40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.

[ArtKramr]

My website just passed the 40,000 hit mark. more than I ever dreamt possible,
athough Bob McKellar knew it all along. I never thought there was so much
interest in that war so long gone and behind us. Thank you all for your
constant repeat visits and warm, encouraging E-Mails that come on a daily basis
from all over the world.. Makes this old Bombardier feel good all over.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Autocollimator]

>Subject: 40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.
>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 10/30/03 6:46 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>My website just passed the 40,000 hit mark. more than I ever dreamt possible,
>athough Bob McKellar knew it all along. I never thought there was so much
>interest in that war so long gone and behind us. Thank you all for your
>constant repeat visits and warm, encouraging E-Mails that come on a daily
>basis
>from all over the world.. Makes this old Bombardier feel good all over.
>
>Arthur Kramer
>344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>


Your stuff is the most interesting on this NG. You can't beat being there no
matter what. I look for your posts every time I log on. Keep 'em flying.

[Mike Marron]

> (Autocollimator) wrote:
(ArtKramr) wrote:

>>My website just passed the 40,000 hit mark. more than I ever dreamt possible,
>>athough Bob McKellar knew it all along. I never thought there was so much
>>interest in that war so long gone and behind us. Thank you all for your
>>constant repeat visits and warm, encouraging E-Mails that come on a daily
>>basis from all over the world.. Makes this old Bombardier feel good all over.

>Your stuff is the most interesting on this NG. You can't beat being there no
>matter what. I look for your posts every time I log on. Keep 'em flying.

Since it's Halloween and all, just curious Art if you will you be
removing your "Autocollimator" mask after tonight? You're not
fooling anyone here but your own silly self, ya' know.

For the rest of the happy group assembled, here is an example of how
"Art Kramer" formats his posts....

>Subject: Re: Little friend takes big brother home.
>From: (Autocollimator)
>Date: 10/29/03 6:48 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >


Now here is an example of how "Autocollimator" formats his posts.....


>Subject: Little friend takes big brother home.
>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 10/29/03 11:21 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >


In addition to the formatting styles that are *exactly* the same,
interesting that Kramer and "Autocollimator" messages both
originate from an AOL account as well.

Below is Kramer (masquerading as "Autocollimator") on his
'been-there-done-that' high horse. Note the misspelled
words -- which of course is *classic* Art Kramer....

>No a surety, not just a possibility. Have you ever gotten off the
>ground in a miliatry aircraft? I think not.

Below is "Autocollimator" bashing Republicans. Kramer is also
a known Republican-basher...

>At least the Republican party will. But be fair. They really need that
>mney for more tax cuts for the rich.

"Autocollimator" (e.g: Kramer) denigrating Republicans again...

>If we are in Rumsfeld's hands, God help us all.

And "Autocollimator" (e.g: Kramer) bashing Republicans again.......

>Thousands flew in the air war in WW II. What the hell is the big deal
>about old man Bush???

Now the examples below are REALLY pathetic. First, Kramer writes
a short story entitled "Little friend takes big brother home" then
"Autocollimator" gives thanks to "Art Kramer" for writing the story.
In other words, Kramer is saying "thank you" to ->himself<- (!!!)

>Autocollimator:
>Great story. Thanks for posting it. I envy you your combat
>experience..Keep the war stories coming.

>Kramer:
>Thanks. I'll keep 'em coming.

And here's another nauseating and pathetic little lovefest that Kramer
is publically having with HIMSELF.....

>Kramer:
>I guess that it happened many times, but I saw it only once. It
>is a sight that never can be forgotten.

>Autocollimator:
>Your vivid memory is our gain. Thanks again.

Halloween "tricks or treats" aside, you_are_one_sick_puppy, Kramer.
Seriously! Please get help.

[ArtKramr]

>ubject: Re: 40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.
>From: Mike Marron
>Date: 10/31/03 6:16 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >

>No a surety, not just a possibility. Have you ever gotten off the
>>ground in a miliatry aircraft? I think not.

I have, have you? I think not. In fact everyone here knows not. Jealousy is a
terrible thing. You are even jeaolus of Autocollimator. How pathetic you are.
Never had the guts to fly in the military have you? We call that cowardice.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Mike Marron]

More excerpts of "Autocollimator" (e.g: Kramer) having discussions
with himself....

>Still wallowing down in the mud huh.

>Irrelevant means no.

>Of course once the crew ditched the aircraft threory became
>practice pretty friggin fast. Or hadn't that occured to you?

>As I understand it Art is the only one in this NG that actually flew
>combat in WWII as aircrew.So I will take his view above all those
>that never flew as aircrew in WW II. As far as wallowing in the
>mud goes, look to yourself.

>Yes it does. But do YOU have anything to do with military aviation?

>I think Art may be talking about "one a day in Tampa Bay" not hanger drills.

>Less chance of that as experience has shown us.

>We must never confuse the ones who only talk the talk with those who actually
>walked the walk.

>I checked that post and the "Major" never came right out and named art at all.
>No wonder Art never replied. Did the Warrior Class major lose his nerve?

>Exactly the same as you.

>Funny but probably true.

>I would say that in a thread called Nazi Oil the basic subject IS WW II. If
>WW II doesn't interest you,go elsewhere.

>If we are in Rumsfeld's hands, God help us all.

>Your vivid memory is our gain. Thanks again.

>Great story. Thanks for posting it. I envy you your combat experience..Keep the
>war stories coming.

>Your stuff is the most interesting on this NG. You can't beat being there no
>matter what. I look for your posts every time I log on. Keep 'em flying.

>While the Japs were beheading American flyers we were sending German prisoners
>to Kansas where they got better food and medical attention than they ever had
>in their miserable Nazi lives, Many stayed to marry American woman and are
>among us to this day. Your comparison to how the Japs treated prisoners and how
>we did is odious and disgusting. I can only attribute it your ignorance of
>the history of the period.. Now why don't you take your crappy Piper Cub and
>shove it where the sun don't shine..Imbecile.

>Have been reading your website. Great stuff . I have some questions. We'll do
>it e-mail. Thanks.

>That is easy to beat. A Stinson stretcher bearer plane taking a badly wounded
>aircrew member who can't be treated at the small hospital on our airbase to a
>large hospital in London for care. Just watch the Stinson lift off with one of
>your aircrew in the stretcher, clear the pattern and head for London to save
>the life of one of our own. That is true beauty.

>UPTOOTH ? WHAT IS AN UPTOOTH?

>Next time the Kauts have you by the throats don't come whining to us for help
>again. .We'll let then eat you as we should have in the first place, Nations
>that are defenseless shouldn't be so arrogant.

>South African? That is a Brit that coculdn't quite make it. But you sound more
>like an Arab to me. Sure you are not an Arab and ashamed of it?

>What was the name of his book?

>We don't know what might have happened. We only know what did happen to the
>everlasting shame of the German people.

>Sadly true.

>Then there are those idiots who don't know that to this day there are many
>Germans who believe in Hitler and the Nazi cause and want to bring it all back
>These are the worst idiots of all..

>Conjecture based on bias.

>There is a rather extensive body of thought that maintains that Heisenburg was
>deliberately obstructionist.


Since it's Halloween and all, just curious Art if you will you be
removing your "Autocollimator" mask after tonight? You're not
fooling anyone here but your own silly self, ya' know.

For the rest of the happy group assembled, here is an example of how
"Art Kramer" formats his posts....

>Subject: Re: Little friend takes big brother home.
>From: (Autocollimator)
>Date: 10/29/03 6:48 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >


Now here is an example of how "Autocollimator" formats his posts.....


>Subject: Little friend takes big brother home.
>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 10/29/03 11:21 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >


In addition to the formatting styles that are *exactly* the same,
interesting that Kramer and "Autocollimator" messages both
originate from an AOL account as well.

Below is Kramer (masquerading as "Autocollimator") on his
'been-there-done-that' high horse. Note the misspelled
words -- which of course is *classic* Art Kramer....

>No a surety, not just a possibility. Have you ever gotten off the
>ground in a miliatry aircraft? I think not.

Below is "Autocollimator" bashing Republicans. Kramer is also
a known Republican-basher...

>At least the Republican party will. But be fair. They really need that
>mney for more tax cuts for the rich.

"Autocollimator" (e.g: Kramer) denigrating Republicans again...

>If we are in Rumsfeld's hands, God help us all.

And "Autocollimator" (e.g: Kramer) bashing Republicans again.......

>Thousands flew in the air war in WW II. What the hell is the big deal
>about old man Bush???

Now the examples below are REALLY pathetic. First, Kramer writes
a short story entitled "Little friend takes big brother home" then
"Autocollimator" gives thanks to "Art Kramer" for writing the story.
In other words, Kramer is saying "thank you" to ->himself<- (!!!)

>Autocollimator:
>Great story. Thanks for posting it. I envy you your combat
>experience..Keep the war stories coming.

>Kramer:
>Thanks. I'll keep 'em coming.

And here's another nauseating and pathetic little lovefest that Kramer
is publically having with HIMSELF.....

>Kramer:
>I guess that it happened many times, but I saw it only once. It
>is a sight that never can be forgotten.

>Autocollimator:
>Your vivid memory is our gain. Thanks again.

Halloween "tricks or treats" aside, you_are_one_sick_puppy, Kramer.
Seriously! Please get help.

[MLenoch]

>Halloween "tricks or treats" aside, you_are_one_sick_puppy, Kramer.
>Seriously! Please get help.
>

Eh...............he who casts the first stone..........ah, its not worth
arguing about. He won't get it.
VL

[Mike Marron]

> (MLenoch) wrote:

>>Halloween "tricks or treats" aside, you_are_one_sick_puppy, Kramer.
>>Seriously! Please get help.

>Eh...............he who casts the first stone..........ah, its not worth
>arguing about. He won't get it.

Unlike Kramer/Autocollimator, I'm always proud to sign my real name on
all my posts. Now, you can excuse Kramer's pathetic behavior if you
wish, but as far as I'm concerned Kramer and his "Autocollimator"
alter ego have absolutely NO credibility.

An AOLer by any other name....

[Peter Stickney]

In article >,
Mike Marron > writes:
> For the rest of the happy group assembled, here is an example of how
> "Art Kramer" formats his posts....
>
>>Subject: Re: Little friend takes big brother home.
>>From: (Autocollimator)
>>Date: 10/29/03 6:48 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>
>
> Now here is an example of how "Autocollimator" formats his posts.....
>
>
>>Subject: Little friend takes big brother home.
>>From: (ArtKramr)
>>Date: 10/29/03 11:21 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>
>
> In addition to the formatting styles that are *exactly* the same,
> interesting that Kramer and "Autocollimator" messages both
> originate from an AOL account as well.

There's only one problem with that, Mike. Autocollimater's posts are
coming through nntp (Net News Transport Protocol) Server
,
and Art's are coming through nntp server mb-m10.aol.com.
AOL, like everybody else, has their News Servers set up to handle a
particular set of POP (Points of Presense), and, therefore, service a
particular geographic area. The area serviced by an nntp server is
large enough that, say, calling a POP in an adjacent locale will, by
and large, have you posting your stuff through the same server. So
what those message IDs are telling us is that Art and Autocollimater
may well be in the same Time Zone, but they aren't near each other.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

[Gordon]

>
>An AOLer by any other name....
>

Like me, Mike? I worked for AOL back in the 1990s and amassed a gigantic
account of free access time, so I still use it. I happen to like AOL, for no
other reason than I know the interface like the backside of Britney Spears.

Gordon

[Mike Marron]

(Gordon) wrote:
>>Mike Marron wrote:

>>An AOLer by any other name....

>Like me, Mike?

No, like Art Kramer and his alter-ego "Autocollimator" screen name...

"I think Art may be talking about "one a day in Tampa Bay" not hanger
drills."

--"Autocollimator" (e.g: Art Kramer ).

[Mike Marron]

> (Peter Stickney) wrote:

>There's only one problem with that, Mike. Autocollimater's posts are
>coming through nntp (Net News Transport Protocol) Server
,
>and Art's are coming through nntp server mb-m10.aol.com.
>AOL, like everybody else, has their News Servers set up to handle a
>particular set of POP (Points of Presense), and, therefore, service a
>particular geographic area. The area serviced by an nntp server is
>large enough that, say, calling a POP in an adjacent locale will, by
>and large, have you posting your stuff through the same server. So
>what those message IDs are telling us is that Art and Autocollimater
>may well be in the same Time Zone, but they aren't near each other.

Perhaps, but I remain convinced that Kramer is posting anonymously
as "Autocollimator" (speaking of whom, where IS this mysterious
"Autocollimator" person anyway?) Besides the reasons I gave
previously such as tone, formatting style, attitude, anti-Bush
rhetoric, etc, it's no mere coincidence that "Autocollimator"
viciously attacked Dan Ford (e.g: "Cub Driver") but only after
Dan announced that he had killfiled Art Kramer. Nor is it coincidental
that "Autocollimator" insulted Ed Rasimus right after Ed tore Kramer
a new one because of Kramer's obnoxious "if you ain't been, you
ain't ****" attitude and used the term "curmudgeon" to describe
Kramer. When Ed said Kramer was guilty of "demeaning the whole
warrior ethic," the "Autocollimator" person subsequently responded:

"I checked that post and the "Major" never came right out and named
art at all. No wonder Art never replied. Did the Warrior Class major
lose his nerve?"



If it walks like a duck....

[Dave Kearton]

"Gordon" > wrote in message
...
> >
> >An AOLer by any other name....
> >
>
> Like me, Mike? I worked for AOL back in the 1990s and amassed a gigantic
> account of free access time, so I still use it. I happen to like AOL, for
no
> other reason than I know the interface like the backside of Britney
Spears.
>
> Gordon


Is that some sort of crack ?





Cheers

Dave Kearton

[Gordon]

Dave, I just spent Halloween night in Hillcrest. I've seen about all the crack
I can stand. Half the time, I was covering my kid's eyes; the other half, they
were covering mine.

"Doesn't anyone in this neighborhood dress as a man?"

"The chicks do."

I meant on days other than Halloween :\

yfG

[Gene Storey]

Not only that, the real Kramer died in 1988.




"Mike Marron" > wrote
> > (Autocollimator) wrote:
> (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
> >>My website just passed the 40,000 hit mark. more than I ever dreamt possible,
> >>athough Bob McKellar knew it all along. I never thought there was so much
> >>interest in that war so long gone and behind us. Thank you all for your
> >>constant repeat visits and warm, encouraging E-Mails that come on a daily
> >>basis from all over the world.. Makes this old Bombardier feel good all over.
>
> >Your stuff is the most interesting on this NG. You can't beat being there no
> >matter what. I look for your posts every time I log on. Keep 'em flying.
>
> Since it's Halloween and all, just curious Art if you will you be
> removing your "Autocollimator" mask after tonight? You're not
> fooling anyone here but your own silly self, ya' know.
>
> For the rest of the happy group assembled, here is an example of how
> "Art Kramer" formats his posts....
>
> >Subject: Re: Little friend takes big brother home.
> >From: (Autocollimator)
> >Date: 10/29/03 6:48 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
>
>
> Now here is an example of how "Autocollimator" formats his posts.....
>
>
> >Subject: Little friend takes big brother home.
> >From: (ArtKramr)
> >Date: 10/29/03 11:21 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
>
>
> In addition to the formatting styles that are *exactly* the same,
> interesting that Kramer and "Autocollimator" messages both
> originate from an AOL account as well.
>
> Below is Kramer (masquerading as "Autocollimator") on his
> 'been-there-done-that' high horse. Note the misspelled
> words -- which of course is *classic* Art Kramer....
>
> >No a surety, not just a possibility. Have you ever gotten off the
> >ground in a miliatry aircraft? I think not.
>
> Below is "Autocollimator" bashing Republicans. Kramer is also
> a known Republican-basher...
>
> >At least the Republican party will. But be fair. They really need that
> >mney for more tax cuts for the rich.
>
> "Autocollimator" (e.g: Kramer) denigrating Republicans again...
>
> >If we are in Rumsfeld's hands, God help us all.
>
> And "Autocollimator" (e.g: Kramer) bashing Republicans again.......
>
> >Thousands flew in the air war in WW II. What the hell is the big deal
> >about old man Bush???
>
> Now the examples below are REALLY pathetic. First, Kramer writes
> a short story entitled "Little friend takes big brother home" then
> "Autocollimator" gives thanks to "Art Kramer" for writing the story.
> In other words, Kramer is saying "thank you" to ->himself<- (!!!)
>
> >Autocollimator:
> >Great story. Thanks for posting it. I envy you your combat
> >experience..Keep the war stories coming.
>
> >Kramer:
> >Thanks. I'll keep 'em coming.
>
> And here's another nauseating and pathetic little lovefest that Kramer
> is publically having with HIMSELF.....
>
> >Kramer:
> >I guess that it happened many times, but I saw it only once. It
> >is a sight that never can be forgotten.
>
> >Autocollimator:
> >Your vivid memory is our gain. Thanks again.
>
> Halloween "tricks or treats" aside, you_are_one_sick_puppy, Kramer.
> Seriously! Please get help.

[Gene Storey]

Who's "we?" You got a turd in your pocket?

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> We call that cowardice.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: 40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.
>From: "Gene Storey"
>Date: 10/31/03 11:09 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <XZIob.18377$5c2.12625@okepread03>
>
>Who's "we?" You got a turd in your pocket?
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> We call that cowardice.
>
>

Those of us who flew on the war.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[MLenoch]

> Mike Marron wrote:>When Ed said Kramer was guilty of "demeaning the whole
>warrior ethic," the "Autocollimator" person subsequently responded:

That's weird. Especially when Ed gives Art credit in his recent book.

Just make me think. Does Mike have a wife , girlfriend or even a life? Any
kids on the way? You can draw your own conclusions about these questions.
VL

[Mike Marron]

> (MLenoch) wrote:
>> Mike Marron wrote:

>>When Ed said Kramer was guilty of "demeaning the whole
>>warrior ethic," the "Autocollimator" person subsequently responded:

>That's weird. Especially when Ed gives Art credit in his recent book.

And he probably deeply regrets it. Can't say as I blame him after
Kramer started hiding behind his "Autocollimator" pseudonym
just so the cowardly, pathetic, and psychotic old fart could applaud
and glorify himself under the guise of someone else. Pathetic!

>Just make me think. Does Mike have a wife , girlfriend or even a life? Any
>kids on the way? You can draw your own conclusions about these questions.

Stupid net dweebs like you and Art are the epitome of AOLdom and
the question really should be, does MLenoch have a brain? Obviously
not, since you condon chicken**** anonymous behavior on this NG by
your AOL cronies and anonymous scumbags like Kramer. By attempting
to glorify himself while bullying others under his anonymous
"Autocollimator" screen name, Kramer now has not one modicum
of respect or credibility left anymore. And anyone like YOU who
thinks otherwise is just as delusional and mentally ill as
Kramer/Autocollimator.

[Dudley Henriques]

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> > (MLenoch) wrote:
> >> Mike Marron wrote:
>
> >>When Ed said Kramer was guilty of "demeaning the whole
> >>warrior ethic," the "Autocollimator" person subsequently responded:
>
> >That's weird. Especially when Ed gives Art credit in his recent book.
>
> And he probably deeply regrets it. Can't say as I blame him after
> Kramer started hiding behind his "Autocollimator" pseudonym
> just so the cowardly, pathetic, and psychotic old fart could applaud
> and glorify himself under the guise of someone else. Pathetic!
>
> >Just make me think. Does Mike have a wife , girlfriend or even a life?
Any
> >kids on the way? You can draw your own conclusions about these
questions.
>
> Stupid net dweebs like you and Art are the epitome of AOLdom and
> the question really should be, does MLenoch have a brain? Obviously
> not, since you condon chicken**** anonymous behavior on this NG by
> your AOL cronies and anonymous scumbags like Kramer. By attempting
> to glorify himself while bullying others under his anonymous
> "Autocollimator" screen name, Kramer now has not one modicum
> of respect or credibility left anymore. And anyone like YOU who
> thinks otherwise is just as delusional and mentally ill as
> Kramer/Autocollimator.

You know Marron, I have to tell you; I've known these people you're fighting
with a real long time, and if there was anything at all phony about them, I
think I would know it by now. I'm a fairly intelligent fellow, and I'll let
you in on a few things.
Forgive me Vlado....I just HAVE to get here SOMEPLACE!!!!!
Does Vlado Lenoch have a brain? I believe he does, although my wife says he
spends entirely too much of his lunch money on avgas!! You might check out
Vlado's brain with the MIT Alumni Association, since he graduated from MIT.
I'm just a lowly science and engineering guy, but I've been told that some
pretty smart people come out of MIT.

As for Art; I've known both these people a very long time through these
newsgroups.......and FWIW.......you make a very weak case for your point of
view when you arrive on the scene with nothing but vitriolic charges and
innuendo that isn't in any shape or form backed up by fact or absolute
proof.
When you do this on Usenet, you lose the credibility of your argument in
exchange for your choice of personal attack. The result is, as you can see,
not necessarily eliciting positive responses to your charges :-)))
Add to that' you're making a basic 101 fatal error that destroys your point
completely and paints any argument you might have had as totally ridiculous
to anyone with half a brain.......or in Vlado's case, a whole brain and then
some.....(since he graduated from MIT ) ........THAT being your glittering
generalization that postulates a negative projection for anyone and everyone
who uses a specific ISP...in this case AOL.
It just doesn't wash Marron. I can't stop you from self destructing in this
manner. All I can do is stand back and watch it happen.
I can tell you this much however. From what you're doing here, I can well
see the day when Vlado, Art, Ed, and most of the rest of us around here will
be posting to each other as usual and asking ourselves what ever happened to
Mike Marron?
If I were you, I'd do some serious reconsidering on what you're doing ole'
buddy.
:-))
All the best,
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

[Mike Marron]

>"Dudley Henriques" > wrote:

[SNIP]

>As for Art; I've known both these people a very long time through these
>newsgroups.......

You know both Autocollimator and Art Kramer?

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: 40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.
>From: (MLenoch)
>Date: 11/1/03 6:25 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>> Mike Marron wrote:>When Ed said Kramer was guilty of "demeaning the whole
>>warrior ethic," the "Autocollimator" person subsequently responded:
>
>That's weird. Especially when Ed gives Art credit in his recent book.
>
>Just make me think. Does Mike have a wife , girlfriend or even a life? Any
>kids on the way? You can draw your own conclusions about these questions.
>VL


I have the highest respect for Ed and his performance in combat for the service
to our country. .And I think everyone knows that. Well almost everyone.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Mike Marron]

(ArtKramr) wrote:

>I have the highest respect for Ed and his performance in combat for the service
>to our country. .And I think everyone knows that. Well almost everyone.

Like your "Autocollimator" alter ego? Now, you may have successfully
BSed everyone else Kramer (or "Autocollimator" or whatever else
you're calling yourself these days) but you haven't BSed me.

[Gordon]

I keep waiting to see if Mike can offer direct proof of what he insists is the
truth - In my dealing with Art, he's always been honest - I can't imagine why
he'd puppet although stranger things have happened. But this isn't really
about Art or what he may/may not have done - its about how truly argumentative
you have been in RAM, Mike. I think most of the posters here have their share
of testosterone, but only one person seems to be splashing it all over the
screen. In the relatively short time you've been posting on RAM, I haven't
seen you trying to get along with, or show respect to anyone. Its ok to be
full of yourself, but eventually, you will have argued yourself out of an
audience. All of us on RAM have our faults, but it looks like your primary
input here is in the form of inflammitory remarks against people who don't know
you from Adam. A lot of us have been posting to RAM for years and we don't go
cracking on "newbies" to the group, but you seem to be going out of your way to
make a bad impression.

Gordon
...an AOLer that thinks your comments about my ISP is just plain silly - should
I look down on you for picking a car I don't particularly approve of..? ISP
insults are about as lame as it gets, Mike, and it gives the impression you are
simply looking for another reason to take a shot at passing strangers.

[Mike Marron]

(Gordon) wrote:

>I keep waiting to see if Mike can offer direct proof of what he insists is the
>truth - In my dealing with Art, he's always been honest - I can't imagine why
>he'd puppet although stranger things have happened.

Call it a gift, Gordon. Some of us are simply blessed with built-in BS
detectors and I can smell Kramer masquerading as "Autocollimator"
from a mile away. Now, I don't know you from Adam either but I do
know that Kramer has his sycophantic band of followers and supporters
around here who simply don't can't bear the thought of thier WW2
"hero" stooping so low as to post under an alias. You can attempt to
change the subject, rationalize, and counterattack all you want,
but so far nobody has offerred any proof that "Autocollimator"
is NOT Kramer.

[[email protected]]

"Dave Kearton" >
wrote:

>
>
>
>"Gordon" > wrote in message
...
>> >
>> >An AOLer by any other name....
>> >
>>
>> Like me, Mike? I worked for AOL back in the 1990s and amassed a gigantic
>> account of free access time, so I still use it. I happen to like AOL, for
>no
>> other reason than I know the interface like the backside of Britney
>Spears.
>>
>> Gordon
>
>
>Is that some sort of crack ?
>
>Cheers
>
>Dave Kearton
>

Yes butt not in the usual sense...
--

-Gord.

[[email protected]]

(Peter Stickney) wrote:

>There's only one problem with that, Mike. Autocollimater's posts are
>coming through nntp (Net News Transport Protocol) Server
,
>and Art's are coming through nntp server mb-m10.aol.com.
>AOL, like everybody else, has their News Servers set up to handle a
>particular set of POP (Points of Presense), and, therefore, service a
>particular geographic area. The area serviced by an nntp server is
>large enough that, say, calling a POP in an adjacent locale will, by
>and large, have you posting your stuff through the same server. So
>what those message IDs are telling us is that Art and Autocollimater
>may well be in the same Time Zone, but they aren't near each other.
>
>--
>Pete Stickney

Good try Pete but your last para there is inaccurate.

Those nntp's can be changed around (almost) at will. You may
notice that I use one in New Brunswick instead of my local one
here on PEI because I find it faster. I've even tried several in
Ontario (1000 miles West of here) some work, others don't.

They're not hard to change at all, so "both of these posters"
could indeed be the "same one". Also, the word Autocollimater is
a 'nonword' but 'collimater' means:

1 : a device for producing a beam of parallel rays (as of light)
or for forming an infinitely distant virtual image that can be
viewed without parallax

Possibly some system inside or related to a bombsight?

Just noodling around here...no accusations forthcoming.

--

-Gord.

[Dudley Henriques]

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...

>You can attempt to
> change the subject, rationalize, and counterattack all you want,
> but so far nobody has offerred any proof that "Autocollimator"
> is NOT Kramer.

Ah HA!!! Now we're getting somewhere......SCIENCE!!!! I can DEAL with
SCIENCE!!!!!!!:-))

Let's see....there's a parallel in here somewhere........I know, I have
it.......wait a second while my wife brings me a Jack Daniels so I can give
this my undivided attention !!!

After having my JD and making a few notations..........

When Eienstien was asked what an atom looked like, he pondered the question
a moment and answered, " Science sometimes deals with elimination to arrive
at substance and conclusion. One can't actually describe the physical
appearance of an atom to the degree that one can say without fear of
contradiction that the physical appearance of the atom is definitely NOT
that of a pussy cat!!"

So now that YOU have allied your deductive reasoning with that of Einstein,
we can begin to use your logic in reaching our conclusion about Arthur.
Since Art's physical appearance doesn't resemble an atom or a pussy cat, can
we now assume that unless he can prove he is Art, that he is in fact
Autocollimator? Or if Art is Autocollimator, can we assume that Art has a
pussy cat......Ah HA!!! A pussy cat named "atom" perhaps?
But someone has already postulated that Art and Autocollimator come from two
different location paths. Can this be? One would think that two
personalities so similar as you say would be cohabitating to say the least.
Using Occam's Razor, I'm theorizing here that the constant in this equation
is "pussycats"
I therefore postulate to you that if Art can say to this newsgroup without
qualification that he either owns or doesn't own a pussycat named "atom" and
you Mike Marron, CAN'T prove that Autocoillimator indeed does or doesn't own
a pussycat named "atom"......your theory about Art and Autocollimator is
flawed.

While you people work on this, I'm going to have another JD and see if I can
find our cat, who is suddenly missing, after looking at the computer screen
with total disgust as I was writing this, and then suddenly running off
somewhere with my wife!!

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

[Mike Marron]

>"Dudley Henriques" > wrote:
>>"Mike Marron" > wrote:

>>You can attempt to change the subject, rationalize, and counterattack
>>all you want, but so far nobody has offerred any proof that "Autocollimator"
>>is NOT Kramer.

>Ah HA!!! Now we're getting somewhere......SCIENCE!!!! I can DEAL with
>SCIENCE!!!!!!!:-))

>Let's see....there's a parallel in here somewhere........I know, I have
>it.......wait a second while my wife brings me a Jack Daniels so I can give
>this my undivided attention !!!

>After having my JD and making a few notations..........

>When Eienstien was asked what an atom looked like, he pondered the question
>a moment and answered, " Science sometimes deals with elimination to arrive
>at substance and conclusion. One can't actually describe the physical
>appearance of an atom to the degree that one can say without fear of
>contradiction that the physical appearance of the atom is definitely NOT
>that of a pussy cat!!"

>So now that YOU have allied your deductive reasoning with that of Einstein,
>we can begin to use your logic in reaching our conclusion about Arthur.
>Since Art's physical appearance doesn't resemble an atom or a pussy cat, can
>we now assume that unless he can prove he is Art, that he is in fact
>Autocollimator? Or if Art is Autocollimator, can we assume that Art has a
>pussy cat......Ah HA!!! A pussy cat named "atom" perhaps?
>But someone has already postulated that Art and Autocollimator come from two
>different location paths. Can this be? One would think that two
>personalities so similar as you say would be cohabitating to say the least.
>Using Occam's Razor, I'm theorizing here that the constant in this equation
>is "pussycats"
>I therefore postulate to you that if Art can say to this newsgroup without
>qualification that he either owns or doesn't own a pussycat named "atom" and
>you Mike Marron, CAN'T prove that Autocoillimator indeed does or doesn't own
>a pussycat named "atom"......your theory about Art and Autocollimator is
>flawed.

>While you people work on this, I'm going to have another JD and see if I can
>find our cat, who is suddenly missing, after looking at the computer screen
>with total disgust as I was writing this, and then suddenly running off
>somewhere with my wife!!

After wading thru your silly nonsense above you couldn't possibly be
as thoroughly disgusted as me (you sure that's not laced
"Autocollimator" KoolAid you're drinking instead of Jack Daniels?)


>Dudley Henriques
>International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
>Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
>For personal email, please replace
>the z's with e's.
>dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

You forgot to include your Fellowship in the Flat Earth Society.

[Dudley Henriques]

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> >"Dudley Henriques" > wrote:

> After wading thru your silly nonsense above..........

Exactly!! You're beginning to get it at last........NONESENSE!!!!!
:-)))

All the best,
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: 40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.
>From: "Dudley Henriques"
>Date: 11/1/03 11:20 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
>
>>You can attempt to
>> change the subject, rationalize, and counterattack all you want,
>> but so far nobody has offerred any proof that "Autocollimator"
>> is NOT Kramer.
>
>Ah HA!!! Now we're getting somewhere......SCIENCE!!!! I can DEAL with
>SCIENCE!!!!!!!:-))
>
>Let's see....there's a parallel in here somewhere........I know, I have
>it.......wait a second while my wife brings me a Jack Daniels so I can give
>this my undivided attention !!!
>
>After having my JD and making a few notations..........
>
>When Eienstien was asked what an atom looked like, he pondered the question
>a moment and answered, " Science sometimes deals with elimination to arrive
>at substance and conclusion. One can't actually describe the physical
>appearance of an atom to the degree that one can say without fear of
>contradiction that the physical appearance of the atom is definitely NOT
>that of a pussy cat!!"
>
>So now that YOU have allied your deductive reasoning with that of Einstein,
>we can begin to use your logic in reaching our conclusion about Arthur.
>Since Art's physical appearance doesn't resemble an atom or a pussy cat, can
>we now assume that unless he can prove he is Art, that he is in fact
>Autocollimator? Or if Art is Autocollimator, can we assume that Art has a
>pussy cat......Ah HA!!! A pussy cat named "atom" perhaps?
>But someone has already postulated that Art and Autocollimator come from two
>different location paths. Can this be? One would think that two
>personalities so similar as you say would be cohabitating to say the least.
>Using Occam's Razor, I'm theorizing here that the constant in this equation
>is "pussycats"
>I therefore postulate to you that if Art can say to this newsgroup without
>qualification that he either owns or doesn't own a pussycat named "atom" and
>you Mike Marron, CAN'T prove that Autocoillimator indeed does or doesn't own
>a pussycat named "atom"......your theory about Art and Autocollimator is
>flawed.
>
>While you people work on this, I'm going to have another JD and see if I can
>find our cat, who is suddenly missing, after looking at the computer screen
>with total disgust as I was writing this, and then suddenly running off
>somewhere with my wife!!
>
>Dudley Henriques
>International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
>Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
>For personal email, please replace
>the z's with e's.
>dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt
>
>

ROFL ! Occam is now turning over in his grave. (sigh)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Dudley Henriques]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: 40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.

> ROFL ! Occam is now turning over in his grave. (sigh)

....twas the Black Death that got him. One thing's for sure, his grave was a
"simple" one!!! :-))
DH

[Yeff]

On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 20:24:34 GMT, Dudley Henriques wrote:

> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
>>>Subject: Re: 40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.
>
>> ROFL ! Occam is now turning over in his grave. (sigh)
>
> ...twas the Black Death that got him. One thing's for sure, his grave was a
> "simple" one!!! :-))
> DH

I heard Mike used Occam's razor to skin Schrodinger's cat...

-Jeff B. (it's all a vast conspiracy)
yeff at erols dot com

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: 40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.
>From: "Dudley Henriques"
>Date: 11/1/03 12:24 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: 40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.
>
>> ROFL ! Occam is now turning over in his grave. (sigh)
>
>...twas the Black Death that got him. One thing's for sure, his grave was a
>"simple" one!!! :-))
>DH
>
>

Touche ! Ah Dud you outdo yourself. (grin)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: 40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.
>From: Yeff
>Date: 11/1/03 12:51 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 20:24:34 GMT, Dudley Henriques wrote:
>
>> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>>Subject: Re: 40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.
>>
>>> ROFL ! Occam is now turning over in his grave. (sigh)
>>
>> ...twas the Black Death that got him. One thing's for sure, his grave was a
>> "simple" one!!! :-))
>> DH
>
>I heard Mike used Occam's razor to skin Schrodinger's cat...
>
>-Jeff B. (it's all a vast conspiracy)
>yeff at erols dot com



Speaking of conspiracies, now Mike is claiming that all my friends are ganging
up on him. A bit of paranoia there ya think? (grin)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Dudley Henriques]

"Yeff" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 20:24:34 GMT, Dudley Henriques wrote:
>
> > "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>>Subject: Re: 40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.
> >
> >> ROFL ! Occam is now turning over in his grave. (sigh)
> >
> > ...twas the Black Death that got him. One thing's for sure, his grave
was a
> > "simple" one!!! :-))
> > DH
>
> I heard Mike used Occam's razor to skin Schrodinger's cat...

Ah, Schrodinger's cat!!! I KNEW there was a f*****g cat in this stupid
equation SOMEPLACE!!!!
Now, going into quantum a bit here, Mike could be right!! If we put Art AND
Autocollimator into a lead box (after all, they ARE one and the same
according to Mike ) and then we throw in a cyanide capsule, can we then
assume that Art and Autocollimator are then both dead, or do we have to
actually open the box to prove a superposition on this issue?
Or perhaps instead, we can just put Mike into the box, assume a
superposition, and then the whole lot of us can go out and have a drink
because none of us really give a **** whether Mike's dead or NOT!!! :-)))
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

[Brian Colwell]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Yeff" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 20:24:34 GMT, Dudley Henriques wrote:
> >
> > > "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >>>Subject: Re: 40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.
> > >
> > >> ROFL ! Occam is now turning over in his grave. (sigh)
> > >
> > > ...twas the Black Death that got him. One thing's for sure, his grave
> was a
> > > "simple" one!!! :-))
> > > DH
> >
> > I heard Mike used Occam's razor to skin Schrodinger's cat...
>
> Ah, Schrodinger's cat!!! I KNEW there was a f*****g cat in this stupid
> equation SOMEPLACE!!!!
> Now, going into quantum a bit here, Mike could be right!! If we put Art
AND
> Autocollimator into a lead box (after all, they ARE one and the same
> according to Mike ) and then we throw in a cyanide capsule, can we then
> assume that Art and Autocollimator are then both dead, or do we have to
> actually open the box to prove a superposition on this issue?
> Or perhaps instead, we can just put Mike into the box, assume a
> superposition, and then the whole lot of us can go out and have a drink
> because none of us really give a **** whether Mike's dead or NOT!!! :-)))
> Dudley Henriques
> International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
> Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
> For personal email, please replace
> the z's with e's.
> dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt
>
Dudley,
I will buy the first round !!!

BMC

[Dave Kearton]

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> (Gordon) wrote:
>
> >I keep waiting to see if Mike can offer direct proof of what he insists
is the
> >truth - In my dealing with Art, he's always been honest - I can't imagine
why
> >he'd puppet although stranger things have happened.
>
> Call it a gift, Gordon. Some of us are simply blessed with built-in BS
> detectors and I can smell Kramer masquerading as "Autocollimator"
> from a mile away. Now, I don't know you from Adam either but I do
> know that Kramer has his sycophantic band of followers and supporters
> around here who simply don't can't bear the thought of thier WW2
> "hero" stooping so low as to post under an alias. You can attempt to
> change the subject, rationalize, and counterattack all you want,
> but so far nobody has offerred any proof that "Autocollimator"
> is NOT Kramer.

--



Finally I can use a quote from HL Mencken that I've been hanging onto for
years ....




"The world always makes the assumption that the exposure of an error is
identical with the discovery of the truth - that error and truth are merely
opposite.


They are nothing of the sort. What the world turns to, when it has been
cured of one error, is usually another error and maybe one worse than the
first one"







Cheers

Dave Kearton

[Mike Marron]

(ArtKramr) wrote:

>Speaking of conspiracies, now Mike is claiming that all my friends are ganging
>up on him. A bit of paranoia there ya think? (grin)

Since nobody responded to your attempt at humor, guess I will.
Your note above, and lack of response to it thereof, simply proves
my point. You've been browbeaten into submission for so long now
on this NG (even by your veteran peers) that you felt the need to
create "Autocollimator" so as to shore up your cringing ego. Despite
the "devil may care" facade you attempt to portray in public, deep
down you desperately seek recognition for your WW2 bombadier
experiences. "Autocollimator" is simply nothing more than a figment
of your hallucination but the problem is that you left way too many
clues behind that point straight at YOU as "Autocollimator."

I stand firmly by my assertion that Art Kramer and "Autocollimator"
are one in the same.

[Longtailedlizard]

>>Your stuff is the most interesting on this NG. You can't beat being there no
>>matter what. I look for your posts every time I log on. Keep 'em flying.
>
>Since it's Halloween and all, just curious Art if you will you be
>removing your "Autocollimator" mask after tonight?


Mike,
If I may offer why I don't think "Art" and "Auto" are not, one and the same,
First off, I'm a regular reader but not much of a participant. I enjoy
reading the different posts, offering many different veiwpoints and opinions.
"Art" has been posting here for some years now, although I don't agree with
him at times, I enjoy reading about his life and times at war.
Many WWII veterans are departing us, its not only important for US history
but World history to hear it first hand from someone who was there. I knew many
WWII veterans, most are departed, including dad and my uncle. But like most
WWII veterans, they never talked about it, most I heard was from mom, "daddy
seen alot of bad stuff", or yes or no answers from dad and uncle themselves.
Its only "after" its to late do you hear about what they did or what
happened.
How many times I picked up the paper only to read so and so passed away, and a
"oh! wow" I did'nt know he was a paratooper, Marine, gunner aboard the Gamblier
Bay, etc, etc.
Also, these are old men, technology is sometimes daunting to them. I remember
writing down specific instructions on how to turn on the computer, do this, do
that, just so they could download e-mails with pictures of there grandchildren.
Art is one of the very few, that not only talks about it, but maintains his
own webpage.
Art is extremely pround of what he has done, and rightfully so. And anybody
that has been apart of this newsgroup, has to admit that, lets face it, if you
don't agree with Art, things seem to turn south real quick. Art is very
opinionated, pretty much, that if you have'nt flown in WWII, the soldiers,
sailors, Marines, infantrymen, gunners, submariners, cooks, supply personnel,
etc, etc, etc, aren't worthy somehow.
But anyway, no big deal, we all have faults.
So!!, to offer my proof that Art and Auto are not the same, Auto replied:

>Your stuff is the most interesting on this NG. You can't beat being there no
>>matter what. I look for your posts every time I log on. Keep 'em flying.


Mike, KEEP 'EM FLYING, is strictly and aircraft mechanics saying, no way in
God's green earth would Art ever stoop slow low as to quote the saying of a
lowlife, yellow, uneducated enlisted aircraft mechanics qoute or as Art calls
them Poogies or something like that. :)

[Jack]

in article , Mike Marron at
wrote on 2003/11/01 16:44:

> I stand firmly by my assertion that Art Kramer and "Autocollimator"
> are one in the same.

Even if they were, Art still would have way more integrity than you do.



Jack

[Mike Marron]

> (Longtailedlizard) wrote:

>Mike,
> If I may offer why I don't think "Art" and "Auto" are not, one and the same,
> First off, I'm a regular reader but not much of a participant. I enjoy
>reading the different posts, offering many different veiwpoints and opinions.
> "Art" has been posting here for some years now, although I don't agree with
>him at times, I enjoy reading about his life and times at war.
> Many WWII veterans are departing us, its not only important for US history
>but World history to hear it first hand from someone who was there. I knew many
>WWII veterans, most are departed, including dad and my uncle. But like most
>WWII veterans, they never talked about it, most I heard was from mom, "daddy
>seen alot of bad stuff", or yes or no answers from dad and uncle themselves.
> Its only "after" its to late do you hear about what they did or what
>happened.
>How many times I picked up the paper only to read so and so passed away, and a
>"oh! wow" I did'nt know he was a paratooper, Marine, gunner aboard the Gamblier
>Bay, etc, etc.
> Also, these are old men, technology is sometimes daunting to them. I remember
>writing down specific instructions on how to turn on the computer, do this, do
>that, just so they could download e-mails with pictures of there grandchildren.
> Art is one of the very few, that not only talks about it, but maintains his
>own webpage.
> Art is extremely pround of what he has done, and rightfully so. And anybody
>that has been apart of this newsgroup, has to admit that, lets face it, if you
>don't agree with Art, things seem to turn south real quick. Art is very
>opinionated, pretty much, that if you have'nt flown in WWII, the soldiers,
>sailors, Marines, infantrymen, gunners, submariners, cooks, supply personnel,
>etc, etc, etc, aren't worthy somehow.
> But anyway, no big deal, we all have faults.
> So!!, to offer my proof that Art and Auto are not the same, Auto replied:

>>Your stuff is the most interesting on this NG. You can't beat being there no
>>>matter what. I look for your posts every time I log on. Keep 'em flying.

>Mike, KEEP 'EM FLYING, is strictly and aircraft mechanics saying, no way in
>God's green earth would Art ever stoop slow low as to quote the saying of a
>lowlife, yellow, uneducated enlisted aircraft mechanics qoute or as Art calls
>them Poogies or something like that. :)

Great post Liz, much appreciated! This is the one and only RATIONAL
response I've read yet, however, perhaps we should give Kramer a bit
of credit where credit's due here. In other words, simply because he
used a mechanic's saying (e.g: "keep 'em flying") doesn't mean squat.
He may have utilized the saying just to help furthur disguise himself
precisely for the reasons you so astutely pointed out (e.g: make it
seem like "Autocollimator" is some "low life yellow, uneducated
enlisted aircraft mechanic" ain't him).

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: 40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.
>From: "Brian Colwell"
>Date: 11/1/03 1:48 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <CSVob.250778$6C4.39592@pd7tw1no>
>
>
>"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>>
>> "Yeff" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 20:24:34 GMT, Dudley Henriques wrote:
>> >
>> > > "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> > > ...
>> > >>>Subject: Re: 40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.
>> > >
>> > >> ROFL ! Occam is now turning over in his grave. (sigh)
>> > >
>> > > ...twas the Black Death that got him. One thing's for sure, his grave
>> was a
>> > > "simple" one!!! :-))
>> > > DH
>> >
>> > I heard Mike used Occam's razor to skin Schrodinger's cat...
>>
>> Ah, Schrodinger's cat!!! I KNEW there was a f*****g cat in this stupid
>> equation SOMEPLACE!!!!
>> Now, going into quantum a bit here, Mike could be right!! If we put Art
>AND
>> Autocollimator into a lead box (after all, they ARE one and the same
>> according to Mike ) and then we throw in a cyanide capsule, can we then
>> assume that Art and Autocollimator are then both dead, or do we have to
>> actually open the box to prove a superposition on this issue?
>> Or perhaps instead, we can just put Mike into the box, assume a
>> superposition, and then the whole lot of us can go out and have a drink
>> because none of us really give a **** whether Mike's dead or NOT!!! :-)))
>> Dudley Henriques
>> International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
>> Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
>> For personal email, please replace
>> the z's with e's.
>> dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt
>>
>Dudley,
> I will buy the first round !!!
>
>BMC
>

I will buy the 10th through the 25th.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Mike Marron]

>Jack > wrote:
>>Mike Marron at wrote:

>>I stand firmly by my assertion that Art Kramer and "Autocollimator"
>>are one in the same.

>Even if they were, Art still would have way more integrity than you do.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^


Telling statement there!

[Mike Marron]

(ArtKramr) wrote:
>>"Brian Colwell" wrote:
>>>"Dudley Henriques" > wrote

>>>... and then the whole lot of us can go out and have a drink
>>>because none of us really give a **** whether Mike's dead or NOT!!! :-)))

>>Dudley,
>I will buy the first round !!!

>I will buy the 10th through the 25th.

Damn, I'm good!

[Dudley Henriques]

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> (ArtKramr) wrote:
> >>"Brian Colwell" wrote:
> >>>"Dudley Henriques" > wrote
>
> >>>... and then the whole lot of us can go out and have a drink
> >>>because none of us really give a **** whether Mike's dead or NOT!!!
:-)))
>
> >>Dudley,
> >I will buy the first round !!!
>
> >I will buy the 10th through the 25th.
>
> Damn, I'm good!

No, you're good enough to be insulting, rude, and juvenile as hell, but not
nearly good enough to share a drink with. For that you need people who want
to share a bit of what you're all about; people who want to be around you a
bit longer than it takes to want to tell you off and get the hell away from
you.
No, you're not good Mike. Not by any standard I know of anyway.
I'll let you in on a little secret. If there's ANYTHING at all that people
in professional aviation, especially military aviation, covet more than
picking the people with whom they choose to drink, I don't know what the
hell it might be!!
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

[Tarver Engineering]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Yeff" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 20:24:34 GMT, Dudley Henriques wrote:
> >
> > > "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >>>Subject: Re: 40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.
> > >
> > >> ROFL ! Occam is now turning over in his grave. (sigh)
> > >
> > > ...twas the Black Death that got him. One thing's for sure, his grave
> was a
> > > "simple" one!!! :-))
> > > DH
> >
> > I heard Mike used Occam's razor to skin Schrodinger's cat...
>
> Ah, Schrodinger's cat!!! I KNEW there was a f*****g cat in this stupid
> equation SOMEPLACE!!!!
> Now, going into quantum a bit here, Mike could be right!! If we put Art
AND
> Autocollimator into a lead box (after all, they ARE one and the same
> according to Mike ) and then we throw in a cyanide capsule, can we then
> assume that Art and Autocollimator are then both dead, or do we have to
> actually open the box to prove a superposition on this issue?

Hey Dud, what is up with your buddy Peterson at Dryden?

I hear he is stinking up the place.

What happened to all those connections?

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: 40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.
>From: "Dudley Henriques"
>Date: 11/1/03 4:14 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: t>
>
>
>"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
>> (ArtKramr) wrote:
>> >>"Brian Colwell" wrote:
>> >>>"Dudley Henriques" > wrote
>>
>> >>>... and then the whole lot of us can go out and have a drink
>> >>>because none of us really give a **** whether Mike's dead or NOT!!!
>:-)))
>>
>> >>Dudley,
>> >I will buy the first round !!!
>>
>> >I will buy the 10th through the 25th.
>>
>> Damn, I'm good!
>
>No, you're good enough to be insulting, rude, and juvenile as hell, but not
>nearly good enough to share a drink with. For that you need people who want
>to share a bit of what you're all about; people who want to be around you a
>bit longer than it takes to want to tell you off and get the hell away from
>you.
>No, you're not good Mike. Not by any standard I know of anyway.
>I'll let you in on a little secret. If there's ANYTHING at all that people
>in professional aviation, especially military aviation, covet more than
>picking the people with whom they choose to drink, I don't know what the
>hell it might be!!
>Dudley Henriques
>International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
>Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
>For personal email, please replace
>the z's with e's.
>dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt
>

I'll drink to that. (grin)

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Dudley Henriques]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...

> Hey Dud, what is up with your buddy Peterson at Dryden?
>
> I hear he is stinking up the place.
>
> What happened to all those connections?

I have nothing to do with Dryden. Any "connections" I might have are in
Washington.
DH

[Peter Stickney]

In article >,
"Gord Beaman" ) writes:
> (Peter Stickney) wrote:
>
>>There's only one problem with that, Mike. Autocollimater's posts are
>>coming through nntp (Net News Transport Protocol) Server
,
>>and Art's are coming through nntp server mb-m10.aol.com.
>>AOL, like everybody else, has their News Servers set up to handle a
>>particular set of POP (Points of Presense), and, therefore, service a
>>particular geographic area. The area serviced by an nntp server is
>>large enough that, say, calling a POP in an adjacent locale will, by
>>and large, have you posting your stuff through the same server. So
>>what those message IDs are telling us is that Art and Autocollimater
>>may well be in the same Time Zone, but they aren't near each other.
>>
>>--
>>Pete Stickney
>
> Good try Pete but your last para there is inaccurate.
>
> Those nntp's can be changed around (almost) at will. You may
> notice that I use one in New Brunswick instead of my local one
> here on PEI because I find it faster. I've even tried several in
> Ontario (1000 miles West of here) some work, others don't.

I may have jumped the gun a bit in my attempt to oversimplify.
With the exception of AOL, Gord, I'd say you're absolutely correct.
(Astute header readers will know that despite my living in New
Hampshire, USA, I'm posting through a News Server in Germany.
(Adelphia's not the greatest at nntp connectivity)
However, to the best of my knowledge, AOL's servers are only open to
AOL's customers, and AOL's browser/reader software doesn't give you
the option of switching/selecting the nntp server that you're using.
Theere are some other clues, as well. The header information in
Art's, Auticollimater's, and, for that matter, Gordon's (krztalizer)
posting is incomplete, in a manner characteristic of AOL's software.

That isn't to say that it wouldn't be possible to arrange entry through
a different POP, but that's much more expensive, devious, and time
consuming that opening up a false Google Posting ID, and using that.

Mind you, there can be other ways, as well - I could make it appear
that I was posting from Mcmurdo Sound, if I wanted to bend a few
rules - but the people who are capable of that tend not to be
long-time AOL users.

>
> They're not hard to change at all, so "both of these posters"
> could indeed be the "same one". Also, the word Autocollimater is
> a 'nonword' but 'collimater' means:
>
> 1 : a device for producing a beam of parallel rays (as of light)
> or for forming an infinitely distant virtual image that can be
> viewed without parallax
>
> Possibly some system inside or related to a bombsight?

Possible, but there are a lot of other collimaters out there, as
well. I'm using a chunk of a Gamma Ray Collimater as a paperweight,
for example. (A chunk of Lead Honeycomb about 4" thick)

> Just noodling around here...no accusations forthcoming.

No need for any importance. Until we're all in the same room, our
persona is what we post, warts and all. The impressions we make color
everything we do. In my case, it matters not if Art just happens to
_be_ AC, no matter what my belief. Art may very well be a Crusty Old
*******, and some of his opinions and online mannerisms may be
abrasive as All Get Out, but I value his storytelling of his time in
the nose of a Marauder, and of life in the chaos of immediate postwar
Europe. If Joe Heller had been willing to share his typewriter, there
might have been a different movie made.

Mike, on the other hand, is trying too hard to be Hot Rock Harry,
Roger Rudder's illegitimate brother, that I've really got to question
his judgement. There are times when he seems to really know what he's
talking about, and many other times when he's the Cock of the Walk
with 100 hours under his belt. He does seem to suffer from the
Ultralight version of Short Man's Syndrome, where he's trying so
damned hard to make his ultralight the Greatest Thing since the Moller
Sky Car. If his real life persona is as twitchy and "fangs out" as
his online persona, I fully expect him to show up in the NTSB's
statistics someday, hopefully without killing anybody else. But
that's just his online persona - who knows what he (or any of us) are
in real life.

It's kind of amusing, to think of the possibilities -
John Tarver may actually be a Professor of Thermodynamics and History.
Grantland may actually be a Bantu. Bernardx might be a Rabbi. Denyav
might actually have grown up on Earth. Me, I'm James Bond and Derek
Flint, all rolled into one (and short enough to be an Astronaut,
besides) :).


--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

[Mike Marron]

(ArtKramr) wrote:
>>"Dudley Henriques" wrote:

>>I'll let you in on a little secret. If there's ANYTHING at all that people
>>in professional aviation, especially military aviation, covet more than
>>picking the people with whom they choose to drink, I don't know what the
>>hell it might be!!

Lemme let YOU in on a little secret, Dud. Like I told ya' before the
REAL military aviators I've drank with would just as soon kick your
*phony* ass as get up in the morning.

[Peter Stickney]

In article >,
Mike Marron > writes:
>> (Longtailedlizard) wrote:
>
>>Mike,
>> If I may offer why I don't think "Art" and "Auto" are not, one and the same,
>> First off, I'm a regular reader but not much of a participant. I enjoy
>>reading the different posts, offering many different veiwpoints and opinions.
>> "Art" has been posting here for some years now, although I don't agree with
>>him at times, I enjoy reading about his life and times at war.
>> Many WWII veterans are departing us, its not only important for US history
>>but World history to hear it first hand from someone who was there. I knew many
>>WWII veterans, most are departed, including dad and my uncle. But like most
>>WWII veterans, they never talked about it, most I heard was from mom, "daddy
>>seen alot of bad stuff", or yes or no answers from dad and uncle themselves.
>> Its only "after" its to late do you hear about what they did or what
>>happened.
>>How many times I picked up the paper only to read so and so passed away, and a
>>"oh! wow" I did'nt know he was a paratooper, Marine, gunner aboard the Gamblier
>>Bay, etc, etc.
>> Also, these are old men, technology is sometimes daunting to them. I remember
>>writing down specific instructions on how to turn on the computer, do this, do
>>that, just so they could download e-mails with pictures of there grandchildren.
>> Art is one of the very few, that not only talks about it, but maintains his
>>own webpage.
>> Art is extremely pround of what he has done, and rightfully so. And anybody
>>that has been apart of this newsgroup, has to admit that, lets face it, if you
>>don't agree with Art, things seem to turn south real quick. Art is very
>>opinionated, pretty much, that if you have'nt flown in WWII, the soldiers,
>>sailors, Marines, infantrymen, gunners, submariners, cooks, supply personnel,
>>etc, etc, etc, aren't worthy somehow.
>> But anyway, no big deal, we all have faults.
>> So!!, to offer my proof that Art and Auto are not the same, Auto replied:
>
>>>Your stuff is the most interesting on this NG. You can't beat being there no
>>>>matter what. I look for your posts every time I log on. Keep 'em flying.
>
>>Mike, KEEP 'EM FLYING, is strictly and aircraft mechanics saying, no way in
>>God's green earth would Art ever stoop slow low as to quote the saying of a
>>lowlife, yellow, uneducated enlisted aircraft mechanics qoute or as Art calls
>>them Poogies or something like that. :)
>
> Great post Liz, much appreciated! This is the one and only RATIONAL
> response I've read yet, however, perhaps we should give Kramer a bit
> of credit where credit's due here. In other words, simply because he
> used a mechanic's saying (e.g: "keep 'em flying") doesn't mean squat.
> He may have utilized the saying just to help furthur disguise himself
> precisely for the reasons you so astutely pointed out (e.g: make it
> seem like "Autocollimator" is some "low life yellow, uneducated
> enlisted aircraft mechanic" ain't him).

Mike - You're really getting more than a bit thin here.
Next thing you know, you'll be rattling a pair of Ball Bearings in
your hand, reliving the Cheese Incident, and proving, by Geometric
Logic, that the Messboys didn't eat the strawberries.

Are we ging to have to refer to you a "Old Yellowstain?"

Odd thread tie-in here - The Caine Mutiny Court Martial scenes had,
as one of the principal characters, a Pilot acting as a JAG Officer.
A story so twisted, it could only have been written by Art Kramer...
of Herman Wouk.
(Hmm. Maybe Art is actually Herman Wouk? We know he's not Joe Heller
- They've been seen in the same place at the same time.)

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

[Mike Marron]

(Peter Stickney) wrote:

>But that's just his online persona - who knows what he (or any of us) are
>in real life.

Exactly right. Based on your online persona, you would most definitely
would NOT be on my short list of candidates to fly an IFR approach
with OR plop an ultralight down onto a helicopter landing pad (much
less fly into combat!) Stick to posting aviation stats and figures on
RAM, Pete. Everything else is beneath ya.

[Dudley Henriques]

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> (ArtKramr) wrote:
> >>"Dudley Henriques" wrote:
>
> >>I'll let you in on a little secret. If there's ANYTHING at all that
people
> >>in professional aviation, especially military aviation, covet more than
> >>picking the people with whom they choose to drink, I don't know what the
> >>hell it might be!!
>
> Lemme let YOU in on a little secret, Dud. Like I told ya' before the
> REAL military aviators I've drank with would just as soon kick your
> *phony* ass as get up in the morning.

Well , all I can say to this is that I'm certainly glad these "military
aviators" you're talking about aren't among the hundreds of Air Force, Navy,
Marine, and Civilian Test Pilots I deal with all year long. But then again,
no one, not even you, can expect to be liked and respected by
everyone...........can they Mike? :-)))
I'll just have to settle for what little "respect" I've managed to conger up
for myself through the years if it's ok with you.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

[Mike Marron]

>"Dudley Henriques" > wrote:
>>"Mike Marron" > wrote:

>>Lemme let YOU in on a little secret, Dud. Like I told ya' before the
>>REAL military aviators I've drank with would just as soon kick your
>>*phony* ass as get up in the morning.

>Well , all I can say to this is that I'm certainly glad these "military
>aviators" you're talking about aren't among the hundreds of Air Force, Navy,
>Marine, and Civilian Test Pilots I deal with all year long.

Huh? I thought you said that you were retired? Damn, just when
you almost had me convinced that "Autocollimator" wasn't Kramer
afterall!

>But then again, no one, not even you, can expect to be liked and
>respected by everyone...........can they Mike? :-)))

Don't get me wrong, Dud. I do envy ya' your peacetime test-pilot
experience in high performance fighters and all that. It's just that
you and 99-percent of the most prolific posters on this happy group
assembled ("Autocollimator" included!) don't have the first clue
nor do you give a **** how actual combat kinda' royally ****s things
up forever thereafter.

>I'll just have to settle for what little "respect" I've managed to conger up
>for myself through the years if it's ok with you.

Fine by me, Dud. Ya' don't have to be a combat experienced fighter
pilot to gain my repect. The greatest compliment I've ever gotten was
from a self-employed ground courier whom witnessed me grease one
in at JAX just 10-minutes after the previous guy augered in killing
himself and all passengers onboard. Respect is a 2-way thing: you
respect me and I'll respect you, OK?

[Gordon]

>
>Lemme let YOU in on a little secret, Dud. Like I told ya' before the
>REAL military aviators I've drank with would just as soon kick your
>*phony* ass as get up in the morning.

Telling statement there as well, Mike. Your audience is dwindling, fast.

Gordon

[Mike Marron]

> (Gordon) wrote:
>>Mike Marron wrote:

>>Lemme let YOU in on a little secret, Dud. Like I told ya' before the
>>REAL military aviators I've drank with would just as soon kick your
>>*phony* ass as get up in the morning.

>Telling statement there as well, Mike. Your audience is dwindling, fast.

Frankly, Scarlett....

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: 40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.
>From: (Peter Stickney)
>Date: 11/1/03 4:36 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >,
> Mike Marron > writes:
>>> (Longtailedlizard) wrote:
>>
>>>Mike,
>>> If I may offer why I don't think "Art" and "Auto" are not, one and the
>same,
>>> First off, I'm a regular reader but not much of a participant. I enjoy
>>>reading the different posts, offering many different veiwpoints and
>opinions.
>>> "Art" has been posting here for some years now, although I don't agree
>with
>>>him at times, I enjoy reading about his life and times at war.
>>> Many WWII veterans are departing us, its not only important for US
>history
>>>but World history to hear it first hand from someone who was there. I knew
>many
>>>WWII veterans, most are departed, including dad and my uncle. But like most
>>>WWII veterans, they never talked about it, most I heard was from mom,
>"daddy
>>>seen alot of bad stuff", or yes or no answers from dad and uncle
>themselves.
>>> Its only "after" its to late do you hear about what they did or what
>>>happened.
>>>How many times I picked up the paper only to read so and so passed away,
>and a
>>>"oh! wow" I did'nt know he was a paratooper, Marine, gunner aboard the
>Gamblier
>>>Bay, etc, etc.
>>> Also, these are old men, technology is sometimes daunting to them. I
>remember
>>>writing down specific instructions on how to turn on the computer, do this,
>do
>>>that, just so they could download e-mails with pictures of there
>grandchildren.
>>> Art is one of the very few, that not only talks about it, but maintains
>his
>>>own webpage.
>>> Art is extremely pround of what he has done, and rightfully so. And
>anybody
>>>that has been apart of this newsgroup, has to admit that, lets face it, if
>you
>>>don't agree with Art, things seem to turn south real quick. Art is very
>>>opinionated, pretty much, that if you have'nt flown in WWII, the soldiers,
>>>sailors, Marines, infantrymen, gunners, submariners, cooks, supply
>personnel,
>>>etc, etc, etc, aren't worthy somehow.
>>> But anyway, no big deal, we all have faults.
>>> So!!, to offer my proof that Art and Auto are not the same, Auto replied:
>>
>>>>Your stuff is the most interesting on this NG. You can't beat being there
>no
>>>>>matter what. I look for your posts every time I log on. Keep 'em flying.
>>
>>>Mike, KEEP 'EM FLYING, is strictly and aircraft mechanics saying, no way in
>>>God's green earth would Art ever stoop slow low as to quote the saying of a
>>>lowlife, yellow, uneducated enlisted aircraft mechanics qoute or as Art
>calls
>>>them Poogies or something like that. :)
>>
>> Great post Liz, much appreciated! This is the one and only RATIONAL
>> response I've read yet, however, perhaps we should give Kramer a bit
>> of credit where credit's due here. In other words, simply because he
>> used a mechanic's saying (e.g: "keep 'em flying") doesn't mean squat.
>> He may have utilized the saying just to help furthur disguise himself
>> precisely for the reasons you so astutely pointed out (e.g: make it
>> seem like "Autocollimator" is some "low life yellow, uneducated
>> enlisted aircraft mechanic" ain't him).
>
>Mike - You're really getting more than a bit thin here.
>Next thing you know, you'll be rattling a pair of Ball Bearings in
>your hand, reliving the Cheese Incident, and proving, by Geometric
>Logic, that the Messboys didn't eat the strawberries.
>
>Are we ging to have to refer to you a "Old Yellowstain?"
>
>Odd thread tie-in here - The Caine Mutiny Court Martial scenes had,
>as one of the principal characters, a Pilot acting as a JAG Officer.
>A story so twisted, it could only have been written by Art Kramer...
>of Herman Wouk.
>(Hmm. Maybe Art is actually Herman Wouk? We know he's not Joe Heller
>- They've been seen in the same place at the same time.)
>
>--
>Pete Stickney

Yes we have.(grin)

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Mike Marron]

(Peter Stickney) wrote:

>Mike - You're really getting more than a bit thin here.

Er um, let's play "Where in the World is Carmen San Diego"
eg: (substitute "Autocollimator" for "Carmen San Diego"
if you wish).

[Gordon]

If Art uses a sock puppet, its his choice. If he does, I see it as an online
kink (small 'K') that would make me shake my head, and not anything close to
the behavior Mike has been displaying since he started posting here. I am not
on Art's Christmas list, but the two of us respect each other enough to not
spend outrageous amounts of time wasting bandwidth doing nothing but ****ing
each other (and regular posters) off. Art and other military posters in this
newsgroup are here generally to share memories or clean up small details that
we have direct knowledge about: ego gets into it sometimes but thats not why
we're here. I come here to learn and discuss military aviation topics and
instead, I get to read your non-military personal attacks and daily attempts to
belittle just about everyone. You wrote to Peter, saying you'd show respect to
him if he did the same. What do you want us all to do, in exchange for you
stopping your insults?

Gordon

[Peter Stickney]

In article >,
Mike Marron > writes:
(Peter Stickney) wrote:
>
>>But that's just his online persona - who knows what he (or any of us) are
>>in real life.
>
> Exactly right. Based on your online persona, you would most definitely
> would NOT be on my short list of candidates to fly an IFR approach
> with OR plop an ultralight down onto a helicopter landing pad (much
> less fly into combat!) Stick to posting aviation stats and figures on
> RAM, Pete. Everything else is beneath ya.

I don't get into Boasting Games, sport. If I were you, my posts would
be full of being conceived in a J-3 Cub, Soloing at 14, learning
mountain flying in some of the most unpredictable weather in the world
- you Floridians have absolutely no idea - looking at the Earth's
curvature from 50,000', or watching the jump-up on the Airspeed/Mach
Indicator as the shockwave formed. Or spending 4 hours above 35,000',
watching a strong Aurora Borealis play along the entire Northern
Horizon. Or the incredible greenness of North America after a year in
the Stinking Desert. Of feeling the heavy feel, but crisp reponse of the
De Havilland Vampire, or the instant response of the SGS 1-26, the
concnetration and precision needed to get the best out of an Mu-2.
Yeah, I don't fly much any more - UV at high altitude roasts your
eyes, and for some of us with the right genes, you've got screwed up
eyes for the rest of your life. I've managed to have some great
experiences, though. I've had the pleaser of being shot at and
shooting back, of flying an airplane faster than sound, of going to
exotic places to do dangerous things, and, best of all, holding my
newborn daughter in my arms.

But, you see, I'm not anything special, in that regard. nor have I
really done any great things. But I know folks who have, and I'm glad
to sit and listen to them any time.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

[Mike Marron]

(Gordon) wrote:

************************************************** ***************************************

>If Art uses a sock puppet, its his choice. If he does, I see it as an online
>kink (small 'K')

************************************************** ***************************************


Another VERY telling statement....

[redc1c4]

Gordon wrote:
>
> If Art uses a sock puppet, its his choice. If he does, I see it as an online
> kink (small 'K') that would make me shake my head, and not anything close to
> the behavior Mike has been displaying since he started posting here. I am not
> on Art's Christmas list, but the two of us respect each other enough to not
> spend outrageous amounts of time wasting bandwidth doing nothing but ****ing
> each other (and regular posters) off. Art and other military posters in this
> newsgroup are here generally to share memories or clean up small details that
> we have direct knowledge about: ego gets into it sometimes but thats not why
> we're here. I come here to learn and discuss military aviation topics and
> instead, I get to read your non-military personal attacks and daily attempts to
> belittle just about everyone. You wrote to Peter, saying you'd show respect to
> him if he did the same. What do you want us all to do, in exchange for you
> stopping your insults?
>
> Gordon

kill file the twit?

redc1c4,
just a thought..... %-)
--
A Troop - 1st Squadron
404th Lemming Armored Cavalry

"Velox et Capillatus!"

[Dudley Henriques]

See inserts please;

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> >"Dudley Henriques" > wrote:
> >>"Mike Marron" > wrote:

> Huh? I thought you said that you were retired? Damn, just when
> you almost had me convinced that "Autocollimator" wasn't Kramer
> afterall!

I am retired, and enjoying it immensely thank you. I'm also quite active in
that retirement (when my wife allows it that is :-) as a consultant to
various interests in the military fighter aviation community.
When I'm not doing that, I'm mowing the lawn and doing yard work as my
lovely bride of 37 years directs!!

> Don't get me wrong, Dud. I do envy ya' your peacetime test-pilot
> experience in high performance fighters and all that.

Why thank you Mike. That's quite kind of you, and I deeply appreciate it
believe me.
It was no big deal really; just some extensive research and development in
the early stages of energy maneuverability and fighter performance; research
testing in inertia roll coupling and departure for high performance jets;
acm and high angle of attack testing in the F14 ; you know....small stuff
like that.....stuff that keeps pilots who fly combat ALIVE in
combat.........nothing really important by YOUR standards I'm sure :-))

It's just that
> you and 99-percent of the most prolific posters on this happy group
> assembled ("Autocollimator" included!) don't have the first clue
> nor do you give a **** how actual combat kinda' royally ****s things
> up forever thereafter.

That's interesting. Can you possibly tell the group exactly how combat
f****d things up forever for YOU Mike?

> Respect is a 2-way thing: you
> respect me and I'll respect you, OK?

No Mike,I'm afraid that's incorrect. Respect isn't a two way thing. Mutual
respect is a two way thing.
God knows....if you're satisfied with the mutual respect you're generating
on this newsgroup, or even the respect you're gaining from individuals on
this newsgroup , then who am I to tell you you can do things better.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt


Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

[Mike Marron]

> redc1c4 > wrote:

>kill file the twit?

It would be my pleasure to meet a twit like YOU face to face.

>redc1c4,
>just a thought..... %-)

Anytime, anywhere, pal. [insert dumbasss emiticon here]

[Tarver Engineering]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Hey Dud, what is up with your buddy Peterson at Dryden?
> >
> > I hear he is stinking up the place.
> >
> > What happened to all those connections?
>
> I have nothing to do with Dryden. Any "connections" I might have are in
> Washington.

Oh come on Dud, I have your email saying you are Patterson's buddy,

[Mike Marron]

>"Dudley Henriques" > wrote:
>>"Mike Marron" > wrote:

>> Huh? I thought you said that you were retired? Damn, just when
>> you almost had me convinced that "Autocollimator" wasn't Kramer
>> afterall!

>I am retired, and enjoying it immensely thank you. I'm also quite active in
>that retirement (when my wife allows it that is :-) as a consultant to
>various interests in the military fighter aviation community.
>When I'm not doing that, I'm mowing the lawn and doing yard work as my
>lovely bride of 37 years directs!!

All well and good Dud, but STILL nary a word about "Autocollimator."

>>Don't get me wrong, Dud. I do envy ya' your peacetime test-pilot
>>experience in high performance fighters and all that.

>Why thank you Mike. That's quite kind of you, and I deeply appreciate it
>believe me.

Uhh, you're welcome, Dud.

>It was no big deal really;

Yep. No big deal and you "really" should have stopped right here but
noooo.....

>just some extensive research and development in the early stages of
>energy maneuverability and fighter performance; research testing in
>inertia roll coupling and departure for high performance jets;
>acm and high angle of attack testing in the F14 ; you know....small stuff
>like that.....stuff that keeps pilots who fly combat ALIVE in combat.........
>nothing really important by YOUR standards I'm sure :-))

Am I s'posed to be impressed you pompous ****?

>>It's just that you and 99-percent of the most prolific posters on this happy
>>group assembled ("Autocollimator" included!) don't have the first clue
>>nor do you give a **** how actual combat kinda' royally ****s things
>>up forever thereafter.

>That's interesting. Can you possibly tell the group exactly how combat
>f****d things up forever for YOU Mike?

Don't have the cajones to come right out and write "****ed things
up" instead of using asterisks (as if asterisks makes profinity hunky
dory?)

>>Respect is a 2-way thing: you respect me and I'll respect you, OK?

>No Mike,I'm afraid that's incorrect.

Suit yourself....



Check Six.

[Mike Marron]

(Peter Stickney) wrote:
>>Mike Marron > wrote:

>>Exactly right. Based on your online persona, you would most definitely
>>would NOT be on my short list of candidates to fly an IFR approach
>>with OR plop an ultralight down onto a helicopter landing pad (much
>>less fly into combat!) Stick to posting aviation stats and figures on
>>RAM, Pete. Everything else is beneath ya.

>I don't get into Boasting Games, sport. If I were you, my posts would
>be full of being conceived in a J-3 Cub,

Wrong. If I were conceived in a stinkin' J-3 Cub I damn sure wouldn't
brag about it.

>Soloing at 14, learning mountain flying in some of the most unpredictable
>weather in the world - you Floridians have absolutely no idea - looking at
>the Earth's curvature from 50,000', or watching the jump-up on the Airspeed/Mach
>Indicator as the shockwave formed.

Correct. We Floridians have "absolutely no idea."

>Or spending 4 hours above 35,000', watching a strong Aurora Borealis
>play along the entire Northern Horizon. Or the incredible greenness of North
>America after a year in the Stinking Desert. Of feeling the heavy feel, but crisp
>reponse of the De Havilland Vampire, or the instant response of the SGS 1-26,
>the concnetration and precision needed to get the best out of an Mu-2.

Good grief!

>Yeah, I don't fly much any more - UV at high altitude roasts your
>eyes, and for some of us with the right genes, you've got screwed up
>eyes for the rest of your life.

Just turned 43 years myself and (knock on wood!) still have 20/20
in both eyes....

>I've managed to have some great experiences, though. I've had the
>pleaser of being shot at and shooting back, of flying an airplane faster
>than sound, of going to exotic places to do dangerous things, and, best
>of all, holding my newborn daughter in my arms.

Wow!

>But, you see, I'm not anything special, in that regard. nor have I
>really done any great things. But I know folks who have, and I'm glad
>to sit and listen to them any time.

Gotta' disagree. Whether you like it or not, you're damn sure
something "special," Gord.


Doncha' just love aviation?

[Dudley Henriques]

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> >"Dudley Henriques" > wrote:
> >>"Mike Marron" > wrote:
>
> >> Huh? I thought you said that you were retired? Damn, just when
> >> you almost had me convinced that "Autocollimator" wasn't Kramer
> >> afterall!
>
> >I am retired, and enjoying it immensely thank you. I'm also quite active
in
> >that retirement (when my wife allows it that is :-) as a consultant to
> >various interests in the military fighter aviation community.
> >When I'm not doing that, I'm mowing the lawn and doing yard work as my
> >lovely bride of 37 years directs!!
>
> All well and good Dud, but STILL nary a word about "Autocollimator."
>
> >>Don't get me wrong, Dud. I do envy ya' your peacetime test-pilot
> >>experience in high performance fighters and all that.
>
> >Why thank you Mike. That's quite kind of you, and I deeply appreciate it
> >believe me.
>
> Uhh, you're welcome, Dud.
>
> >It was no big deal really;
>
> Yep. No big deal and you "really" should have stopped right here but
> noooo.....
>
> >just some extensive research and development in the early stages of
> >energy maneuverability and fighter performance; research testing in
> >inertia roll coupling and departure for high performance jets;
> >acm and high angle of attack testing in the F14 ; you know....small stuff
> >like that.....stuff that keeps pilots who fly combat ALIVE in
combat.........
> >nothing really important by YOUR standards I'm sure :-))
>
> Am I s'posed to be impressed you pompous ****?
>
> >>It's just that you and 99-percent of the most prolific posters on this
happy
> >>group assembled ("Autocollimator" included!) don't have the first clue
> >>nor do you give a **** how actual combat kinda' royally ****s things
> >>up forever thereafter.
>
> >That's interesting. Can you possibly tell the group exactly how combat
> >f****d things up forever for YOU Mike?
>
> Don't have the cajones to come right out and write "****ed things
> up" instead of using asterisks (as if asterisks makes profinity hunky
> dory?)
>
> >>Respect is a 2-way thing: you respect me and I'll respect you, OK?
>
> >No Mike,I'm afraid that's incorrect.
>
> Suit yourself....
>
>
>
> Check Six.

Best of luck to you there Mike. :-)))))
Take care,
DH

[Mike Marron]

>"Dudley Henriques" > wrote:
>>"Mike Marron" > wrote:

>>Check Six.

>Best of luck to you there Mike. :-)))))

Thanks, Dud. I get to choose the type of A/C, right? :-)))))

>Take care,

Back 'atcha.

[Dudley Henriques]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
> >
> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > > Hey Dud, what is up with your buddy Peterson at Dryden?
> > >
> > > I hear he is stinking up the place.
> > >
> > > What happened to all those connections?
> >
> > I have nothing to do with Dryden. Any "connections" I might have are in
> > Washington.
>
> Oh come on Dud, I have your email saying you are Patterson's buddy,

I don't believe I refer to people in the business as a "buddy" John. Perhaps
if you look again you will find some other phrasing or description for any
reference by me to a Mr. "Patterson".
Are you perhaps referring to either Bruce Peterson, who was a test pilot at
Dryden back in the stone ages, or perhaps Kevin Peterson; both people are
associated with Dryden. I'm assuming you mean Kevin, and if so, I don't
believe I have EVER referred to KP as a "buddy" . I'm not absolutely certain
mind you, but I'm not all that sure KP has all that many "buddies" :-)))
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

[redc1c4]

Mike Morron wrote:
>
> > redc1c4 > wrote:
>
> >kill file the twit?
>
> It would be my pleasure to meet a twit like YOU face to face.

yeah, right..... whatever. it's easy to be brave, tough, etc*, over
a text file. real life is different: you should try it.

you should also try taking your meds on a routine basis, as prescribed,
and another layer of tin foil on your hat wouldn't be amiss either.

after all, there is a full moon coming, and that'll make it easier for
the black helicopters to locate you for the Greys. it's time for your
routine checkup and anal probing, i'm guessing.
[i]
> >redc1c4,
> >just a thought..... %-)
>
> Anytime, anywhere, pal.

the local courthouse ought to do. bring your lawyer to fight the
restraining order and the commitment papers. Atascadero is nice this
time of year.

redc1c4,
(*i was going to add "witty", but thought better of it. %-)
--
A Troop - 1st Squadron
404th Lemming Armored Cavalry

"Velox et Capillatus!"

[redc1c4]

Mike Morron wrote:
>
> (Peter Stickney) wrote:
>
> >But that's just his online persona - who knows what he (or any of us) are
> >in real life.
>
> Exactly right. Based on your online persona, you would most definitely
> would NOT be on my short list of candidates to fly an IFR approach
> with OR plop an ultralight down onto a helicopter landing pad (much
> less fly into combat!) Stick to posting aviation stats and figures on
> RAM, Pete. Everything else is beneath ya.

you, OTOH, would be among my first choices to ride a pogo stick across
a minefield, so that i, and the other scouts, could cross safely.

redc1c4,
i mean REALLY, what sane person would want to fly with you? %-)
--
A Troop - 1st Squadron
404th Lemming Armored Cavalry

"Velox et Capillatus!"

[redc1c4]

Mike Morron wrote:
>
> (ArtKramr) wrote:
> >>"Dudley Henriques" wrote:
>
> >>I'll let you in on a little secret. If there's ANYTHING at all that people
> >>in professional aviation, especially military aviation, covet more than
> >>picking the people with whom they choose to drink, I don't know what the
> >>hell it might be!!
>
> Lemme let YOU in on a little secret, Dud. Like I told ya' before the
> REAL military aviators I've drank with would just as soon kick your
> *phony* ass as get up in the morning.

were you this big an ass when you drank with them, or is it a new thing?

redc1c4,
(BTW, just 'cause you drank with them doesn't mean they liked you %-)
--
A Troop - 1st Squadron
404th Lemming Armored Cavalry

"Velox et Capillatus!"

[Dudley Henriques]

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> >"Dudley Henriques" > wrote:
> >>"Mike Marron" > wrote:
>
> >>Check Six.
>
> >Best of luck to you there Mike. :-)))))
>
> Thanks, Dud. I get to choose the type of A/C, right? :-)))))

As long as I don't have to fly with you......go for it!! :-))))

DH

[Mike Marron]

> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote:
>>"Mike Marron" > wrote:

>>Check Six.

>Best of luck to you there Mike. :-)))))

>>Thanks, Dud. I get to choose the type of A/C, right? :-)))))

>As long as I don't have to fly with you......go for it!! :-))))

Perfect! Put your money where your mouth is Dud. $100...no
make that $1000 down on the table sez I can wax yer tail in
the A/C of MY choice.

$1000 bucks.

Deal, hard guy?

[Mike Marron]

>redc1c4 > wrote:

>were you this big an ass when you drank with them, or is it a new thing?

Damn I'm good!

>redc1c4,
>(BTW, just 'cause you drank with them doesn't mean they liked you %-)

I didn't have much of a choice, idiot. It's not a question of whether
or not "they" liked me or not, idiot. You simply drank, idiot.

[Gordon]

Dudley, you get to pick the location. Fly over my house - the PK is just about
perfect to end this.

v/r
Gordon

[Bob McKellar]

Since my name was dropped in Art's first post in this thread, I feel entitled to
chime in. I have waited a while to do so, reading the other posts with great
interest.

A lot of what I was going to say has already been expressed quite well by others.
Vlado and Dudley chimed in with the rest of the hand grenade squad ( very
entertaining! ) and others such as Gordon, Peter and the Lizard contributed in less
incendiary ways, with at least some attempt at an evenhanded appraisal.

Those familiar with my posting history these many years know that sometimes I stray
just a bit from a flat recitation of facts. For the purposes of this post,
however, I am restricting myself to a very low bull**** factor. ( Very difficult
for me!)

First, I want to state a few things in reference to a variety of things which have
come up.

I host and code Art's web site, but ALL the content is his. I correct typos from
the emails he sends me, but that's it. There is no money involved in any of this
for either of us. Also, Art is not really a particularly tech savvy guy.

All my contact with Art has been email, no phone calls, no face time, no faxes, and
just one snail mailed clipping. However, over several years, I have encountered
absolutely NO indication that he is not who he says he is. In addition to the
evidence available on the web site, I have encountered numerous other pieces of
evidence verifying his identity.

----------

The "Autocollimator" story:

I spent about half an hour this afternoon on Google, and emailed another "RAM
regular" to discuss the issue. I did NOT email Art himself. Autocollimator is a
real word, BTW.

In my opinion, there is a very good chance that Art either IS "Autocollimator" or
had a very direct influence in those posts. I will not detail my reasoning here,
but it involves NO "inside" information.

I really don't think it would be such a big deal if Art wanted to have a little
extra fun on the group, and created another persona to express some different
views. Let's face it, "Autocollimator" is hardly the worst offender we've seen
lately. I don't plan to spend any time worrying about it.


-------------

I don't really have anything to add to the "Good Art/Bad Art" controversy, others
have covered it quite well. Except for this post, I don't think I have ever
commented publicly on it, and I don't think I have any great insights. The
tradeoffs are obvious to any reasonable long term reader of RAM.

-------------

And now, of necessity, I must address the issue of Mr. Marron. Over the years, I
have watched many new posters earn universal derision and enmity on the group.
However, I can't recall anybody else who reached his current depths of disapproval
without benefit of outlandishly nonfactual statements. Mr. Marron is now in the
losers' league of Tarver, Mladen,.and the XXX999 kooks, sinking below the Arndt
level, without ever making a really silly claim ( by the loose standards of RAM ).

Mr. Marron has even posted valuable material at times. However, by the sheer force
of obnoxious personality, he has managed to irritate people even while making what
should have been a legitimate contribution. This happens to posters all the time,
of course ( including Art ). But Mr. Marron has raised this from an occasional
communication problem to a consistent barrage of offensive invective, untempered by
any real original contributions ( unless you want to count lyrical praise of his
"almost an airplane").

I suppose I am a bit naive, a bit of a romantic with regard to communities like
RAM. I have always felt that the raging battles we see would never happen if we
were sitting around a table with the benefit of tone of voice and facial
expressions to leaven the harsh typing of a newsgroup post. I certainly don't
think all opinions would coincide in such a venue. ( What would be the fun in
that? ) But all in all, I used to say I'd be glad to have a beer with any of the
non loon RAM regulars, regardless of how much I may disagree with them on issues.

Now, however, I have found an exception to that rule.


Bob McKellar

..

[Mike Marron]

>redc1c4 > wrote:

>you, OTOH, would be among my first choices to ride a pogo stick across
>a minefield, so that i, and the other scouts, could cross safely.

>redc1c4,
>i mean REALLY, what sane person would want to fly with you? %-)

Well said, Spoken like a true aviator. [goofy emitcon goes here]

[redc1c4]

Mike Morron wrote:
>
> >redc1c4 > wrote:
>
> >were you this big an ass when you drank with them, or is it a new thing?
>
> Damn I'm good!

actually, you suffer from delusions of adequacy. as i've heard it,
small boys laugh at you when you pee in public mens rooms, although this
doesn't happen as much since you've taken to always sitting down.....

it's also lessened your cleaning bills, not having to get the urine
stains out of your panties, according to the grafitti in the club.

> >redc1c4,
> >(BTW, just 'cause you drank with them doesn't mean they liked you %-)
>
> I didn't have much of a choice, idiot. It's not a question of whether
> or not "they" liked me or not, idiot. You simply drank, idiot.

you drank idiots? they must have worked 'cause look at you now. %-)

you should leave both the drinking & the flames to pro's. it's obvious
you lack the basic talent and necessary skills for either task.

redc1c4,
and undoubtedly the only plane you ever flew was a paper one in
grade school, one of the years you were held back a grade.
--
A Troop - 1st Squadron
404th Lemming Armored Cavalry

"Velox et Capillatus!"

[Dudley Henriques]

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> > "Dudley Henriques" > wrote:
> >>"Mike Marron" > wrote:
>
> >>Check Six.
>
> >Best of luck to you there Mike. :-)))))
>
> >>Thanks, Dud. I get to choose the type of A/C, right? :-)))))
>
> >As long as I don't have to fly with you......go for it!! :-))))
>
> Perfect! Put your money where your mouth is Dud. $100...no
> make that $1000 down on the table sez I can wax yer tail in
> the A/C of MY choice.
>
> $1000 bucks.
>
> Deal, hard guy?

I don't think so Mike. I'm not really into ACM at 30 paces with ultralights
at dawn with people challenging me on Usenet. Besides, my wife and my
government would never allow it!!! :-)))
You take care and get some rest; .....I'm going to bed now, and I suggest
you do the same. Curl up with that Teddy Bear real tight now.....and
sleep.........sleep..........that's a good boy.....
shush now........quiet.............quiet.........."good night" :-))
DH

[Ron]

>Lemme let YOU in on a little secret, Dud. Like I told ya' before the
>REAL military aviators I've drank with would just as soon kick your
>*phony* ass as get up in the morning.
>

Dudley is not a phony at all..He is the real deal, and has been on this
newsgroup for longer than I have, which is at least about 5 years or more.
Ditto for Art.


Ron
Pilot/Wildland Firefighter

[Mike Marron]

>Bob McKellar > wrote:

[blah blah]

>And now, of necessity, I must address the issue of Mr. Marron.

C'mon Bob, it's no secret that you and "Autocollimator" (e.g: Kramer)
have been in kahootz with each other from the get go.

And there's no Mr. Marron "issue" here as far as I'm concerned. Get a
life -- I'm just funnin' with y'all.

Geez. Where in the world is ol' "Autocollimator" anyway? Art???

[Brian Colwell]

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> (Peter Stickney) wrote:
> >>Mike Marron > wrote:
>
> >>Exactly right. Based on your online persona, you would most definitely
> >>would NOT be on my short list of candidates to fly an IFR approach
> >>with OR plop an ultralight down onto a helicopter landing pad (much
> >>less fly into combat!) Stick to posting aviation stats and figures on
> >>RAM, Pete. Everything else is beneath ya.
>
> >I don't get into Boasting Games, sport. If I were you, my posts would
> >be full of being conceived in a J-3 Cub,
>
> Wrong. If I were conceived in a stinkin' J-3 Cub I damn sure wouldn't
> brag about it.
>
> >Soloing at 14, learning mountain flying in some of the most unpredictable
> >weather in the world - you Floridians have absolutely no idea - looking
at
> >the Earth's curvature from 50,000', or watching the jump-up on the
Airspeed/Mach
> >Indicator as the shockwave formed.
>
> Correct. We Floridians have "absolutely no idea."
>
> >Or spending 4 hours above 35,000', watching a strong Aurora Borealis
> >play along the entire Northern Horizon. Or the incredible greenness of
North
> >America after a year in the Stinking Desert. Of feeling the heavy feel,
but crisp
> >reponse of the De Havilland Vampire, or the instant response of the SGS
1-26,
> >the concnetration and precision needed to get the best out of an Mu-2.
>
> Good grief!
>
> >Yeah, I don't fly much any more - UV at high altitude roasts your
> >eyes, and for some of us with the right genes, you've got screwed up
> >eyes for the rest of your life.
>
> Just turned 43 years myself and (knock on wood!) still have 20/20
> in both eyes....
>
> >I've managed to have some great experiences, though. I've had the
> >pleaser of being shot at and shooting back, of flying an airplane faster
> >than sound, of going to exotic places to do dangerous things, and, best
> >of all, holding my newborn daughter in my arms.
>
> Wow!
>
> >But, you see, I'm not anything special, in that regard. nor have I
> >really done any great things. But I know folks who have, and I'm glad
> >to sit and listen to them any time.
>
> Gotta' disagree. Whether you like it or not, you're damn sure
> something "special," Gord.
>
>
> Doncha' just love aviation?

20/20 sounds more like your intelligence quota !!

BMC

[Dudley Henriques]

"Bob McKellar" > wrote in message
...
> Since my name was dropped in Art's first post in this thread, I feel
entitled to
> chime in. I have waited a while to do so, reading the other posts with
great
> interest.
>
> A lot of what I was going to say has already been expressed quite well by
others.
> Vlado and Dudley chimed in with the rest of the hand grenade squad ( very
> entertaining! ) and others such as Gordon, Peter and the Lizard
contributed in less
> incendiary ways, with at least some attempt at an evenhanded appraisal.
>
> Those familiar with my posting history these many years know that
sometimes I stray
> just a bit from a flat recitation of facts. For the purposes of this
post,
> however, I am restricting myself to a very low bull**** factor. ( Very
difficult
> for me!)
>
> First, I want to state a few things in reference to a variety of things
which have
> come up.
>
> I host and code Art's web site, but ALL the content is his. I correct
typos from
> the emails he sends me, but that's it. There is no money involved in any
of this
> for either of us. Also, Art is not really a particularly tech savvy guy.
>
> All my contact with Art has been email, no phone calls, no face time, no
faxes, and
> just one snail mailed clipping. However, over several years, I have
encountered
> absolutely NO indication that he is not who he says he is. In addition to
the
> evidence available on the web site, I have encountered numerous other
pieces of
> evidence verifying his identity.
>
> ----------
>
> The "Autocollimator" story:
>
> I spent about half an hour this afternoon on Google, and emailed another
"RAM
> regular" to discuss the issue. I did NOT email Art himself.
Autocollimator is a
> real word, BTW.
>
> In my opinion, there is a very good chance that Art either IS
"Autocollimator" or
> had a very direct influence in those posts. I will not detail my
reasoning here,
> but it involves NO "inside" information.
>
> I really don't think it would be such a big deal if Art wanted to have a
little
> extra fun on the group, and created another persona to express some
different
> views. Let's face it, "Autocollimator" is hardly the worst offender
we've seen
> lately. I don't plan to spend any time worrying about it.
>
>
> -------------
>
> I don't really have anything to add to the "Good Art/Bad Art" controversy,
others
> have covered it quite well. Except for this post, I don't think I have
ever
> commented publicly on it, and I don't think I have any great insights.
The
> tradeoffs are obvious to any reasonable long term reader of RAM.
>
> -------------
>
> And now, of necessity, I must address the issue of Mr. Marron. Over the
years, I
> have watched many new posters earn universal derision and enmity on the
group.
> However, I can't recall anybody else who reached his current depths of
disapproval
> without benefit of outlandishly nonfactual statements. Mr. Marron is now
in the
> losers' league of Tarver, Mladen,.and the XXX999 kooks, sinking below the
Arndt
> level, without ever making a really silly claim ( by the loose standards
of RAM ).
>
> Mr. Marron has even posted valuable material at times. However, by the
sheer force
> of obnoxious personality, he has managed to irritate people even while
making what
> should have been a legitimate contribution. This happens to posters all
the time,
> of course ( including Art ). But Mr. Marron has raised this from an
occasional
> communication problem to a consistent barrage of offensive invective,
untempered by
> any real original contributions ( unless you want to count lyrical praise
of his
> "almost an airplane").
>
> I suppose I am a bit naive, a bit of a romantic with regard to communities
like
> RAM. I have always felt that the raging battles we see would never happen
if we
> were sitting around a table with the benefit of tone of voice and facial
> expressions to leaven the harsh typing of a newsgroup post. I certainly
don't
> think all opinions would coincide in such a venue. ( What would be the
fun in
> that? ) But all in all, I used to say I'd be glad to have a beer with any
of the
> non loon RAM regulars, regardless of how much I may disagree with them on
issues.
>
> Now, however, I have found an exception to that rule.
>
>
> Bob McKellar

This is an excellent post Bob, and some astute observation as well. I think
you have summed up basically what many of us are feeling and just didn't
have the time or the inclination to post ourselves.
For myself personally, you will notice that I didn't actually address the
issue of "Autocollimator" at all in my responses. There is a reason for
this. Like you, I see this as a non issue, and if Art has chosen a pseudonym
persona to hawk his wares; that's his business. It's the completely
unnecessary vitriolic attacks by Mr. Marron I find objectionable, and my
posting to this thread verifies that in some detail I believe. I believe
Marron's problems go much deeper than Art. That however is not my concern. I
do get concerned however when people like Vlado Lenoch are attacked in the
posting manner of Mr. Marron. Now Vlado can speak for himself I'm sure, but
I personally found Marron's remarks to Vlado so repugnant that I inserted a
reply at that point.
People like Marron will come and go on a newsgroup like this one. It's the
natural way of things on Usenet. It's an unfortunate fact that some people
either enjoy the unpleasant responses they generate on Usenet...like Tarver,
or simply bring their inner hostilities to the group. I believe this is the
case with Marron. It seems that the more actual experience his adversary
has, the more he attacks that adversary. It's like he has to constantly
prove himself to himself. God knows, I'm not a psychologist. It's not my
field of expertise. I've tried everything I can think of to bring Marron
around and change his attitude. I thought he might have something useful to
add to the group. Not many of us have much experience with ultralights.
They're the future for General Aviation at least.......but it's useless. The
more he posts, the more I'm convinced he's a genuine case of hostility and
arrested development........challenging me to an aerial dual is just one
example of this immaturity. I personally wouldn't go near an airplane with
someone like Marron.
It's a shame really. As I said, people come and they go on Usenet. You get
some bad and you get some good. That's the natural way of things on Usenet.
Hell, I've been posting here for over five years almost daily. If I dropped
dead tonight, my Usenet legacy would most likely take one of two forms.
First, and most probable of the two possible scenarios; I'd pass completely
unnoticed into Usenet oblivion, people filling in where I used to be without
a thought about what happened to me. On the other hand, perhaps somewhere
down the line, someone would innocently ask, "Where's Dudley gone?" The
thread generated (if any at all)would be a rather short mixture of those who
liked me and those who didn't, each adding their own little "tidbit" to mark
my absence; none actually knowing I was dead. Then, just like the water in a
pond rushing back in to fill the hole where the rock was thrown in, the
thread would disappear, and I'd never be mentioned again. Life goes on with
Usenet. :-)
Strange isn't it though....how many of us can get to know each other so well
over years of "talking" to each other...then just pass on quietly one day
without a trace. Usenet is kind of sad that way.
Oh well, as I said, life goes on!! :-)))
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

[John Keeney]

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
>
> I stand firmly by my assertion that Art Kramer and "Autocollimator"
> are one in the same.

OK, let's see where that gets us.

Have you convinced anybody else?
Doesn't look like it.

Have you gained prestige or cost Art/Auto prestige?
Doesn't look like it. In fact it appears you may be losing
ground with repeated repetition of the claim.

Have you gained notoriety?
Well, some, of the nature a troll seeks. Are you trolling?

So, may I ask, what is the purpose of carrying this line forward?

[redc1c4]

Brian Colwell wrote:
>
> "Mike Marron" > wrote in message
> ...
> > (Peter Stickney) wrote:
> > >>Mike Marron > wrote:
> >
> > >>Exactly right. Based on your online persona, you would most definitely
> > >>would NOT be on my short list of candidates to fly an IFR approach
> > >>with OR plop an ultralight down onto a helicopter landing pad (much
> > >>less fly into combat!) Stick to posting aviation stats and figures on
> > >>RAM, Pete. Everything else is beneath ya.
> >
> > >I don't get into Boasting Games, sport. If I were you, my posts would
> > >be full of being conceived in a J-3 Cub,
> >
> > Wrong. If I were conceived in a stinkin' J-3 Cub I damn sure wouldn't
> > brag about it.
> >
> > >Soloing at 14, learning mountain flying in some of the most unpredictable
> > >weather in the world - you Floridians have absolutely no idea - looking
> at
> > >the Earth's curvature from 50,000', or watching the jump-up on the
> Airspeed/Mach
> > >Indicator as the shockwave formed.
> >
> > Correct. We Floridians have "absolutely no idea."
> >
> > >Or spending 4 hours above 35,000', watching a strong Aurora Borealis
> > >play along the entire Northern Horizon. Or the incredible greenness of
> North
> > >America after a year in the Stinking Desert. Of feeling the heavy feel,
> but crisp
> > >reponse of the De Havilland Vampire, or the instant response of the SGS
> 1-26,
> > >the concnetration and precision needed to get the best out of an Mu-2.
> >
> > Good grief!
> >
> > >Yeah, I don't fly much any more - UV at high altitude roasts your
> > >eyes, and for some of us with the right genes, you've got screwed up
> > >eyes for the rest of your life.
> >
> > Just turned 43 years myself and (knock on wood!) still have 20/20
> > in both eyes....
> >
> > >I've managed to have some great experiences, though. I've had the
> > >pleaser of being shot at and shooting back, of flying an airplane faster
> > >than sound, of going to exotic places to do dangerous things, and, best
> > >of all, holding my newborn daughter in my arms.
> >
> > Wow!
> >
> > >But, you see, I'm not anything special, in that regard. nor have I
> > >really done any great things. But I know folks who have, and I'm glad
> > >to sit and listen to them any time.
> >
> > Gotta' disagree. Whether you like it or not, you're damn sure
> > something "special," Gord.
> >
> >
> > Doncha' just love aviation?
>
> 20/20 sounds more like your intelligence quota !!
>
> BMC

and cubed, at that.....

redc1c4,
(after being viewed through the Hubbell telescope, of course. %-)
--
A Troop - 1st Squadron
404th Lemming Armored Cavalry

"Velox et Capillatus!"

[Regnirps]

Mike Marron wrote:

<<Call it a gift, Gordon. Some of us are simply blessed with built-in BS
detectors and I can smell Kramer masquerading as "Autocollimator"
from a mile away. Now, I don't know you from Adam either but I do
know that Kramer has his sycophantic band of followers and supporters
around here who simply don't can't bear the thought of thier WW2
"hero" stooping so low as to post under an alias. >>

Who are you and why the hell do you care?

If you are going to call people cowards on RAM you might at least have the
curtesey to include your address!

-- Charlie Springer

[Regnirps]

Mike Marron wrote:
<<
>just some extensive research and development in the early stages of
>energy maneuverability and fighter performance; research testing in
>inertia roll coupling and departure for high performance jets;
>acm and high angle of attack testing in the F14 ; you know....small stuff
>like that.....stuff that keeps pilots who fly combat ALIVE in combat.........
>nothing really important by YOUR standards I'm sure :-))

Am I s'posed to be impressed you pompous ****? >>

Do you mind if we send all these posts to your employer? Do you carry
passengers? Does you company have psych evaluations? Please tell us what
carrier you are with so we can keep clear!

-- Charlie Springer

[John Keeney]

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> Great post Liz, much appreciated! This is the one and only RATIONAL
> response I've read yet, however, perhaps we should give Kramer a bit
> of credit where credit's due here. In other words, simply because he
> used a mechanic's saying (e.g: "keep 'em flying") doesn't mean squat.
> He may have utilized the saying just to help furthur disguise himself
> precisely for the reasons you so astutely pointed out (e.g: make it
> seem like "Autocollimator" is some "low life yellow, uneducated
> enlisted aircraft mechanic" ain't him).

Umm, Mike, as far as I know, Art has never been accused of subtlety.

[redc1c4]

Mike Morron wrote:

(snipage occurs)

> And there's no Mr. Marron "issue" here as far as I'm concerned. Get a
> life -- I'm just funnin' with y'all.

if you were an "issue", you'd sit on the supply room shelf until DLA
sent a TWIX ordering your disposition via the incinerator @ Anniston.

i mean, *REALLY*, do you think anyone would sign for you? you're just
another TA, siting there in all your blue and white glory, obsolete
by any standard, on the day of your (stan) fielding.

redc1c4
you're funny like a 2LT is funny with a map and compass.
(during peacetime, anyway........... %-)
--
A Troop - 1st Squadron
404th Lemming Armored Cavalry

"Velox et Capillatus!"

[Chuck]

Mike Marron wrote of November 1:

"but so far nobody has offerred any proof that "Autocollimator" is NOT
Kramer."

Hmmmmmmm - aside from the obvious "When did you stop beating your wife"
I do notice a word spelled incorrectly, which on earlier "Mike Marron"
posts, proved that Kramer was Autocollimator!!!!

Art, I discovered you website long before I discovered RAM. Great site.

Chuck





HEAVY ATTACK COMPOSITE (VC-5,6,7,8,9) WEBSITE
http://community.webtv.net/charles379/USNComposite

FAIRECONRON ONE AND TWO (VQ-1/2) CASUALTIES
http://www.anzwers.org/free/navyscpo4/Chuck_Huber_AirCrew.html

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: 40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.
>From: Mike Marron
>Date: 11/1/03 4:34 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id:

>Lemme let YOU in on a little secret, Dud. Like I told ya' before the
>REAL military aviators I've drank with would just as soon kick your
>*phony* ass as get up in the morning.
>

You you have never flown anything other than a scrap of junk call Dudley
"phony"? You are a truly a pile of dismal crap. He is an experienced military
flier. And you are zero. Too cowardly to fly with the military. You probably
tried and they kicked you out on your pathetic ass.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: 40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.
>From: Mike Marron
>Date: 11/1/03 7:50 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id:

>"Dudley Henriques" > wrote:
>>>"Mike Marron"

>just some extensive research and development in the early stages of
>>energy maneuverability and fighter performance; research testing in
>>inertia roll coupling and departure for high performance jets;
>>acm and high angle of attack

>esting in the F14 ; you know....small stuff
>>like that.....stuff that keeps pilots who fly combat ALIVE in
>combat.........
>>nothing really important by YOUR standards I'm sure :-))

>Am I s'posed to be impressed you pompous ****?

You are a disgusting piece of ****.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: 40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.
>From: Mike Marron
>Date: 11/1/03 8:48 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote:
>>>"Mike Marron" > wrote:
>
>>>Check Six.
>
>>Best of luck to you there Mike. :-)))))
>
>>>Thanks, Dud. I get to choose the type of A/C, right? :-)))))
>
>>As long as I don't have to fly with you......go for it!! :-))))
>
>Perfect! Put your money where your mouth is Dud. $100...no
>make that $1000 down on the table sez I can wax yer tail in
>the A/C of MY choice.
>
>$1000 bucks.
>
>Deal, hard guy?


Morron you are a pathetic joke.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: 40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.
>From: "John Keeney"
>Date: 11/1/03 10:42 PM Pacific Standard Time

>Umm, Mike, as far as I know, Art has never been accused of subtlety.

Just a damned minute here. I am the damnest most subtle guy you will ever meet
in all your life and don't you ever forget it. (grin)

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: 40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.
>From: (Chuck)
>Date: 11/2/03 2:42 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id:

>Art, I discovered you website long before I discovered RAM. Great site.
>
>Chuck

Glad you enjoyed it. Stay tuned. More to come. (grin)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Tarver Engineering]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
ink.net...
<snip>

> > Oh come on Dud, I have your email saying you are Patterson's buddy,
>
> I don't believe I refer to people in the business as a "buddy" John.
Perhaps
> if you look again you will find some other phrasing or description for any
> reference by me to a Mr. "Patterson".

I think you were quite clear about your friend Patterson and you telephone
conversations with him. It looks like Patterson has screwed the pooch now.

> Are you perhaps referring to either Bruce Peterson, who was a test pilot
at
> Dryden back in the stone ages, or perhaps Kevin Peterson; both people are
> associated with Dryden. I'm assuming you mean Kevin, and if so, I don't
> believe I have EVER referred to KP as a "buddy" . I'm not absolutely
certain
> mind you, but I'm not all that sure KP has all that many "buddies" :-)))

You are lying, Dudley, but it is very likely that that the Director at
Dryden has no buddies.

[Ed Rasimus]

To Art:

Congratulations on a very successful site that has given a lot of
folks a lot of insight regarding what flying and fighting in the "big
one" was about.

To Art, Dudley, Vlad, Mike, Gordon, and the others who have gone far
afield to the detriment of meaningful dialogue in RAM:

Give it a rest guys. Take a deep breath, swallow some pride and
refrain from responding. We'll all be better for it.

[Mike Beede]

In article >, Mike Marron > wrote:

> Perhaps, but I remain convinced that Kramer is posting anonymously
> as "Autocollimator" (speaking of whom, where IS this mysterious
> "Autocollimator" person anyway?)

Mike,

Here's an exerpt from your earlier post:

> For the rest of the happy group assembled, here is an example of how
> "Art Kramer" formats his posts....
>
> >Subject: Re: Little friend takes big brother home.
> >From: (Autocollimator)
> >Date: 10/29/03 6:48 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
>
>
> Now here is an example of how "Autocollimator" formats his posts.....
>
>
> >Subject: Little friend takes big brother home.
> >From: (ArtKramr)
> >Date: 10/29/03 11:21 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >

Your Big Revelation seems to have a little boo boo--namely, you mixed
up which was which. The fact that two people have some similarities in
their posting styles and happen to use the same software strikes me as
less than conclusive. You ask "who is this 'Autocollimator' person anyway?"
Maybe it's you. It would be an interesting technique to allow you to
put words in the mouth of someone that you didn't like. There's nearly
the same amount of evidence, just with a different spin. [Note: insert
your favorite smiley here.]

Anyway, who cares? I always enjoy Art's postings, and if I do or don't
agree with his political statements, I can just separate them from
his stories and other views.

Regards,

Mike

[MLenoch]

> Ed Rasimus wrote:>Give it a rest guys. Take a deep breath, swallow some pride
and
>refrain from responding. We'll all be better for it.
>

Best words I've heard all day! Will do.
Thx, Ed.
VL

[[email protected]]

Mike Marron > wrote:

>>Jack > wrote:
>>>Mike Marron at wrote:
>
>>>I stand firmly by my assertion that Art Kramer and "Autocollimator"
>>>are one in the same.
>
>>Even if they were, Art still would have way more integrity than you do.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^
>
>
>Telling statement there!
>
>

Yep...sounds like proof positive to me marion, I'd run with
that...
--

-Gord.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: 40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.
>From: Ed Rasimus
>Date: 11/2/03 8:51 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>To Art:
>
>Congratulations on a very successful site that has given a lot of
>folks a lot of insight regarding what flying and fighting in the "big
>one" was about.
>
>To Art, Dudley, Vlad, Mike, Gordon, and the others who have gone far
>afield to the detriment of meaningful dialogue in RAM:
>
>Give it a rest guys. Take a deep breath, swallow some pride and
>refrain from responding. We'll all be better for it.
>
>

Good idea Ed. why didn't I think of that?. (sigh)

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[[email protected]]

(Peter Stickney) wrote:

>However, to the best of my knowledge, AOL's servers are only open to
>AOL's customers, and AOL's browser/reader software doesn't give you
>the option of switching/selecting the nntp server that you're using.
>Theere are some other clues, as well. The header information in
>Art's, Auticollimater's, and, for that matter, Gordon's (krztalizer)
>posting is incomplete, in a manner characteristic of AOL's software.
>

See?...see?...there's ALWAYS exceptions isn't there?. My momma
done tole me not to do that too :)

Thank *God* I put that "(almost)" in there!...anyhoo I learned
something, thanks sir. I agree with your take WRT the
personalities floating around here, I already locked horns with
him about the AoA and the 'variable' Angle of Incidence thing.
--

-Gord.

[Mary Shafer]

On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 03:15:52 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> wrote:

> Why thank you Mike. That's quite kind of you, and I deeply appreciate it
> believe me.
> It was no big deal really; just some extensive research and development in
> the early stages of energy maneuverability and fighter performance; research
> testing in inertia roll coupling and departure for high performance jets;
> acm and high angle of attack testing in the F14 ; you know....small stuff
> like that.....stuff that keeps pilots who fly combat ALIVE in
> combat.........nothing really important by YOUR standards I'm sure :-))

For which Dudley is quite well-known and well-regarded in the test
community, I'll add on account of him being too modest to do so.

We were flying tricycle Rogallo wings in the '60s, so I don't see
what's so special about them. It certainly wasn't a big deal, like
flying the X-15 or lifting bodies, although the same guy flew all
three.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

[Mary Shafer]

On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 04:28:55 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> wrote:

> Are you perhaps referring to either Bruce Peterson, who was a test pilot at
> Dryden back in the stone ages, or perhaps Kevin Peterson; both people are
> associated with Dryden. I'm assuming you mean Kevin, and if so, I don't
> believe I have EVER referred to KP as a "buddy" . I'm not absolutely certain
> mind you, but I'm not all that sure KP has all that many "buddies" :-)))

Bruce was better known as "The Six Dollar Man", you know. Kevin's my
and Ken's buddy; he was Ken's co-op one term, way back when. He's
very likeable and has a lot of buddies.

It's "Petersen", by the way, not "Peterson" or "Patterson".

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

[Mary Shafer]

On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 03:08:24 GMT, redc1c4
> wrote:

> kill file the twit?

BTDT, couldn't find a T shirt.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

[[email protected]]

Bob McKellar > wrote:

>Now, however, I have found an exception to that rule.
>
>
>Bob McKellar
>
>.
>
>
Well done Bob...a keeper.
--

-Gord.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Mary Shafer" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 04:28:55 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> > wrote:
>
> > Are you perhaps referring to either Bruce Peterson, who was a test pilot
at
> > Dryden back in the stone ages, or perhaps Kevin Peterson; both people
are
> > associated with Dryden. I'm assuming you mean Kevin, and if so, I don't
> > believe I have EVER referred to KP as a "buddy" . I'm not absolutely
certain
> > mind you, but I'm not all that sure KP has all that many "buddies" :-)))
>
> Bruce was better known as "The Six Dollar Man", you know. Kevin's my
> and Ken's buddy; he was Ken's co-op one term, way back when. He's
> very likeable and has a lot of buddies.
>
> It's "Petersen", by the way, not "Peterson" or "Patterson".

Honey, Dudley has a copy of his emails to me. He doesn't need any help
understanding how it goes.

Marta is back from exile and that is a good thing.

[BackToNormal]

Peter Stickney > wrote:

> I don't get into Boasting Games, sport. If I were you, my posts would
> be full of being conceived in a J-3 Cub, Soloing at 14, learning
> mountain flying in some of the most unpredictable weather in the world
> - you Floridians have absolutely no idea - looking at the Earth's
> curvature from 50,000', or watching the jump-up on the Airspeed/Mach
> Indicator as the shockwave formed. Or spending 4 hours above 35,000',
> watching a strong Aurora Borealis play along the entire Northern
> Horizon. Or the incredible greenness of North America after a year in
> the Stinking Desert. Of feeling the heavy feel, but crisp reponse of the
> De Havilland Vampire, or the instant response of the SGS 1-26, the
> concnetration and precision needed to get the best out of an Mu-2.
> Yeah, I don't fly much any more - UV at high altitude roasts your
> eyes, and for some of us with the right genes, you've got screwed up
> eyes for the rest of your life. I've managed to have some great
> experiences, though. I've had the pleaser of being shot at and
> shooting back, of flying an airplane faster than sound, of going to
> exotic places to do dangerous things, and, best of all, holding my
> newborn daughter in my arms.
>
> But, you see, I'm not anything special, in that regard. nor have I
> really done any great things. But I know folks who have, and I'm glad
> to sit and listen to them any time.

Great post which promptss me to raise a point I have been thinking about
for some little time. Among RAM regulars there is obviously a wealth of
valuable aviation knowledge, but it seems to be overshadowed by
bickering.

I'd like to suggest that RAM regulars donate some of their knowledge to
wikipedia, the free online encyclopedia which expands rapidly every day.
Some of you may already, but I'd guess most don't.

Wikipedia is being compiled by thousands of people worldwide in several
languages, and anyone can post information or edit existing information.
However, wikipedia is about facts, and bias/points of
view/flames/vandalism etc are taboo and quickly edited out by sysops.
Deliberate vandals are soon blocked from contributing (I don't know
how).

I'm positive that contributions by RAM regulars would make wikipedia a
much richer reference tool. It's at http://en.wikipedia.org/ or if you'd
like to go direct to the mil aviation section that's at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Aviation. You will see pages that
contain very little, or glaring ommissions. That's because wikipedia
compilation is ongoing and some categories await the submission of
factual information from people like RAM regulars.

I'd strongly suggest that anyone thinking of contributing/editing should
first read style etc guidelines and experiment on the site. I think RAM
would be a very good place for wikipedia military contributors/editors
to discuss controversial info before agreeing what is factual and could
be posted to wikipedia. And if some of the hostility here could be
replaced by thoughtful discussion to determine those facts, it would be
a more valuable use of time. I asked a question here a few days ago, and
based on a response from Bill Silvey (and others), was able to amend
wikipedia with factual information which removed an inference of
uniqueness attributed to the B_2.

Cheers

ronh

[Dudley Henriques]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> To Art:
>
> Congratulations on a very successful site that has given a lot of
> folks a lot of insight regarding what flying and fighting in the "big
> one" was about.
>
> To Art, Dudley, Vlad, Mike, Gordon, and the others who have gone far
> afield to the detriment of meaningful dialogue in RAM:
>
> Give it a rest guys. Take a deep breath, swallow some pride and
> refrain from responding. We'll all be better for it.

My wife has "consulted" with me on this, and she has told me in no uncertain
terms that Ed's right and I should shut up along with the rest of you. Her
only caveat (wives ALWAYS have a caveat) is that she could have told all of
us this before Ed did, which confirms everything is normal around HERE
anyway. :-)
The only remaining question I would have to close this over worked issue
would simply be to comment that I hope Tex Houston is in good health, as I
can't imagine how RAM got through this entire thread without him giving us
all holy hell:-))
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: 40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.
>From: "Dudley Henriques"
>Date: 11/2/03 1:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id:

>The only remaining question I would have to close this over worked issue
>would simply be to comment that I hope Tex Houston is in good health, as I
>can't imagine how RAM got through this entire thread without him giving us
>all holy hell:-))

Tex, being a flier is above it all. (grin duck and run) Now we even for that
Ocaams Razor and very simple casket gag you hit me with.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Dudley Henriques]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: 40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.
> >From: "Dudley Henriques"
> >Date: 11/2/03 1:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id:
>
> >The only remaining question I would have to close this over worked issue
> >would simply be to comment that I hope Tex Houston is in good health, as
I
> >can't imagine how RAM got through this entire thread without him giving
us
> >all holy hell:-))
>
> Tex, being a flier is above it all. (grin duck and run) Now we even for
that
> Ocaams Razor and very simple casket gag you hit me with.

Or you could say that as a flier he has his "ups" and "downs" :-))))

Dudley

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: 40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.
>From: "Dudley Henriques"
>Date: 11/2/03 3:13 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: et>
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: 40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.
>> >From: "Dudley Henriques"
>> >Date: 11/2/03 1:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id:
>>
>> >The only remaining question I would have to close this over worked issue
>> >would simply be to comment that I hope Tex Houston is in good health, as
>I
>> >can't imagine how RAM got through this entire thread without him giving
>us
>> >all holy hell:-))
>>
>> Tex, being a flier is above it all. (grin duck and run) Now we even for
>that
>> Ocaams Razor and very simple casket gag you hit me with.
>
>Or you could say that as a flier he has his "ups" and "downs" :-))))
>
>Dudley
>
>


Aaaargh ! I'll get you for this (s)
..
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Regnirps]

Mary Shafer wrote:

<<We were flying tricycle Rogallo wings in the '60s, so I don't see
what's so special about them. It certainly wasn't a big deal, like
flying the X-15 or lifting bodies, although the same guy flew all
three.
>>

Hey Mary. I built a Rogallo "Bat Glider" of bamboo and black plastic (with a
lot of strapping tape) in about '68. Ran off a hill side and smashed into a
tree :-)

I still have a picture of the "debris field" somewhere. There was a reporter
near by who took a shot and ran a piece in the paper about "Man with Wings".
What a hoot. Does this make me a hang gliding pioneer or do I need controlled
flight? Actually it was controlled in the sense it controlled me by simply
turning left no matter what!

-- Charlie Springer

[MLenoch]

> wrote:>Hey Mary. I built a Rogallo "Bat Glider" of bamboo
and black plastic (with a
>lot of strapping tape) in about '68. Ran off a hill side and smashed into a
>tree :-)
>

We did the same thing in '69, but we used duct-tape.........we were funded a
bit more (my buddy had a job)!!
VL

[Mike Marron]

>Ed Rasimus > wrote:

>To Art:

>Congratulations on a very successful site that has given a lot of
>folks a lot of insight regarding what flying and fighting in the "big
>one" was about.

I agree, Ed. I've visited Art's website several times, read most of
his short stories and viewed the pictures. I have no problem
whatsoever with his fine website. It was his bizarre and gratuitous
posting and flaming others ANONYMOUSLY on this forum via
his bogus "Autocollimator" alter ego that I find extremely
objectionable.....

Art's first post in this thread:

"My website just passed the 40,000 hit mark. more than
I ever dreamt possible, athough Bob McKellar knew it all
along. I never thought there was so much interest in that
war so long gone and behind us. Thank you all for your
constant repeat visits and warm, encouraging E-Mails that
come on a daily basis from all over the world.. Makes this
old Bombardier feel good all over."

Then, Art ducked into a nearby phone booth and dons his
"Autocollimator"costume and posts a self-aggrandizing,
disgustingly arrogant followup note to HIMSELF:

"Your stuff is the most interesting on this NG. You can't beat
being there no matter what. I look for your posts every time
I log on. Keep 'em flying."

It was at that point when I had enough and finally objected:

"Since it's Halloween and all, just curious Art if you will you be
removing your "Autocollimator" mask after tonight? You're not
fooling anyone here but your own silly self, ya' know."

And, of course, the rest is history....

>To Art, Dudley, Vlad, Mike, Gordon, and the others who have gone far
>afield to the detriment of meaningful dialogue in RAM:

>Give it a rest guys. Take a deep breath, swallow some pride and
>refrain from responding. We'll all be better for it.

I was going to respond to Dudley's personal attacks, but as you will
note I have not. It is simply beyond my comprehension how a bunch
of grown men are so eager to excuse Art's incredibly childish
behavior. Wanna talk about "arrested development?" Most children
grow out of their "imaginary playmate" phase long before they even
reach puberty, but evidently not Kramer! If I hadn't exposed him, he
would STILL be having his little "make believe" conversations with his
"Autocollimator" imaginary "friend."

I'm not sure what's more pathetic, "Big Bad Brave Been There Done
That Bombadier Art" playing make believe games while pretending
to be "Autocollimator," or his RAM buddys who would desperately like
to excuse and rationalize away his unexcusable behavior as if it never
happened. Alas, but unfortunately it did happen and as far as I'm
concerned, Kramer and those who have chosen to defend his
reprehensible actions have lost all credibility and respect in my
eyes. And I'm certain in the knowledge that I'm not alone, but after
witnessing the crazed, mob-like attacking-the-messenger behavior
that ensued after I exposed Kramer as "Autocollimator," there ain't
a snowball's chance in hell any one of them will publically admit it.

Let's step back and think about what Kramer did for a moment, Ed.
Can you picture any one of your fellow River Rat's logging onto RAM
under an alias such as "Autocollimator" and then proceeding to stroke
thier own egos like in the example I provided above?

Can you even imagine Gen. Olds pretending to be "Autocollimator?"
Dunno about you, but I damn sure can't! How about Wimpy Peake, or
Karl Richter? Can you see envision either of them pretending to be
an "Autocollimator?" For that matter, can you picture Kramer's
comrades who made the ultimate sacrifice in the "Big One" pretending
to be "Autocollimators" on rec aviation military? Again, I certainly
cannot, however, I CAN envision those brave warriors whose read
Art's flaming of others and boasting on himself while hiding behind
his "Autocollimator" alias spinning in their graves right about now.
Talk about demeaning the whole warrior ethic!

[Mary Shafer]

On 03 Nov 2003 13:52:05 GMT, (MLenoch) wrote:

> > wrote:>Hey Mary. I built a Rogallo "Bat Glider" of bamboo
> and black plastic (with a
> >lot of strapping tape) in about '68. Ran off a hill side and smashed into a
> >tree :-)
>
> We did the same thing in '69, but we used duct-tape.........we were funded a
> bit more (my buddy had a job)!!

But did you have a Pontiac convertible, modified in Mickey Thompson's
speed shop, to get you into the air? Or a 1943 R4D Gooneybird?

Fortunately there are no trees on the lakebed, but there's a really
funny film clip of the vehicle bouncing around on one or two wheels
until it tips over and the pilot (Milt, naturally) can't reach the
ground or anything and is stuck there until the support crew shows up.

Frank Rogallo was a Langley guy, by the way. This was an all-NASA
effort.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

[MLenoch]

>Mary Shafer
wrote:>But did you have a Pontiac convertible, modified in Mickey Thompson's
>speed shop, to get you into the air? Or a 1943 R4D Gooneybird?

No, sorry. Just the quarry at West Lafayette. We ate a lot of scrub
bushes......greens are good for the diet.
VL

[Vicente Vazquez]

Ed Rasimus > wrote in message >...
> Give it a rest guys. Take a deep breath, swallow some pride and
> refrain from responding. We'll all be better for it.

"When Good Sense Rolled"
by Ed Rasimus. :-)

Well said...

[Regnirps]

(MLenoch) wrote:

> wrote:>Hey Mary. I built a Rogallo "Bat Glider" of bamboo
and black plastic (with a
>lot of strapping tape) in about '68. Ran off a hill side and smashed into a
>tree :-)
>

>>We did the same thing in '69, but we used duct-tape.........we were funded a
bit more (my buddy had a job)!!
VL
>>

Maybe we should form a club of the foolish yet still living! I think the plans
cost $3 and I later bought the Eiper hang glider plans for about $13 or $20.
$20 would have been a lot then, but they included construction details like the
bast way to strengthen a tube with an oak dowell : -)

I'm afraid my hole family as kind of that way. One brother races dirt bikes and
another (Jim Springer) is in the papers all over the country for the big
:"Friction Pitch" rescue in the Tetons, where he is head of mountain operations
and treage when he is up the the hills. I think he ran from 9000 to 13,000 feet
on this one and beat the copter.

-- Charlie Springer

[Regnirps]

Mary Shafer wrote:

> > wrote:>Hey Mary. I built a Rogallo "Bat Glider" of bamboo
> and black plastic (with a
> >lot of strapping tape) in about '68. Ran off a hill side and smashed into a
> >tree :-)
>
> We did the same thing in '69, but we used duct-tape.........we were funded a
> bit more (my buddy had a job)!!

<<But did you have a Pontiac convertible, modified in Mickey Thompson's
speed shop, to get you into the air? Or a 1943 R4D Gooneybird?>>

Uhm. No. I thought about a tow but pictured the way my kites would sometimes
whip themselves into the ground and decided against it.

<<Fortunately there are no trees on the lakebed, but there's a really
funny film clip of the vehicle bouncing around on one or two wheels
until it tips over and the pilot (Milt, naturally) can't reach the
ground or anything and is stuck there until the support crew shows up. >>

I remember seeing some very inspirational but rather painfull looking films.

-- Charlie Springer

[MLenoch]

>

wrote:>Eiper hang glider plans for about $13 or $20.

Wow.....now there's a name from the past! I about forgot who the plans came
from!!
Thx.
VL

[Mike Marron]

>"Dudley Henriques" > wrote:
>>"Gene Storey" > wrote:

>>Probably an airstrike against the trailer-trash gone bad.

>>I hope the Homeland Defense can sort out this blatant attack by Canada!

>In all the years I flew professionally and watched people I knew die in
>airplanes, including some very close to me personally, I never quite
>understood how a human being, totally unrelated to an incident and simply a
>spectator or the receiver of news; nothing else; could arrive on the scene
>after someone had been killed and offer to the world a sentiment as totally
>thoughtless and downright cruel as you have done here.

My sentiments exactly, Dud. But then, aren't your sentiments below
equally as "thoughtless and downright cruel" as Genes?

From: Dudley Henriques )
Subject: Re: 40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Date: 2003-11-01 13:31:51 PST

Or perhaps instead, we can just put Mike into the box, assume a
superposition, and then the whole lot of us can go out and have a
drink because none of us really give a **** whether Mike's dead
or NOT!!! :-)))

[Alan Minyard]

On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 17:05:48 -0800, Mary Shafer > wrote:

>On 03 Nov 2003 13:52:05 GMT, (MLenoch) wrote:
>
>> > wrote:>Hey Mary. I built a Rogallo "Bat Glider" of bamboo
>> and black plastic (with a
>> >lot of strapping tape) in about '68. Ran off a hill side and smashed into a
>> >tree :-)
>>
>> We did the same thing in '69, but we used duct-tape.........we were funded a
>> bit more (my buddy had a job)!!
>
>But did you have a Pontiac convertible, modified in Mickey Thompson's
>speed shop, to get you into the air? Or a 1943 R4D Gooneybird?
>
Nope, mine was a '67 GTO coupe, modified by the Pontiac NASCAR folks for
the original owner, who was one of their engineers. It was FAST :-)

Al Minyard

[Dudley Henriques]

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> >"Dudley Henriques" > wrote:
> >>"Gene Storey" > wrote:
>
> >>Probably an airstrike against the trailer-trash gone bad.
>
> >>I hope the Homeland Defense can sort out this blatant attack by Canada!
>
> >In all the years I flew professionally and watched people I knew die in
> >airplanes, including some very close to me personally, I never quite
> >understood how a human being, totally unrelated to an incident and simply
a
> >spectator or the receiver of news; nothing else; could arrive on the
scene
> >after someone had been killed and offer to the world a sentiment as
totally
> >thoughtless and downright cruel as you have done here.
>
> My sentiments exactly, Dud. But then, aren't your sentiments below
> equally as "thoughtless and downright cruel" as Genes?
>
> From: Dudley Henriques )
> Subject: Re: 40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.
> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
> Date: 2003-11-01 13:31:51 PST
>
> Or perhaps instead, we can just put Mike into the box, assume a
> superposition, and then the whole lot of us can go out and have a
> drink because none of us really give a **** whether Mike's dead
> or NOT!!! :-)))

Hardly. The reference to you being dead was simply an obvious pairing with
"Schrodinger's cat", where the possible death of the cat is a well know
issue in Physics. "Giving a **** about it" is simply a personal option on a
parody, NOT a comment on an actual event.
I can assure you in the abstract that if you actually had died, I don't
believe any of us here on RAM would feel the need to post something as cruel
and thoughtless as did the poster being discussed here now, which was a
comment expressed on an actual event.
I hope this clears up any "misunderstanding" you might have concerning this
issue, as it will be my only comment on it with you. If you pursue it any
further, you'll be talking to yourself or to someone else.
Thank you
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt