Help interpreting an approach chart (KCCR LDA Rwy 19R)

[Terence Wilson]

http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0711/05320LDA19R.PDF

Suppose I am approaching the KANAN NDB IAF from the south, maintaining
2500', which nav aid do I use to track 001 deg outbound? When I first
looked at the chart I assumed it would be the CCR VOR 001 radial, but
on closer examination it looks like I should be tracking from the
KANAN NDB.

Thanks in advance.

[Doug Carter]

On 2007-11-02, Terence Wilson > wrote:
> http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0711/05320LDA19R.PDF
>
> Suppose I am approaching the KANAN NDB IAF from the south, maintaining
> 2500', which nav aid do I use to track 001 deg outbound?

The localizer I-CCR on 108.5

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Terence Wilson" > wrote in message
...
> http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0711/05320LDA19R.PDF
>
> Suppose I am approaching the KANAN NDB IAF from the south, maintaining
> 2500', which nav aid do I use to track 001 deg outbound? When I first
> looked at the chart I assumed it would be the CCR VOR 001 radial, but
> on closer examination it looks like I should be tracking from the
> KANAN NDB.
>

I'd use the localizer.

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Terence Wilson wrote:
> http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0711/05320LDA19R.PDF
>
> Suppose I am approaching the KANAN NDB IAF from the south, maintaining
> 2500', which nav aid do I use to track 001 deg outbound?

I would use the localizer, just as I would inbound to the airport.

Don't forget the reverse sensing.

[[email protected]]

Use anything you want, including a ham sandwich.



On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 19:35:21 -0700, Terence Wilson >
wrote:

>http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0711/05320LDA19R.PDF
>
>Suppose I am approaching the KANAN NDB IAF from the south, maintaining
>2500', which nav aid do I use to track 001 deg outbound? When I first
>looked at the chart I assumed it would be the CCR VOR 001 radial, but
>on closer examination it looks like I should be tracking from the
>KANAN NDB.
>
>Thanks in advance.

[Bee[_2_]]

Terence Wilson wrote:
> http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0711/05320LDA19R.PDF
>
> Suppose I am approaching the KANAN NDB IAF from the south, maintaining
> 2500', which nav aid do I use to track 001 deg outbound? When I first
> looked at the chart I assumed it would be the CCR VOR 001 radial, but
> on closer examination it looks like I should be tracking from the
> KANAN NDB.
>
> Thanks in advance.

The localizer outbound. The chart would make it clear if some other nav
aid were to be used outbound.

Example ILS at Knoxbille, requires VOR outbound:

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0711/00218IL23R.PDF

[Marco Leon]

"Terence Wilson" > wrote in message
...
> http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0711/05320LDA19R.PDF
>
> Suppose I am approaching the KANAN NDB IAF from the south, maintaining
> 2500', which nav aid do I use to track 001 deg outbound? When I first
> looked at the chart I assumed it would be the CCR VOR 001 radial, but
> on closer examination it looks like I should be tracking from the
> KANAN NDB.

I would use the localizer. That said, there a couple of things that are
confusing. CCR looks like it's depicted as a bit west of the localizer. I'm
assuming it is to scale since it is within the plan view's circle. However,
JOANS intersection is on the localizer but it is identified as being 8.1
miles on the DME from CCR. Usually when an intersection is identified using
an off route VOR, there's some sort of reference line that is thinner than
the route. Either the VOR *is* on the localizer or it's too close to the
localizer for a separate line depiction.

Marco

[Bee[_2_]]

Marco Leon wrote:
> "Terence Wilson" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0711/05320LDA19R.PDF
>>
>>Suppose I am approaching the KANAN NDB IAF from the south, maintaining
>>2500', which nav aid do I use to track 001 deg outbound? When I first
>>looked at the chart I assumed it would be the CCR VOR 001 radial, but
>>on closer examination it looks like I should be tracking from the
>>KANAN NDB.
>
>
> I would use the localizer. That said, there a couple of things that are
> confusing. CCR looks like it's depicted as a bit west of the localizer. I'm
> assuming it is to scale since it is within the plan view's circle. However,
> JOANS intersection is on the localizer but it is identified as being 8.1
> miles on the DME from CCR. Usually when an intersection is identified using
> an off route VOR, there's some sort of reference line that is thinner than
> the route. Either the VOR *is* on the localizer or it's too close to the
> localizer for a separate line depiction.
>
> Marco
>
>
>
COLLI and REJOY via JOANS are the only authorized non-radar transitions
to this AIP. From the north it is VOR to LOC, from COLLI it is NDB to
KANAN.

[Dane Spearing]

In article >,
> wrote:
>
>Use anything you want, including a ham sandwich.

I tried keeping one of those in my flight bag as a backup, but it got
really really stinky after a few days.

-- Dane

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Marco Leon" > wrote in message
...
>
> I would use the localizer. That said, there a couple of things that are
> confusing. CCR looks like it's depicted as a bit west of the localizer.
> I'm assuming it is to scale since it is within the plan view's circle.
> However, JOANS intersection is on the localizer but it is identified as
> being 8.1 miles on the DME from CCR. Usually when an intersection is
> identified using an off route VOR, there's some sort of reference line
> that is thinner than the route.

JOANS intersection IS identified in that manner, the 074 radial of SGD. No
similar line is drawn from CCR because no CCR radial is used to define JOANS
on this IAP.


>
> Either the VOR *is* on the localizer or it's too close to the localizer
> for a separate line depiction.
>

CCR is 0.56 NM from KANAN on a true bearing of 261. The VOR is not on the
localizer.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Bee" > wrote in message ...
>
> COLLI and REJOY via JOANS are the only authorized non-radar transitions to
> this AIP. From the north it is VOR to LOC, from COLLI it is NDB to KANAN.
>

What VOR to the LOC? What's the length of the NDB to KANAN segment?

There are no doubt several additional suitable non-radar routes available.
Non-radar routes don't need to be "authorized", they simply need to meet
applicable criteria.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Dane Spearing" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> > wrote:
>>
>>Use anything you want, including a ham sandwich.
>>
>
> I tried keeping one of those in my flight bag as a backup, but it got
> really really stinky after a few days.
>

You're lucky it wasn't tuna.

[Bee[_2_]]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Bee" > wrote in message ...
>
>>COLLI and REJOY via JOANS are the only authorized non-radar transitions to
>>this AIP. From the north it is VOR to LOC, from COLLI it is NDB to KANAN.
>>
>
>
> What VOR to the LOC? What's the length of the NDB to KANAN segment?

Is this a chart clinic?

JOANS is identified by the SGD 074 and the CCR 004. From there inbound
the course is prescribed by the locaizer.

KANAN is the five letter identifier for the NDB, but you knew that.

"No doubt there are serveral assition suitable non-radar routes available?"

Oh really, where would we find those?

The IAP has to begin without radar at either REJOY or COLLI. Now, if
you mean something else is "suitable," as opposed to meeting the
requirements of FAA directives, including 7110.65R, then "suitable"
would equal "roll your own."
>
> There are no doubt several additional suitable non-radar routes available.
> Non-radar routes don't need to be "authorized", they simply need to meet
> applicable criteria.
>
>

[Bee[_2_]]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> "Marco Leon" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I would use the localizer. That said, there a couple of things that are
>>confusing. CCR looks like it's depicted as a bit west of the localizer.
>>I'm assuming it is to scale since it is within the plan view's circle.
>>However, JOANS intersection is on the localizer but it is identified as
>>being 8.1 miles on the DME from CCR. Usually when an intersection is
>>identified using an off route VOR, there's some sort of reference line
>>that is thinner than the route.
>
>
> JOANS intersection IS identified in that manner, the 074 radial of SGD. No
> similar line is drawn from CCR because no CCR radial is used to define JOANS
> on this IAP.

Incorrect.
>
>
>
>>Either the VOR *is* on the localizer or it's too close to the localizer
>>for a separate line depiction.
>>
>
>
> CCR is 0.56 NM from KANAN on a true bearing of 261. The VOR is not on the
> localizer.
>
>

[John Godwin]

Bee > wrote in :

> Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
>> JOANS intersection IS identified in that manner, the 074 radial
>> of SGD. No similar line is drawn from CCR because no CCR radial
>> is used to define JOANS on this IAP.
>
> Incorrect.

No, Steven is correct. The CCR VOR-DME is NOT on the LDA Localizer.
The DME portion, however, may be used to define JOANS at 8.1 DME (in
lieu of the 074 SGD radial).

--

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Bee" > wrote in message ...
>
> JOANS is identified by the SGD 074 and the CCR 004. From there inbound
> the course is prescribed by the locaizer.
>

Incorrect. JOANS is identified on this IAP in two ways; the SGD 074R and
the LOC, the LOC and CCR 8.1 DME. The CCR 004R is not depicted.


>
> KANAN is the five letter identifier for the NDB, but you knew that.
>

Of course I did. Did you? You wrote, "...from COLLI it is NDB to KANAN."
So what's the length of that NDB to KANAN segment?


>
> "No doubt there are serveral assition suitable non-radar routes
> available?"
>
> Oh really, where would we find those?
>

IFR enroute low altitude charts L-2 and L-3.


>
> The IAP has to begin without radar at either REJOY or COLLI. Now, if you
> mean something else is "suitable," as opposed to meeting the requirements
> of FAA directives, including 7110.65R, then "suitable" would equal "roll
> your own.
>

Incorrect. Without radar an appropriate nonradar route to an IAF must be
assigned. From the northeast, V6 to REJOY is the way to go. From the south
V6 to COLLI and then direct to KANAN is fine, but so is any other route to
KANAN from another navaid that remains within navaid altitude and distance
limitations. For example, traffic from the northwest could be assigned V108
to SGD and then direct to KANAN. The distance between SGD and KANAN is 18
miles, well within limits.

The limit on the LOM is 15 miles, so any airway fix within 15 miles of KANAN
can provide a usable route. At and below 12,000 MSL an L or H class VOR is
good for 40 miles and a T class VOR is good for 25 miles. So any direct
route to KANAN from an L or H class VOR within 55 miles of it is within
limits, and any direct route to KANAN from a T class VOR within 40 miles of
it is within limits, assuming there are no service limitations on the
affected radials. If you examine the charts and use a bit of imagination
you will no doubt find several additional suitable non-radar routes.


http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/ATC/Chp4/atc0401.html

http://skyvector.com/

http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0711/05320LDA19R.PDF

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Bee" > wrote in message ...
>>
>> JOANS intersection IS identified in that manner, the 074 radial of SGD.
>> No similar line is drawn from CCR because no CCR radial is used to define
>> JOANS on this IAP.
>>
>
> Incorrect.
>

How so?

[Ron Natalie]

Bee wrote:

> COLLI and REJOY via JOANS are the only authorized non-radar transitions
> to this AIP.

REJOY isn't a transition, it's an IAF. You can't to from COLLI to
JOANS (if that is what you are attempting to say). The COLLI
transition sends you to the KANAN (LOM)

> From the north it is VOR to LOC, from COLLI it is NDB to
> KANAN.

WHAT? You can start at REJOY or you can start at KANAN.
You can't start at the CONCORD VOR and joint he localizer.

[John Godwin[_2_]]

Bee > wrote in :

> JOANS is identified by the SGD 074 and the CCR 004. From there
> inbound the course is prescribed by the locaizer.

Where is it charted that JOANS is defined by the CCR 004?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"John Godwin" > wrote in message
...
>
> No, Steven is correct. The CCR VOR-DME is NOT on the LDA Localizer.
> The DME portion, however, may be used to define JOANS at 8.1 DME (in
> lieu of the 074 SGD radial).
>

True, but you're going to be using the SGD 074R anyway if you're using the
REJOY IAF. Using CCR DME to also define JOANS doesn't seem particularly
useful. DME from SGD would be better as it would provide distance and time
to JOANS.

[Sam Spade]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Bee" > wrote in message ...
>
>>JOANS is identified by the SGD 074 and the CCR 004. From there inbound
>>the course is prescribed by the locaizer.
>>
>
>
> Incorrect. JOANS is identified on this IAP in two ways; the SGD 074R and
> the LOC, the LOC and CCR 8.1 DME. The CCR 004R is not depicted.
>
Well, I use Jeppesen charts an the CCR 004 radial is on there. It was
ommitted from the NACO chart in error and will be correct on the 12/20
chart cycle.
>
>
>>KANAN is the five letter identifier for the NDB, but you knew that.
>>
>
>
> Of course I did. Did you? You wrote, "...from COLLI it is NDB to KANAN."
> So what's the length of that NDB to KANAN segment?

NDB navigation.
>
>
>
>>"No doubt there are serveral assition suitable non-radar routes
>>available?"
>>
>>Oh really, where would we find those?
>>
>
>
> IFR enroute low altitude charts L-2 and L-3.
>
>
>
>>The IAP has to begin without radar at either REJOY or COLLI. Now, if you
>>mean something else is "suitable," as opposed to meeting the requirements
>>of FAA directives, including 7110.65R, then "suitable" would equal "roll
>>your own.
>>
>
>
> Incorrect. Without radar an appropriate nonradar route to an IAF must be
> assigned. From the northeast, V6 to REJOY is the way to go. From the south
> V6 to COLLI and then direct to KANAN is fine, but so is any other route to
> KANAN from another navaid that remains within navaid altitude and distance
> limitations. For example, traffic from the northwest could be assigned V108
> to SGD and then direct to KANAN. The distance between SGD and KANAN is 18
> miles, well within limits.
>
> The limit on the LOM is 15 miles, so any airway fix within 15 miles of KANAN
> can provide a usable route. At and below 12,000 MSL an L or H class VOR is
> good for 40 miles and a T class VOR is good for 25 miles. So any direct
> route to KANAN from an L or H class VOR within 55 miles of it is within
> limits, and any direct route to KANAN from a T class VOR within 40 miles of
> it is within limits, assuming there are no service limitations on the
> affected radials. If you examine the charts and use a bit of imagination
> you will no doubt find several additional suitable non-radar routes.
>
>
> http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/ATC/Chp4/atc0401.html
>
> http://skyvector.com/
>
> http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0711/05320LDA19R.PDF
>
>

[Sam Spade]

John Godwin wrote:

> Bee > wrote in :
>
>
>>JOANS is identified by the SGD 074 and the CCR 004. From there
>>inbound the course is prescribed by the locaizer.
>
>
> Where is it charted that JOANS is defined by the CCR 004?
>
On the Jeppesen chart for this IAP. NACO screwed up and will correct it
on the 12/20 chart cycle.

[Sam Spade]

Ron Natalie wrote:

> Bee wrote:
>
>> COLLI and REJOY via JOANS are the only authorized non-radar
>> transitions to this AIP.
>
>
> REJOY isn't a transition, it's an IAF. You can't to from COLLI to
> JOANS (if that is what you are attempting to say). The COLLI
> transition sends you to the KANAN (LOM)
>
>> From the north it is VOR to LOC, from COLLI it is NDB to KANAN.
>
>
> WHAT? You can start at REJOY or you can start at KANAN.
> You can't start at the CONCORD VOR and joint he localizer.
>
You didn't understand me or I didn't make it clear. The transition from
the north begins at REJOY, then via JOANS and the LOC NoPT.

From the south it charts at COLLI feeder fix and proceeds via NDB
navigation to KANAN.

Steve is technically correct that the IAP could begin at KANAN NDB, but
I doubt NorCal would ever do that. The only feasible routing would be
V-108 from the west to CCR, then direct KANAN. That would require ADF
equipment just as would the feeder route from COLLI. ADF isn't required
for this procedure, so for the non-ADF aircraft the only non-radar entry
is viar REJOY.

[Sam Spade]

John Godwin wrote:

> Bee > wrote in :
>
>
>>Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
>>
>>>JOANS intersection IS identified in that manner, the 074 radial
>>>of SGD. No similar line is drawn from CCR because no CCR radial
>>>is used to define JOANS on this IAP.
>>
>>Incorrect.
>
>
> No, Steven is correct. The CCR VOR-DME is NOT on the LDA Localizer.
> The DME portion, however, may be used to define JOANS at 8.1 DME (in
> lieu of the 074 SGD radial).
>
You got to jet Jepps, that have less errors than NACO charts.

[Sam Spade]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> "John Godwin" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>No, Steven is correct. The CCR VOR-DME is NOT on the LDA Localizer.
>>The DME portion, however, may be used to define JOANS at 8.1 DME (in
>>lieu of the 074 SGD radial).
>>
>
>
> True, but you're going to be using the SGD 074R anyway if you're using the
> REJOY IAF. Using CCR DME to also define JOANS doesn't seem particularly
> useful. DME from SGD would be better as it would provide distance and time
> to JOANS.
>
>
The legal method of identifying JOANNS is the SGD 074 and the CCR 006.
The DME is charted but useless for fix identification because of the
angle. Some piloting/interpretive skills are presumed by the FAA designers.

[Sam Spade]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> "Bee" > wrote in message ...
>
>>>JOANS intersection IS identified in that manner, the 074 radial of SGD.
>>>No similar line is drawn from CCR because no CCR radial is used to define
>>>JOANS on this IAP.
>>>
>>
>>Incorrect.
>>
>
>
> How so?
>
>
>
NACO failed to properly chart the JOANS 8260-2. As a result of this
thread that was brought to the attention of AVN, and NACO has been
directed to correct the chart.

[Sam Spade]

Sam Spade wrote:
> Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
>
>> "Bee" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>> JOANS intersection IS identified in that manner, the 074 radial of SGD.
>>>> No similar line is drawn from CCR because no CCR radial is used to
>>>> define
>>>> JOANS on this IAP.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Incorrect.
>>>
>>
>>
>> How so?
>>
>>
>>
> NACO failed to properly chart the JOANS 8260-2. As a result of this
> thread that was brought to the attention of AVN, and NACO has been
> directed to correct the chart.

As a result of this newsgroup, the FAA has issued the following NPRM:

FAA NPRM
NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULEMAKING (NPRM)
Part 69, Section 007 (a) 1(c)

Section I - No pilot or pilots, or person or persons
acting on the direction or suggestion or supervision
of a pilot or pilots may try, or attempt to try or
make, or make attempt to try to comprehend or
understand any or all, in whole or in part of the
herein mentioned Aviation Regulations, except as
authorized by the Administrator or an agent appointed
by, or inspected by, the Administrator.

Section II - If a pilot, or group of associate pilots
becomes aware of, or realizes, or detects, or
discovers, or finds that he or she, or they, are or
have been beginning to understand the Aviation
Regulations, they must immediately, within three (3)
days notify, in writing, the Administrator.

Section III - Upon receipt of the above-mentioned
notice of impending comprehension, the Administrator
shall immediately rewrite the Aviation Regulations in
such a manner as to eliminate any further
comprehension hazards.

Section IV - The Administrator may, at his or her
discretion, require the offending pilot or pilots to
attend remedial instruction in Aviation Regulations
until such time that the pilot is too confused to be
capable of understanding anything.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Sam Spade" > wrote in message
...
>
> Well, I use Jeppesen charts an the CCR 004 radial is on there. It was
> ommitted from the NACO chart in error and will be correct on the 12/20
> chart cycle.
>

It was the NACO chart that was referenced in the OP. Omitting it seems like
a good idea, what purpose does it serve?


>
> NDB navigation.
>

What about it?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Sam Spade" > wrote in message
...
>
> The legal method of identifying JOANNS is the SGD 074 and the CCR 006. The
> DME is charted but useless for fix identification because of the angle.
> Some piloting/interpretive skills are presumed by the FAA designers.
>

JOANS is identified by the intersection of the SGD 074R and the LOC.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Sam Spade" > wrote in message
...
>
> Steve is technically correct that the IAP could begin at KANAN NDB, but I
> doubt NorCal would ever do that.
>

It COULD begin at KANAN? KANAN is an IAF, do you know what an IAF is?


>
> The only feasible routing would be V-108
> from the west to CCR, then direct KANAN. That would require ADF equipment
> just as would the feeder route from COLLI. ADF isn't required for this
> procedure, so for the non-ADF aircraft the only non-radar entry is viar
> REJOY.
>

There are several feasible routes, as I explained in an earlier message.

[Sam Spade]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Sam Spade" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Well, I use Jeppesen charts an the CCR 004 radial is on there. It was
>>ommitted from the NACO chart in error and will be correct on the 12/20
>>chart cycle.
>>
>
>
> It was the NACO chart that was referenced in the OP. Omitting it seems like
> a good idea, what purpose does it serve?
>
>
>
>>NDB navigation.
>>
>
>
> What about it?
>
>
It is self-explanatory. Sorry if you don't understand.

[Sam Spade]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Sam Spade" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Steve is technically correct that the IAP could begin at KANAN NDB, but I
>>doubt NorCal would ever do that.
>>
>
>
> It COULD begin at KANAN? KANAN is an IAF, do you know what an IAF is?
>
>
>
>>The only feasible routing would be V-108
>>from the west to CCR, then direct KANAN. That would require ADF equipment
>>just as would the feeder route from COLLI. ADF isn't required for this
>>procedure, so for the non-ADF aircraft the only non-radar entry is viar
>>REJOY.
>>
>
>
> There are several feasible routes, as I explained in an earlier message.
>
>
That is your opinion in the abstract. You are not qualified at NorCal.

[Sam Spade]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> "Sam Spade" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>The legal method of identifying JOANNS is the SGD 074 and the CCR 006. The
>>DME is charted but useless for fix identification because of the angle.
>>Some piloting/interpretive skills are presumed by the FAA designers.
>>
>
>
> JOANS is identified by the intersection of the SGD 074R and the LOC.
>
>
That is one way but not the only acceptable way. The DME is not acceptable.

You should look at the charts that get this stuff right most of the time.

Or, with your inside connections, get a copy of the JOANS 8260-2

The source document states:

Fac 1 is the localizer, Fac 2
is CCR VOR, Fac 3 is SGD VORTAC, and Fac 4 is the LOM.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Sam Spade" > wrote in message
...
>
> It is self-explanatory. Sorry if you don't understand.
>

If it was self-explanatory I wouldn't have had to ask the question.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Sam Spade" > wrote in message
...
>
> That is your opinion in the abstract.

It is not an opinion.


>
> You are not qualified at NorCal.
>

Irrelevant, and Travis serves CCR.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Sam Spade" > wrote in message
...
>
> That is one way but not the only acceptable way.

It's the only way necessary.

[Greg Esres[_2_]]

Sam Spade wrote:

<<The DME is charted but useless for fix identification because of
the angle. Some piloting/interpretive skills are presumed by the FAA
designers.- >>

I don't understand this. If you're on the localizer and have the CCR
8.1, there is only one place you can be. Why is this a useless means
of fix identification?