> passed my IPC!
>
> One thing that came up on my flight was that I didn't announce that I was
> entering holding and my altitude.
>
> The 2006 AIM 5-3-3 a. 1. (f) requires reporting to ATC, whether in radar
> contact or not, "The time and altitude...upon reaching a holding fix..."
>
> However, the FAA's "Instrument Flying Handbook" FAA-H-8083-15, dated 2001,
> says on page10-8 that a report entering holding is not required if in radar
> contact.

Hmmm, 2001 - that's pretty old. There's a 2007 version out there. In that
section, here is what it said under the 'At all times' category:

f) The time and altitude upon reaching a holding fix
or point to which cleared

g) When leaving any assigned holding fix or point

NOTE - The reports in (f) and (g) may be omitted
by pilots of aircraft involved in instrument
training at military terminal area facilities when
radar service is being provided.

So maybe it's time to get the new book?

>
> Obviously, they contradict each other. I told the instructor pilot that I
> had chosen to go with the "Instrument Flying Handbook" version and not make
> a report to ATC because it seemed to me that if I was in radar contact, the
> controller would see it happening.
>
> So, what do you think? Which FAA book is wrong? Why does the controller
> need reminding that I'm entering holding when I'm in radar contact?
>
> Thanks,
> Dennis
>
>



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Bob Gardner]

I have noticed over the years that many pilots assume that the controller is
watching their data block like a hawk, ready to pick up any error,
diversion, or navigational situation. Tain't so. Once the controller has
transmitted the holding instructions and you have acknowledged them, he or
she assumes that you are going to carry them out and switches to watching
other traffic. Speak up.

Bob Gardner

"Dennis Johnson" > wrote in message
. ..
> With help from the people on this newsgroup, I'm happy to announce that I
> passed my IPC!
>
> One thing that came up on my flight was that I didn't announce that I was
> entering holding and my altitude.
>
> The 2006 AIM 5-3-3 a. 1. (f) requires reporting to ATC, whether in radar
> contact or not, "The time and altitude...upon reaching a holding fix..."
>
> However, the FAA's "Instrument Flying Handbook" FAA-H-8083-15, dated 2001,
> says on page10-8 that a report entering holding is not required if in
> radar contact.
>
> Obviously, they contradict each other. I told the instructor pilot that I
> had chosen to go with the "Instrument Flying Handbook" version and not
> make a report to ATC because it seemed to me that if I was in radar
> contact, the controller would see it happening.
>
> So, what do you think? Which FAA book is wrong? Why does the controller
> need reminding that I'm entering holding when I'm in radar contact?
>
> Thanks,
> Dennis
>

[Newps]

Dennis Johnson wrote:


> So, what do you think? Which FAA book is wrong? Why does the controller
> need reminding that I'm entering holding when I'm in radar contact?
>

A radar controller never needs to know you have entered holding. A
useless call. If he needs a report of any kind he will ask.

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
"Dennis Johnson" > wrote:

> So, what do you think? Which FAA book is wrong? Why does the controller
> need reminding that I'm entering holding when I'm in radar contact?

The controller told you to hold, and he's watching you hold on radar. He
doesn't need you to report entering the hold. If you follow much of what
the AIM tells you to do, you'll be assured of being up to the minute on the
latest 1950's procedures.

[Bob Gardner]

I would think that a pilot on a checkride or IPC would be well advised to
follow provisions of the AIM.

Bob Gardner

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Dennis Johnson" > wrote:
>
>> So, what do you think? Which FAA book is wrong? Why does the controller
>> need reminding that I'm entering holding when I'm in radar contact?
>
> The controller told you to hold, and he's watching you hold on radar. He
> doesn't need you to report entering the hold. If you follow much of what
> the AIM tells you to do, you'll be assured of being up to the minute on
> the
> latest 1950's procedures.

[B]

Roy Smith wrote:

> In article >,
> "Dennis Johnson" > wrote:
>
>
>>So, what do you think? Which FAA book is wrong? Why does the controller
>>need reminding that I'm entering holding when I'm in radar contact?
>
>
> The controller told you to hold, and he's watching you hold on radar. He
> doesn't need you to report entering the hold. If you follow much of what
> the AIM tells you to do, you'll be assured of being up to the minute on the
> latest 1950's procedures.

You indeed follow the AIM. Having said that, controllers don't usually
watch holding patterns.

[Jim Macklin]

The AIM states that when there is a variance between the AIM
and the FAR, follow the current FAR.



"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
. ..
|I would think that a pilot on a checkride or IPC would be
well advised to
| follow provisions of the AIM.
|
| Bob Gardner
|
| "Roy Smith" > wrote in message
| ...
| > In article
>,
| > "Dennis Johnson" > wrote:
| >
| >> So, what do you think? Which FAA book is wrong? Why
does the controller
| >> need reminding that I'm entering holding when I'm in
radar contact?
| >
| > The controller told you to hold, and he's watching you
hold on radar. He
| > doesn't need you to report entering the hold. If you
follow much of what
| > the AIM tells you to do, you'll be assured of being up
to the minute on
| > the
| > latest 1950's procedures.
|

[Mark Hansen]

On 10/02/07 08:29, Jim Macklin wrote:
> The AIM states that when there is a variance between the AIM
> and the FAR, follow the current FAR.

Is there a variance in this case?

>
>
>
> "Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
> . ..
> |I would think that a pilot on a checkride or IPC would be
> well advised to
> | follow provisions of the AIM.
> |
> | Bob Gardner
> |
> | "Roy Smith" > wrote in message
> | ...
> | > In article
> >,
> | > "Dennis Johnson" > wrote:
> | >
> | >> So, what do you think? Which FAA book is wrong? Why
> does the controller
> | >> need reminding that I'm entering holding when I'm in
> radar contact?
> | >
> | > The controller told you to hold, and he's watching you
> hold on radar. He
> | > doesn't need you to report entering the hold. If you
> follow much of what
> | > the AIM tells you to do, you'll be assured of being up
> to the minute on
> | > the
> | > latest 1950's procedures.
> |
>
>



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Jim Macklin]

The OP cited dates 2001 and 2005 if I recall correctly. The
reference was to an old FAA training handbook and a newer
AIM.

Reporting is not required unless the report is asked for by
ATC, otherwise just listen.




e-CFR Data is current as of September 28, 2007




Title 14: Aeronautics and Space
PART 91-GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES
Subpart B-Flight Rules
Instrument Flight Rules


Browse Previous | Browse Next


§ 91.183 IFR communications.
Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, the pilot in command of
each aircraft operated under IFR in controlled airspace must
ensure that a continuous watch is maintained on the
appropriate frequency and must report the following as soon
as possible-

(a) The time and altitude of passing each designated
reporting point, or the reporting points specified by ATC,
except that while the aircraft is under radar control, only
the passing of those reporting points specifically requested
by ATC need be reported;

(b) Any unforecast weather conditions encountered; and

(c) Any other information relating to the safety of flight.

[Doc. No. 18334, 54 FR 34294, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by
Amdt. 91-296, 72 FR 31679, June 7, 2007]

"Dennis Johnson" > wrote in message
. ..
| With help from the people on this newsgroup, I'm happy to
announce that I
| passed my IPC!
|
| One thing that came up on my flight was that I didn't
announce that I was
| entering holding and my altitude.
|
| The 2006 AIM 5-3-3 a. 1. (f) requires reporting to ATC,
whether in radar
| contact or not, "The time and altitude...upon reaching a
holding fix..."
|
| However, the FAA's "Instrument Flying Handbook"
FAA-H-8083-15, dated 2001,
| says on page10-8 that a report entering holding is not
required if in radar
| contact.
|
| Obviously, they contradict each other. I told the
instructor pilot that I
| had chosen to go with the "Instrument Flying Handbook"
version and not make
| a report to ATC because it seemed to me that if I was in
radar contact, the
| controller would see it happening.
|
| So, what do you think? Which FAA book is wrong? Why does
the controller
| need reminding that I'm entering holding when I'm in radar
contact?
|
| Thanks,
| Dennis
|
|



"Mark Hansen" > wrote in message
...
| On 10/02/07 08:29, Jim Macklin wrote:
| > The AIM states that when there is a variance between the
AIM
| > and the FAR, follow the current FAR.
|
| Is there a variance in this case?
|
| >
| >
| >
| > "Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
| > . ..
| > |I would think that a pilot on a checkride or IPC would
be
| > well advised to
| > | follow provisions of the AIM.
| > |
| > | Bob Gardner
| > |
| > | "Roy Smith" > wrote in message
| > | ...
| > | > In article
| > >,
| > | > "Dennis Johnson" > wrote:
| > | >
| > | >> So, what do you think? Which FAA book is wrong?
Why
| > does the controller
| > | >> need reminding that I'm entering holding when I'm
in
| > radar contact?
| > | >
| > | > The controller told you to hold, and he's watching
you
| > hold on radar. He
| > | > doesn't need you to report entering the hold. If
you
| > follow much of what
| > | > the AIM tells you to do, you'll be assured of being
up
| > to the minute on
| > | > the
| > | > latest 1950's procedures.
| > |
| >
| >
|
|
|
| --
| Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight
Pilot
| Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
| Sacramento, CA

[Mark Hansen]

On 10/02/07 08:53, Jim Macklin wrote:
> The OP cited dates 2001 and 2005 if I recall correctly. The
> reference was to an old FAA training handbook and a newer
> AIM.
>
> Reporting is not required unless the report is asked for by
> ATC, otherwise just listen.

Hmmm, it seems the current FAR doesn't even agree with the current
Instrument Flying Handbook.

Well ... the FARs win ;-)

I guess the OP should to go back to his IPC check instructor and have
him/her explain FAR 91.183 (a).

[B]

Jim Macklin wrote:
> The OP cited dates 2001 and 2005 if I recall correctly. The
> reference was to an old FAA training handbook and a newer
> AIM.
>
> Reporting is not required unless the report is asked for by
> ATC, otherwise just listen.
>
>
>
>
> e-CFR Data is current as of September 28, 2007
>
>
>
>
> Title 14: Aeronautics and Space
> PART 91-GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES
> Subpart B-Flight Rules
> Instrument Flight Rules
>
>
> Browse Previous | Browse Next
>
>
> § 91.183 IFR communications.
> Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, the pilot in command of
> each aircraft operated under IFR in controlled airspace must
> ensure that a continuous watch is maintained on the
> appropriate frequency and must report the following as soon
> as possible-
>
> (a) The time and altitude of passing each designated
> reporting point, or the reporting points specified by ATC,
> except that while the aircraft is under radar control, only
> the passing of those reporting points specifically requested
> by ATC need be reported;
>
> (b) Any unforecast weather conditions encountered; and
>
> (c) Any other information relating to the safety of flight.
>

(b) and (c) tie directly to AIM 5-5-3. Language like this is
"directive" and non-compliance is considered any violation of 91.183 (b)
or (c).

Failure to report the FAF inbound when non-radar has been successfully
prosecuted by the feds more than once:

5-3-3. Additional Reports
a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without
a specific ATC request:
1. At all times.
(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a
newly assigned altitude or flight level.
(b) When an altitude change will be made if operating on a clearance
specifying VFR-on-top.
(c) When unable to climb/descend at a rate of a least 500 feet per minute.
(d) When approach has been missed. (Request clearance for specific
action; i.e., to alternative airport, another approach, etc.)
(e) Change in the average true airspeed (at cruising altitude) when it
varies by 5 percent or 10 knots (whichever is greater) from that filed
in the flight plan.
(f) The time and altitude or flight level upon reaching a holding fix or
point to which cleared.
(g) When leaving any assigned holding fix or point.
NOTE-
The reports in subparagraphs (f) and (g) may be omitted by pilots of
aircraft involved in instrument training at military terminal area
facilities when radar service is being provided.
(h) Any loss, in controlled airspace, of VOR, TACAN, ADF, low frequency
navigation receiver capability, GPS anomalies while using installed
IFR-certified GPS/GNSS receivers, complete or partial loss of ILS
receiver capability or impairment of air/ground communications
capability. Reports should include aircraft identification, equipment
affected, degree to which the capability to operate under IFR in the ATC
system is impaired, and the nature and extent of assistance desired from
ATC.
NOTE-
1. Other equipment installed in an aircraft may effectively impair
safety and/or the ability to operate under IFR. If such equipment (e.g.,
airborne weather radar) malfunctions and in the pilot’s judgment either
safety or IFR capabilities are affected, reports should be made as above.
2. When reporting GPS anomalies, include the location and altitude of
the anomaly. Be specific when describing the location and include
duration of the anomaly if necessary.
(i) Any information relating to the safety of flight.
2. When not in radar contact.
(a) When leaving final approach fix inbound on final approach
(nonprecision approach) or when leaving the outer marker or fix used in
lieu of the outer marker inbound on final approach (precision approach).
(b) A corrected estimate at anytime it becomes apparent that an estimate
as previously submitted is in error in excess of 3 minutes.
b. Pilots encountering weather conditions which have not been forecast,
or hazardous conditions which have been forecast, are expected to
forward a report of such weather to ATC.
REFERENCE-
AIM, Pilot Weather Reports (PIREPs), Paragraph 7-1-20.
14 CFR Section 91.183(B) and (C).

[Jim Macklin]

Certainly, failing to report when not in radar contact is a
violation and is not the procedure in the OP post.


"B" > wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| > The OP cited dates 2001 and 2005 if I recall correctly.
The
| > reference was to an old FAA training handbook and a
newer
| > AIM.
| >
| > Reporting is not required unless the report is asked for
by
| > ATC, otherwise just listen.
| >
| >
| >
| >
| > e-CFR Data is current as of September 28, 2007
| >
| >
| >
| >
| > Title 14: Aeronautics and Space
| > PART 91-GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES
| > Subpart B-Flight Rules
| > Instrument Flight Rules
| >
| >
| > Browse Previous | Browse Next
| >
| >
| > § 91.183 IFR communications.
| > Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, the pilot in command
of
| > each aircraft operated under IFR in controlled airspace
must
| > ensure that a continuous watch is maintained on the
| > appropriate frequency and must report the following as
soon
| > as possible-
| >
| > (a) The time and altitude of passing each designated
| > reporting point, or the reporting points specified by
ATC,
| > except that while the aircraft is under radar control,
only
| > the passing of those reporting points specifically
requested
| > by ATC need be reported;
| >
| > (b) Any unforecast weather conditions encountered; and
| >
| > (c) Any other information relating to the safety of
flight.
| >
|
| (b) and (c) tie directly to AIM 5-5-3. Language like this
is
| "directive" and non-compliance is considered any violation
of 91.183 (b)
| or (c).
|
| Failure to report the FAF inbound when non-radar has been
successfully
| prosecuted by the feds more than once:
|
| 5-3-3. Additional Reports
| a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS
facilities without
| a specific ATC request:
| 1. At all times.
| (a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or
flight level for a
| newly assigned altitude or flight level.
| (b) When an altitude change will be made if operating on a
clearance
| specifying VFR-on-top.
| (c) When unable to climb/descend at a rate of a least 500
feet per minute.
| (d) When approach has been missed. (Request clearance for
specific
| action; i.e., to alternative airport, another approach,
etc.)
| (e) Change in the average true airspeed (at cruising
altitude) when it
| varies by 5 percent or 10 knots (whichever is greater)
from that filed
| in the flight plan.
| (f) The time and altitude or flight level upon reaching a
holding fix or
| point to which cleared.
| (g) When leaving any assigned holding fix or point.
| NOTE-
| The reports in subparagraphs (f) and (g) may be omitted by
pilots of
| aircraft involved in instrument training at military
terminal area
| facilities when radar service is being provided.
| (h) Any loss, in controlled airspace, of VOR, TACAN, ADF,
low frequency
| navigation receiver capability, GPS anomalies while using
installed
| IFR-certified GPS/GNSS receivers, complete or partial loss
of ILS
| receiver capability or impairment of air/ground
communications
| capability. Reports should include aircraft
identification, equipment
| affected, degree to which the capability to operate under
IFR in the ATC
| system is impaired, and the nature and extent of
assistance desired from
| ATC.
| NOTE-
| 1. Other equipment installed in an aircraft may
effectively impair
| safety and/or the ability to operate under IFR. If such
equipment (e.g.,
| airborne weather radar) malfunctions and in the pilot’s
judgment either
| safety or IFR capabilities are affected, reports should be
made as above.
| 2. When reporting GPS anomalies, include the location and
altitude of
| the anomaly. Be specific when describing the location and
include
| duration of the anomaly if necessary.
| (i) Any information relating to the safety of flight.
| 2. When not in radar contact.
| (a) When leaving final approach fix inbound on final
approach
| (nonprecision approach) or when leaving the outer marker
or fix used in
| lieu of the outer marker inbound on final approach
(precision approach).
| (b) A corrected estimate at anytime it becomes apparent
that an estimate
| as previously submitted is in error in excess of 3
minutes.
| b. Pilots encountering weather conditions which have not
been forecast,
| or hazardous conditions which have been forecast, are
expected to
| forward a report of such weather to ATC.
| REFERENCE-
| AIM, Pilot Weather Reports (PIREPs), Paragraph 7-1-20.
| 14 CFR Section 91.183(B) and (C).

[[email protected]]

Stick around long enough and you will find many things like this -
crap that doesn't amount to a hill of beans to ATC but anal-retentive
instructors and examiners hold sacred. Other examples are
parallel-teardrop-direct entries and racetrack patterns with one
minute inbound legs. There are many more. They are passed from
generation to generation, no matter how much things change.

With experience, you will be able to separate the crap from the
meaningful. Attend lots of Wings meetings whenever ATC controllers
are present and talk to them. Take what you hear from instructors
with a grain of salt. Most of them (especially the young ones) are
Typhoid Marys.








On Mon, 1 Oct 2007 11:44:30 -0700, "Dennis Johnson"
> wrote:

>With help from the people on this newsgroup, I'm happy to announce that I
>passed my IPC!
>
>One thing that came up on my flight was that I didn't announce that I was
>entering holding and my altitude.
>
>The 2006 AIM 5-3-3 a. 1. (f) requires reporting to ATC, whether in radar
>contact or not, "The time and altitude...upon reaching a holding fix..."
>
>However, the FAA's "Instrument Flying Handbook" FAA-H-8083-15, dated 2001,
>says on page10-8 that a report entering holding is not required if in radar
>contact.
>
>Obviously, they contradict each other. I told the instructor pilot that I
>had chosen to go with the "Instrument Flying Handbook" version and not make
>a report to ATC because it seemed to me that if I was in radar contact, the
>controller would see it happening.
>
>So, what do you think? Which FAA book is wrong? Why does the controller
>need reminding that I'm entering holding when I'm in radar contact?
>
>Thanks,
>Dennis
>

[B]

wrote:
> Stick around long enough and you will find many things like this -
> crap that doesn't amount to a hill of beans to ATC but anal-retentive
> instructors and examiners hold sacred. Other examples are
> parallel-teardrop-direct entries and racetrack patterns with one
> minute inbound legs. There are many more. They are passed from
> generation to generation, no matter how much things change.
>

Do you fly jets?