Finland - USA 2-0

[noname]

Finland is the world's most competitive economy followed by the United
States, Sweden, Denmark and Taiwan, according to a Global
Competitiveness Report released Thursday.

....

In a separate ranking for business competitiveness, Finland retook the
leading position after dropping to second place behind the United States
last year.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20031030/ts_nm/economy_competitiveness_dc

[Alan Minyard]

On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:01:57 +0200, noname > wrote:

> Finland is the world's most competitive economy followed by the United
>States, Sweden, Denmark and Taiwan, according to a Global
>Competitiveness Report released Thursday.
>
>...
>
>In a separate ranking for business competitiveness, Finland retook the
>leading position after dropping to second place behind the United States
>last year.
>
>http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20031030/ts_nm/economy_competitiveness_dc

Well, when you have the GDP of Rhode Island, both of your companies can
be competitive.

This is a ridiculous "statistic".

Get a life.

Al Minyard

[Juvat]

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police noname
> blurted out:

> Finland is the world's most competitive economy followed by the United
>States, Sweden, Denmark and Taiwan, according to a Global
>Competitiveness Report released Thursday.
>

In economic terms "competitive economy" is extremely nebulous, and
some economists would suggest meaningless.

Which nation's economy, per capita GDP (i.e. most productive per
person) is the highest?

Juvat

[William Wright]

"Juvat" > wrote in message
...
> After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police noname
> > blurted out:
>
> > Finland is the world's most competitive economy followed by the United
> >States, Sweden, Denmark and Taiwan, according to a Global
> >Competitiveness Report released Thursday.
> >
>
> In economic terms "competitive economy" is extremely nebulous, and
> some economists would suggest meaningless.
>
> Which nation's economy, per capita GDP (i.e. most productive per
> person) is the highest?

http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html

Luxemburg 1, USA 2 ... Finland 19

>
> Juvat

[Juvat]

I had asked:

>> Which nation's economy, per capita GDP (i.e. most productive per
>> person) is the highest?

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, William
Wright blurted out:

>http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html
>
>Luxemburg 1, USA 2 ... Finland 19

Touche...now the rest of the world can tremble. Behold, the economic
dynamo that is...Luxemborg!

I think there is a reason it is called the dismal science. Don't like
a statistic? No problem, we'll come up with another metric.

Juvat

[Bjørnar Bolsøy]

"William Wright" > wrote in
news:YQzob.56645$ao4.154505@attbi_s51:
> "Juvat" > wrote in message
> ...
>> After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police
>> noname > blurted out:
>>
>> > Finland is the world's most competitive economy followed by
>> > the United
>> >States, Sweden, Denmark and Taiwan, according to a Global
>> >Competitiveness Report released Thursday.
>> >
>>
>> In economic terms "competitive economy" is extremely nebulous,
>> and some economists would suggest meaningless.


Not to set off a braging contest, but WRT the nordic
economies, below are some realworld figures for comparison
to the above.


>> Which nation's economy, per capita GDP (i.e. most productive
>> per person) is the highest?
>
> http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2004rank
..
> html
>
> Luxemburg 1, USA 2 ... Finland 19


Norway 6..


Of the nordic countries, Norway's GDP is 37% ahead of Finland
and Sweden according to the latest figures from Nordic
Statistical Yearbook 2003.

http://www.dst.dk/dstkt/nord2003/204.PDF


Norway also has the highest net foreign trade result..

http://www.ssb.no/vis/magasinet/norge_verden/art-2003-10-10-
01.html



Highest net revenues (through the $100 Billion Petroleums
Fund):

http://www.norges-bank.no/english/petroleum_fund/


...and thus no foreign debt:

http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2079rank.h
tml



Norway also has the lowest inflationrate..

http://www.ssb.no/vis/magasinet/norge_verden/art-2003-10-10-
01.html



..and highes employment rate of the Nordic countries:

http://www.dst.dk/dstkt/nord2003/155.PDF


In other words, per capita the Norwegian economy is, by far,
the strongest of the nordic countries.


Regards...

[Vince Brannigan]

Bjørnar Bolsøy wrote:

>
> In other words, per capita the Norwegian economy is, by far,
> the strongest of the nordic countries.
>
>

doesn't mean anything if you are sitting on a pool of oil. Oil mean
you can pump money out of the ground not that the economy is productive

Vince

[NEMO ME IMPUNE]

How many Aircraft carriers in Finland?

[Cub Driver]

> Finland is the world's most competitive economy followed by the United
>States, Sweden, Denmark and Taiwan, according to a Global
>Competitiveness Report released Thursday.

Thank God! We will have some help in hauling the world out of
recession.

Pull away, Finland!

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[WaltBJ]

Cub Driver > wrote in message >...
> > Finland is the world's most competitive economy followed by the United
> >States, Sweden, Denmark and Taiwan, according to a Global
> >Competitiveness Report released Thursday.
>
SNIP:

Do they not also lead the world in suicides?
Walt BJ

[Nils Rostedt]

"WaltBJ" > wrote in message
om...
> Cub Driver > wrote in message
>...
> > > Finland is the world's most competitive economy followed by the
United
> > >States, Sweden, Denmark and Taiwan, according to a Global
> > >Competitiveness Report released Thursday.
> >
> SNIP:
>
> Do they not also lead the world in suicides?

Not correct.
http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suiciderates/en/

[José Herculano]

> > Do they not also lead the world in suicides?
>
> Not correct.
> http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suiciderates/en/

Looks like they do, amongst civilized nations. Holly cow, the rates on the
former Soviet and Warpact countries.... those guys must really live
desperate lives... :-(
_____________
José Herculano

[Seraphim]

"José Herculano" > wrote in
:

>> > Do they not also lead the world in suicides?
>>
>> Not correct.
>> http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suiciderates/en/
>
> Looks like they do, amongst civilized nations.

Japan is higher.

[Bjørnar Bolsøy]

"NEMO ME IMPUNE" > wrote in news:bnvno3
:

> How many Aircraft carriers in Finland?

47 I believe.



Regards...

[Bjørnar Bolsøy]

Vince Brannigan > wrote in
:
> Bjørnar Bolsøy wrote:
>
>>
>> In other words, per capita the Norwegian economy is, by far,
>> the strongest of the nordic countries.
>>
>>
>
> doesn't mean anything if you are sitting on a pool of oil. Oil
> mean you can pump money out of the ground not that the economy
> is productive

Well it is a natural resource. However, oil isn't just "pumped
out of the ground" here, it's pumped off the weather harsh
conditions on the continental shelf at depths of up to 1000ft.
It requires unique technology and huge investments to build and
maintain the collossus production platforms and to transport
the oil and gas to its customers on the European continent.


Regards...

[Vince Brannigan]

Bjørnar Bolsøy wrote:
>
>>doesn't mean anything if you are sitting on a pool of oil. Oil
>>mean you can pump money out of the ground not that the economy
>>is productive
>
>
> Well it is a natural resource. However, oil isn't just "pumped
> out of the ground" here, it's pumped off the weather harsh
> conditions on the continental shelf at depths of up to 1000ft.
> It requires unique technology and huge investments to build and
> maintain the collossus production platforms and to transport
> the oil and gas to its customers on the European continent.
>

Sure, but all that goes into the GDP

On a humorous coincidence in High School I dated the
girl who became president of Mobil Exploration Norway, CM Devine.

Vince

[Alan Minyard]

On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 20:44:40 GMT, "William Wright" > wrote:

>
>
>"Juvat" > wrote in message
...
>> After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police noname
>> > blurted out:
>>
>> > Finland is the world's most competitive economy followed by the United
>> >States, Sweden, Denmark and Taiwan, according to a Global
>> >Competitiveness Report released Thursday.
>> >
>>
>> In economic terms "competitive economy" is extremely nebulous, and
>> some economists would suggest meaningless.
>>
>> Which nation's economy, per capita GDP (i.e. most productive per
>> person) is the highest?
>
>http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html
>
>Luxemburg 1, USA 2 ... Finland 19
>
>>
>> Juvat
>
Run for the hills, men. Luxembourg is coming!!!!!!! :-)))

Al Minyard

[Alan Minyard]

On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 03:51:06 GMT, "Bjørnar Bolsøy" > wrote:

>"William Wright" > wrote in
>news:YQzob.56645$ao4.154505@attbi_s51:
>> "Juvat" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police
>>> noname > blurted out:
>>>
>>> > Finland is the world's most competitive economy followed by
>>> > the United
>>> >States, Sweden, Denmark and Taiwan, according to a Global
>>> >Competitiveness Report released Thursday.
>>> >
>>>
>>> In economic terms "competitive economy" is extremely nebulous,
>>> and some economists would suggest meaningless.
>
>
> Not to set off a braging contest, but WRT the nordic
> economies, below are some realworld figures for comparison
> to the above.
>
>
>>> Which nation's economy, per capita GDP (i.e. most productive
>>> per person) is the highest?
>>
>> http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2004rank
>.
>> html
>>
>> Luxemburg 1, USA 2 ... Finland 19
>
>
> Norway 6..
>
>
> Of the nordic countries, Norway's GDP is 37% ahead of Finland
> and Sweden according to the latest figures from Nordic
> Statistical Yearbook 2003.
>
>
Sort of like watching mice fight.

Al Minyard

[Alan Minyard]

On Sat, 1 Nov 2003 17:57:04 +0200, "Nils Rostedt" > wrote:

>
>"WaltBJ" > wrote in message
om...
>> Cub Driver > wrote in message
>...
>> > > Finland is the world's most competitive economy followed by the
>United
>> > >States, Sweden, Denmark and Taiwan, according to a Global
>> > >Competitiveness Report released Thursday.
>> >
>> SNIP:
>>
>> Do they not also lead the world in suicides?
>
>Not correct.
>http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suiciderates/en/
>

They are definitely a contender for the title, but the former USSR
countries are way ahead, as is Japan.

Al Minyard

[Bjørnar Bolsøy]

Alan Minyard > wrote in
:
> On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 03:51:06 GMT, "Bjørnar Bolsøy"
> > wrote:

>>>> Which nation's economy, per capita GDP (i.e. most productive
>>>> per person) is the highest?
>>>
>>> http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2004ran
>>> k
>>.
>>> html
>>>
>>> Luxemburg 1, USA 2 ... Finland 19
>>
>>
>> Norway 6..
>>
>>
>> Of the nordic countries, Norway's GDP is 37% ahead of Finland
>> and Sweden according to the latest figures from Nordic
>> Statistical Yearbook 2003.
>>
>>
> Sort of like watching mice fight.
>
> Al Minyard

Now that' a quite a respectful and openminded attitude. :^)


Regards...

[Bjørnar Bolsøy]

Vince Brannigan > wrote in
:
> Bjørnar Bolsøy wrote:
>>
>>>doesn't mean anything if you are sitting on a pool of oil. Oil
>>>mean you can pump money out of the ground not that the economy
>>>is productive
>>
>>
>> Well it is a natural resource. However, oil isn't just "pumped
>> out of the ground" here, it's pumped off the weather harsh
>> conditions on the continental shelf at depths of up to 1000ft.
>> It requires unique technology and huge investments to build and
>> maintain the collossus production platforms and to transport
>> the oil and gas to its customers on the European continent.
>>
>
> Sure, but all that goes into the GDP
>
> On a humorous coincidence in High School I dated the
> girl who became president of Mobil Exploration Norway, CM Devine.
>
> Vince

I say. :) Mobile's head office was just downtown from where I
grew up, in Stavanger, not far off a couple of quite decent
nightclubs I might add. Just the one date, was it? :D



Regards...

[Keith Willshaw]

"Bjørnar Bolsøy" > wrote in message
...
> Vince Brannigan > wrote in
> :
> > Bjørnar Bolsøy wrote:

> Well it is a natural resource. However, oil isn't just "pumped
> out of the ground" here, it's pumped off the weather harsh
> conditions on the continental shelf at depths of up to 1000ft.
> It requires unique technology and huge investments to build and
> maintain the collossus production platforms and to transport
> the oil and gas to its customers on the European continent.
>

High technology sure but hardly unique, there are offshore oil platforms
in equally harsh conditions the world over, I know I used to
work for one of the main contractors in the field.

As bad as conditions in winter in the North Sea are I'd hazard they
are less extreme than those found in Cook Inlet Alaska or
off Sakhalin.

At any rate there are half a dozen contractors capable of doing
such work and at least 2 of the leaders are American and another
British.

Keith

[Bjørnar Bolsøy]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in
:
> "Bjørnar Bolsøy" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Vince Brannigan > wrote in
>> :
>> > Bjørnar Bolsøy wrote:
>
>> Well it is a natural resource. However, oil isn't just "pumped
>> out of the ground" here, it's pumped off the weather harsh
>> conditions on the continental shelf at depths of up to 1000ft.
>> It requires unique technology and huge investments to build
>> and maintain the collossus production platforms and to
>> transport the oil and gas to its customers on the European
>> continent.
>>
>
> High technology sure but hardly unique, there are offshore oil
> platforms in equally harsh conditions the world over, I know I
> used to work for one of the main contractors in the field.

Absolutely, I was refering to land and traditional shallow
water vs. deepsea offshore production.


> As bad as conditions in winter in the North Sea are I'd hazard
> they are less extreme than those found in Cook Inlet Alaska or
> off Sakhalin.

Oh yes, extreamly challenging artic temperature, ice and
seimological conditions, though these are shallow water fields
compared to say Troll or Gullfaks. Deep sea drilling in tough
weather poses a whole different set of challenges.

And I'd vager that the sea conditions of the Northsea are
tougher, with 60ft waves not uncommon. That's what Sakhalin
expects once a century.


I was looking for a suitable group to post follow-ups, but
couldn't find any on my newsfeed, so I apologise for my
off-topic posting in here.



Regards...

[Matthew G. Saroff]

"William Wright" > wrote:

>
>
>"Juvat" > wrote in message
...
>> After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police noname
>> > blurted out:
>>
>> > Finland is the world's most competitive economy followed by the United
>> >States, Sweden, Denmark and Taiwan, according to a Global
>> >Competitiveness Report released Thursday.
>> >
>>
>> In economic terms "competitive economy" is extremely nebulous, and
>> some economists would suggest meaningless.
>>
>> Which nation's economy, per capita GDP (i.e. most productive per
>> person) is the highest?
>
>http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html
>
>Luxemburg 1, USA 2 ... Finland 19
>
One should understand that per capita GDP is also
imprecise. We, for example, spend something like twice the
amount per capita on medical expenses (something like 20% of
GDP), with generally lower life expectancy and higher infant
mortality.
Our GDP is boosted by the inefficiencies in health care.
--
--Matthew Saroff
Shrub stole the election, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt
http://www.pobox.com/~msaroff/liar

[phil hunt]

On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 23:10:07 -0500, Matthew G. Saroff > wrote:
>
> One should understand that per capita GDP is also
>imprecise. We, for example, spend something like twice the
>amount per capita on medical expenses (something like 20% of
>GDP), with generally lower life expectancy and higher infant
>mortality.
> Our GDP is boosted by the inefficiencies in health care.

GDP isn't actually a measure of wealth generated -- though it's
often used as that. It's a measure of economic activity. If I crash
my car and pay someone 100 quid to fix it, that adds 100 pounds to
Britain's GDP, but nothing to its wealth.

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: >, but first subtract 275 and reverse
the last two letters).

[WaltBJ]

"Nils Rostedt" > wrote in message >...
> "WaltBJ" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Cub Driver > wrote in message
> >...
> > > > Finland is the world's most competitive economy followed by the
> United
> > > >States, Sweden, Denmark and Taiwan, according to a Global
> > > >Competitiveness Report released Thursday.
> > >
> > SNIP:
> >
> > Do they not also lead the world in suicides?
>
> Not correct.
> http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suiciderates/en/

I see. Only twice the rate in the USA.

Walt BJ

[Yama]

"WaltBJ" > wrote in message
om...
> "Nils Rostedt" > wrote in message
>...
> > "WaltBJ" > wrote in message
> > Not correct.
> > http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suiciderates/en/
>
> I see. Only twice the rate in the USA.

On a plus side, odds of getting gunned down are considerably smaller...

[Fred J. McCall]

"Yama" > wrote:

:
:"WaltBJ" > wrote in message
. com...
:> "Nils Rostedt" > wrote in message
>...
:> > "WaltBJ" > wrote in message
:> > Not correct.
:> > http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suiciderates/en/
:>
:> I see. Only twice the rate in the USA.
:
:On a plus side, odds of getting gunned down are considerably smaller...

Well, odds of getting 'gunned down' here aren't significantly higher
than they are in Britain, if one starts off with the assumption that
one isn't a gang banger. Stay out of really bad neighborhoods and
avoid egregiously stupid behaviour like trying to frighten and
ignoring the warnings of armed people in their own homes and your odds
are much greater of slipping and falling to death in the bathtub than
they are of being 'gunned down'.


--
"Rule Number One for Slayers - Don't die."
-- Buffy, the Vampire Slayer

[Yama]

"Fred J. McCall" > wrote in message
...
> "Yama" > wrote:
> :On a plus side, odds of getting gunned down are considerably smaller...
>
> Well, odds of getting 'gunned down' here aren't significantly higher
> than they are in Britain, if one starts off with the assumption that
> one isn't a gang banger. Stay out of really bad neighborhoods and
> avoid egregiously stupid behaviour like trying to frighten and
> ignoring the warnings of armed people in their own homes and your odds
> are much greater of slipping and falling to death in the bathtub than
> they are of being 'gunned down'.

I don't quite see how this counters my point - "bad neighborhoods" exist in
all countries...

PS: Faith is better than Buffy

[Fred J. McCall]

"Yama" > wrote:

:
:"Fred J. McCall" > wrote in message
.. .
:> "Yama" > wrote:
:> :On a plus side, odds of getting gunned down are considerably smaller...
:>
:> Well, odds of getting 'gunned down' here aren't significantly higher
:> than they are in Britain, if one starts off with the assumption that
:> one isn't a gang banger. Stay out of really bad neighborhoods and
:> avoid egregiously stupid behaviour like trying to frighten and
:> ignoring the warnings of armed people in their own homes and your odds
:> are much greater of slipping and falling to death in the bathtub than
:> they are of being 'gunned down'.
:
:I don't quite see how this counters my point - "bad neighborhoods" exist in
:all countries...

Yes, but most folks don't live in them, so your odds aren't
appreciably different here than they are anywhere else.

:PS: Faith is better than Buffy

Hotter, certainly. But Buffy got most of the good lines.


--
"Adrenaline is like exercise, but without the excessive gym fees."
-- Professor Walsh, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"

[Alan Minyard]

On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 13:19:22 GMT, Fred J. McCall > wrote:

>"Yama" > wrote:
>
>:
>:"WaltBJ" > wrote in message
. com...
>:> "Nils Rostedt" > wrote in message
>...
>:> > "WaltBJ" > wrote in message
>:> > Not correct.
>:> > http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suiciderates/en/
>:>
>:> I see. Only twice the rate in the USA.
>:
>:On a plus side, odds of getting gunned down are considerably smaller...
>
>Well, odds of getting 'gunned down' here aren't significantly higher
>than they are in Britain, if one starts off with the assumption that
>one isn't a gang banger. Stay out of really bad neighborhoods and
>avoid egregiously stupid behaviour like trying to frighten and
>ignoring the warnings of armed people in their own homes and your odds
>are much greater of slipping and falling to death in the bathtub than
>they are of being 'gunned down'.

Not to mention the fact that I can, and would, shoot back!!!!!!!

Al Minyard

[Yama]

"Alan Minyard" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 13:19:22 GMT, Fred J. McCall >
wrote:
> >Well, odds of getting 'gunned down' here aren't significantly higher
> >than they are in Britain, if one starts off with the assumption that
> >one isn't a gang banger. Stay out of really bad neighborhoods and
> >avoid egregiously stupid behaviour like trying to frighten and
> >ignoring the warnings of armed people in their own homes and your odds
> >are much greater of slipping and falling to death in the bathtub than
> >they are of being 'gunned down'.
>
> Not to mention the fact that I can, and would, shoot back!!!!!!!

But we don't have to (though we certainly could...lotsa guns in Finland)

[WaltBJ]

What's 'really going to get you?'
1) Auto accidents. Another death here this weekend - skidded on the
ice, ejected from the car, not wearing a seat belt. 2 'Darwins' here -
driving too fast, and no seat belt. FWIW in our two counties here in
CO there were 135 ice-related accidents the same weekend. Dumbth
coefficient running high.
2) Iatrogenic deaths - due to your friendly medical institution. I
just read that in elective 'bariatric surgery' (stomach stitching for
obesity) the current death rate is 1 in 200. Also, the current tool
for medical-caused deaths in the USA is about 100,000 a year,
excelling fire arms and auto accidents combined. That'll give you
something to think about as the anesthesia takes hold - 'wonder if
I'll wake up?' or worse, 'wonder where I'll wake up?'

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
"Yama" > wrote:

> "WaltBJ" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "Nils Rostedt" > wrote in message
> >...
> > > "WaltBJ" > wrote in message
> > > Not correct.
> > > http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suiciderates/en/
> >
> > I see. Only twice the rate in the USA.
>
> On a plus side, odds of getting gunned down are considerably smaller...

Dead is dead, Bud. In the end, it doesn't matter much the means.

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, Fred J. McCall
> writes
>"Yama" > wrote:
>:On a plus side, odds of getting gunned down are considerably smaller...
>
>Well, odds of getting 'gunned down' here aren't significantly higher
>than they are in Britain, if one starts off with the assumption that
>one isn't a gang banger.

But then starting assumptions are one of the reasons for the claim
"lies, damn lies, and statistics".

We're regularly told how we're at risk of violent death, hateful
enslavement, or both because we have fewer firearms than the US. The
point that my neighbourhood's had one armed robbery in five years (and
that with a toy gun... the cashier laughed and the would-be robber fled)
is by the bye. Apparently we're doomed to imminent death by a lack of
handguns.

Reality is less straightforward. We're not all going to die for a lack
of weapons and the US is not going to self-destruct for a surplus of
domestic firearms.



--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

[Alan Minyard]

On 2 Nov 2003 12:11:47 -0800, (WaltBJ) wrote:

>What's 'really going to get you?'
>1) Auto accidents. Another death here this weekend - skidded on the
>ice, ejected from the car, not wearing a seat belt. 2 'Darwins' here -
>driving too fast, and no seat belt. FWIW in our two counties here in
>CO there were 135 ice-related accidents the same weekend. Dumbth
>coefficient running high.
>2) Iatrogenic deaths - due to your friendly medical institution. I
>just read that in elective 'bariatric surgery' (stomach stitching for
>obesity) the current death rate is 1 in 200. Also, the current tool
>for medical-caused deaths in the USA is about 100,000 a year,
>excelling fire arms and auto accidents combined. That'll give you
>something to think about as the anesthesia takes hold - 'wonder if
>I'll wake up?' or worse, 'wonder where I'll wake up?'

Walt

If I lived in europe I would have been dead thirteen years ago. Their
medical care system is pathetic compared to what it could be.
It is no wonder that so many docs in the US are from the EU or
Canada.

Al Minyard

[Bjørnar Bolsøy]

Alan Minyard > wrote in
:
> On 2 Nov 2003 12:11:47 -0800, (WaltBJ)
> wrote:
>
>>What's 'really going to get you?'
>>1) Auto accidents. Another death here this weekend - skidded on
>>the ice, ejected from the car, not wearing a seat belt. 2
>>'Darwins' here - driving too fast, and no seat belt. FWIW in our
>>two counties here in CO there were 135 ice-related accidents the
>>same weekend. Dumbth coefficient running high.
>>2) Iatrogenic deaths - due to your friendly medical institution.
>>I just read that in elective 'bariatric surgery' (stomach
>>stitching for obesity) the current death rate is 1 in 200. Also,
>>the current tool for medical-caused deaths in the USA is about
>>100,000 a year, excelling fire arms and auto accidents combined.
>>That'll give you something to think about as the anesthesia
>>takes hold - 'wonder if I'll wake up?' or worse, 'wonder where
>>I'll wake up?'
>
> Walt
>
> If I lived in europe I would have been dead thirteen years ago.
> Their medical care system is pathetic compared to what it could
> be. It is no wonder that so many docs in the US are from the EU
> or Canada.

Which particular european nations and medical care system
are you refering to?


Regards...

[Marcus Andersson]

Juvat > wrote in message >...
> I had asked:
>
> >> Which nation's economy, per capita GDP (i.e. most productive per
> >> person) is the highest?
>
> After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, William
> Wright blurted out:
>
> >http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html
> >
> >Luxemburg 1, USA 2 ... Finland 19
>
> Touche...now the rest of the world can tremble. Behold, the economic
> dynamo that is...Luxemborg!


Jealous, eh?

[Marcus Andersson]

Alan Minyard > wrote in message >...
> On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 03:51:06 GMT, "Bjørnar Bolsøy" > wrote:
>
> >"William Wright" > wrote in
> >news:YQzob.56645$ao4.154505@attbi_s51:
> >> "Juvat" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>> After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police
> >>> noname > blurted out:
> >>>
> >>> > Finland is the world's most competitive economy followed by
> >>> > the United
> >>> >States, Sweden, Denmark and Taiwan, according to a Global
> >>> >Competitiveness Report released Thursday.
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>> In economic terms "competitive economy" is extremely nebulous,
> >>> and some economists would suggest meaningless.
> >
> >
> > Not to set off a braging contest, but WRT the nordic
> > economies, below are some realworld figures for comparison
> > to the above.
> >
> >
> >>> Which nation's economy, per capita GDP (i.e. most productive
> >>> per person) is the highest?
> >>
> >> http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2004rank
> .
> >> html
> >>
> >> Luxemburg 1, USA 2 ... Finland 19
> >
> >
> > Norway 6..
> >
> >
> > Of the nordic countries, Norway's GDP is 37% ahead of Finland
> > and Sweden according to the latest figures from Nordic
> > Statistical Yearbook 2003.
> >
> >
> Sort of like watching mice fight.
>
> Al Minyard


Until you're unlucky enough to get caught in between. Speaking of
fighting... I heard Norway these days has Europe's highest defence
budget, per capita.

[Marcus Andersson]

"NEMO ME IMPUNE" > wrote in message >...
> How many Aircraft carriers in Finland?


(since when does this thread have anything to do with aircraft
carriers? Besides, I don't have a clue what this thread has to do in
the rec.aviation.military group.)

That being said, Finland does have around 60 F-18 Hornets, so I guess
they must have a couple of aircraft carriers too. I mean, why else
would they have carrier-planes?

[Marcus Andersson]

Alan Minyard > wrote in message >...
> On 2 Nov 2003 12:11:47 -0800, (WaltBJ) wrote:
>
> >What's 'really going to get you?'
> >1) Auto accidents. Another death here this weekend - skidded on the
> >ice, ejected from the car, not wearing a seat belt. 2 'Darwins' here -
> >driving too fast, and no seat belt. FWIW in our two counties here in
> >CO there were 135 ice-related accidents the same weekend. Dumbth
> >coefficient running high.
> >2) Iatrogenic deaths - due to your friendly medical institution. I
> >just read that in elective 'bariatric surgery' (stomach stitching for
> >obesity) the current death rate is 1 in 200. Also, the current tool
> >for medical-caused deaths in the USA is about 100,000 a year,
> >excelling fire arms and auto accidents combined. That'll give you
> >something to think about as the anesthesia takes hold - 'wonder if
> >I'll wake up?' or worse, 'wonder where I'll wake up?'
>
> Walt
>
> If I lived in europe I would have been dead thirteen years ago. Their
> medical care system is pathetic compared to what it could be.


This is true. The Swedish medical system, for instance, is as pathetic
as the American one. And it doesn't have to be. It's just for
socialist ideological reasons we have it the way we do.

[Marcus Andersson]

Alan Minyard > wrote in message >...
> On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 13:19:22 GMT, Fred J. McCall > wrote:
>
> >"Yama" > wrote:
> >
> >:
> >:"WaltBJ" > wrote in message
> . com...
> >:> "Nils Rostedt" > wrote in message
> >...
> >:> > "WaltBJ" > wrote in message
> >:> > Not correct.
> >:> > http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suiciderates/en/
> >:>
> >:> I see. Only twice the rate in the USA.
> >:
> >:On a plus side, odds of getting gunned down are considerably smaller...
> >
> >Well, odds of getting 'gunned down' here aren't significantly higher
> >than they are in Britain, if one starts off with the assumption that
> >one isn't a gang banger. Stay out of really bad neighborhoods and
> >avoid egregiously stupid behaviour like trying to frighten and
> >ignoring the warnings of armed people in their own homes and your odds
> >are much greater of slipping and falling to death in the bathtub than
> >they are of being 'gunned down'.
>
> Not to mention the fact that I can, and would, shoot back!!!!!!!


If you ever tried shooting back after you've been shot dead, you'd
notice that it isn't that easy.

[Bjørnar]

(Marcus Andersson) wrote in
om:
> Alan Minyard > wrote in message
> >...
>> On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 13:19:22 GMT, Fred J. McCall
>> > wrote:

>> >Well, odds of getting 'gunned down' here aren't significantly higher
>> >than they are in Britain, if one starts off with the assumption that
>> >one isn't a gang banger. Stay out of really bad neighborhoods and
>> >avoid egregiously stupid behaviour like trying to frighten and
>> >ignoring the warnings of armed people in their own homes and your
>> >odds are much greater of slipping and falling to death in the
>> >bathtub than they are of being 'gunned down'.
>>
>> Not to mention the fact that I can, and would, shoot back!!!!!!!
>
>
> If you ever tried shooting back after you've been shot dead, you'd
> notice that it isn't that easy.

In war-time you would shoot first and ask later if your're not
100% certain.

For some, though, the issue is blurred.


Regards...

[tadaa]

> That being said, Finland does have around 60 F-18 Hornets, so I guess
> they must have a couple of aircraft carriers too. I mean, why else
> would they have carrier-planes?

Shhhh... (the black helicopters are on their way)

[Alan Minyard]

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 01:09:56 GMT, "Bjørnar Bolsøy" > wrote:

>Alan Minyard > wrote in
:
>> On 2 Nov 2003 12:11:47 -0800, (WaltBJ)
>> wrote:
>>
>>>What's 'really going to get you?'
>>>1) Auto accidents. Another death here this weekend - skidded on
>>>the ice, ejected from the car, not wearing a seat belt. 2
>>>'Darwins' here - driving too fast, and no seat belt. FWIW in our
>>>two counties here in CO there were 135 ice-related accidents the
>>>same weekend. Dumbth coefficient running high.
>>>2) Iatrogenic deaths - due to your friendly medical institution.
>>>I just read that in elective 'bariatric surgery' (stomach
>>>stitching for obesity) the current death rate is 1 in 200. Also,
>>>the current tool for medical-caused deaths in the USA is about
>>>100,000 a year, excelling fire arms and auto accidents combined.
>>>That'll give you something to think about as the anesthesia
>>>takes hold - 'wonder if I'll wake up?' or worse, 'wonder where
>>>I'll wake up?'
>>
>> Walt
>>
>> If I lived in europe I would have been dead thirteen years ago.
>> Their medical care system is pathetic compared to what it could
>> be. It is no wonder that so many docs in the US are from the EU
>> or Canada.
>
> Which particular european nations and medical care system
> are you refering to?
>
>
> Regards...

All of them. They are decades behind the US Medical Care
system.

Al Minyard

[Alan Minyard]

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 08:04:26 GMT, "Bjørnar" > wrote:

(Marcus Andersson) wrote in
om:
>> Alan Minyard > wrote in message
>> >...
>>> On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 13:19:22 GMT, Fred J. McCall
>>> > wrote:
>
>>> >Well, odds of getting 'gunned down' here aren't significantly higher
>>> >than they are in Britain, if one starts off with the assumption that
>>> >one isn't a gang banger. Stay out of really bad neighborhoods and
>>> >avoid egregiously stupid behaviour like trying to frighten and
>>> >ignoring the warnings of armed people in their own homes and your
>>> >odds are much greater of slipping and falling to death in the
>>> >bathtub than they are of being 'gunned down'.
>>>
>>> Not to mention the fact that I can, and would, shoot back!!!!!!!
>>
>>
>> If you ever tried shooting back after you've been shot dead, you'd
>> notice that it isn't that easy.
>
> In war-time you would shoot first and ask later if your're not
> 100% certain.
>
> For some, though, the issue is blurred.
>
I am a very qualified pistol shot, trained in combat shooting.
Shooting me "dead" from anything other than an ambush
would be rather difficult. For europe, everything is "blurred"

Al Minyard

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, Alan Minyard
> writes
>On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 01:09:56 GMT, "Bjørnar Bolsøy" <bbolsoy@
>nospam.nospam> wrote:
>> Which particular european nations and medical care system
>> are you refering to?

>All of them. They are decades behind the US Medical Care
>system.

Provided you're adequately insured, US healthcare is by all accounts
very good.

One great benefit of living in the UK is that I don't have to worry
about my insurers causing me harm to save money, or refusing to cover my
treatment.

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, Alan Minyard
> writes
>On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 08:04:26 GMT, "Bjørnar" > wrote:
>> In war-time you would shoot first and ask later if your're not
>> 100% certain.
>>
>> For some, though, the issue is blurred.
>>
>I am a very qualified pistol shot, trained in combat shooting.
>Shooting me "dead" from anything other than an ambush
>would be rather difficult.

Dreadfully easy, Al. I match your pistol and raise you a section of
troops with scoped rifles and support weapons, and the firefight starts
at two hundred yards. I'll even let you fire first. (If it's wartime
then "fighting fair" is for the survivors on the losing side to console
themselves with)


The way to kill an alert armed man is to deceive rather than to
outshoot. Don't leap out, wild-eyed and frantic, shouting "Die, American
pig-dog-scum!"; but (for example) man a tidy, disciplined vehicle check
point and politely ask to see identification and travel documents (the
"Excuse Me, Meester?" ploy).

There's a _reason_ pistols are considered to be self-defence weapons of
last resort by most militaries, however entertaining they are to shoot
for sport and even to train with.

If you expected to fight, you should have brought a rifle: US helicopter
pilots in Desert Storm and Somalia fully grasped that concept (the USMC
have complained about a AH-1 modification, because they stored two M-16s
on the inner door of the ammunition bay in case they were forced down
and the modification precluded that... the Marines understood full well
that if you're being pursued by angry men with rifles, a rifle of your
own will at least slow the pursuit down in a way a pistol never can)

>For europe, everything is "blurred"

Less so than you might think.

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

[Bjørnar Bolsøy]

Alan Minyard > wrote in
:
> On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 01:09:56 GMT, "Bjørnar Bolsøy"
> > wrote:

>> Which particular european nations and medical care system
>> are you refering to?
>>
>>
>> Regards...
>
> All of them. They are decades behind the US Medical Care
> system.

Well, how exactly?



Regards...

[Marcus Andersson]

Alan Minyard > wrote in message >...
> On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 08:04:26 GMT, "Bjørnar" > wrote:
>
> (Marcus Andersson) wrote in
> om:
> >> Alan Minyard > wrote in message
> >> >...
> >>> On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 13:19:22 GMT, Fred J. McCall
> >>> > wrote:
>
> >>> >Well, odds of getting 'gunned down' here aren't significantly higher
> >>> >than they are in Britain, if one starts off with the assumption that
> >>> >one isn't a gang banger. Stay out of really bad neighborhoods and
> >>> >avoid egregiously stupid behaviour like trying to frighten and
> >>> >ignoring the warnings of armed people in their own homes and your
> >>> >odds are much greater of slipping and falling to death in the
> >>> >bathtub than they are of being 'gunned down'.
> >>>
> >>> Not to mention the fact that I can, and would, shoot back!!!!!!!
> >>
> >>
> >> If you ever tried shooting back after you've been shot dead, you'd
> >> notice that it isn't that easy.
> >
> > In war-time you would shoot first and ask later if your're not
> > 100% certain.
> >
> > For some, though, the issue is blurred.
> >
> I am a very qualified pistol shot, trained in combat shooting.
> Shooting me "dead" from anything other than an ambush
> would be rather difficult.
> Al Minyard

What if the bloke who intends to shoot you is as qualified as you? Or
even more qualified?
You should know that the worst mistake one can do is to underestimate
ones enemy...

[Alan Minyard]

On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 20:39:30 +0000, "Paul J. Adam" > wrote:

>In message >, Alan Minyard
> writes
>>On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 01:09:56 GMT, "Bjørnar Bolsøy" <bbolsoy@
>>nospam.nospam> wrote:
>>> Which particular european nations and medical care system
>>> are you refering to?
>
>>All of them. They are decades behind the US Medical Care
>>system.
>
>Provided you're adequately insured, US healthcare is by all accounts
>very good.
>
>One great benefit of living in the UK is that I don't have to worry
>about my insurers causing me harm to save money, or refusing to cover my
>treatment.

We have laws (particularly one called COBRA) that prevents any hospital
from refusing treatment on the basis of ability to pay. The vast majority of
hospitals in the US write off millions of dollars a year as uncollectable
debts.

Al Minyard

[Alan Minyard]

On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 20:49:56 +0000, "Paul J. Adam" > wrote:

>In message >, Alan Minyard
> writes
>>On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 08:04:26 GMT, "Bjørnar" > wrote:
>>> In war-time you would shoot first and ask later if your're not
>>> 100% certain.
>>>
>>> For some, though, the issue is blurred.
>>>
>>I am a very qualified pistol shot, trained in combat shooting.
>>Shooting me "dead" from anything other than an ambush
>>would be rather difficult.
>
>Dreadfully easy, Al. I match your pistol and raise you a section of
>troops with scoped rifles and support weapons, and the firefight starts
>at two hundred yards. I'll even let you fire first. (If it's wartime
>then "fighting fair" is for the survivors on the losing side to console
>themselves with)

No one said anything about war or troops. If you want to go to a
war scenario I really do not think that you would want to mess
with the US
>
>
>The way to kill an alert armed man is to deceive rather than to
>outshoot. Don't leap out, wild-eyed and frantic, shouting "Die, American
>pig-dog-scum!"; but (for example) man a tidy, disciplined vehicle check
>point and politely ask to see identification and travel documents (the
>"Excuse Me, Meester?" ploy).
>
Not how street thugs operate.

>There's a _reason_ pistols are considered to be self-defence weapons of
>last resort by most militaries, however entertaining they are to shoot
>for sport and even to train with.

Of course, especially the nearly useless 9mm rounds. I carry a .45
Colt. I also have several rifles that will greatly out shoot the 5,6mm.
>
>If you expected to fight, you should have brought a rifle: US helicopter
>pilots in Desert Storm and Somalia fully grasped that concept (the USMC
>have complained about a AH-1 modification, because they stored two M-16s
>on the inner door of the ammunition bay in case they were forced down
>and the modification precluded that... the Marines understood full well
>that if you're being pursued by angry men with rifles, a rifle of your
>own will at least slow the pursuit down in a way a pistol never can)

Once again, we were (at least I thought we were) discussing crime, not
war.
>
>>For europe, everything is "blurred"
>
>Less so than you might think.

Al Minyard

[Alan Minyard]

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 23:17:34 GMT, "Bjørnar Bolsøy" > wrote:

>Alan Minyard > wrote in
:
>> On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 01:09:56 GMT, "Bjørnar Bolsøy"
>> > wrote:
>
>>> Which particular european nations and medical care system
>>> are you refering to?
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards...
>>
>> All of them. They are decades behind the US Medical Care
>> system.
>
> Well, how exactly?
>
>
>
> Regards...

They do not have the requisite number of MRIs CTs etc.
They do not have adequate ambulance services (I am
talking about the equipment, not the Paramedics). They
still have hospitals with open wards (nearly all of the hospitals
in the US are private rooms only). It is a matter of adequate
resources, research, surgical techniques etc. It is not an
accident the twins co-joined at the head/brain come
to the US from all over the world to be separated (at
no cost to the parents).

Al Minyard

[Chad Irby]

In article >,
Alan Minyard > wrote:

> "Bjørnar Bolsøy" > wrote:
>
> >Alan Minyard > wrote:
>
> >> All of them. They are decades behind the US Medical Care
> >> system.
> >
> > Well, how exactly?
>
> They do not have the requisite number of MRIs CTs etc.

For example, there are supposedly more MRI machines in Orlando, Florida
than there are in all of England - the place they were invented.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

[tadaa]

> They do not have the requisite number of MRIs CTs etc.
> They do not have adequate ambulance services (I am
> talking about the equipment, not the Paramedics). They
> still have hospitals with open wards (nearly all of the hospitals
> in the US are private rooms only). It is a matter of adequate
> resources, research, surgical techniques etc. It is not an
> accident the twins co-joined at the head/brain come
> to the US from all over the world to be separated (at
> no cost to the parents).

It would be interesting to see some actual figures of the efficiency of
medical systems around the world.

[Julian Barker]

In message >, Marcus
Andersson > writes
>"NEMO ME IMPUNE" > wrote in message
>...
>> How many Aircraft carriers in Finland?
>
>
>(since when does this thread have anything to do with aircraft
>carriers? Besides, I don't have a clue what this thread has to do in
>the rec.aviation.military group.)
>
>That being said, Finland does have around 60 F-18 Hornets, so I guess
>they must have a couple of aircraft carriers too. I mean, why else
>would they have carrier-planes?


It is worth bearing in mind that Finland has a smaller population than
several US cities, and how many of them can boast that sort of defence?

--
Julian Barker

"Many battles have been fought and won by
soldiers nourished on beer,and the King does not
believe that coffee-drinking soldiers can be
relied upon to endure hardships in case of
another war."
Frederick the Great, 1777

[Bjørnar Bolsøy]

Alan Minyard > wrote in
:
> On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 23:17:34 GMT, "Bjørnar Bolsøy"
> > wrote:
>>Alan Minyard > wrote in
:
>>> On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 01:09:56 GMT, "Bjørnar Bolsøy"
>>> > wrote:
>>
>>>> Which particular european nations and medical care system
>>>> are you refering to?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards...
>>>
>>> All of them. They are decades behind the US Medical Care
>>> system.
>>
>> Well, how exactly?
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards...
>
> They do not have the requisite number of MRIs CTs etc.
> They do not have adequate ambulance services (I am
> talking about the equipment, not the Paramedics). They
> still have hospitals with open wards (nearly all of the
> hospitals in the US are private rooms only).

Are these personal assertions, or what sources you
base these numbers on? What does this say about
a countrys health service in general? There are
other factors involved.


> It is a matter of
> adequate resources, research, surgical techniques etc. It is not
> an accident the twins co-joined at the head/brain come
> to the US from all over the world to be separated (at
> no cost to the parents).
>
> Al Minyard

Well, I guess some of this is true, but Europe is about
40 nations with a great deal of variation in both
quality, high-tech gadgetory and service. It seems to
me you treat Europe as a one common unity, which to
me seems at least as silly (pardon the french) as treating
the US as one great state with common laws and practise.

Many European countries have a fully modern health service,
not at least free medical care for everyone (like here
in Norway).



Regards...

[Pete]

"Bjørnar Bolsøy" > wrote
> Many European countries have a fully modern health service,
> not at least free medical care for everyone (like here
> in Norway).
>

Unless hospitals spring up out of thin air, and doctors and nurses work
gratis, there is no *free*.

The payment you make is merely called something different.

Pete

[Bjørnar Bolsøy]

"Pete" > wrote in
:
> "Bjørnar Bolsøy" > wrote

>> Many European countries have a fully modern health service,
>> not at least free medical care for everyone (like here
>> in Norway).
>>
>
> Unless hospitals spring up out of thin air, and doctors and
> nurses work gratis, there is no *free*.
>
> The payment you make is merely called something different.

The crucial difference is that it's baked into the
normal taxes and that medicare is given to anyone
whom needs it, nomatter what taxpaying status.

It means if you have an accident, you don't have
to worry.

In many cases you will also get a social refund if you
have direct expenses connected with treatment, for
instance for medicine or physioteraphy treatment due to
an overstrained back or arm.

If the hospital can't treat you, you're transfered to
one that can. In some cases even overseas.

One negative effect, of course, is capasity, the waiting
queues can be long for certain kinds of treatment.
Typically the more severe ones which require complex
treatment. But private clinics are of course an
alternative too.


Regards...

[[email protected]]

"Bjørnar Bolsøy" > wrote:

>"Pete" > wrote in
:
>> "Bjørnar Bolsøy" > wrote
>
>>> Many European countries have a fully modern health service,
>>> not at least free medical care for everyone (like here
>>> in Norway).
>>>
>>
>> Unless hospitals spring up out of thin air, and doctors and
>> nurses work gratis, there is no *free*.
>>
>> The payment you make is merely called something different.
>
> The crucial difference is that it's baked into the
> normal taxes and that medicare is given to anyone
> whom needs it, nomatter what taxpaying status.
>
> It means if you have an accident, you don't have
> to worry.
>
> In many cases you will also get a social refund if you
> have direct expenses connected with treatment, for
> instance for medicine or physioteraphy treatment due to
> an overstrained back or arm.
>
> If the hospital can't treat you, you're transfered to
> one that can. In some cases even overseas.
>
> One negative effect, of course, is capasity, the waiting
> queues can be long for certain kinds of treatment.
> Typically the more severe ones which require complex
> treatment. But private clinics are of course an
> alternative too.
>
>
> Regards...

Sounds like Canada's system...
--

-Gord.