High altitude Helicopter work

[Allen]

I am curious about use of a chopper in the higher altitudes of
Afghanistan. The Canadians are in Kabul and the word is our Griffin, a
Bell 412 helicopter, can't work in the mountains. Anyone now why.....
lack of power at altitude, lack of oxygen ?

Allen

[Simon Robbins]

"Allen" > wrote in message
.. .
> I am curious about use of a chopper in the higher altitudes of
> Afghanistan. The Canadians are in Kabul and the word is our Griffin, a
> Bell 412 helicopter, can't work in the mountains. Anyone now why.....
> lack of power at altitude, lack of oxygen ?

Rather than lack of oxygen, I imagine it would be that the lower air
pressure simply means the rotor is unable to achieve lift without an
unacceptable increase in rotor speed, which would likely overstress the
engines and gearbox.

Have a look at:
http://www.bellhelicopter.textron.com/aircraft/commercial/rz412EP_spec_detail.htm
and you'll see the service ceilings. Not much room there to take mountains
into account, less so with a full load.

Si

[B2431]

>From: "Simon Robbins"
>Date: 11/17/2003 12:46 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"Allen" > wrote in message
.. .
>> I am curious about use of a chopper in the higher altitudes of
>> Afghanistan. The Canadians are in Kabul and the word is our Griffin, a
>> Bell 412 helicopter, can't work in the mountains. Anyone now why.....
>> lack of power at altitude, lack of oxygen ?
>
>Rather than lack of oxygen, I imagine it would be that the lower air
>pressure simply means the rotor is unable to achieve lift without an
>unacceptable increase in rotor speed, which would likely overstress the
>engines and gearbox.
>
>Have a look at:
>
>http://www.bellhelicopter.textron.com/aircraft/commercial/rz412EP_spec_de
tail.htm
>and you'll see the service ceilings. Not much room there to take mountains
>into account, less so with a full load.
>
>Si
>
There was an example of that which made the rounds last year. There was a high
altitude rescue involving an H-60. The helicopter simply dropped out of the
sky, hit the mountain and rolled down the slope.
If anyone has a clip of that please post a link.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Archibald]

Highest heli-rescue was in Nepal...Mount Everest, 7000 meters i think.
That's pretty high! Anyone know what it was? Gazelle i think?

B2431 wrote:
>>From: "Simon Robbins"
>>Date: 11/17/2003 12:46 PM Central Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>"Allen" > wrote in message
.. .
>>
>>>I am curious about use of a chopper in the higher altitudes of
>>>Afghanistan. The Canadians are in Kabul and the word is our Griffin, a
>>>Bell 412 helicopter, can't work in the mountains. Anyone now why.....
>>>lack of power at altitude, lack of oxygen ?
>>
>>Rather than lack of oxygen, I imagine it would be that the lower air
>>pressure simply means the rotor is unable to achieve lift without an
>>unacceptable increase in rotor speed, which would likely overstress the
>>engines and gearbox.
>>
>>Have a look at:
>>
>>http://www.bellhelicopter.textron.com/aircraft/commercial/rz412EP_spec_de
>
> tail.htm
>
>>and you'll see the service ceilings. Not much room there to take mountains
>>into account, less so with a full load.
>>
>>Si
>>
>
> There was an example of that which made the rounds last year. There was a high
> altitude rescue involving an H-60. The helicopter simply dropped out of the
> sky, hit the mountain and rolled down the slope.
> If anyone has a clip of that please post a link.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[David Lesher]

"Simon Robbins" > writes:


>Rather than lack of oxygen, I imagine it would be that the lower air
>pressure simply means the rotor is unable to achieve lift without an
>unacceptable increase in rotor speed, which would likely overstress the
>engines and gearbox.

I've wondered what keeps you from building a high-altitude version.

I envison big fat blades and an engine design for thin air. Or is there
some other issue I'm not seeing?
--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[B2431]

>From: Archibald

>Highest heli-rescue was in Nepal...Mount Everest, 7000 meters i think.
>That's pretty high! Anyone know what it was? Gazelle i think?
>
I don't believe that one went to the top.

I seem to recall a Soviet attempt to land helicopters on the summit of Everest
in the 1970s.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[Allen]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> >From: Archibald
>
> >Highest heli-rescue was in Nepal...Mount Everest, 7000 meters i
think.
> >That's pretty high! Anyone know what it was? Gazelle i think?
> >
> I don't believe that one went to the top.
>
> I seem to recall a Soviet attempt to land helicopters on the summit of
Everest
> in the 1970s.
>
> Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

Thanks for the info guys. I checked out a web site with articles by the
crews of the CH-47Ds that worked the mountain ranges in Afghanistan.
They frequently did landings at 17000 - 20000 ft. All very interesting
and informative.

Allen, RCAF/Canadian Air Force, retired

[steve gallacci]

> There was an example of that which made the rounds last year. There was a high
> altitude rescue involving an H-60. The helicopter simply dropped out of the
> sky, hit the mountain and rolled down the slope.
> If anyone has a clip of that please post a link.
>
Actually, that was a windy situation on a very steep slope that ended
with a rotor strike (if I remember correctly). The footage clearly
showed the machine hovering, attempting to get in close, then things got
bad. It was on Mt Hood or Mt Rainier.
But many helios have fairly limited ceilings and simply can't go very
high.

[Larry]

> The footage clearly
> showed the machine hovering, attempting to get in close, then things got
> bad. It was on Mt Hood or Mt Rainier.
Right down the street at Mount Rainier.


--
(¯`·._.· £ãrrÿ ·._.·´¯)




"steve gallacci" > wrote in message
...
>
> > There was an example of that which made the rounds last year. There was
a high
> > altitude rescue involving an H-60. The helicopter simply dropped out of
the
> > sky, hit the mountain and rolled down the slope.
> > If anyone has a clip of that please post a link.
> >
> Actually, that was a windy situation on a very steep slope that ended
> with a rotor strike (if I remember correctly). The footage clearly
> showed the machine hovering, attempting to get in close, then things got
> bad. It was on Mt Hood or Mt Rainier.
> But many helios have fairly limited ceilings and simply can't go very
> high.

[Dick Snyder]

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 20:19:57 -0500, "Allen" >
wrote:
>
>Thanks for the info guys. I checked out a web site with articles by the
>crews of the CH-47Ds that worked the mountain ranges in Afghanistan.
>They frequently did landings at 17000 - 20000 ft. All very interesting
>and informative.
>
>Allen, RCAF/Canadian Air Force, retired
>
Mind posting the link. As an ex-hook driver from during the
Vietnam era I'd be very interested. Our A-models had a service
ceiling of 12,500 due to hydraulic cavation. Hooks, at least the A,
B, & C models (all of which I flew), are hydraulic dependent (an
understatement to say the least). Can't even spool up the engines
without pressurizing the systems with the APU. A lot of changes were
made on the D model however.

Thanks,

Snyder, US Army, retired.

[John Keeney]

"David Lesher" > wrote in message
...
> "Simon Robbins" > writes:
>
>
> >Rather than lack of oxygen, I imagine it would be that the lower air
> >pressure simply means the rotor is unable to achieve lift without an
> >unacceptable increase in rotor speed, which would likely overstress the
> >engines and gearbox.
>
> I've wondered what keeps you from building a high-altitude version.
>
> I envison big fat blades and an engine design for thin air. Or is there
> some other issue I'm not seeing?

Lack of demand most likely.
Not a lot of places to land on mountains that tall.

[Cub Driver]

Don't know the helicopter type, but it belonged to the Nepalese army
and was piloted by a gent named Madan, who twice flew to above 21,000
feet to rescue two Everest climbers in the spring of 1996. See John
Krakauer's Into Thin Air, a very fine book.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put CUB in subject line)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Allen]

"Dick Snyder" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 20:19:57 -0500, "Allen" >
> wrote:
> >
> >Thanks for the info guys. I checked out a web site with articles by
the
> >crews of the CH-47Ds that worked the mountain ranges in Afghanistan.
> >They frequently did landings at 17000 - 20000 ft. All very
interesting
> >and informative.
> >
> >Allen, RCAF/Canadian Air Force, retired
> >
> Mind posting the link. As an ex-hook driver from during the
> Vietnam era I'd be very interested. Our A-models had a service
> ceiling of 12,500 due to hydraulic cavation. Hooks, at least the A,
> B, & C models (all of which I flew), are hydraulic dependent (an
> understatement to say the least). Can't even spool up the engines
> without pressurizing the systems with the APU. A lot of changes were
> made on the D model however.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Snyder, US Army, retired.

Here's a couple:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/mh-47e.htm

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/article.cfm?Id=850

Afraid I couldn't find the exact site I found last night. Shame on me
for not providing references for my sited info.

Allen

[John Hairell]

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 00:10:26 +0000 (UTC), David Lesher
> wrote:

>"Simon Robbins" > writes:
>
>
>>Rather than lack of oxygen, I imagine it would be that the lower air
>>pressure simply means the rotor is unable to achieve lift without an
>>unacceptable increase in rotor speed, which would likely overstress the
>>engines and gearbox.
>
>I've wondered what keeps you from building a high-altitude version.
>
>I envison big fat blades and an engine design for thin air. Or is there
>some other issue I'm not seeing?

Density altitude is a crucial factor in high-altitude helicopter
operations.

In a helicopter, the higher you go the more power is needed. But due
to density altitude, the rotor system and engine(s) are less efficient
at higher elevations, and the engines develop less power. A
helicopter may be able to fly at high altitude but may not be able to
hover, and even in level flight might need to use full throttle, and
if it lands it may not be able to take off.

Also, most helicopters don't routinely carry oxygen systems.

The current altitude record for a small helicopter is:

FAI Class E1b - Altitude Without Payload - takeoff weight 500-1000 Kg
International: 40,820 ft; 12,442 m.
Jean Boulet (France)
Alouette SA 315-001 Lama
Artouste IIIB 735 KW engine
Istres, France June 21, 1972

John Hairell )

[David Lednicer]

It was either a AS350 Ecureuil or a AS355 TwinStar. Examining the
photos, I couldn't tell. There was a great account in Aviation Week &
Space Technology of the rescue. They pointed out that the pilot was
operating above the helicopter's published service ceiling.

[Michael Wise]

In article >,
"Larry" > wrote:

> > The footage clearly
> > showed the machine hovering, attempting to get in close, then things got
> > bad. It was on Mt Hood or Mt Rainier.
> Right down the street at Mount Rainier.



Nope, it was on Mt. Hood.


Among many other links....

http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/News_HeliCrash.htm




--Mike

[David Lednicer]

I just found this:
http://www.au.af.mil/au/goe/eaglebios/98bios/khatri98.htm

It was a AS350 B2 Ecureuil. I remember reading that he did the rescue
after stripping the interior and he only had a partial fuel load.

[Archibald]

Hmmm...impressive, considering that Ecureuil has ceiling of 4400m.


David Lednicer wrote:
>
> I just found this:
> http://www.au.af.mil/au/goe/eaglebios/98bios/khatri98.htm
>
> It was a AS350 B2 Ecureuil. I remember reading that he did the rescue
> after stripping the interior and he only had a partial fuel load.
>

[Cub Driver]

>Hmmm...impressive, considering that Ecureuil has ceiling of 4400m.

It is indeed impressive. Note, h owever, that "service ceiling" is
usually defined as the height at which an aircraft can no longer gain
100 feet per minute. The B-36 seems to have exceeded its service
ceilding by 10,000 feet on occasion.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put CUB in subject line)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[The Enlightenment]

(B2431) wrote in message >...
> >From: "Simon Robbins"
> >Date: 11/17/2003 12:46 PM Central Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >"Allen" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >> I am curious about use of a chopper in the higher altitudes of
> >> Afghanistan. The Canadians are in Kabul and the word is our Griffin, a
> >> Bell 412 helicopter, can't work in the mountains. Anyone now why.....
> >> lack of power at altitude, lack of oxygen ?
> >
> >Rather than lack of oxygen, I imagine it would be that the lower air
> >pressure simply means the rotor is unable to achieve lift without an
> >unacceptable increase in rotor speed, which would likely overstress the
> >engines and gearbox.
> >
> >Have a look at:
> >
> >http://www.bellhelicopter.textron.com/aircraft/commercial/rz412EP_spec_de
> tail.htm
> >and you'll see the service ceilings. Not much room there to take mountains
> >into account, less so with a full load.
> >
> >Si
> >
> There was an example of that which made the rounds last year. There was a high
> altitude rescue involving an H-60. The helicopter simply dropped out of the
> sky, hit the mountain and rolled down the slope.
> If anyone has a clip of that please post a link.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

The French built a High Altitide Helicopter called the Aerospatiale
SA-315B Lama. Hovered at 17000 ft. It was for the Indian Airforce.
http://www.evergreenaviation.com/EHI/specsheets/lama.html

It involved installing the Rotor and Mechanicals of the Allouette III
into the body of the Allouette II.

The Russian Helocopters (eg Mi 24 Hind) becuase of their 5 blade
rotors have better high altitude performance than their 4 bladed US
equivalents.

Some Russian sounding guy posted stuff from a Russian AF General with
Grudging but usefull Advice on this just before the Afghanistan
invasion.

[Regnirps]

<< Thanks for the info guys. I checked out a web site with articles by the
crews of the CH-47Ds that worked the mountain ranges in Afghanistan.
They frequently did landings at 17000 - 20000 ft. All very interesting
and informative. >>

In about '68 my brothers saw a Chinook lift a broken Huey from the summit of
Mt. Rainier -- greater than 14,000 feet. My brother lent the photos to one of
the pilots to copy and we never got them back. OTOH, I still have the Huey
pilot's helmet.

If anyone knows who to was I'd love to get the photos :-)

BTW, one of the brothers (Jim Springer) was in all the papers last month in a
story about a big rescue in the Tetons. He gets dropped in on the end of a long
tether at all altitudes of the Tetons. I can ask him what helicopter they use
if anyone is interested.

-- Charlie Springer

[Regnirps]

steve gallacci wrote:

<<Actually, that was a windy situation on a very steep slope that ended
with a rotor strike (if I remember correctly). The footage clearly
showed the machine hovering, attempting to get in close, then things got
bad. It was on Mt Hood or Mt Rainier. >>

Mt. Hood. There was a fierce cold air downdraft like a microburst and I recall
some other problem.

-- Charlie Springer

[Buzzer]

On 20 Nov 2003 04:10:22 GMT, (Regnirps) wrote:

>steve gallacci wrote:
>
><<Actually, that was a windy situation on a very steep slope that ended
>with a rotor strike (if I remember correctly). The footage clearly
>showed the machine hovering, attempting to get in close, then things got
>bad. It was on Mt Hood or Mt Rainier. >>
>
>Mt. Hood. There was a fierce cold air downdraft like a microburst and I recall
>some other problem.
>
>-- Charlie Springer

January 13, 2003
"The Army Reserve company of Fort Lewis-based CH-47D helicopters has
been called up to active duty. The unit's 200 or so soldiers and most
of its 15 Chinooks will head out to an undisclosed assignment overseas
sometime in the next ..."

Jun 26, 2002 Mt. Rainier, Washington 14,408 feet.
"Unlike a similar crash last month on Oregon's Mount Hood, the crew
members involved in Tuesday's accident walked away uninjured. The two
rescuers in the Bell Jet Ranger later trudged up the mountain to
assist an injured climber.
Both the twin-bladed Chinook and the smaller Jet Ranger helicopters
are routinely used during rescues on Mount Rainier. Chinooks, capable
of flying to Rainier's summit, are provided ..."

May 30, 2002 Mt. Hood Oregon 11,240 ft.
"The helicopter could be seen wobbling before rotors apparently
clipped the edge of the mountain as it attempted to maneuver for a
rescue above 10,000 feet shortly before 2 p.m. PT..."
"...The Pave Hawk helicopter, a highly modified version of the Army
Black Hawk, plummeted into the snow on the side of a ridge where it
rolled over and over until it came to a stop at the bottom..."
"...The helicopter was part of the 939th Air Force Reserve Rescue
Wing, and was in training for assignment in the war on terror
overseas, Pentagon officials said. Pave Hawks are most often used in
combat rescue missions..."

[Mary Shafer]

On 19 Nov 2003 18:32:38 -0800, (The
Enlightenment) wrote:

> The French built a High Altitide Helicopter called the Aerospatiale
> SA-315B Lama. Hovered at 17000 ft. It was for the Indian Airforce.

I think this airplane ended up being used on Denali by the US Forestry
Service rescue folks. I read a book by a woman who had climbed Denali
at the time of a rescue effort and she mentioned seeing this helo. If
only I could find the book again--the only thing I remember is that
she used both her first and middle names, which isn't much help when
trying to track a book down on Amazon.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

[Allen]

"The Enlightenment" > wrote in message
om...
> (B2431) wrote in message
>...
> >
SNIP
>
> > >> The French built a High Altitide Helicopter called the
Aerospatiale
> SA-315B Lama. Hovered at 17000 ft. It was for the Indian Airforce.
> http://www.evergreenaviation.com/EHI/specsheets/lama.html
>
> It involved installing the Rotor and Mechanicals of the Allouette III
> into the body of the Allouette II.
>
> The Russian Helocopters (eg Mi 24 Hind) becuase of their 5 blade
> rotors have better high altitude performance than their 4 bladed US
> equivalents.
>
> Some Russian sounding guy posted stuff from a Russian AF General with
> Grudging but usefull Advice on this just before the Afghanistan
> invasion.

FYI:

http://www.globalaircraft.org/planes/mi-24_hind.pl

Check out the max altitude numbers.

Allen

[Ken Duffey]

Regnirps wrote:

> << Thanks for the info guys. I checked out a web site with articles by the
> crews of the CH-47Ds that worked the mountain ranges in Afghanistan.
> They frequently did landings at 17000 - 20000 ft. All very interesting
> and informative. >>
>
> In about '68 my brothers saw a Chinook lift a broken Huey from the summit of
> Mt. Rainier -- greater than 14,000 feet. My brother lent the photos to one of
> the pilots to copy and we never got them back. OTOH, I still have the Huey
> pilot's helmet.

I have a photo poster of a Russian Mil Mi--26 'Halo' lifting a downed MH-47 Chinook
in Aghanistan.

I don't know the altitude - but the capability of the Mi-26 is impressive.

It makes the Chinook look like a Huey !

> If anyone knows who to was I'd love to get the photos :-)
>
> BTW, one of the brothers (Jim Springer) was in all the papers last month in a
> story about a big rescue in the Tetons. He gets dropped in on the end of a long
> tether at all altitudes of the Tetons. I can ask him what helicopter they use
> if anyone is interested.
>
> -- Charlie Springer

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++
Ken Duffey - Flanker Freak & Russian Aviation Enthusiast
Flankers Website - http://www.flankers.co.uk/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++

[The Enlightenment]

Mary Shafer > wrote in message >...
> On 19 Nov 2003 18:32:38 -0800, (The
> Enlightenment) wrote:
>
> > The French built a High Altitide Helicopter called the Aerospatiale
> > SA-315B Lama. Hovered at 17000 ft. It was for the Indian Airforce.
>
> I think this airplane ended up being used on Denali by the US Forestry
> Service rescue folks. I read a book by a woman who had climbed Denali
> at the time of a rescue effort and she mentioned seeing this helo. If
> only I could find the book again--the only thing I remember is that
> she used both her first and middle names, which isn't much help when
> trying to track a book down on Amazon.
>
> Mary

One of the targets or challenges for Helicopter designers should be an
out of ground effect hover of 30,000 feet with a usefull load (1
stetcher patient and medical orderly). This in theory would allow
landing on Everest.

In a world of bizzare records this must be one of the more usefull
quests as it would allow helicopter rescue anywhere.

Can Steve Fosset or Richard Branson be interested?

The other quests is some sort of ducted fan platform that can hover
along side buildings or land in very confined urban environemnts. We
need to be able to land on a suburban main road or city road.
Helicopters can't do it because of rotor clearence and safety issues
while ambulences can't do it because of traffic.

To save peoples lives you must get there within 10-15 minutes.

I am suprised that this hasn't been achieved. The Pieseki flying
Jeeps worked although they couldn't land on uneven ground or in high
gusts.

When modified with modern quadraplex fly by wire controls and
stability augmentation systems (accelerometers and solid state MEMS
and laser gyros), modern gas turbines and lighter modern materials
they must surely be able to solve the problems of the earlier Pieseki
Jeeps.

Modern 3rd Generation Cellphones will have "location serivices".
Imagine being able to load emergency call coordinates into the
naviagation system of such an air-ambulance jeep. A rooftop in a
small hospital could provide a takeoff to touchdown response of 5
minutes out to 10 miles.

That even makes economic sense. If every city in the USA with more
than 1 million people had one of these what would the market be?

[Regnirps]

Mary, Amazon has 150,000 books in digital form so a text search can be made. I
don't know if the system is online yet but they are aiming for over a million
books. They think it will be the best way to sell books ever, and they may be
right.

-- Charlie Springer

[Mary Shafer]

On 21 Nov 2003 03:58:25 GMT, (Regnirps) wrote:

> Mary, Amazon has 150,000 books in digital form so a text search can be made. I
> don't know if the system is online yet but they are aiming for over a million
> books. They think it will be the best way to sell books ever, and they may be
> right.

They well could be, I think. However, I'm not interested enough in
the Lama helo to go to any effort to find the book.

The book I would like to find is too old, and too insignificant, to
ever show up in digital form on Amazon. It's a schlocky story about a
bunch of fighter pilots, flying F-15s out of Langley AFB, I think,
with some sort of contrived drama and happy ending. The reason I'd
like to find it is the description of the "dead bug" game, which I
think was a "dead Klingon" version. The author's first name may have
been "Maggie" and the title may have had "Eagle(s)" in it. Or maybe
not. I don't expect to ever find this book, obviously.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

[Pete]

"Mary Shafer" > wrote

> The book I would like to find is too old, and too insignificant, to
> ever show up in digital form on Amazon. It's a schlocky story about a
> bunch of fighter pilots, flying F-15s out of Langley AFB, I think,
> with some sort of contrived drama and happy ending. The reason I'd
> like to find it is the description of the "dead bug" game, which I
> think was a "dead Klingon" version. The author's first name may have
> been "Maggie" and the title may have had "Eagle(s)" in it. Or maybe
> not. I don't expect to ever find this book, obviously.
>
> Mary

Might this be it:
http://www.maggiedavis.com/file/eaglesinfo.html

http://www.fictionwise.com/ebooks/eBook1127.htm
Maggie Davis - Eagles 1980
[excerpt]
"Ladies and gentlemen," a voice said from the overhead loudspeakers, "on
your right you will see the F-15 Eagle, the Air Force's new supersonic air
superiority fighter, taxiing to the runway for takeoff. In a few minutes,
the F-15 will perform a thrilling flight demonstration to illustrate to all
of us here today this remarkable aircraft's capabilities."

available in various forms of eBook for $7

Pete
embrace the google maggie+eagle+f-15 = the above link

[[email protected]]

"Pete" > wrote:

>
>"Mary Shafer" > wrote
>
>> The book I would like to find is too old, and too insignificant, to
>> ever show up in digital form on Amazon. It's a schlocky story about a
>> bunch of fighter pilots, flying F-15s out of Langley AFB, I think,
>> with some sort of contrived drama and happy ending. The reason I'd
>> like to find it is the description of the "dead bug" game, which I
>> think was a "dead Klingon" version. The author's first name may have
>> been "Maggie" and the title may have had "Eagle(s)" in it. Or maybe
>> not. I don't expect to ever find this book, obviously.
>>
>> Mary
>
>Might this be it:
>http://www.maggiedavis.com/file/eaglesinfo.html
>
>http://www.fictionwise.com/ebooks/eBook1127.htm
>Maggie Davis - Eagles 1980
>[excerpt]
>"Ladies and gentlemen," a voice said from the overhead loudspeakers, "on
>your right you will see the F-15 Eagle, the Air Force's new supersonic air
>superiority fighter, taxiing to the runway for takeoff. In a few minutes,
>the F-15 will perform a thrilling flight demonstration to illustrate to all
>of us here today this remarkable aircraft's capabilities."
>
>available in various forms of eBook for $7
>
>Pete
>embrace the google maggie+eagle+f-15 = the above link
>

The google rocks...all bow down to the google...
--

-Gord.

[Mary Shafer]

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 04:27:11 GMT, "Pete" > wrote:

>
> "Mary Shafer" > wrote
>
> > The book I would like to find is too old, and too insignificant, to
> > ever show up in digital form on Amazon. It's a schlocky story about a
> > bunch of fighter pilots, flying F-15s out of Langley AFB, I think,
> > with some sort of contrived drama and happy ending. The reason I'd
> > like to find it is the description of the "dead bug" game, which I
> > think was a "dead Klingon" version. The author's first name may have
> > been "Maggie" and the title may have had "Eagle(s)" in it. Or maybe
> > not. I don't expect to ever find this book, obviously.
>
> Might this be it:
> http://www.maggiedavis.com/file/eaglesinfo.html
>
> http://www.fictionwise.com/ebooks/eBook1127.htm
> Maggie Davis - Eagles 1980
> [excerpt]
> "Ladies and gentlemen," a voice said from the overhead loudspeakers, "on
> your right you will see the F-15 Eagle, the Air Force's new supersonic air
> superiority fighter, taxiing to the runway for takeoff. In a few minutes,
> the F-15 will perform a thrilling flight demonstration to illustrate to all
> of us here today this remarkable aircraft's capabilities."

Dear God. 1980. Twenty-three years ago. Come to think of it, I
borrowed it from the guy who was our NLO (Naval Liaison Officer, for
the obligatory military aviation reference) before Fast Eddie and Ed
came to Dryden in 1983 (he's retiring at the beginning of next year).

I was at Langley Research Center, which is at Langley AFB, one Friday
back about then, watching the F-15 performing a thrilling flight
demonstration to illustrate this remarkable aircraft's capabilities
and it decided to demonstrate the remarkable capability to stream a
flame the length of the airplane from one engine. Needless to say, it
then demonstrated the capabilities of quickly shutting an engine down
and getting on the ground.

Of course, I had previously seen the remarkable airplane illustrate
its capability of having an MEA (Mid-air Engine Anomaly), aka a
disintegrating F-100 compressor disk, for the first time, so I was
prepared for a surprise.

> available in various forms of eBook for $7

I don't do e-books, but now I can try abebooks.

> embrace the google maggie+eagle+f-15 = the above link

I never thought to try google. I tried abebooks with "Eagle" and
"Eagles" and got too many hits to bear, although I did notice Anton
Meyer's "Once an Eagle" and reread it (I recommend it highly, even
though it's about the Army and not aviation).

Thank you very much.

Mary
--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

[Kevin Brooks]

Mary Shafer > wrote in message >...

<snip>

>
> I never thought to try google. I tried abebooks with "Eagle" and
> "Eagles" and got too many hits to bear, although I did notice Anton
> Meyer's "Once an Eagle" and reread it (I recommend it highly, even
> though it's about the Army and not aviation).

One of the real modern classics of the military genre. Spent eons on
the Army Chief of Staff's recommended professional reading list, and
is probably still on it. There was a rather decent (and compared to
most similar efforts rather true to the book) miniseries adaptation of
it on TV back in the late seventies; Sam Elliot played the role of
"Sam Damon".

Brooks

>
> Thank you very much.
>
> Mary

[Lynn Coffelt]

> The current altitude record for a small helicopter is:
>
> FAI Class E1b - Altitude Without Payload - takeoff weight 500-1000 Kg
> International: 40,820 ft; 12,442 m.
> Jean Boulet (France)
> Alouette SA 315-001 Lama
> Artouste IIIB 735 KW engine
> Istres, France June 21, 1972
>
> John Hairell )

Well then, poor "Pedro", a stock H-43 didn't do too badly in 1959 at
somewhere near 10,000 m., wooden blades a'flappin'!

Old Chief Lynn

[Guy alcala]

John Hairell > wrote in message >...

<snip>

Coming into the thread a bit late.

> The current altitude record for a small helicopter is:
>
> FAI Class E1b - Altitude Without Payload - takeoff weight 500-1000 Kg
> International: 40,820 ft; 12,442 m.
> Jean Boulet (France)
> Alouette SA 315-001 Lama
> Artouste IIIB 735 KW engine
> Istres, France June 21, 1972

It should be pointed out that Boulet achieved the helicopter (not just
the class) absolute altitude record above by climbing the Lama until
it ran out of fuel, and then making the world's longest autorotation
descent. Not exactly representative of practical operational
capability. But the Lama may still be the best high altitude light
utility chopper, even all these years later -- it's still in
commercial service in parts of the world that need its hot/high
capability, although its operating costs rule it out for more routine
work.

In addition to the above altitude record, it also holds the (far more
useful) record for highest landing and takeoff. In 1969, an SA-315B
making demonstration flights for the Indian military, carrying a crew
of two and 308 lb. (120 kg)of fuel, landed and took off again at
24,600 ft. (7,500m) in the Indian Himalaya, so lifting a pilot and
single patient from the lower end of the Western Cwm of Everest (ca.
21,000 ft) should be (relatively) easy (depending on the density
altitude and the winds) for a stripped-down Lama, especially as you
can cache fuel at Everest Base Camp (18,000 feet) a mile or two away
for the trip back down the valley to the hospital.

Unlike the Indian army (for whom it was originally developed; they
call it the Cheetah), the Nepalese military doesn't have any Lamas.
Getting a Squirrel (Ecureil) up that high is quite a feat, and Col.
Madan has rightly been recognized for the rescue. While lift is a
problem at such heights, engine limitations (temps, torque) and
control issues (loss of tail rotor effectiveness, etc.) are often of
equal or greater importance.

Even assuming that adequate control in high, gusty mountain winds and
sufficient power/lift was available to allow routine operations at
such heights, the market for helos that meet these specialized
requirements would be extremely small. Unless your army has got a
good chance of needing to fight in the Himalayas, Andes or the few
other ranges of similar height, such performance isn't routinely
necessary, and you generally sacrifice much else (speed,
maneuverability, operating costs) to get it.

In Afghanistan the U.S. military had such a requirement for the first
time, but fortunately the CH/MH-47s (and probably Marine CH-53Es) had
the ability to operate at such heights with useful (albeit
considerably reduced) payloads. From what I've read the SpecOps
MH-47s were transiting at up to 18,000 feet or so (pax would need
supplemental O2) to get over the Hindu Kush (one of the Himalayan
sub-chains; the highest point in Afghanistan is over 24,000 feet, but
they didn't need to go that high) from their base in one of the
surrounding 'stans, and then making insertions or extractions at
heights in the 10-13,000 foot MSL range. MH-60s were able to get high
enough along with a reasonable payload, but not while carrying
sufficient fuel to eliminate the need for AARs, given the transit
distances involved. Sikorsky S-70 (H-60) altitude versus weight
graphs for IGE and OGE hover and service ceiling are available at
Sikorsky's website.

The Mi-8/17 family (the Mi-24 uses the same powertrain and rotor
system) has also developed a reputation for good high altitude
performance; the Indian military was apparently carrying supplies and
doing troop movements with them at altitudes up to 15,000 feet MSL
(density altitudes probably a couple of thousand feet higher) during
the Kargil fighting in 1999.

BTW, AFAIK the highest piston-engined helo rescue was by a civil
Hiller UH-12E on Mt. McKinley back in the early '60s (IIRR). Two
climbers were brought down (singly) from 18,000 ft. +, and IIRC the
UH-12 in question had a normally aspirated engine rather than a
turbocharged one (the latter may not have even been in production yet,
but I forget).

Guy