German Anti-Shipping Rocket

[Thomas W Ping]

I could've sworn that a couple of years ago, I read somewhere of a
German rocket powered (don't *think* it was an air breather), possibly
radio controlled, air launched (H-111H variant?) anti-shipping missile
that saw a *bit* of use toward the end of WWII. I can't, for the life
of me, come up with anything via Google. Did I dream this?

--
Thomas Winston Ping

[Thomas W Ping]

Thomas W Ping wrote:

> I could've sworn that a couple of years ago, I read somewhere of a
> German rocket powered (don't *think* it was an air breather), possibly
> radio controlled, air launched (H-111H variant?) anti-shipping missile
> that saw a *bit* of use toward the end of WWII. I can't, for the life
> of me, come up with anything via Google. Did I dream this?

<piggybacking on my own message>

Naturally, a matter of minutes after posting this question, I found what
I was thinking about: the Fritz X missle.

--
Thomas Winston Ping

[phil hunt]

On 25 Oct 2003 00:20:49 GMT, Thomas W Ping > wrote:
>Thomas W Ping wrote:
>
>> I could've sworn that a couple of years ago, I read somewhere of a
>> German rocket powered (don't *think* it was an air breather), possibly
>> radio controlled, air launched (H-111H variant?) anti-shipping missile
>> that saw a *bit* of use toward the end of WWII. I can't, for the life
>> of me, come up with anything via Google. Did I dream this?
>
><piggybacking on my own message>
>
>Naturally, a matter of minutes after posting this question, I found what
>I was thinking about: the Fritz X missle.

There was also the Hs 293.

Both were used mostly in the middle of the war, 1943, in the
mediterranean.

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: >, but first subtract 275 and reverse
the last two letters).

[Gordon]

I have a signed photo of the pilot of the Dornier getting the Knights Cross for
spearing the Roma with the Fritz X glide bomb.

"These first true guided missiles, by current definition, are virtually unknown
today. They were Henschel's Hs 293A and Ruhrstahl's SD1400X, known as "Fritz
X." Both missiles were air-launched from mother bombers and radio-controlled
primarily against maritime targets. It is interesting to note that of the
fifteen battleships lost to airpower (seven in the open sea) one of these, the
41,650-ton Italian flagship, Roma, was sunk by a Fritz X. Later, the British
battleship, Warspite, was hit by a Fritz X and put out of action for six
months. Fritz Xs also sunk the Royal Navy light cruiser, Spartan, heavily
damaged the cruiser USS Savannah, and hit the cruiser USS Philadelphia. The
Hs-293, meanwhile, was responsible for military history's first successful
guided missile attack sinking the British sloop, Egret, on 27 August 1943."

http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/rpav_germany_hr.html

v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."

[Thomas W Ping]

Gordon wrote:

> I have a signed photo of the pilot of the Dornier getting the Knights Cross for
> spearing the Roma with the Fritz X glide bomb.

That's *way* cool.

> "These first true guided missiles, by current definition, are virtually unknown
> today. They were Henschel's Hs 293A and Ruhrstahl's SD1400X, known as "Fritz
> X." Both missiles were air-launched from mother bombers and radio-controlled
> primarily against maritime targets. It is interesting to note that of the
> fifteen battleships lost to airpower (seven in the open sea) one of these, the
> 41,650-ton Italian flagship, Roma, was sunk by a Fritz X. Later, the British
> battleship, Warspite, was hit by a Fritz X and put out of action for six
> months. Fritz Xs also sunk the Royal Navy light cruiser, Spartan, heavily
> damaged the cruiser USS Savannah, and hit the cruiser USS Philadelphia. The
> Hs-293, meanwhile, was responsible for military history's first successful
> guided missile attack sinking the British sloop, Egret, on 27 August 1943."

> http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/rpav_germany_hr.html

Superb link! Thanks a ton, Gordon.

--
Thomas Winston Ping

[Gordon]

>Superb link! Thanks a ton

No problem, Thomas. I looked 'im up - Bernard Jopp, Dornier 215 squadron
commander. The other photo he sent me was taken upon landing - Jopp had just
deplaned and was in the middle of being heartily congratulated by his fellow
aircrews. A single moment in history, when iron bombs saw the use of their
first true replacement, a guided weapon.

v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."

[phil hunt]

On 25 Oct 2003 04:00:44 GMT, Gordon > wrote:
>I have a signed photo of the pilot of the Dornier getting the Knights Cross for
>spearing the Roma with the Fritz X glide bomb.
>
>"These first true guided missiles, by current definition, are virtually unknown
>today. They were Henschel's Hs 293A and Ruhrstahl's SD1400X, known as "Fritz
>X." Both missiles were air-launched from mother bombers and radio-controlled
>primarily against maritime targets. It is interesting to note that of the
>fifteen battleships lost to airpower (seven in the open sea) one of these, the
>41,650-ton Italian flagship, Roma, was sunk by a Fritz X. Later, the British
>battleship, Warspite, was hit by a Fritz X and put out of action for six
>months. Fritz Xs also sunk the Royal Navy light cruiser, Spartan, heavily
>damaged the cruiser USS Savannah, and hit the cruiser USS Philadelphia. The
>Hs-293, meanwhile, was responsible for military history's first successful
>guided missile attack sinking the British sloop, Egret, on 27 August 1943."

There's an article on Wikipedia about Fritz X, Hs 293, and related
missile projects, at:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_missiles_of_WW2>

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: >, but first subtract 275 and reverse
the last two letters).

[Matt Wiser]

Thomas W Ping > wrote:
>Gordon wrote:
>
>> I have a signed photo of the pilot of the
>Dornier getting the Knights Cross for
>> spearing the Roma with the Fritz X glide bomb.
>
>That's *way* cool.
>
>> "These first true guided missiles, by current
>definition, are virtually unknown
>> today. They were Henschel's Hs 293A and Ruhrstahl's
>SD1400X, known as "Fritz
>> X." Both missiles were air-launched from mother
>bombers and radio-controlled
>> primarily against maritime targets. It is
>interesting to note that of the
>> fifteen battleships lost to airpower (seven
>in the open sea) one of these, the
>> 41,650-ton Italian flagship, Roma, was sunk
>by a Fritz X. Later, the British
>> battleship, Warspite, was hit by a Fritz X
>and put out of action for six
>> months. Fritz Xs also sunk the Royal Navy
>light cruiser, Spartan, heavily
>> damaged the cruiser USS Savannah, and hit
>the cruiser USS Philadelphia. The
>> Hs-293, meanwhile, was responsible for military
>history's first successful
>> guided missile attack sinking the British
>sloop, Egret, on 27 August 1943."
>
>> http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/rpav_germany_hr.html
>
>Superb link! Thanks a ton, Gordon.
>
>--
>Thomas Winston Ping
How did the Fritz-X and Hs-293 operators guide the weapon to the target?
There had to be some flare or other cue on the bomb to tell the bombardier
where the weapon was in relation to the target.

Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

[Thomas W Ping]

phil hunt wrote:

> On 25 Oct 2003 00:20:49 GMT, Thomas W Ping > wrote:
>>Thomas W Ping wrote:

>>> I could've sworn that a couple of years ago, I read somewhere of a
>>> German rocket powered (don't *think* it was an air breather), possibly
>>> radio controlled, air launched (H-111H variant?) anti-shipping missile
>>> that saw a *bit* of use toward the end of WWII. I can't, for the life
>>> of me, come up with anything via Google. Did I dream this?

>><piggybacking on my own message>

>>Naturally, a matter of minutes after posting this question, I found what
>>I was thinking about: the Fritz X missle.

> There was also the Hs 293.

> Both were used mostly in the middle of the war, 1943, in the
> mediterranean.

Yep. Found a lot of stuff on those, too. Fascinating stuff.

--
Thomas Winston Ping

[ANDREW ROBERT BREEN]

In article >,
Thomas W Ping > wrote:
>I could've sworn that a couple of years ago, I read somewhere of a
>German rocket powered (don't *think* it was an air breather), possibly
>radio controlled, air launched (H-111H variant?) anti-shipping missile
>that saw a *bit* of use toward the end of WWII. I can't, for the life
>of me, come up with anything via Google. Did I dream this?

The Germans made a moderate amount of use of two types of ASM from
1943 to mid-1944, after which ECM and fighter opposition pretty well
ruled further use out. The teo types were the Henschel;193 (293?),
which was a rocket-assisted HE weapon, first used in 1943, with the
first sinking being HM sloop Egret in the Bay of Biscay (my father's
old ship - he'd left a couple of months before), with HMCS Athabaskan
damaged in the same action. Admiralty was aware of the problem posed
by these weapons - Egret had an admiralty ECM team aboard at the time of
her loss (none of them got out - in fact the doctor was the only
man to escape from below deck). There were a few more successes for the
weapon - notably the cruiser Spartan - but jamming measures rapidly
rendered it useless.
The other weapon - Fritz-X - was a guided bomb, intended for use against
armoured ships. Sank the Italian battleship Roma and crippled Warspite,
but again was rapidly rendered ineffective by ECM.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)

[robert arndt]

(ANDREW ROBERT BREEN) wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> Thomas W Ping > wrote:
> >I could've sworn that a couple of years ago, I read somewhere of a
> >German rocket powered (don't *think* it was an air breather), possibly
> >radio controlled, air launched (H-111H variant?) anti-shipping missile
> >that saw a *bit* of use toward the end of WWII. I can't, for the life
> >of me, come up with anything via Google. Did I dream this?
>
> The Germans made a moderate amount of use of two types of ASM from
> 1943 to mid-1944, after which ECM and fighter opposition pretty well
> ruled further use out. The teo types were the Henschel;193 (293?),
> which was a rocket-assisted HE weapon, first used in 1943, with the
> first sinking being HM sloop Egret in the Bay of Biscay (my father's
> old ship - he'd left a couple of months before), with HMCS Athabaskan
> damaged in the same action. Admiralty was aware of the problem posed
> by these weapons - Egret had an admiralty ECM team aboard at the time of
> her loss (none of them got out - in fact the doctor was the only
> man to escape from below deck). There were a few more successes for the
> weapon - notably the cruiser Spartan - but jamming measures rapidly
> rendered it useless.
> The other weapon - Fritz-X - was a guided bomb, intended for use against
> armoured ships. Sank the Italian battleship Roma and crippled Warspite,
> but again was rapidly rendered ineffective by ECM.

The Germans actually conducted tests with glide torpedos in WW1 with
the Siemens-Shuckert torpedo glider. They were testes from Zeppelins Z
XVIII, L25, and L35. They were to be launched from 1,500 m but the
airships proved too slow; instead, production of close to 100 glide
torpedos was intended for the aircraft Zeppelin-Staaken R IV... but
there is no record of any being tried in combat.
During WW2, the Germans renewed interest in guided/glide weapons
continued with the Fritz X, Hs 293, and others.
The Fritz X met with some success. On September 9, 1943 III/KG 100
sunk the Italian battleship "Roma" and heavily damaged the "Italia".
In subsequent attacks against the allies at Salerno, the Fritz X hits
were recorded on the US Cruiser "Savannah" and three destroyers. On
September 16, 1943 III/KG 100 hit the British battleship "Warspite".
It was damaged so badly it was towed to Malta and out of action for 6
months.
After the D-Day landings, the Fritz X score more hits destroying a
bridge at Pontaubault on Aug 7, 1944 and a big attack was planned
using He-177s in later August but had to be called off when the
bombers were destroyed on the ground on Aug 22, 1944 due to their
crews being stranded in Straussburg due to ;ack of transportation!
That was the end of the FrItz X.
The Hs 293, meanwhile, was first deployed in August 1943 by KG 100
operating against enemy sub hunters in the Gulf of Biscaya. On
September 30, 1943 the harbor at Ajaccio was attacked with Hs 293
armed D0 217s. Two Hs 293s fell short and landed on the waterfront...
to be reconstructed by the allies. These mistakes along with missile
failures set the program back; nevertheless, Fw 200s and He 177s flew
several successful missions with the Hs 293 which resulted in a 31%
hit rate. II/KG 100 achieved a hit rate of 55%. Various further models
of the Hs 293 were tested before the war's end including the
television-guided Hs 293D.
In addition to the two weapons above the Germans tested a wide range
of guided weapons including the L.10 "Friedensengle" glider torpedo-
450 of which were built but not used at the front.

Rob

[Jukka O. Kauppinen]

> The Fritz X met with some success.

Wasn't there also a case, when a German guided missile hit a US
troopship and sunk it with thousands of casualties? Can't remember where
I exactly read it, but it was written to be such large catastrophy, that
it was hushed down and filed into cabinets, so it is still pretty much
unknown happening.

jok

[Keith Willshaw]

"Jukka O. Kauppinen" > wrote in
message ...
> > The Fritz X met with some success.
>
> Wasn't there also a case, when a German guided missile hit a US
> troopship and sunk it with thousands of casualties?

No

> Can't remember where
> I exactly read it, but it was written to be such large catastrophy, that
> it was hushed down and filed into cabinets, so it is still pretty much
> unknown happening.
>

So unknown several books have been written about it and a
Google search returns 222 hits

It was a British ship called the HMT Rohna carrying US troops and
was sunk off the North African coast by He-177 bombers of 11/KG-40
using Hs-293 glider bombs

Some 1,047 US troops and 102 sailors were lost.

Keith

[robert arndt]

"Jukka O. Kauppinen" > wrote in message >...
> > The Fritz X met with some success.
>
> Wasn't there also a case, when a German guided missile hit a US
> troopship and sunk it with thousands of casualties? Can't remember where
> I exactly read it, but it was written to be such large catastrophy, that
> it was hushed down and filed into cabinets, so it is still pretty much
> unknown happening.
>
> jok

SS Rohna, British troop transport hit by Hs 293. 1015 killed.

Rob

[ANDREW ROBERT BREEN]

In article >,
robert arndt > wrote:
(ANDREW ROBERT BREEN) wrote in message >...
>> In article >,
>> Thomas W Ping > wrote:
>> >I could've sworn that a couple of years ago, I read somewhere of a
>> >German rocket powered (don't *think* it was an air breather), possibly

>> The Germans made a moderate amount of use of two types of ASM from
>> 1943 to mid-1944, after which ECM and fighter opposition pretty well
>> ruled further use out. The teo types were the Henschel;193 (293?),
>> which was a rocket-assisted HE weapon, first used in 1943, with the

>The Germans actually conducted tests with glide torpedos in WW1 with
>the Siemens-Shuckert torpedo glider. They were testes from Zeppelins Z
>XVIII, L25, and L35. They were to be launched from 1,500 m but the
>airships proved too slow; instead, production of close to 100 glide
>torpedos was intended for the aircraft Zeppelin-Staaken R IV... but
>there is no record of any being tried in combat.

This wasn't unique - by the end of WW1 the RN was trialling ship-
launched guided weapons (essentially small, unmanned, radio-controlled
aeroplanes - I've seen a picture of a S- or T- class destroyer carrying
one on a foredeck catapult but I'm nuggered if I can remember where
it was I saw it..

IIRC the idea was dropped as it was thought that improvements in AA
weapons (probably the multiple pom-pom) made it obsolete, though
I'm sure I've read that there were similar proposals in the 1930s,
probably after the Queen Bee firing trials where it proved very hard to
actually hit an aeroplane (as opposed to putting the pilot off,
which was what most AA fire of that era did).

Problem with all of these radio-controlled devices was their extreme
vunerability to jamming.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Who dies with the most toys wins" (Gary Barnes)

[Keith Willshaw]

"Devi Deveraux" > wrote in message
m...
> "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
>...
> > "Jukka O. Kauppinen" > wrote in
> > message ...
> > > > The Fritz X met with some success.
> > >

>
> The newest book "Allied Secret:The Sinking of HMT Rohna" can be purchased
here:
>
>
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?pwb=1&ean=9780806134185
>
>


Lets see up to now I know of the following books on the subject

"Allied Secret:The Sinking of HMT Rohna" by Carlton Jackson
'Forgotten Tragedy' also by Carlton Jackson
'The Rohna Disaster' by James Bennet
the section on the incident in 'Joining the War at Sea'

There was also a resolution passed in the House of representatives
about the incident

This must be some new definition of the words 'secret'
and 'forgotten'. If you want another 'forgotten' incident consider
the loss of HMT Lancastria which was bombed and sunk
off St Nazaire with the loss of 3000 troops and 1000 civilians
in 1940

(One book about this sinking was also called "The Forgotten
Tragedy", In fact this title seems a rather popular one with authors
as I got about 100 hits on a search)

Keith

[robert arndt]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message >...
> "Devi Deveraux" > wrote in message
> m...
> > "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
> >...
> > > "Jukka O. Kauppinen" > wrote in
> > > message ...
> > > > > The Fritz X met with some success.
> > > >
>
> >
> > The newest book "Allied Secret:The Sinking of HMT Rohna" can be purchased
> here:
> >
> >
> http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?pwb=1&ean=9780806134185
> >
> >
>
>
> Lets see up to now I know of the following books on the subject
>
> "Allied Secret:The Sinking of HMT Rohna" by Carlton Jackson
> 'Forgotten Tragedy' also by Carlton Jackson
> 'The Rohna Disaster' by James Bennet
> the section on the incident in 'Joining the War at Sea'
>
> There was also a resolution passed in the House of representatives
> about the incident
>
> This must be some new definition of the words 'secret'
> and 'forgotten'. If you want another 'forgotten' incident consider
> the loss of HMT Lancastria which was bombed and sunk
> off St Nazaire with the loss of 3000 troops and 1000 civilians
> in 1940
>
> (One book about this sinking was also called "The Forgotten
> Tragedy", In fact this title seems a rather popular one with authors
> as I got about 100 hits on a search)
>
> Keith

The is also the Bari poison gas incident that was covered-up during
the war. In that incident in Dec 1943 a Luftwaffe strike in the
Italian harbor sunk 17 ships including a Liberty ship loaded with
mustard gas shells which killed both the crew (over 1000) and several
thousand civilians on land as the gas was released in the air.
The Bari strike was known at the time as the "mini Pearl Harbor" and
quickly covered up.
Got anything else to say, Keith? It may not be "secret" anymore, but
it is not well known. Yet you put the guy down for asking a good
question.

Rob

[Keith Willshaw]

"robert arndt" > wrote in message
om...
> "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
>...
> > "Devi Deveraux" > wrote in message
> > m...
> > > "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
> > >...
> > > > "Jukka O. Kauppinen" >
wrote in
> > > > message ...
> > > > > > The Fritz X met with some success.
> > > > >
> >
> > >
> > > The newest book "Allied Secret:The Sinking of HMT Rohna" can be
purchased
> > here:
> > >
> > >
> >
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?pwb=1&ean=9780806134185
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Lets see up to now I know of the following books on the subject
> >
> > "Allied Secret:The Sinking of HMT Rohna" by Carlton Jackson
> > 'Forgotten Tragedy' also by Carlton Jackson
> > 'The Rohna Disaster' by James Bennet
> > the section on the incident in 'Joining the War at Sea'
> >
> > There was also a resolution passed in the House of representatives
> > about the incident
> >
> > This must be some new definition of the words 'secret'
> > and 'forgotten'. If you want another 'forgotten' incident consider
> > the loss of HMT Lancastria which was bombed and sunk
> > off St Nazaire with the loss of 3000 troops and 1000 civilians
> > in 1940
> >
> > (One book about this sinking was also called "The Forgotten
> > Tragedy", In fact this title seems a rather popular one with authors
> > as I got about 100 hits on a search)
> >
> > Keith
>
> The is also the Bari poison gas incident that was covered-up during
> the war. In that incident in Dec 1943 a Luftwaffe strike in the
> Italian harbor sunk 17 ships including a Liberty ship loaded with
> mustard gas shells which killed both the crew (over 1000) and several
> thousand civilians on land as the gas was released in the air.
> The Bari strike was known at the time as the "mini Pearl Harbor" and
> quickly covered up.
> Got anything else to say, Keith? It may not be "secret" anymore, but
> it is not well known. Yet you put the guy down for asking a good
> question.
>

No I poked a little gentle fun at shock horror book titles
by pointing out that it is not unknown or secret but has been known
about for many years and there have been dozens of articles and
several books written on the subject.

The sad reality is that it was just one of the many such disasters that
happened in WW2.

Keith

[The Enlightenment]

(ANDREW ROBERT BREEN) wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> robert arndt > wrote:
> (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN) wrote in message >...
> >> In article >,
> >> Thomas W Ping > wrote:
> >> >I could've sworn that a couple of years ago, I read somewhere of a
> >> >German rocket powered (don't *think* it was an air breather), possibly
>
> >> The Germans made a moderate amount of use of two types of ASM from
> >> 1943 to mid-1944, after which ECM and fighter opposition pretty well
> >> ruled further use out. The teo types were the Henschel;193 (293?),
> >> which was a rocket-assisted HE weapon, first used in 1943, with the
>
> >The Germans actually conducted tests with glide torpedos in WW1 with
> >the Siemens-Shuckert torpedo glider. They were testes from Zeppelins Z
> >XVIII, L25, and L35. They were to be launched from 1,500 m but the
> >airships proved too slow; instead, production of close to 100 glide
> >torpedos was intended for the aircraft Zeppelin-Staaken R IV... but
> >there is no record of any being tried in combat.
>
> This wasn't unique - by the end of WW1 the RN was trialling ship-
> launched guided weapons (essentially small, unmanned, radio-controlled
> aeroplanes - I've seen a picture of a S- or T- class destroyer carrying
> one on a foredeck catapult but I'm nuggered if I can remember where
> it was I saw it..
>
> IIRC the idea was dropped as it was thought that improvements in AA
> weapons (probably the multiple pom-pom) made it obsolete, though
> I'm sure I've read that there were similar proposals in the 1930s,
> probably after the Queen Bee firing trials where it proved very hard to
> actually hit an aeroplane (as opposed to putting the pilot off,
> which was what most AA fire of that era did).
>
> Problem with all of these radio-controlled devices was their extreme
> vunerability to jamming.


The Germans never seem to have been overly concerned with Jaming of
the
Kehl-Strasbourg tramitter-Receiver pair used on Both Fritz-X and the
Hs-293 apparently thinking that modification to the systems was only
necessary if "jamming reached 50%". I don't know how they mesured
that but I have the impression that jamming of both systems was very
difficult from the target area ship/bridge becuase of what looks like
directional yagi style antena on the rear of the missiles to me.
effectve Jamming required the Jammers to be installed on an opposing
aircraft so that the jamming energy could be fed into the main lobe of
the antena.

I also recall talk of some of the latter missiles being supplied and
used with wire guidence which was much more difficult to jam.

Both missiles could be used only when their was no effective fighter
opposition or heavy Flak since the launch aircraft had to fly a steady
course thus due to both Jamming and the vulnerability of the Launch
aircraft the system was usable only in the absence of fighter
opposition.

A TV guided version with or without wire known as the Hs293D might
have changed that.

[WaltBJ]

I have a vague recollection of reasding somehwere that a lash-up
jamming system involving tuning to the VHF guidance channel and using
an electric razor as the jamming source actually worked. Whether the
razor's noise was used to feed a mike or they actually wired the hash
from its drive system to modulate the VHF signal - I can't remember. I
do have some books with pictures of WW2 ships with jamming antennae on
the yardarms.
FWIW the USN used radar guided glide bombs against Japanese shipping.
I believe the Bat had its own radar T/R unit to guide it to the
target. Then there were the Azon and Razon gided bombs, steered from
the bomber somewhat like the 293. They were used in Burma to hit rail
lines and bridges.
Way back when was the Kettering 'Bug' - a US 'cruise missile' of WW1.
Like the V1 it was 'D/R' guided.
Walt BJ

[John Keeney]

"robert arndt" > wrote in message
om...
> "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
>...
> > "Devi Deveraux" > wrote in message
> > m...
> > > "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
> > >...
> > > > "Jukka O. Kauppinen" >
wrote in
> > > > message ...
> > > > > > The Fritz X met with some success.
> > > > >
> >
> > >
> > > The newest book "Allied Secret:The Sinking of HMT Rohna" can be
purchased
> > here:
> > >
> > >
> >
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?pwb=1&ean=9780806134185
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Lets see up to now I know of the following books on the subject
> >
> > "Allied Secret:The Sinking of HMT Rohna" by Carlton Jackson
> > 'Forgotten Tragedy' also by Carlton Jackson
> > 'The Rohna Disaster' by James Bennet
> > the section on the incident in 'Joining the War at Sea'
> >
> > There was also a resolution passed in the House of representatives
> > about the incident
> >
> > This must be some new definition of the words 'secret'
> > and 'forgotten'. If you want another 'forgotten' incident consider
> > the loss of HMT Lancastria which was bombed and sunk
> > off St Nazaire with the loss of 3000 troops and 1000 civilians
> > in 1940
> >
> > (One book about this sinking was also called "The Forgotten
> > Tragedy", In fact this title seems a rather popular one with authors
> > as I got about 100 hits on a search)
> >
> > Keith
>
> The is also the Bari poison gas incident that was covered-up during
> the war. In that incident in Dec 1943 a Luftwaffe strike in the
> Italian harbor sunk 17 ships including a Liberty ship loaded with
> mustard gas shells which killed both the crew (over 1000) and several

A Liberty ship crew of over 1000?

> thousand civilians on land as the gas was released in the air.
> The Bari strike was known at the time as the "mini Pearl Harbor" and
> quickly covered up.
> Got anything else to say, Keith? It may not be "secret" anymore, but
> it is not well known. Yet you put the guy down for asking a good
> question.
>
> Rob

[Keith Willshaw]

"The Enlightenment" > wrote in message
om...
> (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN) wrote in message
>...
> > In article >,
> > robert arndt > wrote:
> > (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN) wrote in message
>...
> > >> In article >,
> > >> Thomas W Ping > wrote:
> > >> >I could've sworn that a couple of years ago, I read somewhere of a
> > >> >German rocket powered (don't *think* it was an air breather),
possibly
> >
> > >> The Germans made a moderate amount of use of two types of ASM from
> > >> 1943 to mid-1944, after which ECM and fighter opposition pretty well
> > >> ruled further use out. The teo types were the Henschel;193 (293?),
> > >> which was a rocket-assisted HE weapon, first used in 1943, with the
> >
> > >The Germans actually conducted tests with glide torpedos in WW1 with
> > >the Siemens-Shuckert torpedo glider. They were testes from Zeppelins Z
> > >XVIII, L25, and L35. They were to be launched from 1,500 m but the
> > >airships proved too slow; instead, production of close to 100 glide
> > >torpedos was intended for the aircraft Zeppelin-Staaken R IV... but
> > >there is no record of any being tried in combat.
> >
> > This wasn't unique - by the end of WW1 the RN was trialling ship-
> > launched guided weapons (essentially small, unmanned, radio-controlled
> > aeroplanes - I've seen a picture of a S- or T- class destroyer carrying
> > one on a foredeck catapult but I'm nuggered if I can remember where
> > it was I saw it..
> >
> > IIRC the idea was dropped as it was thought that improvements in AA
> > weapons (probably the multiple pom-pom) made it obsolete, though
> > I'm sure I've read that there were similar proposals in the 1930s,
> > probably after the Queen Bee firing trials where it proved very hard to
> > actually hit an aeroplane (as opposed to putting the pilot off,
> > which was what most AA fire of that era did).
> >
> > Problem with all of these radio-controlled devices was their extreme
> > vunerability to jamming.
>
>
> The Germans never seem to have been overly concerned with Jaming of
> the
> Kehl-Strasbourg tramitter-Receiver pair used on Both Fritz-X and the
> Hs-293 apparently thinking that modification to the systems was only
> necessary if "jamming reached 50%". I don't know how they mesured
> that but I have the impression that jamming of both systems was very
> difficult from the target area ship/bridge becuase of what looks like
> directional yagi style antena on the rear of the missiles to me.
> effectve Jamming required the Jammers to be installed on an opposing
> aircraft so that the jamming energy could be fed into the main lobe of
> the antena.
>

This is incorrect, two types of jammers were in fact developed for use
by ships. The first was just a brute force transmission of white noise
(generated by an electric razor in the first instance) and the second
actually sent spoof signals to the receiver unit. The few HS-293A and
Fritz X weapons used against the Normandy invasion fleet were
succesfully jammed.

> I also recall talk of some of the latter missiles being supplied and
> used with wire guidence which was much more difficult to jam.
>

Correct, the HS-293B was wire guided

Keith

[Greg Hennessy]

On 28 Oct 2003 20:41:23 -0800, (WaltBJ) wrote:

>I have a vague recollection of reasding somehwere that a lash-up
>jamming system involving tuning to the VHF guidance channel and using
>an electric razor as the jamming source actually worked.

I read that elsewhere. Stories of men running to the decks armed with
razors to point at the incoming raid.


greg

--
$ReplyAddress =~ s#\@.*$##; # Delete everything after the '@'
The Following is a true story.....
Only the names have been changed to protect the guilty.

[Bob McKellar]

Greg Hennessy wrote:

> On 28 Oct 2003 20:41:23 -0800, (WaltBJ) wrote:
>
> >I have a vague recollection of reasding somehwere that a lash-up
> >jamming system involving tuning to the VHF guidance channel and using
> >an electric razor as the jamming source actually worked.
>
> I read that elsewhere. Stories of men running to the decks armed with
> razors to point at the incoming raid.
>
> greg
>
> --
> $ReplyAddress =~ s#\@.*$##; # Delete everything after the '@'
> The Following is a true story.....
> Only the names have been changed to protect the guilty.

I guess there was lot of tripping over the cords, and jostling to reach
all those 110 VAC outlets mounted on deck.............

Bob McKellar, who uses a cordless, but doubts they had any

[Alan Minyard]

On 28 Oct 2003 10:50:39 -0800, (robert arndt) wrote:

>"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message >...
>> "Devi Deveraux" > wrote in message
>> m...
>> > "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
>> >...
>> > > "Jukka O. Kauppinen" > wrote in
>> > > message ...
>> > > > > The Fritz X met with some success.
>> > > >
>>
>> >
>> > The newest book "Allied Secret:The Sinking of HMT Rohna" can be purchased
>> here:
>> >
>> >
>> http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?pwb=1&ean=9780806134185
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> Lets see up to now I know of the following books on the subject
>>
>> "Allied Secret:The Sinking of HMT Rohna" by Carlton Jackson
>> 'Forgotten Tragedy' also by Carlton Jackson
>> 'The Rohna Disaster' by James Bennet
>> the section on the incident in 'Joining the War at Sea'
>>
>> There was also a resolution passed in the House of representatives
>> about the incident
>>
>> This must be some new definition of the words 'secret'
>> and 'forgotten'. If you want another 'forgotten' incident consider
>> the loss of HMT Lancastria which was bombed and sunk
>> off St Nazaire with the loss of 3000 troops and 1000 civilians
>> in 1940
>>
>> (One book about this sinking was also called "The Forgotten
>> Tragedy", In fact this title seems a rather popular one with authors
>> as I got about 100 hits on a search)
>>
>> Keith
>
>The is also the Bari poison gas incident that was covered-up during
>the war. In that incident in Dec 1943 a Luftwaffe strike in the
>Italian harbor sunk 17 ships including a Liberty ship loaded with
>mustard gas shells which killed both the crew (over 1000) and several
>thousand civilians on land as the gas was released in the air.
>The Bari strike was known at the time as the "mini Pearl Harbor" and
>quickly covered up.
>Got anything else to say, Keith? It may not be "secret" anymore, but
>it is not well known. Yet you put the guy down for asking a good
>question.
>
>Rob

The release of Mustard gas (held in case retaliation for a German gas
attack) killed 69 people and injured 689 seriously enough to be
hospitalized. It was not "covered up".

Al Minyard

[Greg Hennessy]

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 09:19:22 -0600, Alan Minyard >
wrote:

>
>
>The release of Mustard gas (held in case retaliation for a German gas
>attack) killed 69 people and injured 689 seriously enough to be
>hospitalized. It was not "covered up".
>

Just remember, in Ardntland, everything written in 'Signal' is true.


greg
--
$ReplyAddress =~ s#\@.*$##; # Delete everything after the '@'
The Following is a true story.....
Only the names have been changed to protect the guilty.

[robert arndt]

> > I also recall talk of some of the latter missiles being supplied and
> > used with wire guidence which was much more difficult to jam.
> >
>
> Correct, the HS-293B was wire guided
>
> Keith


The Hs 293B came in two variants- one with trailing wire 12 km long
and a second wire version 16 km long. The FuG 207 "Dortmund"-FuGz 237
"Duisburg" transmitter/reciever was the guidance system. Around 200
were built and some tested in 1944.
As for the Hs 293D television guided missile, around 255 of them were
produced. The best version of that missile utilized the
"Tonne4a-Seedorf 3" guidance system which improved accuracy
considerably. None, however, saw action.

Rob

[Philip Morten]

ANDREW ROBERT BREEN wrote:

>
> This wasn't unique - by the end of WW1 the RN was trialling ship-
> launched guided weapons (essentially small, unmanned, radio-controlled
> aeroplanes - I've seen a picture of a S- or T- class destroyer carrying
> one on a foredeck catapult but I'm nuggered if I can remember where
> it was I saw it..
> >

HMS Stronghold was featured in Andrew Toppans's mystery picture
quiz a couple of months ago, see :
http://www.hazegray.org/mysteries/oldmyst/ans158.htm

Philip Morten

[Alan Minyard]

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:51:50 +0000, Greg Hennessy > wrote:

>On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 09:19:22 -0600, Alan Minyard >
>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>The release of Mustard gas (held in case retaliation for a German gas
>>attack) killed 69 people and injured 689 seriously enough to be
>>hospitalized. It was not "covered up".
>>
>
>Just remember, in Ardntland, everything written in 'Signal' is true.
>
>
>greg

Thanks, I needed that :-)))

Al Minyard

[The Enlightenment]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message >...
> "The Enlightenment" > wrote in message
> om...
SNIP

> > >
> > > Problem with all of these radio-controlled devices was their extreme
> > > vunerability to jamming.

> >
> > The Germans never seem to have been overly concerned with Jaming of
> > the
> > Kehl-Strasbourg tramitter-Receiver pair used on Both Fritz-X and the
> > Hs-293 apparently thinking that modification to the systems was only
> > necessary if "jamming reached 50%". I don't know how they mesured
> > that but I have the impression that jamming of both systems was very
> > difficult from the target area ship/bridge becuase of what looks like
> > directional yagi style antena on the rear of the missiles to me.
> > effectve Jamming required the Jammers to be installed on an opposing
> > aircraft so that the jamming energy could be fed into the main lobe of
> > the antena.
> >
>
> This is incorrect, two types of jammers were in fact developed for use
> by ships. The first was just a brute force transmission of white noise
> (generated by an electric razor in the first instance) and the second
> actually sent spoof signals to the receiver unit.

The Germans knew and used (elesewhere) several effective anti-jamming
techniques on select devices. I doubt that they had the resources to
mass produce and deploy these on the Fritz-X and Hs293 though
nevertheless the techniques of spread spectrum, chirping and frequency
hopping were known and used by them.

Even the USAAF/USAF in WW2 and Korea had trouble training technicians
and setting up the guidence systems of the azon and razon bombs
despite their effectiveness against bridges.


> The few HS-293A and
> Fritz X weapons used against the Normandy invasion fleet were
> succesfully jammed.

While I am aware of the fact that allied fighter aircraft carried
jammers the reason I doubt that is that I don't believe any German
aircraft, not even photo-reconaisance aircraft made it into the
Normandy area at all let alone one lugging a massive Friz-X or Henchel
293.

The reconaisance problem was so severe that a prototype Arado 234 Jet
complete with test pilot (Erich Sommer I think) was modified and used
before series production or deployment of the type. Film of these
flights as I understand it were the first that the Germans had that
ascertained the size of the Normandy Bridgehead that the allies had
established.

A reputed German aircaft recognition joke of the time was
"if the aircraft are camaflaged green they are british,
if the aricraft are silver they are american,
if they are invisible they are German"

With effectve reconaisance assets the Germans would have probaby
detected the Normandy invasion much earlier and responded more
effectively.


>
> > I also recall talk of some of the latter missiles being supplied and
> > used with wire guidence which was much more difficult to jam.
> >
>
> Correct, the HS-293B was wire guided

I have weapon load sketches of the Arado 234C armed with a Fritz-X
(and several more advanced missiles as well). With a wire guided or
jam resistant version it should have been effective at least on a
cloudless day.


>
> Keith

[Thomas W Ping]

Keith Willshaw wrote:

> This is incorrect, two types of jammers were in fact developed for use
> by ships. The first was just a brute force transmission of white noise
> (generated by an electric razor in the first instance) and the second
> actually sent spoof signals to the receiver unit. The few HS-293A and
> Fritz X weapons used against the Normandy invasion fleet were
> succesfully jammed.

I wasn't around, back then, but while an electric razor, if extant,
would make noise, would it be considered *white* noise; i.e., would it
contain the whole spectrum of audible sounds? Seems improbable.

--
Thomas Winston Ping

[The Enlightenment]

(WaltBJ) wrote in message >...
> I have a vague recollection of reasding somehwere that a lash-up
> jamming system involving tuning to the VHF guidance channel and using
> an electric razor as the jamming source actually worked. Whether the
> razor's noise was used to feed a mike or they actually wired the hash
> from its drive system to modulate the VHF signal - I can't remember. I
> do have some books with pictures of WW2 ships with jamming antennae on
> the yardarms.

The method of generating noise in those days was far from abstract.

> FWIW the USN used radar guided glide bombs against Japanese shipping.
> I believe the Bat had its own radar T/R unit to guide it to the
> target.

Yes I'm certain that is correct.

There was a German "Equivalent" the Blohm and Voss BV246. Originaly
intended as a glibe bomb to be lauched from Fw 190 aircraft to replace
the Fi 103 V1 "doodlebug". It had a 25:1 glide ration and if
launched at 20,000ft could strike a target 100 miles away. A
beauitfully streamline missile that looked more like a sailplane but
of similar confuguration as the BAT.

http://www.luft46.com/missile/bv246.html
The glide bomb was originally meant to be guided by a radio link from
the carrier aircraft, but interest waned as the British began
successfully countering German radio navigational aids. (an unguided
V1 style version was unimpressive in accuracy)

The BV 246 was revived in early 1945 to use the "Radieschen"
(Radish) ultra-short wave passive homing device which would home into
enemy radars. (It was based on the Rosendhal Halbe device used to home
in on H2S and H2X ground mapping radar by German night fighters I
believe) The new BV 246 had a modified nose to house the
"Radieschen", and it acted on the gyroscopic control equipment for the
rudders and elevator. Ten of the modified BV 246 "Radieschen" equipped
glide bombs were tested on the Unterlüss test range, but due to the
new equipment being under development, eight of the tests failed,
although two of the tests were successful, landing within two meters
(6 feet) of the target. Although over 1000 BV 246 glide bombs were
produced, none were used operationally.


> Then there were the Azon and Razon gided bombs, steered from
> the bomber somewhat like the 293. They were used in Burma to hit rail
> lines and bridges.
> Way back when was the Kettering 'Bug' - a US 'cruise missile' of WW1.
> Like the V1 it was 'D/R' guided.
> Walt BJ

Interestingly the Lune[SIC] {US made V1 clone with "safer" launcher
and US guidence systems) used a radar tracking guidence that could
achieve I believe 300 yard accuracy.

[ANDREW ROBERT BREEN]

In article >,
WaltBJ > wrote:
>I have a vague recollection of reasding somehwere that a lash-up
>jamming system involving tuning to the VHF guidance channel and using
>an electric razor as the jamming source actually worked. Whether the
>razor's noise was used to feed a mike or they actually wired the hash
>from its drive system to modulate the VHF signal - I can't remember. I
>do have some books with pictures of WW2 ships with jamming antennae on
>the yardarms.

ISTR the "discovery" was simply the radio noise from a badly-made
electric razor - amplification and transmission from aerials would
make it more effective, of course, and presumably once it was
realised that broad-band noise would do the trick this was done in
short order.
The story is that the team lost with Egret were attempting to pick
out the frequency used by Hs293 and jam it on using a fairly narrow-
band signal. Unfortunately it didn't work.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)