MMU 5 DP lost comm question

[Andrey Serbinenko]

A question to IR pilots.

Suppose we have the following situation: a flight departing from
MMU rw 23, cleared as follows: "Morristown 5 dep, vectors to BIGGY,
then V3, MAZIE, etc... 2000 feet, expect 4000 10 minutes after
departure, dep freq, squawk etc..."

Now, during climb-out via heading 210 we lose communication. It is IMC.
Standard question: what altitudes and routing you'd fly? The
aircraft we're flying is /U, so we can't navigate direct BIGGY.

First question: would you keep flying the DP, i.e. left turn 160?
If so, for how long would you fly heading 160 after you turn? Lost
comm instructions in the DP do not apply to us since we're southbound.
In order to get onto V3 you'd probably need to fly direct SBJ, and
proceed from there, but SBJ is not part of your clearance?

Second question -- the altitude: OROCA in the quadrant is 2900. MSA
provided by Jepp for CAT is 2000 in this sector. Would you climb
to 4000 right away, or you'd wait for 10 mins? MEAs of the airways
in that vicinity are 2300 and 3000 feet.


Andrey

[pgbnh]

How about Direct SBJ, pick up V3 and be on your way
"Andrey Serbinenko" > wrote in message
...
>
> A question to IR pilots.
>
> Suppose we have the following situation: a flight departing from
> MMU rw 23, cleared as follows: "Morristown 5 dep, vectors to BIGGY,
> then V3, MAZIE, etc... 2000 feet, expect 4000 10 minutes after
> departure, dep freq, squawk etc..."
>
> Now, during climb-out via heading 210 we lose communication. It is IMC.
> Standard question: what altitudes and routing you'd fly? The
> aircraft we're flying is /U, so we can't navigate direct BIGGY.
>
> First question: would you keep flying the DP, i.e. left turn 160?
> If so, for how long would you fly heading 160 after you turn? Lost
> comm instructions in the DP do not apply to us since we're southbound.
> In order to get onto V3 you'd probably need to fly direct SBJ, and
> proceed from there, but SBJ is not part of your clearance?
>
> Second question -- the altitude: OROCA in the quadrant is 2900. MSA
> provided by Jepp for CAT is 2000 in this sector. Would you climb
> to 4000 right away, or you'd wait for 10 mins? MEAs of the airways
> in that vicinity are 2300 and 3000 feet.
>
>
> Andrey
>
>

[J.Kahn]

pgbnh wrote:
> How about Direct SBJ, pick up V3 and be on your way
> "Andrey Serbinenko" > wrote in message
> ...
>> A question to IR pilots.
>>
>> Suppose we have the following situation: a flight departing from
>> MMU rw 23, cleared as follows: "Morristown 5 dep, vectors to BIGGY,
>> then V3, MAZIE, etc... 2000 feet, expect 4000 10 minutes after
>> departure, dep freq, squawk etc..."
>>
>> Now, during climb-out via heading 210 we lose communication. It is IMC.
>> Standard question: what altitudes and routing you'd fly? The
>> aircraft we're flying is /U, so we can't navigate direct BIGGY.
>>
>> First question: would you keep flying the DP, i.e. left turn 160?
>> If so, for how long would you fly heading 160 after you turn? Lost
>> comm instructions in the DP do not apply to us since we're southbound.
>> In order to get onto V3 you'd probably need to fly direct SBJ, and
>> proceed from there, but SBJ is not part of your clearance?
>>
>> Second question -- the altitude: OROCA in the quadrant is 2900. MSA
>> provided by Jepp for CAT is 2000 in this sector. Would you climb
>> to 4000 right away, or you'd wait for 10 mins? MEAs of the airways
>> in that vicinity are 2300 and 3000 feet.
>>
>>
>> Andrey
>>
>>
>
>
I would wait until 10 min to climb to 4000, and climb initially only to
the appropriate minimum IFR altitude for that sector or MSA or whatever
was appropriate, if higher than the current vectoring alt. The EAC time
is probably to get clear of inbound traffic above, so going there right
away may cause ATC to have to reroute traffic over you.

You would probably be ok to proceed direct on a 45 deg intercept heading
to V3 if that made more sense then direct SBJ. I think that in a comm
failure situation where options are presented, you are ok as long as you
act reasonably and don't head off in odd unexpected directions. ATC is
going to deduce what you are doing pretty quickly and make allowances.

John

[Peter Clark]

On 12 Nov 2007 04:10:11 GMT, Andrey Serbinenko
> wrote:


>Now, during climb-out via heading 210 we lose communication. It is IMC.
>Standard question: what altitudes and routing you'd fly? The
>aircraft we're flying is /U, so we can't navigate direct BIGGY.

I'd probably decline the clearance or ask for vectors SBJ instead
since I can't do the direct part, but if forced to attempt this I'd
likely fly last given heading until getting onto an intercept for SBJ
R-237 or R067, then turn towards BIGGY.

[Andrey Serbinenko]

> I would wait until 10 min to climb to 4000, and climb initially only to

I have two doubts about that:

First, it seems to contradict item iii of the following reg:
FAR Sec. 91.185 - IFR operations: Two-way radio communications failure.
-----------
(2) Altitude. At the highest of the following altitudes or flight levels for the route segment being flown:

(i) The altitude or flight level assigned in the last ATC clearance received;

(ii) The minimum altitude (converted, if appropriate, to minimum flight level as prescribed in .91.121(c)) for IFR operations; or

(iii) The altitude or flight level ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance.
-----------

It lists "expected" along with everything else, and doesn't mention anywhere
that you should wait for the EFC time to pass before using it.

Secondly, while being radar-vectored I have never had to wait for ten minutes:
three-four minutes maximum, which makes me think that staying low for that
long may not in fact be desirable. In particular, staying at 2000 feet while
maneuvering in southerly direction for too long can put me in close proximity
to TEB ILS rw 6 approach path.

> You would probably be ok to proceed direct on a 45 deg intercept heading
> to V3 if that made more sense then direct SBJ. I think that in a comm

I agree with that. My only concern would be the fact that the DP is
"obstacle", and it mandates making a turn to 160 after getting to 2000 feet,
presumably keeping me away from something. But it doesn't specify for how
long I should stay on that heading before resuming enroute navigation.



Andrey

[[email protected]]

In this day and age, anyone who flies IFR in IMC withut a GPS
handheld, which would enable you to fly direct BIGGY, is just plain
foolish...





On 12 Nov 2007 04:10:11 GMT, Andrey Serbinenko
> wrote:

>
>A question to IR pilots.
>
>Suppose we have the following situation: a flight departing from
>MMU rw 23, cleared as follows: "Morristown 5 dep, vectors to BIGGY,
>then V3, MAZIE, etc... 2000 feet, expect 4000 10 minutes after
>departure, dep freq, squawk etc..."
>
>Now, during climb-out via heading 210 we lose communication. It is IMC.
>Standard question: what altitudes and routing you'd fly? The
>aircraft we're flying is /U, so we can't navigate direct BIGGY.
>
>First question: would you keep flying the DP, i.e. left turn 160?
>If so, for how long would you fly heading 160 after you turn? Lost
>comm instructions in the DP do not apply to us since we're southbound.
>In order to get onto V3 you'd probably need to fly direct SBJ, and
>proceed from there, but SBJ is not part of your clearance?
>
>Second question -- the altitude: OROCA in the quadrant is 2900. MSA
>provided by Jepp for CAT is 2000 in this sector. Would you climb
>to 4000 right away, or you'd wait for 10 mins? MEAs of the airways
>in that vicinity are 2300 and 3000 feet.
>
>
>Andrey
>

[pgbnh]

Ummm. I think :in this day and age anyone who flies IFR in IMC WITH a GPS
handheld, which would enable you to fly direct BIGGY, is just plain illegal.

There are reasons that IFR certified GPS systems are certified
> wrote in message
...
>
> In this day and age, anyone who flies IFR in IMC withut a GPS
> handheld, which would enable you to fly direct BIGGY, is just plain
> foolish...
>
>
>
>
>
> On 12 Nov 2007 04:10:11 GMT, Andrey Serbinenko
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>A question to IR pilots.
>>
>>Suppose we have the following situation: a flight departing from
>>MMU rw 23, cleared as follows: "Morristown 5 dep, vectors to BIGGY,
>>then V3, MAZIE, etc... 2000 feet, expect 4000 10 minutes after
>>departure, dep freq, squawk etc..."
>>
>>Now, during climb-out via heading 210 we lose communication. It is IMC.
>>Standard question: what altitudes and routing you'd fly? The
>>aircraft we're flying is /U, so we can't navigate direct BIGGY.
>>
>>First question: would you keep flying the DP, i.e. left turn 160?
>>If so, for how long would you fly heading 160 after you turn? Lost
>>comm instructions in the DP do not apply to us since we're southbound.
>>In order to get onto V3 you'd probably need to fly direct SBJ, and
>>proceed from there, but SBJ is not part of your clearance?
>>
>>Second question -- the altitude: OROCA in the quadrant is 2900. MSA
>>provided by Jepp for CAT is 2000 in this sector. Would you climb
>>to 4000 right away, or you'd wait for 10 mins? MEAs of the airways
>>in that vicinity are 2300 and 3000 feet.
>>
>>
>>Andrey
>>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Andrey Serbinenko" > wrote in message
...
>
> A question to IR pilots.
>
> Suppose we have the following situation: a flight departing from
> MMU rw 23, cleared as follows: "Morristown 5 dep, vectors to BIGGY,
> then V3, MAZIE, etc... 2000 feet, expect 4000 10 minutes after
> departure, dep freq, squawk etc..."
>
> Now, during climb-out via heading 210 we lose communication. It is IMC.
> Standard question: what altitudes and routing you'd fly? The
> aircraft we're flying is /U, so we can't navigate direct BIGGY.
>
> First question: would you keep flying the DP, i.e. left turn 160?
>

No.


>
> If so, for how long would you fly heading 160 after you turn? Lost
> comm instructions in the DP do not apply to us since we're southbound.
> In order to get onto V3 you'd probably need to fly direct SBJ, and
> proceed from there, but SBJ is not part of your clearance?
>

The DP states "....as per notes or via vectors to assigned route/fix." The
note for BIGGY states, "departures expect vectors via SBJ/SBJ R-237." Looks
to me like SBJ is part of the clearance.


>
> Second question -- the altitude: OROCA in the quadrant is 2900. MSA
> provided by Jepp for CAT is 2000 in this sector. Would you climb
> to 4000 right away, or you'd wait for 10 mins? MEAs of the airways
> in that vicinity are 2300 and 3000 feet.
>

I'd proceed direct to SBJ and join V3, maintain 2000 until BIGGY, climb to
2500, climb to 4000 ten minutes after departure.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Peter Clark" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'd probably decline the clearance or ask for vectors SBJ instead
> since I can't do the direct part, but if forced to attempt this I'd
> likely fly last given heading until getting onto an intercept for SBJ
> R-237 or R067, then turn towards BIGGY.
>

What's the direct part?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"pgbnh" > wrote in message
...
>
> Ummm. I think :in this day and age anyone who flies IFR in IMC WITH a GPS
> handheld, which would enable you to fly direct BIGGY, is just plain
> illegal.
>

Oh? What law would flying IFR in IMC WITH a handheld GPS violate?

[Peter Clark]

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:04:39 -0600, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote:

>
>"Peter Clark" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> I'd probably decline the clearance or ask for vectors SBJ instead
>> since I can't do the direct part, but if forced to attempt this I'd
>> likely fly last given heading until getting onto an intercept for SBJ
>> R-237 or R067, then turn towards BIGGY.
>>
>
>What's the direct part?

"Expect radar vectors BIGGY" then losing comms while on a vector?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Peter Clark" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Expect radar vectors BIGGY" then losing comms while on a vector?
>

What's the direct part?

[J.Kahn]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "pgbnh" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Ummm. I think :in this day and age anyone who flies IFR in IMC WITH a GPS
>> handheld, which would enable you to fly direct BIGGY, is just plain
>> illegal.
>>
>
> Oh? What law would flying IFR in IMC WITH a handheld GPS violate?
>
>

Not RAIM or WAAS?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"J.Kahn" > wrote in message
...
>
> Not RAIM or WAAS?
>

So what?

[Ray Andraka]

J.Kahn wrote:
> Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
>
>> "pgbnh" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> Ummm. I think :in this day and age anyone who flies IFR in IMC WITH a
>>> GPS handheld, which would enable you to fly direct BIGGY, is just
>>> plain illegal.
>>>
>>
>> Oh? What law would flying IFR in IMC WITH a handheld GPS violate?
>>
>
> Not RAIM or WAAS?

Nothing wrong with using a handheld GPS in IFR. It can't be your
primary means of navigation, meaning you should be referring to your
panel mounted nav instruments for primary. However, having a GPS adds
considerably to situational awareness, and can save your bacon in an
emergency. It is even legal to navigate using one for primary
navigation if in radar coverage and given a "vector" to the waypoint.
You tell ATC what heading you need and they give you that as a vector.

[J.Kahn]

Andrey Serbinenko wrote:
>> I would wait until 10 min to climb to 4000, and climb initially only to
>
> I have two doubts about that:
>
> First, it seems to contradict item iii of the following reg:
> FAR Sec. 91.185 - IFR operations: Two-way radio communications failure.
> -----------
> (2) Altitude. At the highest of the following altitudes or flight levels for the route segment being flown:
>
> (i) The altitude or flight level assigned in the last ATC clearance received;
>
> (ii) The minimum altitude (converted, if appropriate, to minimum flight level as prescribed in .91.121(c)) for IFR operations; or
>
> (iii) The altitude or flight level ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance.
> -----------
>
> It lists "expected" along with everything else, and doesn't mention anywhere
> that you should wait for the EFC time to pass before using it.
>
> Secondly, while being radar-vectored I have never had to wait for ten minutes:
> three-four minutes maximum, which makes me think that staying low for that
> long may not in fact be desirable. In particular, staying at 2000 feet while
> maneuvering in southerly direction for too long can put me in close proximity
> to TEB ILS rw 6 approach path.
>

I should mention that I am in Canada and the IFR regs are more or less
the same, but in the Canadian AIM there is an explicit statement in
reference to altitude in a comm failure situation: "the altitude or FL
that ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance (the pilot
shall commence climb to this altitude/FL at the time/point specified by
ATC to expect further clearance/altitude change)."

The way you quoted the FAR above it certainly implies that you should
start climbing right away. This is a significant difference in the
lost comm procedures between Can/US.

John

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Ray Andraka" > wrote in message
...
>
> Nothing wrong with using a handheld GPS in IFR. It can't be your primary
> means of navigation, meaning you should be referring to your panel mounted
> nav instruments for primary. However, having a GPS adds considerably to
> situational awareness, and can save your bacon in an emergency. It is
> even legal to navigate using one for primary navigation if in radar
> coverage and given a "vector" to the waypoint. You tell ATC what heading
> you need and they give you that as a vector.
>

It is even legal to navigate using a handheld GPS for primary navigation in
a radar environment without a "vector" to anywhere.

[[email protected]]

Wrong..

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:41:19 -0500, "pgbnh" >
wrote:

>Ummm. I think :in this day and age anyone who flies IFR in IMC WITH a GPS
>handheld, which would enable you to fly direct BIGGY, is just plain illegal.
>
>There are reasons that IFR certified GPS systems are certified
> wrote in message
...
>>
>> In this day and age, anyone who flies IFR in IMC withut a GPS
>> handheld, which would enable you to fly direct BIGGY, is just plain
>> foolish...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12 Nov 2007 04:10:11 GMT, Andrey Serbinenko
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>A question to IR pilots.
>>>
>>>Suppose we have the following situation: a flight departing from
>>>MMU rw 23, cleared as follows: "Morristown 5 dep, vectors to BIGGY,
>>>then V3, MAZIE, etc... 2000 feet, expect 4000 10 minutes after
>>>departure, dep freq, squawk etc..."
>>>
>>>Now, during climb-out via heading 210 we lose communication. It is IMC.
>>>Standard question: what altitudes and routing you'd fly? The
>>>aircraft we're flying is /U, so we can't navigate direct BIGGY.
>>>
>>>First question: would you keep flying the DP, i.e. left turn 160?
>>>If so, for how long would you fly heading 160 after you turn? Lost
>>>comm instructions in the DP do not apply to us since we're southbound.
>>>In order to get onto V3 you'd probably need to fly direct SBJ, and
>>>proceed from there, but SBJ is not part of your clearance?
>>>
>>>Second question -- the altitude: OROCA in the quadrant is 2900. MSA
>>>provided by Jepp for CAT is 2000 in this sector. Would you climb
>>>to 4000 right away, or you'd wait for 10 mins? MEAs of the airways
>>>in that vicinity are 2300 and 3000 feet.
>>>
>>>
>>>Andrey
>>>
>

[pgbnh]

"Illegal" is the wrong word. Navigating by a handheld GPS as the primary
source of navigation (as was suggested in the prior posting) is not
permitted. As an adjunct to some other, primary navigation device, certainly
GPS makes good sense.
The prior poster suggested just using the handheld to go direct BIGGY.
"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
...
>
> "pgbnh" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Ummm. I think :in this day and age anyone who flies IFR in IMC WITH a GPS
>> handheld, which would enable you to fly direct BIGGY, is just plain
>> illegal.
>>
>
> Oh? What law would flying IFR in IMC WITH a handheld GPS violate?
>
>

[pgbnh]

See earlier post. "Illegal" was the wrong word. But, doing what you
advocated - navigating direct BIGGY using the handheld (AS THE PRIMARY NAV
SOURCE) is not permitted. The OP already indicated he could not navigate
direct BIGGY because he was not properly equipped.
> wrote in message
...
> Wrong..
>
> On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:41:19 -0500, "pgbnh" >
> wrote:
>
>>Ummm. I think :in this day and age anyone who flies IFR in IMC WITH a GPS
>>handheld, which would enable you to fly direct BIGGY, is just plain
>>illegal.
>>
>>There are reasons that IFR certified GPS systems are certified
> wrote in message
...
>>>
>>> In this day and age, anyone who flies IFR in IMC withut a GPS
>>> handheld, which would enable you to fly direct BIGGY, is just plain
>>> foolish...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12 Nov 2007 04:10:11 GMT, Andrey Serbinenko
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>A question to IR pilots.
>>>>
>>>>Suppose we have the following situation: a flight departing from
>>>>MMU rw 23, cleared as follows: "Morristown 5 dep, vectors to BIGGY,
>>>>then V3, MAZIE, etc... 2000 feet, expect 4000 10 minutes after
>>>>departure, dep freq, squawk etc..."
>>>>
>>>>Now, during climb-out via heading 210 we lose communication. It is IMC.
>>>>Standard question: what altitudes and routing you'd fly? The
>>>>aircraft we're flying is /U, so we can't navigate direct BIGGY.
>>>>
>>>>First question: would you keep flying the DP, i.e. left turn 160?
>>>>If so, for how long would you fly heading 160 after you turn? Lost
>>>>comm instructions in the DP do not apply to us since we're southbound.
>>>>In order to get onto V3 you'd probably need to fly direct SBJ, and
>>>>proceed from there, but SBJ is not part of your clearance?
>>>>
>>>>Second question -- the altitude: OROCA in the quadrant is 2900. MSA
>>>>provided by Jepp for CAT is 2000 in this sector. Would you climb
>>>>to 4000 right away, or you'd wait for 10 mins? MEAs of the airways
>>>>in that vicinity are 2300 and 3000 feet.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Andrey
>>>>
>>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"pgbnh" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Illegal" is the wrong word. Navigating by a handheld GPS as the primary
> source of navigation (as was suggested in the prior posting) is not
> permitted.

Is a permit required?

[[email protected]]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with "using the handheld to go
direct BIGGY" any more than there is something wrong with using your
watch and compass to go direct BIGGY.
(or your sextant or your ham sandwich, for that matter)



On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 12:31:13 -0500, "pgbnh" >
wrote:

>"Illegal" is the wrong word. Navigating by a handheld GPS as the primary
>source of navigation (as was suggested in the prior posting) is not
>permitted. As an adjunct to some other, primary navigation device, certainly
>GPS makes good sense.
>The prior poster suggested just using the handheld to go direct BIGGY.
>"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "pgbnh" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> Ummm. I think :in this day and age anyone who flies IFR in IMC WITH a GPS
>>> handheld, which would enable you to fly direct BIGGY, is just plain
>>> illegal.
>>>
>>
>> Oh? What law would flying IFR in IMC WITH a handheld GPS violate?
>>
>>
>

[[email protected]]

not properly equpped?

No VOR receivers on board?.




On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 12:34:14 -0500, "pgbnh" >
wrote:

>See earlier post. "Illegal" was the wrong word. But, doing what you
>advocated - navigating direct BIGGY using the handheld (AS THE PRIMARY NAV
>SOURCE) is not permitted. The OP already indicated he could not navigate
>direct BIGGY because he was not properly equipped.
> wrote in message
...
>> Wrong..
>>
>> On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:41:19 -0500, "pgbnh" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Ummm. I think :in this day and age anyone who flies IFR in IMC WITH a GPS
>>>handheld, which would enable you to fly direct BIGGY, is just plain
>>>illegal.
>>>
>>>There are reasons that IFR certified GPS systems are certified
> wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>> In this day and age, anyone who flies IFR in IMC withut a GPS
>>>> handheld, which would enable you to fly direct BIGGY, is just plain
>>>> foolish...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12 Nov 2007 04:10:11 GMT, Andrey Serbinenko
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>A question to IR pilots.
>>>>>
>>>>>Suppose we have the following situation: a flight departing from
>>>>>MMU rw 23, cleared as follows: "Morristown 5 dep, vectors to BIGGY,
>>>>>then V3, MAZIE, etc... 2000 feet, expect 4000 10 minutes after
>>>>>departure, dep freq, squawk etc..."
>>>>>
>>>>>Now, during climb-out via heading 210 we lose communication. It is IMC.
>>>>>Standard question: what altitudes and routing you'd fly? The
>>>>>aircraft we're flying is /U, so we can't navigate direct BIGGY.
>>>>>
>>>>>First question: would you keep flying the DP, i.e. left turn 160?
>>>>>If so, for how long would you fly heading 160 after you turn? Lost
>>>>>comm instructions in the DP do not apply to us since we're southbound.
>>>>>In order to get onto V3 you'd probably need to fly direct SBJ, and
>>>>>proceed from there, but SBJ is not part of your clearance?
>>>>>
>>>>>Second question -- the altitude: OROCA in the quadrant is 2900. MSA
>>>>>provided by Jepp for CAT is 2000 in this sector. Would you climb
>>>>>to 4000 right away, or you'd wait for 10 mins? MEAs of the airways
>>>>>in that vicinity are 2300 and 3000 feet.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Andrey
>>>>>
>>>
>