This Veteran's Day...

[ArtKramr]

On this Veteran's Day think once more of our absent friends who will sleep
forever in foreign soil.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Les Matheson]

Art, I think this day is to say thank you for guys like you who made it
back. We have Memorial Day to remember the others.
-
Les
F-4C(WW),D,E,G(WW)/AC-130A/MC-130E EWO (ret)


"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> On this Veteran's Day think once more of our absent friends who will
sleep
> forever in foreign soil.
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

[John Mullen]

"Les Matheson" > wrote in message
news:XkUrb.17328$In3.5623@lakeread01...
> Art, I think this day is to say thank you for guys like you who made it
> back. We have Memorial Day to remember the others.
> -
> Les
> F-4C(WW),D,E,G(WW)/AC-130A/MC-130E EWO (ret)

Hear hear.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/0,7371,337484,00.html

John

[Andrew Chaplin]

John Mullen wrote:
>
> "Les Matheson" > wrote in message
> news:XkUrb.17328$In3.5623@lakeread01...
> > Art, I think this day is to say thank you for guys like you who made it
> > back. We have Memorial Day to remember the others.
>
> Hear hear.
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/0,7371,337484,00.html

Yikes! That's unkind, even if apposite.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

[John Penta]

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 22:47:13 GMT, Andrew Chaplin
> wrote:

>John Mullen wrote:
>>
>> "Les Matheson" > wrote in message
>> news:XkUrb.17328$In3.5623@lakeread01...
>> > Art, I think this day is to say thank you for guys like you who made it
>> > back. We have Memorial Day to remember the others.
>>
>> Hear hear.
>>
>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/0,7371,337484,00.html
>
>Yikes! That's unkind, even if apposite.

Much agreement. Very unkind.

Nonetheless, anyone know where I could find the original words to
that?

(Where did it get so famous, either? I remember hearing "Lest We
Forget" a lot around 11/11...But have never understood why. Yeah, I'm
young.)

John

[Peter Twydell]

In article >, John Penta
> writes
>On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 22:47:13 GMT, Andrew Chaplin
> wrote:
>
>>John Mullen wrote:
>>>
>>> "Les Matheson" > wrote in message
>>> news:XkUrb.17328$In3.5623@lakeread01...
>>> > Art, I think this day is to say thank you for guys like you who made it
>>> > back. We have Memorial Day to remember the others.
>>>
>>> Hear hear.
>>>
>>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/0,7371,337484,00.html
>>
>>Yikes! That's unkind, even if apposite.
>
>Much agreement. Very unkind.
>
The pop-up burger ad makes it even more tasteless.

>Nonetheless, anyone know where I could find the original words to
>that?
>
>(Where did it get so famous, either? I remember hearing "Lest We
>Forget" a lot around 11/11...But have never understood why. Yeah, I'm
>young.)
>
>John

The words are from a poem by Lawrence Binyon: For the fallen

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWbinyon.htm

Remembrance Day or Armistice Day, which are the names used in the
Commonwealth (I haven't been able to discover which one is the official
name) always brings a tear to my eye, even though I never served in the
armed forces. None of my immediate family was lost in war, but I do know
people who lost friends and family in the Falklands.

Three of the remaining 26 WW1 veterans left in the UK were at the
Cenotaph on Remembrance Sunday, all of them over 100 years old.
--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

[Chris Mark]

>From: Peter Twydell

>>(Where did it get so famous, either? I remember hearing "Lest We
>>Forget" a lot around 11/11...But have never understood why.

>The words are from a poem by Lawrence Binyon: For the fallen
>
>http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWbinyon.htm
>

No, they are not, although that poem contains some memorable and oft repeated
lines.
The lines are in fact from Kipling (of course!). His "Recessional" of 1897:

God of our fathers, known of old--
Lord of our far-flung battle line--
Beneath whose awful hand we hold
Dominion over palm and pine--
lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
Lest we forget--lest we forget!

The tumult and the shouting dies--
The Captains and the Kings depart--
Still stands Thine ancient sacrifice.
An humble and a contrite heart.
Lord God of hosts, be with us yet,
Lest we forget--lest we forget!

Far-called our navies melt away--
On dune and headland sinks the fire--
Lo, all our pomp of yesterday
Is one with Nineveh and Tyre!
Judge of the Nations, spare us yet,
Lest we forget--lest we forget!

If, drunk with sight of power, we loose
Wild tongues that have not Thee in
awe--
Such boastings as the Gentiles use,
or lesser breeds without the Law--
Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
Lest we forget--lest we forget!

For heathen heart that puts her trust
in reeking tube and iron shard--
All valiant dust that builds on dust,
And guarding calls not Thee to guard.
For frantic boast and foolish word,
Thy mercy on Thy People, Lord!
Amen

As you can see the poem is really not about remembering fallen war dead, but
is, as it is subtitled, "A Victorian Ode," a warning to Britain at her height.

Binyon's poem is much more apt and fitting for Nov. 11 observances, although it
does not contain that famous "Lest we forget."


Chris Mark

[Peter Twydell]

In article >, Chris Mark
> writes
>>From: Peter Twydell
>
>>>(Where did it get so famous, either? I remember hearing "Lest We
>>>Forget" a lot around 11/11...But have never understood why.
>
>>The words are from a poem by Lawrence Binyon: For the fallen
>>
>>http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWbinyon.htm
>>
>
>No, they are not, although that poem contains some memorable and oft repeated
>lines.
>The lines are in fact from Kipling (of course!). His "Recessional" of 1897:
>
>
<snip good old Rudyard>
>
>As you can see the poem is really not about remembering fallen war dead, but
>is, as it is subtitled, "A Victorian Ode," a warning to Britain at her height.
>
>Binyon's poem is much more apt and fitting for Nov. 11 observances, although it
>does not contain that famous "Lest we forget."
>
>
>Chris Mark

My interpretation of John Penta's post was that he was asking where the
original "They shall grow not old" came from, not "Lest we forget".
--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

[Chris Mark]

>My interpretation of John Penta's post was that he was asking where the
>original "They shall grow not old" came from, not "Lest we forget".

Well, now he knows where both lines come from, so he should be a happy young
man.
People do misuse "Lest we forget" all the time, assuming it refers to fallen
comrades rather than the hubris of empire.


Chris Mark

[John Penta]

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 18:25:10 +0000, Peter Twydell
> wrote:

>My interpretation of John Penta's post was that he was asking where the
>original "They shall grow not old" came from, not "Lest we forget".

Right. But thanks to both of you nonetheless.:-)

Maybe it's intentional, maybe not, but when I read Kipling aloud, I
had Handel's "Hallelujah Chorus" from "Messiah" (I think?) going
through my head.

John

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: This Veteran's Day...
>From: (Chris Mark)
>Date: 11/12/03 2:23 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>

>People do misuse "Lest we forget" all the time, assuming it refers to fallen
>comrades rather than the hubris of empire.
>
>
>Chris Mark

we few,
we happy few,
we band of brothers

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Chris Mark]

>From: John Penta

>when I read Kipling aloud, I
>had Handel's "Hallelujah Chorus" from "Messiah" (I think?) going
>through my head.

Kipling seems apt these days. When I was flipping through my old Black's to
find "Recessional," I kept getting sidetracked, catching lines that clicked
with today's headlines and worries. "Arithmetic on the Frontier," for example,
with lines like:

A scrimmage in a Border Station--
A canter down some dark defile--
Two thousand pounds of education
Drops to a ten-rupee jezail--
....the Squadron's pride
Shot like a rabbit in a ride!

and

With home-bred hordes the hillsides
teem,
The troop-ships bring us one by one
At vast expense of time and steam,
To slay Afridis where they run.
The "captives of our bow and spear"
Are cheap--alas! as we are dear.

Abrams tanks and F-16s against technicals and command-detonated mines made of
old artillery shells. Men who fight to live against men who fight to die. Same
old same old.


Chris Mark