Joining the USAF

[jshmoe]

Hi all,

I'd like to know what your opinion is on joining the US Air Force as
an officer and going to OTS. I'm considering going as an officer in a
technical field (not as a pilot). I know about MEPS and the process
for getting into the OTS, but what I would like to know is whether or
not it is worth it? Is there any guarantee as to what position I might
be working in, or whether or not I would be shipped to the Middle East
to do some sort of work out there? Will knowing Arabic increase my
chances of admission? You know, the general sort of questions that can
be asked to a recruiter, but without a clear, honest answer. Someone
out there with experience doing same would help out a great deal
(those with technical degrees, not pilots).

Thanks,

J

[Gene Storey]

It's hard to say how a person will react. I joined the USAF as just
something to do, and it turned out I stayed for 21 years, and they
basically had to push me out the door because I was having so much
fun!

To me, there are two USAF's: 1) Ops 2) Idiots

The breed that exists in Operations are much more mission oriented,
and even a slick-sleeve is required to prove his/her worth in annual
evaluations that can result in their being booted out of the USAF, or
(horrors) being booted to maintenance or support.

Engineering officers are civilians in uniform. None of them have any
worth as a leader. I have never met a non-Ops officer who could
lead men into war. After all, that's what it is all about. We in ops,
eat, drank, and ****ed to be in the battle. I spent over 200 days TDY
every year, and it wasn't until I retired that I found out how much I
missed it. As a Captain even, you have a flight of officers who can
really provide leadership to a vast quantity of enlisted ops, and the
vermin we called non-ops. Non-ops types require leadership on an
hourly basis in battle. They are more apt to kill themselves than the
enemy.

Do it! In 4 years you will be a better man, regardless of whether you
hated every minute of it. Go to Iraq! Go to war, you will love it, and
you will be respected for it in your 40's. You may die on Route 66 in
Oklahoma, or the Death Route in Tikrit, but no one cares about
all the people who died and were maimed on Route 66.

Clue 1: You get what you put into it.

"Death may be more exciting than life" General Patton

"jshmoe" > wrote
> Hi all,
>
> I'd like to know what your opinion is on joining the US Air Force as
> an officer and going to OTS. I'm considering going as an officer in a
> technical field (not as a pilot). I know about MEPS and the process
> for getting into the OTS, but what I would like to know is whether or
> not it is worth it? Is there any guarantee as to what position I might
> be working in, or whether or not I would be shipped to the Middle East
> to do some sort of work out there? Will knowing Arabic increase my
> chances of admission? You know, the general sort of questions that can
> be asked to a recruiter, but without a clear, honest answer. Someone
> out there with experience doing same would help out a great deal
> (those with technical degrees, not pilots).
>
> Thanks,
>
> J

[Larry]

Gene said "You get what you put into it".
I agree.

All the services are like that. Make the best of it and HAVE FUN!


Larry
AECS (AW/SW/MTS)
Disabled Combat Veteran
USN Retired

20 years of Navy in my rear view mirror
and getting further away every day ;-)




"Gene Storey" > wrote in message
news:opZrb.746$6p6.327@okepread03...
> It's hard to say how a person will react. I joined the USAF as just
> something to do, and it turned out I stayed for 21 years, and they
> basically had to push me out the door because I was having so much
> fun!
>
> To me, there are two USAF's: 1) Ops 2) Idiots
>
> The breed that exists in Operations are much more mission oriented,
> and even a slick-sleeve is required to prove his/her worth in annual
> evaluations that can result in their being booted out of the USAF, or
> (horrors) being booted to maintenance or support.
>
> Engineering officers are civilians in uniform. None of them have any
> worth as a leader. I have never met a non-Ops officer who could
> lead men into war. After all, that's what it is all about. We in ops,
> eat, drank, and ****ed to be in the battle. I spent over 200 days TDY
> every year, and it wasn't until I retired that I found out how much I
> missed it. As a Captain even, you have a flight of officers who can
> really provide leadership to a vast quantity of enlisted ops, and the
> vermin we called non-ops. Non-ops types require leadership on an
> hourly basis in battle. They are more apt to kill themselves than the
> enemy.
>
> Do it! In 4 years you will be a better man, regardless of whether you
> hated every minute of it. Go to Iraq! Go to war, you will love it, and
> you will be respected for it in your 40's. You may die on Route 66 in
> Oklahoma, or the Death Route in Tikrit, but no one cares about
> all the people who died and were maimed on Route 66.
>
> Clue 1: You get what you put into it.
>
> "Death may be more exciting than life" General Patton
>
> "jshmoe" > wrote
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I'd like to know what your opinion is on joining the US Air Force as
> > an officer and going to OTS. I'm considering going as an officer in a
> > technical field (not as a pilot). I know about MEPS and the process
> > for getting into the OTS, but what I would like to know is whether or
> > not it is worth it? Is there any guarantee as to what position I might
> > be working in, or whether or not I would be shipped to the Middle East
> > to do some sort of work out there? Will knowing Arabic increase my
> > chances of admission? You know, the general sort of questions that can
> > be asked to a recruiter, but without a clear, honest answer. Someone
> > out there with experience doing same would help out a great deal
> > (those with technical degrees, not pilots).
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > J
>
>

[Juvat]

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, jshmoe
blurted out:

>I'd like to know what your opinion is on joining the US Air Force as
>an officer and going to OTS. I'm considering going as an officer in a
>technical field (not as a pilot).

Go for it...(sorry...I'm a pilot)

>Is there any guarantee as to what position I might be working in,

Guarantee? "If their lips are moving, they must be..."

>Will knowing Arabic increase my chances of admission?

I have a co-worker that is "contracting out" to the FBI and CIA for
his language skills.

>You know, the general sort of questions that can
>be asked to a recruiter, but without a clear, honest answer.

I'm sure you can appreciate that to the recruiter, you're just a
statistic, a quota.

>Someone out there with experience doing same would help out a great deal

What do you want to do?

Juvat

[Vee-One]

"Gene Storey" > wrote in message
news:opZrb.746$6p6.327@okepread03...
> It's hard to say how a person will react. I joined the USAF as just
> something to do, and it turned out I stayed for 21 years, and they
> basically had to push me out the door because I was having so much
> fun!
>
> To me, there are two USAF's: 1) Ops 2) Idiots
>

I sincerely hope that your comments are refering to "O's". Even then, some
of the maintenance officers that I've worked for put most of the
zipper-suits I've met to shame..................


> The breed that exists in Operations are much more mission oriented,
> and even a slick-sleeve is required to prove his/her worth in annual
> evaluations that can result in their being booted out of the USAF, or
> (horrors) being booted to maintenance or support.
>

What's not mission-oriented about trying to keep a fleet of aging airframes
FMC so that they can be abused on a daily basis?

> Engineering officers are civilians in uniform. None of them have any
> worth as a leader. I have never met a non-Ops officer who could
> lead men into war. After all, that's what it is all about. We in ops,
> eat, drank, and ****ed to be in the battle. I spent over 200 days TDY
> every year, and it wasn't until I retired that I found out how much I
> missed it. As a Captain even, you have a flight of officers who can
> really provide leadership to a vast quantity of enlisted ops, and the
> vermin we called non-ops. Non-ops types require leadership on an
> hourly basis in battle. They are more apt to kill themselves than the
> enemy.
>

Enlisted-ops. HA! I'll never forget the reaming that a SMSGT pro-super
gave a A1C who copped an attitude with the SSGT crew chief about the mess
they left on a jet post-flight. He went whined to his AC about it, and that
Captain tried to raise a fuss, instead of doing the right thing. That type
of leadership?

> Do it! In 4 years you will be a better man, regardless of whether you
> hated every minute of it. Go to Iraq! Go to war, you will love it, and
> you will be respected for it in your 40's. You may die on Route 66 in
> Oklahoma, or the Death Route in Tikrit, but no one cares about
> all the people who died and were maimed on Route 66.
>
> Clue 1: You get what you put into it.
>

I'll wholeheartedly agree with that. Jump at every chance to do something
new, do the jobs that nobody else seems to want, and above all, there's
nothing wrong with making mistakes, that's how you learn (as long as you
learn from them).

> "Death may be more exciting than life" General Patton
>
> "jshmoe" > wrote
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I'd like to know what your opinion is on joining the US Air Force as
> > an officer and going to OTS. I'm considering going as an officer in a
> > technical field (not as a pilot). I know about MEPS and the process
> > for getting into the OTS, but what I would like to know is whether or
> > not it is worth it? Is there any guarantee as to what position I might
> > be working in, or whether or not I would be shipped to the Middle East
> > to do some sort of work out there? Will knowing Arabic increase my
> > chances of admission? You know, the general sort of questions that can
> > be asked to a recruiter, but without a clear, honest answer. Someone
> > out there with experience doing same would help out a great deal
> > (those with technical degrees, not pilots).
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > J
>
>

(M)Sgt Peter Vierps
116 AMXS

[user]

Booted to maintenance???
Guess that gives me even more of a confused view of the Air Force!!!
Most of the Skippers I've worked for in the Navy Squadron's were
"booted" to Maintenance Officers as an 0-4. MO is a highly coveted
Department Head job. You are either the MO or Ops 'O' if you want the
#1 ranking for LCDR's period, and eventually Fleet up. Anyway,,,
In my experience with the Air Force flying 'O's, you guys never set
foot on the hangar deck and have no clue who works on your jets. You
don't even work in the same place,, you have a seperate building
called.... "132nd Flight" or something to that effect, where you
breif, then go to the 132nd Flight "clubhouse" and get your flight
gear, (do you even know who works on your gear?) Then get vanned or
bussed to your jet and sign for it from the crewchief. The only
contact you have with the enlisted people that work on your jets is
the crewchief. In the Navy, the J.O.s all have collateral ground jobs
called "division officers" where they see and work with the guys that
fix their jets and maintain their flight gear on a daily basis, in the
"hangar" (you know where the hangar is don't you?). My Div 'O's'and
eventually MO's actually "led "the people they worked with. Who in
the heck are you talking about Air Force flying officers leading?
Other Officers? Guess its a totally different world. And don't even go
there about my knowledge of leadership and enlisted. I did 18 years as
enlisted (6 as a Chief) , and 4 now as a CWO. Your comment on the Ops
'O's being more mission oriented is right on,,, but I have to agree
with VeeOne also. Each kind of has their own mission. Ops mission is
to want it all, and Maintenance is to give em what we can give em!(
and we bust our ass to do just that)


n Tue, 11 Nov 2003 00:25:08 -0500, "Vee-One" > wrote:

>
>"Gene Storey" > wrote in message
>news:opZrb.746$6p6.327@okepread03...
>> It's hard to say how a person will react. I joined the USAF as just
>> something to do, and it turned out I stayed for 21 years, and they
>> basically had to push me out the door because I was having so much
>> fun!
>>
>> To me, there are two USAF's: 1) Ops 2) Idiots
>>
>
>I sincerely hope that your comments are refering to "O's". Even then, some
>of the maintenance officers that I've worked for put most of the
>zipper-suits I've met to shame..................
>
>
>> The breed that exists in Operations are much more mission oriented,
>> and even a slick-sleeve is required to prove his/her worth in annual
>> evaluations that can result in their being booted out of the USAF, or
>> (horrors) being booted to maintenance or support.
>>
>
>What's not mission-oriented about trying to keep a fleet of aging airframes
>FMC so that they can be abused on a daily basis?
>
>> Engineering officers are civilians in uniform. None of them have any
>> worth as a leader. I have never met a non-Ops officer who could
>> lead men into war. After all, that's what it is all about. We in ops,
>> eat, drank, and ****ed to be in the battle. I spent over 200 days TDY
>> every year, and it wasn't until I retired that I found out how much I
>> missed it. As a Captain even, you have a flight of officers who can
>> really provide leadership to a vast quantity of enlisted ops, and the
>> vermin we called non-ops. Non-ops types require leadership on an
>> hourly basis in battle. They are more apt to kill themselves than the
>> enemy.
>>
>
>Enlisted-ops. HA! I'll never forget the reaming that a SMSGT pro-super
>gave a A1C who copped an attitude with the SSGT crew chief about the mess
>they left on a jet post-flight. He went whined to his AC about it, and that
>Captain tried to raise a fuss, instead of doing the right thing. That type
>of leadership?
>
>> Do it! In 4 years you will be a better man, regardless of whether you
>> hated every minute of it. Go to Iraq! Go to war, you will love it, and
>> you will be respected for it in your 40's. You may die on Route 66 in
>> Oklahoma, or the Death Route in Tikrit, but no one cares about
>> all the people who died and were maimed on Route 66.
>>
>> Clue 1: You get what you put into it.
>>
>
>I'll wholeheartedly agree with that. Jump at every chance to do something
>new, do the jobs that nobody else seems to want, and above all, there's
>nothing wrong with making mistakes, that's how you learn (as long as you
>learn from them).
>
>> "Death may be more exciting than life" General Patton
>>
>> "jshmoe" > wrote
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > I'd like to know what your opinion is on joining the US Air Force as
>> > an officer and going to OTS. I'm considering going as an officer in a
>> > technical field (not as a pilot). I know about MEPS and the process
>> > for getting into the OTS, but what I would like to know is whether or
>> > not it is worth it? Is there any guarantee as to what position I might
>> > be working in, or whether or not I would be shipped to the Middle East
>> > to do some sort of work out there? Will knowing Arabic increase my
>> > chances of admission? You know, the general sort of questions that can
>> > be asked to a recruiter, but without a clear, honest answer. Someone
>> > out there with experience doing same would help out a great deal
>> > (those with technical degrees, not pilots).
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > J
>>
>>
>
>(M)Sgt Peter Vierps
>116 AMXS
>

[BUFDRVR]

>In my experience with the Air Force flying 'O's, you guys never set
>foot on the hangar deck and have no clue who works on your jets.

Must be pre-1993 experience.

>You don't even work in the same place

Then who the hell were all those guys downstairs wearing the BDU's? Some of
them were the same crew chiefs that I "just signed the jet from". They came to
all our squadron meetings and functions too. Who the hell were they?

>do you even know who works on your gear?

Well, since I spent one year as the Life Support Officer, I was very familar,
and since they were (are) in the same squadron with me, I'd have to be a real
idiot to not know who they were even if I wasn't LSO.

>The only
>contact you have with the enlisted people that work on your jets is
>the crewchief.

And the line speacialists and the bomb loaders and every maintenance personell
outside of the back shop guys who were in a differant squadron. Now....as of 1
OCT 2002, they moved the maintenance function(except Life Support) back to its
own squadron and out of the Ops squadron, but the people still work in the same
offices, its just that they don't come to all the squadron meetings. Nearly
everyone recognizes this as a mistake.

>In the Navy

<snip>

<sarcasm on>Yeah, the Navy has some great officer-NCO or officer-enlisted
relationships <sarcasm off>

I spent a little over one month on the Theodore Roosevelt and was astonished at
the adversarial relationships between officers and non-officers. You guys may
work and live togather closer than the Air Force, but you certainly don't
respect and get along better.

>you know where the hangar is don't you?

Since thats where my squadron was located, yes I do.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Gene Storey]

"Vee-One" > wrote
>
> Enlisted-ops. HA! I'll never forget the reaming that a SMSGT pro-super
> gave a A1C who copped an attitude with the SSGT crew chief about the mess
> they left on a jet post-flight. He went whined to his AC about it, and that
> Captain tried to raise a fuss, instead of doing the right thing. That type
> of leadership?

Nope, leadership is always about doing the right thing. Ass reaming is a
particular enlisted thing, and one I never paid much attention to. I figured
they just liked screaming at each other, because they didn't have a developed
vocabulary.

When I flew heavies, the last man off the jet was the mission commander, and
he'd empty the bus if the seat belts weren't in the same position we found them
on pre-flight. God help you if he found any FOD (coke cans, wrappers, etc),
or grease-pen markings left on your equipment. But this wasn't the kind of stuff
that we were paid to do, or excel in.

[user]

Thanks for making me more smart Bufdrvr. My perception may have been a
little biased and framed due to a lack of understanding the
differences in services. Yeah most was pre 1993, Kadena, Clark,
Misawa. One experience was more recent, 2001 Cope Thunder in Eilsson
(sp?). , where ops and the flight gear clubhouse (complete with
lockers and showers) was in a totally seperate building than the
hangar and maintenance. I guess I still don't understand it, even in
your response, I'm taking it that line specialists, bomb loaders,
maintenance, flight gear, and ops are all different squadrons?
The Navy has its own leadership problems for sure. The point of my
diatribe was that I took exception to the "being booted to
maintenance" statement.

On 11 Nov 2003 13:47:25 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

>>In my experience with the Air Force flying 'O's, you guys never set
>>foot on the hangar deck and have no clue who works on your jets.
>
>Must be pre-1993 experience.
>
>>You don't even work in the same place
>
>Then who the hell were all those guys downstairs wearing the BDU's? Some of
>them were the same crew chiefs that I "just signed the jet from". They came to
>all our squadron meetings and functions too. Who the hell were they?
>
>>do you even know who works on your gear?
>
>Well, since I spent one year as the Life Support Officer, I was very familar,
>and since they were (are) in the same squadron with me, I'd have to be a real
>idiot to not know who they were even if I wasn't LSO.
>
>>The only
>>contact you have with the enlisted people that work on your jets is
>>the crewchief.
>
>And the line speacialists and the bomb loaders and every maintenance personell
>outside of the back shop guys who were in a differant squadron. Now....as of 1
>OCT 2002, they moved the maintenance function(except Life Support) back to its
>own squadron and out of the Ops squadron, but the people still work in the same
>offices, its just that they don't come to all the squadron meetings. Nearly
>everyone recognizes this as a mistake.
>
>>In the Navy
>
><snip>
>
><sarcasm on>Yeah, the Navy has some great officer-NCO or officer-enlisted
>relationships <sarcasm off>
>
>I spent a little over one month on the Theodore Roosevelt and was astonished at
>the adversarial relationships between officers and non-officers. You guys may
>work and live togather closer than the Air Force, but you certainly don't
>respect and get along better.
>
>>you know where the hangar is don't you?
>
>Since thats where my squadron was located, yes I do.
>
>
>BUFDRVR
>
>"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
>everyone on Bear Creek"

[user]

OBTW, BUFDRVR,
I have been reading in this newsgroup for a few months now, and have
just recently decided to get squirrley about posting in here. Is there
some kinda rules or FAQ's that I should read that you could point me
in the right direction to? Thanks

On 11 Nov 2003 13:47:25 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

>>In my experience with the Air Force flying 'O's, you guys never set
>>foot on the hangar deck and have no clue who works on your jets.
>
>Must be pre-1993 experience.
>
>>You don't even work in the same place
>
>Then who the hell were all those guys downstairs wearing the BDU's? Some of
>them were the same crew chiefs that I "just signed the jet from". They came to
>all our squadron meetings and functions too. Who the hell were they?
>
>>do you even know who works on your gear?
>
>Well, since I spent one year as the Life Support Officer, I was very familar,
>and since they were (are) in the same squadron with me, I'd have to be a real
>idiot to not know who they were even if I wasn't LSO.
>
>>The only
>>contact you have with the enlisted people that work on your jets is
>>the crewchief.
>
>And the line speacialists and the bomb loaders and every maintenance personell
>outside of the back shop guys who were in a differant squadron. Now....as of 1
>OCT 2002, they moved the maintenance function(except Life Support) back to its
>own squadron and out of the Ops squadron, but the people still work in the same
>offices, its just that they don't come to all the squadron meetings. Nearly
>everyone recognizes this as a mistake.
>
>>In the Navy
>
><snip>
>
><sarcasm on>Yeah, the Navy has some great officer-NCO or officer-enlisted
>relationships <sarcasm off>
>
>I spent a little over one month on the Theodore Roosevelt and was astonished at
>the adversarial relationships between officers and non-officers. You guys may
>work and live togather closer than the Air Force, but you certainly don't
>respect and get along better.
>
>>you know where the hangar is don't you?
>
>Since thats where my squadron was located, yes I do.
>
>
>BUFDRVR
>
>"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
>everyone on Bear Creek"

[Vee-One]

"Gene Storey" > wrote in message
news:Fg6sb.824$6p6.593@okepread03...
> "Vee-One" > wrote
> >
> > Enlisted-ops. HA! I'll never forget the reaming that a SMSGT pro-super
> > gave a A1C who copped an attitude with the SSGT crew chief about the
mess
> > they left on a jet post-flight. He went whined to his AC about it, and
that
> > Captain tried to raise a fuss, instead of doing the right thing. That
type
> > of leadership?
>
> Nope, leadership is always about doing the right thing. Ass reaming is
a
> particular enlisted thing, and one I never paid much attention to. I
figured
> they just liked screaming at each other, because they didn't have a
developed
> vocabulary.
>
> When I flew heavies, the last man off the jet was the mission commander,
and
> he'd empty the bus if the seat belts weren't in the same position we found
them
> on pre-flight. God help you if he found any FOD (coke cans, wrappers,
etc),
> or grease-pen markings left on your equipment. But this wasn't the kind
of stuff
> that we were paid to do, or excel in.
>
>
OK, I'll agree that the difference between your paycheck and mine reflect
the difference in our job, and in the level of responsibility we were both
entrusted with. However, keeping a clean aircraft has nothing to do with
rank, but respect for the equipment and people who take care of it. You
wouldn't just drop an empty can on your living room floor and think "The
wife will get it, that's what she does", would you?

I guess that there will always be a difference in the way people think and
behave towards one another. I just hope that I don't **** off the next guy
too badly with my words......................

Peter

[Gene Storey]

Just be honest, and use phrases that you know will **** the six guys
off who "own" the forum, and who will drag the subject all the way
down to "The Nazi's did it" and then you will know the thread is
dead. Don't post after the Nazi's are brought up, as this is bad form.


"user" > wrote
> OBTW, BUFDRVR,
> I have been reading in this newsgroup for a few months now, and have
> just recently decided to get squirrley about posting in here. Is there
> some kinda rules or FAQ's that I should read that you could point me
> in the right direction to? Thanks

[Vee-One]

"BUFDRVR" > wrote in message
...
> >In my experience with the Air Force flying 'O's, you guys never set
> >foot on the hangar deck and have no clue who works on your jets.
>
> Must be pre-1993 experience.
>

BUFF, I'll have to disagree, but I'll preface this by saying I only worked
in 2 units during the great "reorganization circus".

I was at Tinker AFB, working AWACS maintenance, when it happened.
Administratively, we were reassigned from a single maintenance squadron, to
fall under our respective ops squadron. Our orderly room, admin folks,
training managers, etc all moved over to the ops building. We, the
flightline folks, stayed where we were at, because we located next to the
flightline. Never saw the bosses come down to the shop (except the
maintenance officer, he stayed where we were). If you went over to the OR
and walked into the building in BDU's, EVERYBODY looked down at you. I
would have dearly loved to work at a unit where the ops-maintenace merge
worked.

> >You don't even work in the same place
>
> Then who the hell were all those guys downstairs wearing the BDU's? Some
of
> them were the same crew chiefs that I "just signed the jet from". They
came to
> all our squadron meetings and functions too. Who the hell were they?
>
> >do you even know who works on your gear?
>
> Well, since I spent one year as the Life Support Officer, I was very
familar,
> and since they were (are) in the same squadron with me, I'd have to be a
real
> idiot to not know who they were even if I wasn't LSO.
>
> >The only
> >contact you have with the enlisted people that work on your jets is
> >the crewchief.
>
> And the line speacialists and the bomb loaders and every maintenance
personell
> outside of the back shop guys who were in a differant squadron. Now....as
of 1
> OCT 2002, they moved the maintenance function(except Life Support) back
to its
> own squadron and out of the Ops squadron, but the people still work in the
same
> offices, its just that they don't come to all the squadron meetings.
Nearly
> everyone recognizes this as a mistake.
>

From my point of view, it's entirely the right thing to do. Again, that's
MY view, a 16 year maintainer working E-3's and E-8's.

> >In the Navy
>
> <snip>
>
> <sarcasm on>Yeah, the Navy has some great officer-NCO or officer-enlisted
> relationships <sarcasm off>
>
> I spent a little over one month on the Theodore Roosevelt and was
astonished at
> the adversarial relationships between officers and non-officers. You guys
may
> work and live togather closer than the Air Force, but you certainly don't
> respect and get along better.
>
> >you know where the hangar is don't you?
>
> Since thats where my squadron was located, yes I do.
>
>
> BUFDRVR
>
> "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
harelips
> everyone on Bear Creek"

Peter

[Gene Storey]

"Vee-One" > wrote
>
> OK, I'll agree that the difference between your paycheck and mine reflect
> the difference in our job, and in the level of responsibility we were both
> entrusted with. However, keeping a clean aircraft has nothing to do with
> rank, but respect for the equipment and people who take care of it. You
> wouldn't just drop an empty can on your living room floor and think "The
> wife will get it, that's what she does", would you?

No, I was agreeing with you mostly. That there is a personal discipline that
must develop. I always had two sets of BDU's and Flight Suits. Those I
wore during the 24 hour C-141 ride to the war zone, and those I changed
into just before landing. I could care less if you had a spoon or a fork
sticking out your flight-suit where a pen or pencil should go, or that your
scarf and hat looked like you used it to wipe your ass. No, clean and
presentable costs very little, and I like sharp troops, and clean jets.

[Jughead]

Gene, all I can say is your attitude really sucks and that your view of
maintenance types is severely skewed.

An ass reaming isn't "a particular enlisted thing" or even "a maintenance
thing". I can point my finger directly at certain officers (ops and
maintenance alike) who got their own asses reamed out, and even lost
jobs, because of their actions. I remember a pilot in a unit I used to be
with "lose his wings" after he flew an aircraft home from another
location with a known flight control problem. The DO (an ops officer) was
waiting on the ramp when the crew landed and ripped into him right then
and there. I know of other ops types get chewed out and even lose their
job over what they failed to do as well (e.g., not doing enough to
correct a problem).

When all is said and done, you're just another person in this world
destined to die someday just like me and everybody else here. There are
plenty of maintenance types who are not only educated, but may even be
more educated than you and quite a few other officers.

Bottom line is, you've got no class. You could put 100 of yourself
together and it still won't add up to enough class to meet the amount of
class carried by many other members (regardless of rank or what side of
the house they're on) on their own.

"Gene Storey" > wrote in
news:Fg6sb.824$6p6.593@okepread03:

> "Vee-One" > wrote
>>
>> Enlisted-ops. HA! I'll never forget the reaming that a SMSGT
>> pro-super gave a A1C who copped an attitude with the SSGT crew chief
>> about the mess they left on a jet post-flight. He went whined to his
>> AC about it, and that Captain tried to raise a fuss, instead of doing
>> the right thing. That type of leadership?
>
> Nope, leadership is always about doing the right thing. Ass reaming
> is a particular enlisted thing, and one I never paid much attention
> to. I figured they just liked screaming at each other, because they
> didn't have a developed vocabulary.
>
> When I flew heavies, the last man off the jet was the mission
> commander, and he'd empty the bus if the seat belts weren't in the
> same position we found them on pre-flight. God help you if he found
> any FOD (coke cans, wrappers, etc), or grease-pen markings left on
> your equipment. But this wasn't the kind of stuff that we were paid
> to do, or excel in.

[Mike Marron]

>"Gene Storey" > wrote:
>>"user" > wrote:

>>OBTW, BUFDRVR,
>>I have been reading in this newsgroup for a few months now, and have
>>just recently decided to get squirrley about posting in here. Is there
>>some kinda rules or FAQ's that I should read that you could point me
>>in the right direction to? Thanks

>Just be honest, and use phrases that you know will **** the six guys
>off who "own" the forum, and who will drag the subject all the way
>down to "The Nazi's did it" and then you will know the thread is
>dead. Don't post after the Nazi's are brought up, as this is bad form.

Hilarious! You forgot to mention that, in addition to the six
guys, the one gal who also "owns" the forum. You know, the
group's favorite retired aerospace research engineer whose
the only person "allowed" to chit chat about Kool Whip, Jello,
yummy treats for her dog and her latest warm 'n fuzzy counted
cross stitch craft project she ordered from her Lillian Vernon
catalog.

[user]

Too funny!!!
Noted.

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 18:48:52 GMT, Mike Marron >
wrote:

>>"Gene Storey" > wrote:
>>>"user" > wrote:
>
>>>OBTW, BUFDRVR,
>>>I have been reading in this newsgroup for a few months now, and have
>>>just recently decided to get squirrley about posting in here. Is there
>>>some kinda rules or FAQ's that I should read that you could point me
>>>in the right direction to? Thanks
>
>>Just be honest, and use phrases that you know will **** the six guys
>>off who "own" the forum, and who will drag the subject all the way
>>down to "The Nazi's did it" and then you will know the thread is
>>dead. Don't post after the Nazi's are brought up, as this is bad form.
>
>Hilarious! You forgot to mention that, in addition to the six
>guys, the one gal who also "owns" the forum. You know, the
>group's favorite retired aerospace research engineer whose
>the only person "allowed" to chit chat about Kool Whip, Jello,
>yummy treats for her dog and her latest warm 'n fuzzy counted
>cross stitch craft project she ordered from her Lillian Vernon
>catalog.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[BUFDRVR]

>One experience was more recent, 2001 Cope Thunder in Eilsson
>(sp?). , where ops and the flight gear clubhouse (complete with
>lockers and showers) was in a totally seperate building than the
>hangar and maintenance.

Space is always at a premium. Our Life Support shop was located across the
street in a seperate building, but there was no room in the squadron building,
perhaps the same is true at Eilson?

> I'm taking it that line specialists, bomb loaders,
>maintenance, flight gear, and ops are all different squadrons?

As of 1 OCT 2002 you are correct, kind of.. There are now Ops Squadrons and
Maintenance Squadrons. I'll pleade ignorance on how they've got the maintenance
squadrons broken up (crew chiefs in one, hydraulics in another, etc.), however,
from 1 OCT 1993 till 1 OCT 2002 we were all (except the back shop guys) in one
squadron. This current "break up" is considered a mistake Air Force wide.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[BUFDRVR]

>Just be honest, and use phrases that you know will **** the six guys
>off who "own" the forum, and who will drag the subject all the way
>down to "The Nazi's did it" and then you will know the thread is
>dead. Don't post after the Nazi's are brought up, as this is bad form.
>

Damn that was good...


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[BUFDRVR]

>BUFF, I'll have to disagree, but I'll preface this by saying I only worked
>in 2 units during the great "reorganization circus".

I only worked in two as well, but it was a success story in each one.

>We, the
>flightline folks, stayed where we were at, because we located next to the
>flightline.

In many cases around the Air Force, I'm sure this was true and in a perfect
world working in the same building would be the norm, but I don't think its
required to make the ops-mnx cooperation successful.

>Never saw the bosses come down to the shop

Failure of leadership, not the system.

> If you went over to the OR
>and walked into the building in BDU's, EVERYBODY looked down at you.

I'll have to take your word for it, but I find it hard to believe. I thought
more highly of our young enlisted folks than I did many of our young officers.

>From my point of view, it's entirely the right thing to do. Again, that's
>MY view, a 16 year maintainer working E-3's and E-8's.

Obviously you're not alone or the reorganization would not have taken place.
I've been at the Pentagon since July, but as I was leaving, some of the old
(pre-1993) problems were beginning to surface and nearly everyone I talk to
about the reorganization feels it was a mistake, you're the first I've seen in
favor of it.




BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Vee-One]

"BUFDRVR" > wrote in message
...
> >BUFF, I'll have to disagree, but I'll preface this by saying I only
worked
> >in 2 units during the great "reorganization circus".
>
> I only worked in two as well, but it was a success story in each one.
>

Just taking a wild guess here, but were they B-52 units? <grin>
I seem to recall that most of the positive comments I ever heard were from
people that worked either fighter units, or bomber units. The flyers there
seemed to have a better grasp of "teamwork", and a much higher respect for
the wrench-benders. And I guess that there were much fewer fliers assigned
than in my units (AWACS and JSTARS).

> >We, the
> >flightline folks, stayed where we were at, because we located next to the
> >flightline.
>
> In many cases around the Air Force, I'm sure this was true and in a
perfect
> world working in the same building would be the norm, but I don't think
its
> required to make the ops-mnx cooperation successful.
>
> >Never saw the bosses come down to the shop
>
> Failure of leadership, not the system.
>

Agreed.

> > If you went over to the OR
> >and walked into the building in BDU's, EVERYBODY looked down at you.
>
> I'll have to take your word for it, but I find it hard to believe. I
thought
> more highly of our young enlisted folks than I did many of our young
officers.
>

Not to say that it never happens. Like anywhere, I met my share of
outstanding folks, and real idiots.

> >From my point of view, it's entirely the right thing to do. Again,
that's
> >MY view, a 16 year maintainer working E-3's and E-8's.
>
> Obviously you're not alone or the reorganization would not have taken
place.
> I've been at the Pentagon since July, but as I was leaving, some of the
old
> (pre-1993) problems were beginning to surface and nearly everyone I talk
to
> about the reorganization feels it was a mistake, you're the first I've
seen in
> favor of it.
>

I think it's the "full-circle" theory at work. Every few years you make a
change to the system, and eventually you'll come back around to the
beginning again (don't like the weather? Wait, it'll change). Since the
start of my career coincided with the separate MX/OPS squadrons, I MIGHT be
a little biased to that system.

Pete

[Gene Storey]

"Vee-One" > wrote
>
> "BUFDRVR" > wrote
> > > If you went over to the OR
> > > and walked into the building in BDU's, EVERYBODY looked
> > > down at you.
> >
> > I'll have to take your word for it, but I find it hard to believe. I
> > thought more highly of our young enlisted folks than I did many of our
> > young officers.
>
> Not to say that it never happens. Like anywhere, I met my share of
> outstanding folks, and real idiots.

AWACS and JWACS squadrons have very few pilots, and you would be
hard pressed to find them in the sea of other positions. I think it's these
other positions that you may have identified as being BDU sensitive.

If there's one kind of people we all liked to bail out of jail, it was the
crew chief's and cooks.

Course now, I've only been TDY to Tinker twice in my life, but I never saw
so many enlisted crew dogs in my life. The gomers were everywhere.

[Vee-One]

"Gene Storey" > wrote in message
news:Ueesb.872$6p6.283@okepread03...
> "Vee-One" > wrote
> >
> > "BUFDRVR" > wrote
> > > > If you went over to the OR
> > > > and walked into the building in BDU's, EVERYBODY looked
> > > > down at you.
> > >
> > > I'll have to take your word for it, but I find it hard to believe. I
> > > thought more highly of our young enlisted folks than I did many of our
> > > young officers.
> >
> > Not to say that it never happens. Like anywhere, I met my share of
> > outstanding folks, and real idiots.
>
> AWACS and JWACS squadrons have very few pilots, and you would be
> hard pressed to find them in the sea of other positions. I think it's
these
> other positions that you may have identified as being BDU sensitive.
>

You're right of course. A few minutes to clear my head and re-read the
posts can do wonders for my comprehension (but not for my ego).
But there were also the folks who really believed in the hard-crew concept,
and they stuck together like rats on a ship (sorry, Navy).

> If there's one kind of people we all liked to bail out of jail, it was the
> crew chief's and cooks.
>
> Course now, I've only been TDY to Tinker twice in my life, but I never saw
> so many enlisted crew dogs in my life. The gomers were everywhere.
>

Not hard, considering a typical crew. The number of back-enders far
outweigh the flight crew, and it seems like more and more them are enlisted.
As a rule, the only ones we (maintenance) got along with were the ones that
we worked with (i.e. Radar troops and the Airborne Radar Techs, the com/nav
folks and the Comm Techs, etc.)

[Leslie Swartz]

Note- "Success Story" from the ZSSG(1) point of view is very different from
the definition of "Success Story" from the LGM(2) point of view . . .

Yeah, no doubt absorbing On-Equipment Maintenance into the Ops squadrons was
a wonderful idea . . . from the Ops point of view. But was it a success
from the USAF point of view?

Nope.


1: Zipper Suited Sun God
2: Little Green Mo********ers

Steve


"BUFDRVR" > wrote in message
...
> >BUFF, I'll have to disagree, but I'll preface this by saying I only
worked
> >in 2 units during the great "reorganization circus".
>
> I only worked in two as well, but it was a success story in each one.
>
> >We, the
> >flightline folks, stayed where we were at, because we located next to the
> >flightline.
>
> In many cases around the Air Force, I'm sure this was true and in a
perfect
> world working in the same building would be the norm, but I don't think
its
> required to make the ops-mnx cooperation successful.
>
> >Never saw the bosses come down to the shop
>
> Failure of leadership, not the system.
>
> > If you went over to the OR
> >and walked into the building in BDU's, EVERYBODY looked down at you.
>
> I'll have to take your word for it, but I find it hard to believe. I
thought
> more highly of our young enlisted folks than I did many of our young
officers.
>
> >From my point of view, it's entirely the right thing to do. Again,
that's
> >MY view, a 16 year maintainer working E-3's and E-8's.
>
> Obviously you're not alone or the reorganization would not have taken
place.
> I've been at the Pentagon since July, but as I was leaving, some of the
old
> (pre-1993) problems were beginning to surface and nearly everyone I talk
to
> about the reorganization feels it was a mistake, you're the first I've
seen in
> favor of it.
>
>
>
>
> BUFDRVR
>
> "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
harelips
> everyone on Bear Creek"

[Leslie Swartz]

The typical breakout is "On Equipment" vs. "Off Equipment."

There are indeed "Organizational Management" reasons for either centralizing
or decentralizing functions in an organization; regrettably, those who make
the decisions don't generally learn these things.

Too busy flying to learn.

Steve Swartz



"BUFDRVR" > wrote in message
...
> >One experience was more recent, 2001 Cope Thunder in Eilsson
> >(sp?). , where ops and the flight gear clubhouse (complete with
> >lockers and showers) was in a totally seperate building than the
> >hangar and maintenance.
>
> Space is always at a premium. Our Life Support shop was located across the
> street in a seperate building, but there was no room in the squadron
building,
> perhaps the same is true at Eilson?
>
> > I'm taking it that line specialists, bomb loaders,
> >maintenance, flight gear, and ops are all different squadrons?
>
> As of 1 OCT 2002 you are correct, kind of.. There are now Ops Squadrons
and
> Maintenance Squadrons. I'll pleade ignorance on how they've got the
maintenance
> squadrons broken up (crew chiefs in one, hydraulics in another, etc.),
however,
> from 1 OCT 1993 till 1 OCT 2002 we were all (except the back shop guys) in
one
> squadron. This current "break up" is considered a mistake Air Force wide.
>
>
> BUFDRVR
>
> "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
harelips
> everyone on Bear Creek"

[B2431]

>From: (BUFDRVR)


<snip>

>>In my experience with the Air Force flying 'O's, you guys never set
>>foot on the hangar deck and have no clue who works on your jets.
>
>Must be pre-1993 experience.
>
>>You don't even work in the same place
>
>Then who the hell were all those guys downstairs wearing the BDU's? Some of
>them were the same crew chiefs that I "just signed the jet from". They came
>to all our squadron meetings and functions too. Who the hell were they?

<snip>

The relationship between OPS and maintenance is always changing and may never
actually be ideal. Maintenance keeps changing how they run themselves every few
years. If you want examples of Chinese ceremonial goose stuffings look up POMO,
COMO etc. I was in maintenance as part of OPS units, my last was 9 SOS,
separate maintenace squadrons and CAMS. The average wrenchbender couldn't care
less what you call the unit as long as he gets good leadership, treatment and
support.

>>In the Navy
>
><snip>
>
><sarcasm on>Yeah, the Navy has some great officer-NCO or officer-enlisted
>relationships <sarcasm off>
>
>I spent a little over one month on the Theodore Roosevelt and was astonished
>at the adversarial relationships between officers and non-officers. You guys
may
>work and live togather closer than the Air Force, but you certainly don't
respect and get along better.
>

I went to sea with the Navy a few times on the little boats like the USS
Okinawa. I didn't see the adversarial relationships you describe, but the rank
differences are much more defined in the Navy than the Air Force. Examples;
"officer country," top 3 going to the head of the chow line etc. Things are
only slightly better than WW2 where boats like destroyers had such a class
difference you'd see officers eating fresh fruit at one end of the chow hall
and enlisted at the other end eating slop. Shipboard life is very much a feudal
system and probably always will be which explaind why the ship's captain has a
Marine guard.


Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired