New prop, one less AD, and some great customer service from Hartzell

[Jack Allison]

This past December, I was lamenting our options in dealing with AD
2006-18-15, the repetitive eddy current inspections on our Hartzell prop
hub. Our prop had been through three overhauls and it likely would not
have made it through one more (prop shop did some measurements while on
the plane and it was a matter of how thick the paint was as to whether
or not it could go through another overhaul).

We considered repetitive inspections as well as priced out our options
for 2-blade replacement props. We'd ruled out 3-blade options mostly
due to the increased cost.

After posting about it here in r.a.o (see:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.owning/browse_thread/thread/107f069d1669d8a1/7cb6c816188d4d93),
I received an e-mail from Kevin Ryan at Hartzell telling me about
their 40% discount on a replacement prop and hub. As it turns out, this
was about 1.2 AMUs less than what a local prop shop had quoted me for a
2-blade McCauley prop & hub. My partners and I pondered the options and
decided to go with the Hartzell option.

This past week we had the prop installed and it looks and works just
fine. Yea, for us, AD 2006-18-15 has been terminated.

One thing I wanted to mention is the great customer service response
from Hartzell. I'd been a little soured on them due to a pretty lame
response to my questions of their guy at their booth during the 2006
AOPA expo. My experience in dealing with Hartzell for the replacement
prop, however, dramatically turned my opinion around. Kevin provided
all of the information for ordering the prop as well as answering a
bunch of questions about returning the old prop. It was a very positive
interaction and in the end, we received exactly what we were looking for
at a substantial discount.

If anyone wants Kevin's e-mail address, drop me an e-mail. Unless, of
course, you're reading this Kevin and feel like increasing your spam
intake by posting your e-mail address. :-) It could be a test of
Hartzell's spam filters, eh?

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-Instrument Airplane

"To become a Jedi knight, you must master a single force. To become
a private pilot you must strive to master four of them"
- Rod Machado

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Robert M. Gary]

On Oct 20, 6:44 pm, Jack Allison >
wrote:
> This past December, I was lamenting our options in dealing with AD
> 2006-18-15, the repetitive eddy current inspections on our Hartzell prop
> hub. Our prop had been through three overhauls and it likely would not
> have made it through one more (prop shop did some measurements while on
> the plane and it was a matter of how thick the paint was as to whether
> or not it could go through another overhaul).
>
> We considered repetitive inspections as well as priced out our options
> for 2-blade replacement props. We'd ruled out 3-blade options mostly
> due to the increased cost.
>
> After posting about it here in r.a.o (see:http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.owning/browse_thread/thre...),
> I received an e-mail from Kevin Ryan at Hartzell telling me about
> their 40% discount on a replacement prop and hub. As it turns out, this
> was about 1.2 AMUs less than what a local prop shop had quoted me for a
> 2-blade McCauley prop & hub. My partners and I pondered the options and
> decided to go with the Hartzell option.

I think the discount ended at the end of September. I considered it as
well but ended up doing the ECI. My blades are also near limits.
However, I've heard a lot of good things about the new 2 blade
composite available from Lake Aero. The price is only a bit more than
the Hartzell discount so I decided to continue doing the ECI and if I
knick a blade I'll pay the extra 1.5 AMU for the new composite prop.
People are claiming 3-5 knots extra on the new prop but the
interesting thing about the new prop is that it (in theory) has an
unlimited life span. During overhaul the blades do not get smaller as
metal blades do so you can overhaul it as many times as necessary.
I just had my ECI done at Stockton. $350 plus an AM off work but it
only took an hour. The shop has a deal that they use Top Gun's hanger
so they can do it on the field.

-Robert

[Jay Honeck]

> People are claiming 3-5 knots extra on the new prop but the
> interesting thing about the new prop is that it (in theory) has an
> unlimited life span. During overhaul the blades do not get smaller as
> metal blades do so you can overhaul it as many times as necessary.

What's involved with overhauling a composite prop?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim Burns[_2_]]

My understanding as explained by a friend/A&P/IA/Part137 guy who is working
with MT to apply one of their models to PT6 driven AirTractors is that the
interior hub and bearing work is fairly normal however after the blades are
ground they are built back up and finished to original factory specs.
Jim

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> > People are claiming 3-5 knots extra on the new prop but the
> > interesting thing about the new prop is that it (in theory) has an
> > unlimited life span. During overhaul the blades do not get smaller as
> > metal blades do so you can overhaul it as many times as necessary.
>
> What's involved with overhauling a composite prop?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Robert M. Gary]

On Oct 22, 12:24 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> > People are claiming 3-5 knots extra on the new prop but the
> > interesting thing about the new prop is that it (in theory) has an
> > unlimited life span. During overhaul the blades do not get smaller as
> > metal blades do so you can overhaul it as many times as necessary.
>
> What's involved with overhauling a composite prop?

I believe after they are ground they are built-up again.

-Robert

[Peter Clark]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 20:25:15 -0000, "Robert M. Gary"
> wrote:

>On Oct 22, 12:24 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:
>> > People are claiming 3-5 knots extra on the new prop but the
>> > interesting thing about the new prop is that it (in theory) has an
>> > unlimited life span. During overhaul the blades do not get smaller as
>> > metal blades do so you can overhaul it as many times as necessary.
>>
>> What's involved with overhauling a composite prop?
>
>I believe after they are ground they are built-up again.

Some also have (titanium?) erosion strip on the leading edge so that
you can replace the strip if you somehow manage to dent it.

[[email protected]]

On Oct 20, 7:44 pm, Jack Allison >
wrote:
> This past December, I was lamenting our options in dealing with AD
> 2006-18-15, the repetitive eddy current inspections on our Hartzell prop
> hub. Our prop had been through three overhauls and it likely would not
> have made it through one more (prop shop did some measurements while on
> the plane and it was a matter of how thick the paint was as to whether
> or not it could go through another overhaul).
>
> We considered repetitive inspections as well as priced out our options
> for 2-blade replacement props. We'd ruled out 3-blade options mostly
> due to the increased cost.
>
> After posting about it here in r.a.o (see:http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.owning/browse_thread/thre...),
> I received an e-mail from Kevin Ryan at Hartzell telling me about
> their 40% discount on a replacement prop and hub. As it turns out, this
> was about 1.2 AMUs less than what a local prop shop had quoted me for a
> 2-blade McCauley prop & hub. My partners and I pondered the options and
> decided to go with the Hartzell option.
>
> This past week we had the prop installed and it looks and works just
> fine. Yea, for us, AD 2006-18-15 has been terminated.
>
> One thing I wanted to mention is the great customer service response
> from Hartzell. I'd been a little soured on them due to a pretty lame
> response to my questions of their guy at their booth during the 2006
> AOPA expo. My experience in dealing with Hartzell for the replacement
> prop, however, dramatically turned my opinion around. Kevin provided
> all of the information for ordering the prop as well as answering a
> bunch of questions about returning the old prop. It was a very positive
> interaction and in the end, we received exactly what we were looking for
> at a substantial discount.
>
> If anyone wants Kevin's e-mail address, drop me an e-mail. Unless, of
> course, you're reading this Kevin and feel like increasing your spam
> intake by posting your e-mail address. :-) It could be a test of
> Hartzell's spam filters, eh?
>
> --
> Jack Allison
> PP-ASEL-Instrument Airplane
>
> "To become a Jedi knight, you must master a single force. To become
> a private pilot you must strive to master four of them"
> - Rod Machado
>
> (Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

Congrats to Hartzell and Kevin for stepping up to the plane and
accepting some responsibility for a marginal design of the hub. A
very nobel act in this day and age..

Ben

[Robert M. Gary]

On Oct 22, 7:42 pm, " > wrote:
> On Oct 20, 7:44 pm, Jack Allison >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > This past December, I was lamenting our options in dealing with AD
> > 2006-18-15, the repetitive eddy current inspections on our Hartzell prop
> > hub. Our prop had been through three overhauls and it likely would not
> > have made it through one more (prop shop did some measurements while on
> > the plane and it was a matter of how thick the paint was as to whether
> > or not it could go through another overhaul).
>
> > We considered repetitive inspections as well as priced out our options
> > for 2-blade replacement props. We'd ruled out 3-blade options mostly
> > due to the increased cost.
>
> > After posting about it here in r.a.o (see:http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.owning/browse_thread/thre...),
> > I received an e-mail from Kevin Ryan at Hartzell telling me about
> > their 40% discount on a replacement prop and hub. As it turns out, this
> > was about 1.2 AMUs less than what a local prop shop had quoted me for a
> > 2-blade McCauley prop & hub. My partners and I pondered the options and
> > decided to go with the Hartzell option.
>
> > This past week we had the prop installed and it looks and works just
> > fine. Yea, for us, AD 2006-18-15 has been terminated.
>
> > One thing I wanted to mention is the great customer service response
> > from Hartzell. I'd been a little soured on them due to a pretty lame
> > response to my questions of their guy at their booth during the 2006
> > AOPA expo. My experience in dealing with Hartzell for the replacement
> > prop, however, dramatically turned my opinion around. Kevin provided
> > all of the information for ordering the prop as well as answering a
> > bunch of questions about returning the old prop. It was a very positive
> > interaction and in the end, we received exactly what we were looking for
> > at a substantial discount.
>
> > If anyone wants Kevin's e-mail address, drop me an e-mail. Unless, of
> > course, you're reading this Kevin and feel like increasing your spam
> > intake by posting your e-mail address. :-) It could be a test of
> > Hartzell's spam filters, eh?
>
> > --
> > Jack Allison
> > PP-ASEL-Instrument Airplane
>
> > "To become a Jedi knight, you must master a single force. To become
> > a private pilot you must strive to master four of them"
> > - Rod Machado
>
> > (Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)
>
> Congrats to Hartzell and Kevin for stepping up to the plane and
> accepting some responsibility for a marginal design of the hub. A
> very nobel act in this day and age..

A "marginal design" that has worked without problems since the 70's.
Certainly much more reliable than anything Lycoming, Cont., Cessna,
King, etc have ever made.

-Robert

[[email protected]]

: > Congrats to Hartzell and Kevin for stepping up to the plane and
: > accepting some responsibility for a marginal design of the hub. A
: > very nobel act in this day and age..

: A "marginal design" that has worked without problems since the 70's.
: Certainly much more reliable than anything Lycoming, Cont., Cessna,
: King, etc have ever made.

: -Robert

Engineering (*especially in aviation*) is about making something as strong as necessary, but no stronger.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[[email protected]]

On Oct 23, 6:27 pm, wrote:
> : > Congrats to Hartzell and Kevin for stepping up to the plane and
> : > accepting some responsibility for a marginal design of the hub. A
> : > very nobel act in this day and age..
>
> : A "marginal design" that has worked without problems since the 70's.
> : Certainly much more reliable than anything Lycoming, Cont., Cessna,
> : King, etc have ever made.
>
> : -Robert
>
> Engineering (*especially in aviation*) is about making something as strong as necessary, but no stronger.
>
> -Cory
>
> --
>
> ************************************************** ***********************
> * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
> * Electrical Engineering *
> * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
> ************************************************** ***********************

If there has not been "any problems" with it why is there a repetitive
eddy current inspection on Hartzell prop hubs. ????

Inquiring minds and all....

Ben

[RST Engineering]

Ya don't really understand the incestuous relationship between the FAA and
the aircraft manufacturers, do ya?

Jim




> If there has not been "any problems" with it why is there a repetitive
> eddy current inspection on Hartzell prop hubs. ????
>
> Inquiring minds and all....
>
> Ben
>

[Robert M. Gary]

On Oct 24, 7:31 am, " > wrote:
> On Oct 23, 6:27 pm, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > : > Congrats to Hartzell and Kevin for stepping up to the plane and
> > : > accepting some responsibility for a marginal design of the hub. A
> > : > very nobel act in this day and age..
>
> > : A "marginal design" that has worked without problems since the 70's.
> > : Certainly much more reliable than anything Lycoming, Cont., Cessna,
> > : King, etc have ever made.
>
> > : -Robert
>
> > Engineering (*especially in aviation*) is about making something as strong as necessary, but no stronger.
>
> > -Cory
>
> > --
>
> > ************************************************** ***********************
> > * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
> > * Electrical Engineering *
> > * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
> > ************************************************** ***********************
>
> If there has not been "any problems" with it why is there a repetitive
> eddy current inspection on Hartzell prop hubs. ????

Because companies who have reliable products don't sell enough
products. Toss in the fact that the FAA will issue an AD almost
anytime a company asks for it you have your answer.

-Robert

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article . com>,
"Robert M. Gary" > wrote:

> On Oct 24, 7:31 am, " > wrote:
> > On Oct 23, 6:27 pm, wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > : > Congrats to Hartzell and Kevin for stepping up to the plane and
> > > : > accepting some responsibility for a marginal design of the hub. A
> > > : > very nobel act in this day and age..
> >
> > > : A "marginal design" that has worked without problems since the 70's.
> > > : Certainly much more reliable than anything Lycoming, Cont., Cessna,
> > > : King, etc have ever made.
> >
> > > : -Robert
> >
> > > Engineering (*especially in aviation*) is about making something
> > > as strong as necessary, but no stronger.
> >
> > > -Cory
> >
> > > --
> >
> > > ************************************************** ***********************
> > > * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
> > > * Electrical Engineering *
> > > * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
> > > ************************************************** ***********************
> >
> > If there has not been "any problems" with it why is there a repetitive
> > eddy current inspection on Hartzell prop hubs. ????
>
> Because companies who have reliable products don't sell enough
> products. Toss in the fact that the FAA will issue an AD almost
> anytime a company asks for it you have your answer.
>
> -Robert

That is especially true of Hartzell. One of their propellers requires an
"optical conformity check" to assure that the blases conform to Hartzell
specs. Only problem is that some owners submitted zero-time blades,
which failed the test!

The word is, "never ship your prop to Hartzell -- they will junk it and
sell you a new one."

[[email protected]]

On Oct 24, 10:36 am, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> On Oct 24, 7:31 am, " > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 23, 6:27 pm, wrote:
>
> > > : > Congrats to Hartzell and Kevin for stepping up to the plane and
> > > : > accepting some responsibility for a marginal design of the hub. A
> > > : > very nobel act in this day and age..
>
> > > : A "marginal design" that has worked without problems since the 70's.
> > > : Certainly much more reliable than anything Lycoming, Cont., Cessna,
> > > : King, etc have ever made.
>
> > > : -Robert
>
> > > Engineering (*especially in aviation*) is about making something as strong as necessary, but no stronger.
>
> > > -Cory
>
> > > --
>
> > > ************************************************** ***********************
> > > * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
> > > * Electrical Engineering *
> > > * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
> > > ************************************************** ***********************
>
> > If there has not been "any problems" with it why is there a repetitive
> > eddy current inspection on Hartzell prop hubs. ????
>
> Because companies who have reliable products don't sell enough
> products. Toss in the fact that the FAA will issue an AD almost
> anytime a company asks for it you have your answer.
>
> -Robert- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Ya, I kinda thought about that just as I hit the send key. I have
owned a few certified planes and most of the AD's I had to comply with
made me just shake my head in disbelief. Thats why I have an
experimental homebuilt now. I NEVER want to see a yellow tag again
either. I have had a few "yellowtagged" components try to kill me....

Ben

[Viperdoc]

I had my MT composite prop overhauled this year. The hub needed some
machining, but if the blades are damaged they are replaced. The leading edge
is nickel, but the rest is wood laminate for weight.

They do not do well in rain, since it chips the paint off of the wood.