Re: My Modest Proposal to End Global Warming, Revitalize General Aviation, and End Our Dependence on Foreign Oil

[Gene Seibel]

On Oct 13, 3:33 pm, C J Campbell >
wrote:
>
> Of course, those who still live out in the sticks will need some other
> way to get around. This will be the rail lines, just like in the old
> days, or they will fly, as God intended. New airports will spring up
> like flowers after a rain. Flight instructors will be busy. The little
> planes will no longer bother anybody because everyone will realize they
> are necessary. Aircraft manufacturers will finally have the incentive
> to innovate and produce airplanes in reasonable numbers.
>

Sounds good to me.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.

[Jay Honeck]

> Sounds good to me.

Me, too.

I could live quite happily without freeways. In fact, given my 6 mile
(round trip) commute each day, I'm considering an all-electric car as
my next vehicle.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

In rec.aviation.owning Jay Honeck > wrote:
> > Sounds good to me.

> Me, too.

> I could live quite happily without freeways. In fact, given my 6 mile
> (round trip) commute each day, I'm considering an all-electric car as
> my next vehicle.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

A trip to a client site is typically 50 miles one way for me.

Thankfully I can do a lot of things remotely.

The last time I was able to walk to work was in the Army.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Bob Noel]

In article om>,
Jay Honeck > wrote:

> > Sounds good to me.
>
> Me, too.
>
> I could live quite happily without freeways. In fact, given my 6 mile
> (round trip) commute each day, I'm considering an all-electric car as
> my next vehicle.

Just a note if you ever consider a gas/electric hybrid, with such a short
commute you probably won't see the book gas mileage because the
engine needs to warm up before it will shutoff while driving.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Mike Spera]

>
>>Of course, those who still live out in the sticks will need some other
>>way to get around. This will be the rail lines, just like in the old
>>days, or they will fly, as God intended. New airports will spring up
>>like flowers after a rain. Flight instructors will be busy. The little
>>planes will no longer bother anybody because everyone will realize they
>>are necessary. Aircraft manufacturers will finally have the incentive
>>to innovate and produce airplanes in reasonable numbers.
>>.stuff snipped above and here

This all assumes that Joe Average Goober is smart enough to be trained
in the skills/art of flying an airplane.

Then again, airplane operation does tend to stick pretty closely to the
Laws of Natural Selection (the dumb ones are removed from the gene
pool). Maybe in 4 or 5 generations the actual average intelligence level
will rise if more people took up flying...

O.K. Hopefully our more "sensitive" readers will recognize the dark
humor above and not go ballistic.

Be Careful out There
Mike

[Jay Honeck]

> Just a note if you ever consider a gas/electric hybrid, with such a short
> commute you probably won't see the book gas mileage because the
> engine needs to warm up before it will shutoff while driving.

Nah, I want a pure electric vehicle. Plug & play.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Matt Whiting]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>> Just a note if you ever consider a gas/electric hybrid, with such a short
>> commute you probably won't see the book gas mileage because the
>> engine needs to warm up before it will shutoff while driving.
>
> Nah, I want a pure electric vehicle. Plug & play.

That is plug and PAY, Jay, plug and PAY.

And given our impending shortage of electrical generation capacity,
people who move this direction are going to pay dearly in 10-15 years
.... unless they can ramp up the nuclear power plants a lot faster than I
think they can.

Matt

[Michael Ash]

In rec.aviation.student Matt Whiting > wrote:
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>>> Just a note if you ever consider a gas/electric hybrid, with such a short
>>> commute you probably won't see the book gas mileage because the
>>> engine needs to warm up before it will shutoff while driving.
>>
>> Nah, I want a pure electric vehicle. Plug & play.
>
> That is plug and PAY, Jay, plug and PAY.
>
> And given our impending shortage of electrical generation capacity,
> people who move this direction are going to pay dearly in 10-15 years
> ... unless they can ramp up the nuclear power plants a lot faster than I
> think they can.

In 10-15 years it's probably time to replace that car anyway.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

[Dallas]

On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 06:06:21 -0700, Jay Honeck wrote:

> Nah, I want a pure electric vehicle. Plug & play.

Just buy a golf cart...

--
Dallas

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>> Just a note if you ever consider a gas/electric hybrid, with such a short
>> commute you probably won't see the book gas mileage because the
>> engine needs to warm up before it will shutoff while driving.
>
> Nah, I want a pure electric vehicle. Plug & play.

How is the electricity generated?

[Anthony W]

I've yet to see any proof that global warming is man made. I've seen
some evidence that it's more of a solar phenomena.

As for ending the dependence on imported oil, so far hydrogen powered
internal combustion engines look promising but will have the same issues
and propane fueled engines. For now it's petrochemical fuel and there's
more in the USA than the feds will let the oil companies drill for.

Tony

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Anthony W" > wrote in message
news:6ruQi.3487$hI1.1829@trndny06...
> I've yet to see any proof that global warming is man made. I've seen some
> evidence that it's more of a solar phenomena.
>

Not to mention the vastly overstated forcing of CO2.

[Jay Honeck]

> Just buy a golf cart...

Those are a bit cold in winter around here...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Rich S.[_1_]]

"Anthony W" > wrote in message
news:6ruQi.3487$hI1.1829@trndny06...
> For now it's petrochemical fuel and there's more in the USA than the feds
> will let the oil companies drill for.

Not to mention gummint restrictions on building the &*^%&^ refineries !!!!

Rich S.

[Anthony W]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>> Just buy a golf cart...
>
> Those are a bit cold in winter around here...
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA

And damp around here in NW Oregon.

Tony

[Edward Kiernan]

Anthony W wrote:
> I've yet to see any proof that global warming is man made. I've seen
> some evidence that it's more of a solar phenomena.
>
> As for ending the dependence on imported oil, so far hydrogen powered
> internal combustion engines look promising but will have the same issues
> and propane fueled engines. For now it's petrochemical fuel and there's
> more in the USA than the feds will let the oil companies drill for.
>
> Tony
Here's a recent scientific report on the effects of solar phenomena on
the climate.
http://www.pubs.royalsoc.ac.uk/media/proceedings_a/rspa20071880.pdf

[Ray Andraka]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> I could live quite happily without freeways. In fact, given my 6 mile
> (round trip) commute each day, I'm considering an all-electric car as
> my next vehicle.

Ditto. Although I need one with about a 50 mile range. Virtually all
of our driving is around town, with the farthest points being the
airport and kid's high school which are 14 and 17 miles away
respectively. I've looked at a couple of the conversion kits for VW's
and Hondas, but so far it looks like the range is typically 40-50 miles.

[Ray Andraka]

Bob Noel wrote:

> Just a note if you ever consider a gas/electric hybrid, with such a
short
> commute you probably won't see the book gas mileage because the
> engine needs to warm up before it will shutoff while driving.
>

Precisely why I am interested in an all-electric, not a hybrid. I work
from my home most of the time, so the commute isn't the issue. The
issue is the requisite running around that needs to be done to support
six kids and all their activities.

[Ray Andraka]

Matt Barrow wrote:


>
> How is the electricity generated?
>
>

by the grid or by a windmill at home. The energy is stored in
batteries, and in some cases batteries combined with super capacitors

[Ray Andraka]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>Just buy a golf cart...
>
>
> Those are a bit cold in winter around here...


And not street legal around here.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Ray Andraka" > wrote in message
...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>
>
>>
>> How is the electricity generated?
>
> by the grid or by a windmill at home.

A windmill at home is not likely to have the output to power an all-electric
car for more than a few yards.

If it's a power grid powered by coal, you're likely causing more pollution
than a car that's nicely tuned.

> The energy is stored in batteries, and in some cases batteries combined
> with super capacitors

Capt. Obvious strikes again "~)

When someone can explain why temps went DOWN while CO2 emissions went UP, or
why temps were much lower during epochs when CO2 was several times higher
than today, I'll buy into the ACC arguments.

Until then, my Toyota 4-Runner suits me just fine :~o

[Dan[_2_]]

Anthony W wrote:
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>>> Just buy a golf cart...
>>
>> Those are a bit cold in winter around here...
>> --
>> Jay Honeck
>> Iowa City, IA
>
> And damp around here in NW Oregon.
>
> Tony

OK, you bunch of whiners, when I was a child I had to walk 15 miles
to school in my bare feet in the sleet and snow, up hill.....both ways.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Scott[_1_]]

See! If you'd have had a freeway, you could've taken a school bus to
school...

Scott


Dan wrote:
> Anthony W wrote:
>
>> Jay Honeck wrote:
>>
>>>> Just buy a golf cart...
>>>
>>>
>>> Those are a bit cold in winter around here...
>>> --
>>> Jay Honeck
>>> Iowa City, IA
>>
>>
>> And damp around here in NW Oregon.
>>
>> Tony
>
>
> OK, you bunch of whiners, when I was a child I had to walk 15 miles to
> school in my bare feet in the sleet and snow, up hill.....both ways.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

--
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

"Dan" wrote:

> OK, you bunch of whiners, when I was a child I had to walk 15 miles to
> school in my bare feet in the sleet and snow, up hill.....both ways.
>


Luxury!

At least you had feet. Our mom used ours to make soup. We had to walk to
school on the stumps!

--
Dan

"Don't make me nervous when I'm carryin' a baseball bat."
- Big Joe Turner

[Eduardo K.]

In article om>,
Jay Honeck > wrote:
>> Sounds good to me.
>
>Me, too.
>
>I could live quite happily without freeways. In fact, given my 6 mile
>(round trip) commute each day, I'm considering an all-electric car as
>my next vehicle.

convert one. I am converting a 1978 Citroen and will have a 10 mile range at 35mph (what
I need for my commute) for aroung US$1500 invested.

there is a very good list I can point you to if you are interested.

You being in the US makes its much easier than it has been for me :)


--
Eduardo K. |
http://www.carfun.cl | I'm white and nerdy
http://ev.nn.cl | Weird Al
|

[Eduardo K.]

In article >,
Matt Barrow > wrote:
>>
>> by the grid or by a windmill at home.
>
>A windmill at home is not likely to have the output to power an all-electric
>car for more than a few yards.

you are very misinformed. a BEV needs around 300wh to go a mile, that means a windwill
that makes 1kw per hour only needs a couple of hours to make enough for a local
commute. In my case its 5miles to my job, or 1.5kwh.

>If it's a power grid powered by coal, you're likely causing more pollution
>than a car that's nicely tuned.

also missinformed. coal (or diesel) to electricity is over 90% efficient, versus
the 30% or so of efficiency of an internal combustion engine. more efficient is
almost always less polluting.



--
Eduardo K. |
http://www.carfun.cl | I'm white and nerdy
http://ev.nn.cl | Weird Al
|

[Montblack]

("Dan Luke" wrote)
> At least you had feet. Our mom used ours to make soup. We had to walk to
> school on the stumps!


That's it, cut him off! <g>


Montblack

[Dan[_2_]]

Montblack wrote:
> ("Dan Luke" wrote)
>> At least you had feet. Our mom used ours to make soup. We had to walk to
>> school on the stumps!
>
>
> That's it, cut him off! <g>
>
>
> Montblack
>
>
At least you had soup, we had to graze on the lint on the floor.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Dan" > wrote in message
...
> Montblack wrote:
>> ("Dan Luke" wrote)
>>> At least you had feet. Our mom used ours to make soup. We had to walk
>>> to school on the stumps!
>>
>>
>> That's it, cut him off! <g>
>>
>>
>> Montblack
> At least you had soup, we had to graze on the lint on the floor.

You had a floor? A real, honest-to-god floor? You pansy!! :~0

[Dan[_2_]]

Matt Barrow wrote:
> "Dan" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Montblack wrote:
>>> ("Dan Luke" wrote)
>>>> At least you had feet. Our mom used ours to make soup. We had to walk
>>>> to school on the stumps!
>>>
>>> That's it, cut him off! <g>
>>>
>>>
>>> Montblack
>> At least you had soup, we had to graze on the lint on the floor.
>
> You had a floor? A real, honest-to-god floor? You pansy!! :~0
>
>
In winter the mud froze and we had a solid floor.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 20:31:37 -0700, Jay Honeck >
wrote:

>> Sounds good to me.
>
>Me, too.
>
>I could live quite happily without freeways. In fact, given my 6 mile

Rarely do I need one and even then I could leave a bit earlier. OTOH
what happens to all the cars?

>(round trip) commute each day, I'm considering an all-electric car as
>my next vehicle.

About that time most of your neighbors will do the same, there will be
no off peak times any more due to every one getting their batteries
charged at night, and we'll discover we don't have either the
electrical generating capacity from those smoky, coal burning plants,
nor the electrical grid capacity to deliver it.

Roger (K8RI)

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Dan" > wrote in message
...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>> "Dan" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Montblack wrote:
>>>> ("Dan Luke" wrote)
>>>>> At least you had feet. Our mom used ours to make soup. We had to
>>>>> walk to school on the stumps!
>>>>
>>>> That's it, cut him off! <g>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Montblack
>>> At least you had soup, we had to graze on the lint on the floor.
>>
>> You had a floor? A real, honest-to-god floor? You pansy!! :~0
> In winter the mud froze and we had a solid floor.
>
We had a black hole that we had to jump over. We were unable to train the
dog to make the jump, and she's now in another dimension.

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2007-10-15 19:20:09 -0700, Dan > said:

> Anthony W wrote:
>> Jay Honeck wrote:
>>>> Just buy a golf cart...
>>>
>>> Those are a bit cold in winter around here...
>>> --
>>> Jay Honeck
>>> Iowa City, IA
>>
>> And damp around here in NW Oregon.
>>
>> Tony
>
> OK, you bunch of whiners, when I was a child I had to walk 15 miles
> to school in my bare feet in the sleet and snow, up hill.....both ways.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

True legend:

Sometime in the 14th century the Campbells were returning from a cattle
raid that had not gone very well, so they were making a rapid tactical
retreat across the snow. Finally, exhausted, they wrapped themselves in
their kilts and threw themselves down into the snow to take a needed
rest. The clan chief's son, however, rolled up a large snowball and put
it under his head. The chief came over and kicked the snowball away,
saying, "And are ye become so effeminate, lad, that ye need a pillow?"

That story has been handed down among Campbells for centuries, but
there is no way to verify it. Still, it seems plausible. Consider the
experience of a more recent ancestor:

My grandmother's grandmother, Sarah Urrinda Rawson, at the age of six
made the trek across the plains to Utah, walking the entire distance.
She wrote that she and her little brother were in charge of the cattle,
which frightened her sometimes when the cattle stampeded or when
Indians attacked trying to steal cattle. The children had no shoes, so
she got great cracks in her feet which she would sew up with her sewing
kit when they stopped for the night.

This was not the first time the children had had to migrate to a new
home without shoes. After their home was burned by mobs the first time
in Missouri, they had to flee in the dead of winter across the Missouri
River, taking shelter on a sand bar. There her mother, Elizabeth, and
Sarah Urrinda's baby brother, had to stay with nothing more to protect
them than a sheet hung between willows. The children's feet were
severely frostbitten.

Sarrah Urrinda's older brother, Daniel was probably still a little sore
from the ball he took in his knee at the battle of Clear Creek. He was
16 at the time. Later, when he was 19, he confronted an armed mob alone
and demanded that they at least partially pay for the house in Illinois
they had burned, the flocks and pigs they had stolen, and for the fence
they destroyed. They finally caved and gave him a side of bacon, a
cheese, and some eggs. Then they shot at him as he left for home.

Later, Daniel was making shakes for a barn and he and the others
decided to sleep at another barn that night. A mob set fire to the barn
and started shooting everybody that came out. Daniel's best friend was
shot to death as he stood next to him.

They stopped in Iowa to regroup and the Army came asking for volunteers
for a battalion of men to march against Mexico. Daniel swore that he
would never serve the American government, which had done nothing to
prevent these attacks by mobs or restore order. But he volunteered
anyway when Brigham Young asked him to. So they marched to Missouri for
supplies, but the supply depot was manned by the same people who had
chased them out of Missouri. The commander of the battalion finally
gave the Missourians an ultimatum that either they would deliver the
supplies within the day or he would open fire with his cannon. They
delivered.

They marched across to San Diego, building a road all the way from
Independence. Mustered out, they went to Yerba Buena (now San
Francisco), and on to Sacramento looking for work so they could earn
money to get back to Utah. They found it at Sutter's mill. Although
they discovered gold there, Daniel was asked to take the horses back to
Salt Lake City in the spring, which he did in a running battle with
Indians the whole way. He sometimes had to swim across icy rivers
towing a raft carrying the horses.

So, when I hear people mocking the "15 miles each way in our bare feet"
I think of those guys. They really lived like that.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Edward A. Falk]

In article om>,
Jay Honeck > wrote:
>> Sounds good to me.
>
>Me, too.
>
>I could live quite happily without freeways. In fact, given my 6 mile
>(round trip) commute each day, I'm considering an all-electric car as
>my next vehicle.

All-electric cars have the problem of limited range. I'm thinking of
a plug-in Prius for my next car. It's an electric car for short trips,
and a hybrid for long ones. With solar panels on the roof to charge it,
it becomes pretty green.

--
-Ed Falk,
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/

[Jim Macklin]

Billions of Li-ion AA batteries in cars will be a
recycling/disposal nightmare.

We need nuclear powered cars and trucks.

Global warming is only the tip of the iceberg, the whole
solar system is getting hotter. Jupiter has a new Red Spot,
Mars ice caps are receding and the Rovers are getting
considerably more power than was predicted. Even Pluto is
getting hot, up to several degree above absolute zero now.


Maybe we now know why the ancient Egyptians worshiped the
Sun.


"Edward A. Falk" > wrote in message
...
| In article
om>,
| Jay Honeck > wrote:
| >> Sounds good to me.
| >
| >Me, too.
| >
| >I could live quite happily without freeways. In fact,
given my 6 mile
| >(round trip) commute each day, I'm considering an
all-electric car as
| >my next vehicle.
|
| All-electric cars have the problem of limited range. I'm
thinking of
| a plug-in Prius for my next car. It's an electric car for
short trips,
| and a hybrid for long ones. With solar panels on the roof
to charge it,
| it becomes pretty green.
|
| --
| -Ed Falk,
| http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Edward A. Falk" <> wrote

> All-electric cars have the problem of limited range. I'm thinking of
> a plug-in Prius for my next car. It's an electric car for short trips,
> and a hybrid for long ones. With solar panels on the roof to charge it,
> it becomes pretty green.

Unless you park it for a few weeks between uses, solar cells don't come
close to providing enough power to make it a viable charging option.
--
Jim in NC

[[email protected]]

In rec.aviation.owning Morgans > wrote:

> "Edward A. Falk" <> wrote

> > All-electric cars have the problem of limited range. I'm thinking of
> > a plug-in Prius for my next car. It's an electric car for short trips,
> > and a hybrid for long ones. With solar panels on the roof to charge it,
> > it becomes pretty green.

> Unless you park it for a few weeks between uses, solar cells don't come
> close to providing enough power to make it a viable charging option.
> --
> Jim in NC

Actually, if you covered the entire area of a Prius with the best
solar cells you can buy and parked it for 8 hours in Tucson in the
middle of summer, you could go a few feet.

1 hp = 746 Watts

Get the available sunlight energy from:
http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/old_data/nsrdb/redbook/atlas/serve.cgi

Really good solar cells are about 20% efficient.

You do the math.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Matt Whiting]

Edward A. Falk wrote:
> In article om>,
> Jay Honeck > wrote:
>>> Sounds good to me.
>> Me, too.
>>
>> I could live quite happily without freeways. In fact, given my 6 mile
>> (round trip) commute each day, I'm considering an all-electric car as
>> my next vehicle.
>
> All-electric cars have the problem of limited range. I'm thinking of
> a plug-in Prius for my next car. It's an electric car for short trips,
> and a hybrid for long ones. With solar panels on the roof to charge it,
> it becomes pretty green.
>

Have you researched the process of making solar panels? Things aren't
as "green" as they seem...

Matt

[Scott[_1_]]

What voltage do those cars use? I assume it's more than 12V. If so,
you'll have to series connect several solar panels to match what you
need. And then, if it's an oddball voltage, you'll have to build your
own charge controller to keep from overcharging. And then, does the
battery type used require a constant voltage or constant current to
charge them. If constant current, you will have to build your own
current source. None of this is un-doable, just some dinking around.
If the voltage required is quite high, you will have a fair investment
in solar panels...

Edward A. Falk wrote:

> In article om>,
> Jay Honeck > wrote:
>
>>>Sounds good to me.
>>
>>Me, too.
>>
>>I could live quite happily without freeways. In fact, given my 6 mile
>>(round trip) commute each day, I'm considering an all-electric car as
>>my next vehicle.
>
>
> All-electric cars have the problem of limited range. I'm thinking of
> a plug-in Prius for my next car. It's an electric car for short trips,
> and a hybrid for long ones. With solar panels on the roof to charge it,
> it becomes pretty green.
>

--
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)

[Jim Macklin]

The current crop of electric hybrids use about 4,000 AA
Li-ion batteries in series-parallel to get 800-1000 VDC for
the motors.



"Scott" > wrote in message
.. .
| What voltage do those cars use? I assume it's more than
12V. If so,
| you'll have to series connect several solar panels to
match what you
| need. And then, if it's an oddball voltage, you'll have
to build your
| own charge controller to keep from overcharging. And
then, does the
| battery type used require a constant voltage or constant
current to
| charge them. If constant current, you will have to build
your own
| current source. None of this is un-doable, just some
dinking around.
| If the voltage required is quite high, you will have a
fair investment
| in solar panels...
|
| Edward A. Falk wrote:
|
| > In article
om>,
| > Jay Honeck > wrote:
| >
| >>>Sounds good to me.
| >>
| >>Me, too.
| >>
| >>I could live quite happily without freeways. In fact,
given my 6 mile
| >>(round trip) commute each day, I'm considering an
all-electric car as
| >>my next vehicle.
| >
| >
| > All-electric cars have the problem of limited range.
I'm thinking of
| > a plug-in Prius for my next car. It's an electric car
for short trips,
| > and a hybrid for long ones. With solar panels on the
roof to charge it,
| > it becomes pretty green.
| >
|
| --
| Scott
| http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
| Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
| Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)

[Jim Stewart]

Jim Macklin wrote:
> The current crop of electric hybrids use about 4,000 AA
> Li-ion batteries in series-parallel to get 800-1000 VDC for
> the motors.

The specs I've seen on the Honda Accord hybrid
show 120 NiMH cells giving 144 volts at 6.0 Ah

The Prius also uses NiMH cells, a total of 168
and a peak voltage of 201 volts and 6.5 Ah.

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 20:41:30 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
> wrote:

>Billions of Li-ion AA batteries in cars will be a
>recycling/disposal nightmare.
>
Most of the market is still using the older NiMH batteris with far
less capacity than the LI-Ion. But they are on the way.

Roger (K8RI)

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 01:28:19 +0000 (UTC), (Edward
A. Falk) wrote:

>In article om>,
>Jay Honeck > wrote:
>>> Sounds good to me.
>>
>>Me, too.
>>
>>I could live quite happily without freeways. In fact, given my 6 mile
>>(round trip) commute each day, I'm considering an all-electric car as
>>my next vehicle.
>
>All-electric cars have the problem of limited range. I'm thinking of
>a plug-in Prius for my next car. It's an electric car for short trips,

Of course in the US that voids your warranty. In Europe they have a
button on the dash to use it as an all electric when around town and
then go to hybrid for longer trips. Instead of just shy of 50 MPG
they are running in the neighborhood of 100 MPG.

The reason for not having the button in the US is the battery
warranty.

Roger (K8RI)
>and a hybrid for long ones. With solar panels on the roof to charge it,
>it becomes pretty green.

[Mike Spera]

>>
>
> Have you researched the process of making solar panels? Things aren't
> as "green" as they seem...
>
> .lots of stuff snipped

If I recall the article I read a few years back correctly, conventional
glass covered solar panels require more energy to make than they will
ever produce in their entire lives. Anyone have any data?

Mike

[Peter Dohm]

"Jim Stewart" > wrote in message
.. .
> Jim Macklin wrote:
>> The current crop of electric hybrids use about 4,000 AA Li-ion batteries
>> in series-parallel to get 800-1000 VDC for the motors.
>
> The specs I've seen on the Honda Accord hybrid
> show 120 NiMH cells giving 144 volts at 6.0 Ah
>
> The Prius also uses NiMH cells, a total of 168
> and a peak voltage of 201 volts and 6.5 Ah.

That makes more sense; although I admit that the much higher voltage, with
solid state controls, could be fun to watch--from a safe distance.

[Peter Dohm]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Edward A. Falk wrote:
>> In article om>,
>> Jay Honeck > wrote:
>>>> Sounds good to me.
>>> Me, too.
>>>
>>> I could live quite happily without freeways. In fact, given my 6 mile
>>> (round trip) commute each day, I'm considering an all-electric car as
>>> my next vehicle.
>>
>> All-electric cars have the problem of limited range. I'm thinking of
>> a plug-in Prius for my next car. It's an electric car for short trips,
>> and a hybrid for long ones. With solar panels on the roof to charge it,
>> it becomes pretty green.
>>
>
> Have you researched the process of making solar panels? Things aren't as
> "green" as they seem...
>
> Matt

"Green" is a religion, in which party-hack politicians are the gods.

Personally, I prefer a religion in which the only God is more perfect than
any human could even be or even imagine.

[David G. Nagel]

Ray Andraka wrote:
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>
>
>>
>> How is the electricity generated?
>>
>
> by the grid or by a windmill at home. The energy is stored in
> batteries, and in some cases batteries combined with super capacitors

Let's see:

Battery: Lead Acid--Lead/Sulphuric Acid
NICD--Nickle/Cadmimum
NIMH--Nickle/Metal Paste
LiON--Lithium

Capacitors: Various metals--Most poisonous

Windmill: Iron, Copper, Aluminum, misc other materials--Manufacturing of
which can be hazardous. Blades can interfer with bird flight.

Remote power generation: Coal and it's problems. Gas and it's problems.
Nuclear and IT'S problems. Hydro and it's problems.

Nothing is simple, clean and save.

Check the price of your corn flakes next time you fuel up with E85.


Dave N

[Morgans[_2_]]

"David G. Nagel" <> wrote

> Hydro and it's problems.

Problems? What problems? Last I checked, hydro was clean, non polluting,
and has the advantage of helping to control floods.
--
Jim in NC

[Al G[_1_]]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "David G. Nagel" <> wrote
>
>> Hydro and it's problems.
>
> Problems? What problems? Last I checked, hydro was clean, non polluting,
> and has the advantage of helping to control floods.
> --
> Jim in NC
>
The baby fish of course!

Al G

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 17:58:02 -0400, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>
>"David G. Nagel" <> wrote
>
>> Hydro and it's problems.
>
>Problems? What problems? Last I checked, hydro was clean, non polluting,
>and has the advantage of helping to control floods.

Lot of ecological side effects. Good for short term flood control, but
may cause problems long term. A lot depends on the area where the dam
is located.

Roger (K8RI)

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Roger (K8RI)" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 17:58:02 -0400, "Morgans"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>"David G. Nagel" <> wrote
>>
>>> Hydro and it's problems.
>>
>>Problems? What problems? Last I checked, hydro was clean, non polluting,
>>and has the advantage of helping to control floods.
>
> Lot of ecological side effects. Good for short term flood control, but
> may cause problems long term. A lot depends on the area where the dam
> is located.
>
What sort of "problems"?

[Mike Noel]

Blocking fish that need to swim upstream to spawn, destroying upstream
habitats by submergence, forcing subsistence farmers off their land and
moving them into overcrowded and polluted cities...
--
Best Regards,
Mike

http://photoshow.comcast.net/mikenoel

A frog in a well does not know the great sea.
"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Roger (K8RI)" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 17:58:02 -0400, "Morgans"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"David G. Nagel" <> wrote
>>>
>>>> Hydro and it's problems.
>>>
>>>Problems? What problems? Last I checked, hydro was clean, non
>>>polluting,
>>>and has the advantage of helping to control floods.
>>
>> Lot of ecological side effects. Good for short term flood control, but
>> may cause problems long term. A lot depends on the area where the dam
>> is located.
>>
> What sort of "problems"?
>

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2007-10-21 14:58:02 -0700, "Morgans" > said:

>
> "David G. Nagel" <> wrote
>
>> Hydro and it's problems.
>
> Problems? What problems? Last I checked, hydro was clean, non polluting,
> and has the advantage of helping to control floods.

Here in the west there is considerable pressure to dismantle the dams
already in place. They are being blamed for weak salmon runs (as if
over-fishing and the recovery in the seal and sea lion population have
had nothing to do with it), concentration of heavy metals near the
dams, flooding of "critical habitat," and just about every other sin
people can think of.

There are environmentalists who believe that the worst possible thing
that could happen to the earth would be for someone to discover a
cheap, non-polluting source of energy.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[news.verizon.net]

These are the same people who think that we should get rid of all the people
of the world except for a few hundred of their fellow believers.


"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
news:200710240644108930-christophercampbell@hotmailcom...
> On 2007-10-21 14:58:02 -0700, "Morgans" > said:
>
>>
>> "David G. Nagel" <> wrote
>>
>>> Hydro and it's problems.
>>
>> Problems? What problems? Last I checked, hydro was clean, non
>> polluting,
>> and has the advantage of helping to control floods.
>
> Here in the west there is considerable pressure to dismantle the dams
> already in place. They are being blamed for weak salmon runs (as if
> over-fishing and the recovery in the seal and sea lion population have had
> nothing to do with it), concentration of heavy metals near the dams,
> flooding of "critical habitat," and just about every other sin people can
> think of.
>
> There are environmentalists who believe that the worst possible thing that
> could happen to the earth would be for someone to discover a cheap,
> non-polluting source of energy.
> --
> Waddling Eagle
> World Famous Flight Instructor
>

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

"Mike Spera" wrote:

> If I recall the article I read a few years back correctly, conventional
> glass covered solar panels require more energy to make than they will ever
> produce in their entire lives. Anyone have any data?

http://jupiter.clarion.edu/~jpearce/Papers/netenergy.pdf


ABSTRACT
A number of detailed studies on the energy requirements on the three types of
photovoltaic (PV) materials, which make up the majority of the active solar
market: single crystal,polycrystalline, and amorphous silicon were reviewed.
It was found that modern PV cells based on these silicon technologies pay for
themselves in terms of energy in a few years (1-5 years). They thus generate
enough energy over their lifetimes to reproduce themselves many times (6-31
reproductions)depending on what type of material, balance of system, and the
geographic location of the system. It was found that regardless of material,
built-in PV systems are a superior ecological choice to centralized PV
plants. Finally, the results indicate that efficiency plays a secondary role
to embodied energy in theoverall net energy production of modern solar cells.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Mike Noel" > wrote in message
. ..
> Blocking fish that need to swim upstream to spawn, destroying upstream
> habitats by submergence, forcing subsistence farmers off their land and
> moving them into overcrowded and polluted cities...
> --
> Best Regards,
> Mike

Yes, I suppose floods are not THAT bad...especially when the Feds can then
bail them out.

Enjoy your futures.

>
> http://photoshow.comcast.net/mikenoel
>
> A frog in a well does not know the great sea.
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Roger (K8RI)" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 17:58:02 -0400, "Morgans"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"David G. Nagel" <> wrote
>>>>
>>>>> Hydro and it's problems.
>>>>
>>>>Problems? What problems? Last I checked, hydro was clean, non
>>>>polluting,
>>>>and has the advantage of helping to control floods.
>>>
>>> Lot of ecological side effects. Good for short term flood control, but
>>> may cause problems long term. A lot depends on the area where the dam
>>> is located.
>>>
>> What sort of "problems"?
>>
>
>

[Edward A. Falk]

In article >,
Morgans > wrote:
>
>"Edward A. Falk" <> wrote
>
>> ... With solar panels on the roof to charge it,
>> it becomes pretty green.
>
> Unless you park it for a few weeks between uses, solar cells don't come
>close to providing enough power to make it a viable charging option.

Ooops. My bad. I meant the roof of my house.

--
-Ed Falk,
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/

[Edward A. Falk]

In article >,
Mike Spera > wrote:
>
>If I recall the article I read a few years back correctly, conventional
>glass covered solar panels require more energy to make than they will
>ever produce in their entire lives. Anyone have any data?

Energy payback is about a year. They have an official lifetime of 30
years*, so it's a 30-1 energy profit over their lifetimes.. This is about
on par with oil pumped from the mid east and better than anything else.
The worst is ethanol with a 1-1 energy profit.

(*that 30-year number is all the manufacturers are willing to guarantee.
I'm told that the actual number is closer to 250.)

--
-Ed Falk,
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/

[Al G[_1_]]

"Edward A. Falk" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Morgans > wrote:
>>
>>"Edward A. Falk" <> wrote
>>
>>> ... With solar panels on the roof to charge it,
>>> it becomes pretty green.
>>
>> Unless you park it for a few weeks between uses, solar cells don't come
>>close to providing enough power to make it a viable charging option.
>
> Ooops. My bad. I meant the roof of my house.
>
> --
> -Ed Falk,
> http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/

So you charge it at night from the solar panels?

Or perhaps you charge batteries in the house on good weather days, and
then transfer to your car at night?

Sunlight
>(with losses)> Solar panel on house
>(with losses)> Battery in house
>(with losses)> Battery in car
>(with losses)> motor.

This is pretty green?

How many good weather days will it take to drive to work once?

Al G

[Mike Spera]

>>If I recall the article I read a few years back correctly, conventional
>>glass covered solar panels require more energy to make than they will ever
>>produce in their entire lives. Anyone have any data?
>
>
> http://jupiter.clarion.edu/~jpearce/Papers/netenergy.pdf
>
>
> ABSTRACT
> A number of detailed studies on the energy requirements on the three types of
> photovoltaic (PV) materials, which make up the majority of the active solar
> market: single crystal,polycrystalline, and amorphous silicon were reviewed.
> It was found that modern PV cells based on these silicon technologies pay for
> themselves in terms of energy in a few years (1-5 years). They thus generate
> enough energy over their lifetimes to reproduce themselves many times (6-31
> reproductions)depending on what type of material, balance of system, and the
> geographic location of the system. It was found that regardless of material,
> built-in PV systems are a superior ecological choice to centralized PV
> plants. Finally, the results indicate that efficiency plays a secondary role
> to embodied energy in theoverall net energy production of modern solar cells.
>
>

Interesting, but this study readily admits in both paragraphs under
"Introduction" that total LCA (life cycle analysis) for the
gathering/mining of the raw materials, transportation of all materials,
entire production of the cells, glass panels, metal frames, batteries,
wiring, electronics, and disposal/recycling of all components is too
difficult and that each individual system would have to be quantified
independently.

Thus, their conclusions above are based only on "Net Energy Analysis"
(the study of only the PV cells themselves).

I would like to believe there is a solution to the energy problem. Not
sure yet if PV is it.

Thanks for the info and research. It was interesting.

Mike

[Terry K]

http://www.pubs.royalsoc.ac.uk/media/proceedings_a/rspa20071880.pdf
suggests the sun has no effect on climate.

Or, that we we cannot presently correlate sun and climate. Or there is
some interfering data swamping a comparatively small effect.

If not the sun, how about our dirt? It lives, excretes, and is deep,
to boot. Who understands zero gee fission? we are ice on a fireball.
We are the snowball surrounding hell, walking around on a little
insulating frozen rock floating on a lake of magma.

Cheap renewable power? Geothermal, solar steam, wind, tidal.

Real expense? Transmission, overpopulation?

Private planes to eliminate highway congestion? The highway, be it
asphalt or air, is no more than an extension of the parking lot. Are
we gonna have sky garages 20 floors tall and elevator parking for
excess idle Mohler sky machinery, or are we gonna take air taxis? How
many pedestrians squashed by crashing cabs before we try dirigible
busses, or living with parachutes in our office?

I see city buildings before commuter conveniences. Land is limited. I
see deep wells for Icelandic power, even air conditioning. I see tube
trains surrounding volcanic artifacts linking ring of fire hot spots.
I count the calories produced by cities in their warm spots with their
reflective sky scrapers and steam pipes warmed by moving lightweight
reflectors.

I see wind power to produce compressed air, liquid nitrogen and
ultimately, hydrogen to be burned on site to put power into the grid
when needed.

Can liquid nitrogen be used to operate a Stirling cycle engine or
turbine warmed by ambient air? What is it's energy density next to
gasoline or hydrogen? What about it's seasonal efficiency?

Our oil problems are really political marketing.

Terry K

[Tom S.]

"Terry K" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> http://www.pubs.royalsoc.ac.uk/media/proceedings_a/rspa20071880.pdf
> suggests the sun has no effect on climate.

I guess they never heard of "seasons".

This paper refutes the above paper:
http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/reprint/Critique_Lockwood_Gregory/critique_lockwood.pdf

[Roger (K8RI)]

On 31 Oct 2007 15:16:07 -0700, Terry K > wrote:

>
>http://www.pubs.royalsoc.ac.uk/media/proceedings_a/rspa20071880.pdf
>suggests the sun has no effect on climate.
>
>Or, that we we cannot presently correlate sun and climate. Or there is
>some interfering data swamping a comparatively small effect.

The sun's effect is easily measured and has been for decades.
It's done by a method called the "pan evaporation rate". The
inconsistency is the pan evaporation rate has been going down for at
least the last three decades or more. That would indicate the amount
of energy from the sun reaching the earth has been steadily dropping
for over 30 years. A Google search should give the process in detail.

>
>If not the sun, how about our dirt? It lives, excretes, and is deep,
>to boot. Who understands zero gee fission? we are ice on a fireball.
>We are the snowball surrounding hell, walking around on a little
>insulating frozen rock floating on a lake of magma.
>
>Cheap renewable power? Geothermal, solar steam, wind, tidal.
>
>Real expense? Transmission, overpopulation?
>
>Private planes to eliminate highway congestion? The highway, be it
>asphalt or air, is no more than an extension of the parking lot. Are
>we gonna have sky garages 20 floors tall and elevator parking for
>excess idle Mohler sky machinery, or are we gonna take air taxis? How
>many pedestrians squashed by crashing cabs before we try dirigible
>busses, or living with parachutes in our office?

None of the sky routes are economical.
A quick check will show some high rises in NY do have parachutes for
emergencies although I'd not think they'd be practical.

>
>I see city buildings before commuter conveniences. Land is limited. I
>see deep wells for Icelandic power, even air conditioning. I see tube
>trains surrounding volcanic artifacts linking ring of fire hot spots.
>I count the calories produced by cities in their warm spots with their
>reflective sky scrapers and steam pipes warmed by moving lightweight
>reflectors.
>
>I see wind power to produce compressed air, liquid nitrogen and

Liquid nitrogen is very inefficient as it takes a lot of energy to
produce and the only energy you get out is the expansion from
evaporation and expansion.

>ultimately, hydrogen to be burned on site to put power into the grid
>when needed.

Hydrogen too is expensive to produce on a large scale and remain a
viable economic alternative to gas, expensive to store and expensive
to transport although not nearly as dangerous as most think. It also
takes more energy to produce the gas than you can get back out of it.
Liquefying it takes even more. However Hydrogen contains far more
energy than liquid Nitrogen as you can use Hydrogen in combustion and
produce a fair amount of clean energy.

>
>Can liquid nitrogen be used to operate a Stirling cycle engine or
>turbine warmed by ambient air? What is it's energy density next to
>gasoline or hydrogen? What about it's seasonal efficiency?

Compared to combustible fuels it's very poor although I don't have the
numbers right at my fingertips. Gasoline is considerably higher than
Hydrogen due to all the carbon.

>
>Our oil problems are really political marketing.

Only partially. Unstable sources, unfriendly sources, poorly
accessible sources, long and expensive transportation routes, all lead
to price sensitivity. It along with coal is also a big source of
pollution.

Roger (K8RI)
>
>Terry K

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Thu, 1 Nov 2007 12:48:16 -0700, "Tom S." >
wrote:

>
>"Terry K" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>>
>> http://www.pubs.royalsoc.ac.uk/media/proceedings_a/rspa20071880.pdf
>> suggests the sun has no effect on climate.
>
>I guess they never heard of "seasons".
>
>This paper refutes the above paper:
>http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/reprint/Critique_Lockwood_Gregory/critique_lockwood.pdf
>
And this paper too appears to have some flaws. It ignores the Pan
evaporation rate which has shown the amount of energy from the sun
reaching the earth's surface has been going down for decades.

Also it denies the major effect of CO2 while current scientists have
overwhelmingly accepted CO2 as the prime driver.

Still in the end the ONLY source for earth's energy we see does come
from the sun with the exception of a small amount of leakage from the
earth's core.

Both papers have some serious conflicts with today's accepted
theories.

Roger (K8RI)