Latest Blackhawks down

[miso]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3273895.stm

Previosly, a thread went into the merits of flying low. Maybe that
works for SA-7s, but flying low puts the choppers in the range of the
RPGs.

The news never states the type of RPG, but if it is the RPG-7, the
range is 300 meters.
http://www.g2mil.com/RPG.htm

Part of the new plan was to fly at night, but given the description of
the witnesses, it seems like this flight was during the day.

[Sunny]

"miso" > wrote in message
om...
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3273895.stm
>
> Previosly, a thread went into the merits of flying low. Maybe that
> works for SA-7s, but flying low puts the choppers in the range of the
> RPGs.
>
> The news never states the type of RPG, but if it is the RPG-7, the
> range is 300 meters.
> http://www.g2mil.com/RPG.htm

It's more than that : (fast and low is still the go - don't give the
*******s time to set up)
The maximum range for antitank grenades against area targets is 920 meters,
at which point the round self-destructs after its 4.5 second flight. The
antipersonnel grenades reach over 1100 meters.

[miso]

Does fast and low presume that there is terrain to hide behind? I
suppose the silhouette of a Blackhawk is easier to see against the sky
than the horizon.

I don't presume I'm correct, but whatever we are doing now isn't
working.

"Sunny" > wrote in message >...
> "miso" > wrote in message
> om...
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3273895.stm
> >
> > Previosly, a thread went into the merits of flying low. Maybe that
> > works for SA-7s, but flying low puts the choppers in the range of the
> > RPGs.
> >
> > The news never states the type of RPG, but if it is the RPG-7, the
> > range is 300 meters.
> > http://www.g2mil.com/RPG.htm
>
> It's more than that : (fast and low is still the go - don't give the
> *******s time to set up)
> The maximum range for antitank grenades against area targets is 920 meters,
> at which point the round self-destructs after its 4.5 second flight. The
> antipersonnel grenades reach over 1100 meters.

[Sunny]

Unfortunately, we will never know how many attempts at engaging choppers
were abandoned.
The helicopter is very vulnerable to shooters hiding among buildings.
What will go a long way, is for the ground troops to get out of their
vehicles, stop returning to their "compounds" each night and start sneaking
among the locals. (get the friendly ones on side and start gathering some
hard intel)
(my solution, from the safety of my chair)

"miso" > wrote in message
om...
> Does fast and low presume that there is terrain to hide behind? I
> suppose the silhouette of a Blackhawk is easier to see against the sky
> than the horizon.
>
> I don't presume I'm correct, but whatever we are doing now isn't
> working.
>
> "Sunny" > wrote in message
>...
> > "miso" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3273895.stm
> > >
> > > Previosly, a thread went into the merits of flying low. Maybe that
> > > works for SA-7s, but flying low puts the choppers in the range of the
> > > RPGs.
> > >
> > > The news never states the type of RPG, but if it is the RPG-7, the
> > > range is 300 meters.
> > > http://www.g2mil.com/RPG.htm
> >
> > It's more than that : (fast and low is still the go - don't give the
> > *******s time to set up)
> > The maximum range for antitank grenades against area targets is 920
meters,
> > at which point the round self-destructs after its 4.5 second flight. The
> > antipersonnel grenades reach over 1100 meters.

[The Enlightenment]

(miso) wrote in message >...
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3273895.stm
>
> Previosly, a thread went into the merits of flying low. Maybe that
> works for SA-7s, but flying low puts the choppers in the range of the
> RPGs.
>
> The news never states the type of RPG, but if it is the RPG-7, the
> range is 300 meters.
> http://www.g2mil.com/RPG.htm
>
> Part of the new plan was to fly at night, but given the description of
> the witnesses, it seems like this flight was during the day.

Interesting aticle.

If the RPG7 launcher was fitted with a WW2 style lead computing sight
and given a radar/laser proximity fused fragmentation round it might
be quite effective at ambushing helicopters.

Single chip gyroscopes are now available for radio contolled model
aircraft. In the absence of gyroscopes for obtaining rate information
a tripod could be provided as a basis. Radar/laser promximity fuses
are also not difficult or expensive items in this day and age.

[miso]

I think the gyros are just for failsafe level flght.

(The Enlightenment) wrote in message >...
> (miso) wrote in message >...
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3273895.stm
> >
> > Previosly, a thread went into the merits of flying low. Maybe that
> > works for SA-7s, but flying low puts the choppers in the range of the
> > RPGs.
> >
> > The news never states the type of RPG, but if it is the RPG-7, the
> > range is 300 meters.
> > http://www.g2mil.com/RPG.htm
> >
> > Part of the new plan was to fly at night, but given the description of
> > the witnesses, it seems like this flight was during the day.
>
> Interesting aticle.
>
> If the RPG7 launcher was fitted with a WW2 style lead computing sight
> and given a radar/laser proximity fused fragmentation round it might
> be quite effective at ambushing helicopters.
>
> Single chip gyroscopes are now available for radio contolled model
> aircraft. In the absence of gyroscopes for obtaining rate information
> a tripod could be provided as a basis. Radar/laser promximity fuses
> are also not difficult or expensive items in this day and age.

[The Enlightenment]

"miso" > wrote in message
om...
> I think the gyros are just for failsafe level flght.


I meant Gyros for the RPG7 launcher sights. The idea is that the
person firing the RPG7 turns a dial to close in a recticle around the
helicopter. This estimates the range and gives the amount of
elevation needed. At the same time by tracking the helicopters for a
few seconds the 'rate' of the helicopters crossing speed is calculated
and in this way a complete 'firing solution' is available. The Gyros
are needed to provide a measurement basis if a tripod can't be
provided. The RPG7 is then launched against the helicopter. The
lighter RPG7 rounds have a fair degree of velocity and therefore
range. If a special anti-aircraft fragmentation round is supplied
with a simple (laser) proximity fuse I think a very effective weapon
would be produced. I immagine such a round would have a lethal
distance of quite a few meters and a near miss would be enough.

In the absence of such a computing sight a WW2 style griticule could
be provided with the opperator estimating range and speed.

The range would be restricted to about 1000 meters but I salvo of half
a dozen such rounds might be very effective.

I suspect that someone must have tried to create a guided RPG7 round.
It wouldn't take much to put laser beam riding in.



>
> (The Enlightenment) wrote in message
>...
> > (miso) wrote in message
>...
> > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3273895.stm
> > >
> > > Previosly, a thread went into the merits of flying low. Maybe
that
> > > works for SA-7s, but flying low puts the choppers in the range
of the
> > > RPGs.
> > >
> > > The news never states the type of RPG, but if it is the RPG-7,
the
> > > range is 300 meters.
> > > http://www.g2mil.com/RPG.htm
> > >
> > > Part of the new plan was to fly at night, but given the
description of
> > > the witnesses, it seems like this flight was during the day.
> >
> > Interesting aticle.
> >
> > If the RPG7 launcher was fitted with a WW2 style lead computing
sight
> > and given a radar/laser proximity fused fragmentation round it
might
> > be quite effective at ambushing helicopters.
> >
> > Single chip gyroscopes are now available for radio contolled model
> > aircraft. In the absence of gyroscopes for obtaining rate
information
> > a tripod could be provided as a basis. Radar/laser promximity
fuses
> > are also not difficult or expensive items in this day and age.

[miso]

I'm sure the insurgents are taking notes. ;-)

Actually, there are all sorts of piezo (really MEMS) based gyros on
the market. This would be dual-use technology, though I doubt they US
players (like Analog Devices) are sending them to the Middle East. The
other source for solid state gyros is Japan, which may not have tight
controls.

"The Enlightenment" > wrote in message >...
> "miso" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I think the gyros are just for failsafe level flght.
>
>
> I meant Gyros for the RPG7 launcher sights. The idea is that the
> person firing the RPG7 turns a dial to close in a recticle around the
> helicopter. This estimates the range and gives the amount of
> elevation needed. At the same time by tracking the helicopters for a
> few seconds the 'rate' of the helicopters crossing speed is calculated
> and in this way a complete 'firing solution' is available. The Gyros
> are needed to provide a measurement basis if a tripod can't be
> provided. The RPG7 is then launched against the helicopter. The
> lighter RPG7 rounds have a fair degree of velocity and therefore
> range. If a special anti-aircraft fragmentation round is supplied
> with a simple (laser) proximity fuse I think a very effective weapon
> would be produced. I immagine such a round would have a lethal
> distance of quite a few meters and a near miss would be enough.
>
> In the absence of such a computing sight a WW2 style griticule could
> be provided with the opperator estimating range and speed.
>
> The range would be restricted to about 1000 meters but I salvo of half
> a dozen such rounds might be very effective.
>
> I suspect that someone must have tried to create a guided RPG7 round.
> It wouldn't take much to put laser beam riding in.
>
>
>
> >
> > (The Enlightenment) wrote in message
> >...
> > > (miso) wrote in message
> >...
> > > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3273895.stm
> > > >
> > > > Previosly, a thread went into the merits of flying low. Maybe
> that
> > > > works for SA-7s, but flying low puts the choppers in the range
> of the
> > > > RPGs.
> > > >
> > > > The news never states the type of RPG, but if it is the RPG-7,
> the
> > > > range is 300 meters.
> > > > http://www.g2mil.com/RPG.htm
> > > >
> > > > Part of the new plan was to fly at night, but given the
> description of
> > > > the witnesses, it seems like this flight was during the day.
> > >
> > > Interesting aticle.
> > >
> > > If the RPG7 launcher was fitted with a WW2 style lead computing
> sight
> > > and given a radar/laser proximity fused fragmentation round it
> might
> > > be quite effective at ambushing helicopters.
> > >
> > > Single chip gyroscopes are now available for radio contolled model
> > > aircraft. In the absence of gyroscopes for obtaining rate
> information
> > > a tripod could be provided as a basis. Radar/laser promximity
> fuses
> > > are also not difficult or expensive items in this day and age.