GPS Use

[Newps]

Anybody have the link to the FAR that states what the requirements are
for IFR approved GPS's and the database currency for those units.

[CareBear]

Maybe AIM 1-1-19.4.f will help.

CareBear

"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
> Anybody have the link to the FAR that states what the requirements are for
> IFR approved GPS's and the database currency for those units.

[Peter Clark]

And the GPS unit's AOM or Pilots Guide.

On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 18:03:38 -0600, "CareBear" >
wrote:

>Maybe AIM 1-1-19.4.f will help.
>
>CareBear
>
>"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
>> Anybody have the link to the FAR that states what the requirements are for
>> IFR approved GPS's and the database currency for those units.
>

[Newps]

I need the FAR or Advisory Circular that covers this. The AIM is
actually the root of the problem. I believe it to be wrong and isn't
the legal basis anyways.



CareBear wrote:

> Maybe AIM 1-1-19.4.f will help.
>
> CareBear
>
> "Newps" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
>>Anybody have the link to the FAR that states what the requirements are for
>>IFR approved GPS's and the database currency for those units.
>
>
>

[Peter Clark]

My KLN 94 has a POH supplement that states the Pilots Guide is
incorporated by reference. The KLN94 Pilots Guide Part Number
006-18207-0000 page 2-4 states "Note: By FAA regulation, you are
required to have a current navigation database in order to use the KLN
94 for a non-precision approach."

Since the POH is required to be adhered to, and the Pilot's Guide is
incorporated by reference, it would seem to be the legal basis
mandataing a current database for any non-ILS approach with that unit.

It would have been nice of them to footnote what FAA regulation
they're referring to when they say that one requires a current
navigation database. Perhaps emailing Bendix/King and enquiring would
get them to send you the reference?

On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 17:49:41 -0700, Newps > wrote:

>I need the FAR or Advisory Circular that covers this. The AIM is
>actually the root of the problem. I believe it to be wrong and isn't
>the legal basis anyways.
>
>
>
>CareBear wrote:
>
>> Maybe AIM 1-1-19.4.f will help.
>>
>> CareBear
>>
>> "Newps" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>
>>>Anybody have the link to the FAR that states what the requirements are for
>>>IFR approved GPS's and the database currency for those units.
>>
>>
>>

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Newps > wrote in
:

> Anybody have the link to the FAR that states what the requirements are
> for IFR approved GPS's and the database currency for those units.
>

Our's come with expiry dates on the database renewals themselves. When you
are within those dates, you're legal and hopefully safe, if you've read the
notams, of course.


Bertie

[Newps]

Peter Clark wrote:

> My KLN 94 has a POH supplement that states the Pilots Guide is
> incorporated by reference. The KLN94 Pilots Guide Part Number
> 006-18207-0000 page 2-4 states "Note: By FAA regulation, you are
> required to have a current navigation database in order to use the KLN
> 94 for a non-precision approach."


OK there's no argument on that point. The difference we are having is a
terminal/enroute box that you don't shoot approaches with, such as the
GX55 in my plane. It can legally substitute for ADF/DME but some folks
are saying that the database is required to be current. My box is one
that says the user must verify waypoints if the database is expired.

[BT]

AC90-100a Para 10.a.3
(3) The onboard navigation data must be current and appropriate for the
region of intended operation and must include the navigation aids,
waypoints, and relevant coded terminal airspace procedures for the
departure, arrival, and alternate airfields. RNAV STAR procedures may be
designed using multiple runway transitions. Operators not having this
functionality shall provide an acceptable alternative means (for example, a
tailored navigation data base). If no equivalent means are available to fly
the charted RNAV procedure containing multiple runway transitions, operators
will not file or accept clearance for these procedures.


"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
> Anybody have the link to the FAR that states what the requirements are for
> IFR approved GPS's and the database currency for those units.

[BT]

AC90-100a Para 10.a.3
(3) The onboard navigation data must be current and appropriate for the
region of intended operation and must include the navigation aids,
waypoints, and relevant coded terminal airspace procedures for the
departure, arrival, and alternate airfields. RNAV STAR procedures may be
designed using multiple runway transitions. Operators not having this
functionality shall provide an acceptable alternative means (for example, a
tailored navigation data base). If no equivalent means are available to fly
the charted RNAV procedure containing multiple runway transitions, operators
will not file or accept clearance for these procedures.


"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
> Anybody have the link to the FAR that states what the requirements are for
> IFR approved GPS's and the database currency for those units.

[BT]

AC90-100a Para 10.a.3
(3) The onboard navigation data must be current and appropriate for the
region of intended operation and must include the navigation aids,
waypoints, and relevant coded terminal airspace procedures for the
departure, arrival, and alternate airfields. RNAV STAR procedures may be
designed using multiple runway transitions. Operators not having this
functionality shall provide an acceptable alternative means (for example, a
tailored navigation data base). If no equivalent means are available to fly
the charted RNAV procedure containing multiple runway transitions, operators
will not file or accept clearance for these procedures.


"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
> Anybody have the link to the FAR that states what the requirements are for
> IFR approved GPS's and the database currency for those units.

[BT]

AC90-100a Para 10.a.3
(3) The onboard navigation data must be current and appropriate for the
region of intended operation and must include the navigation aids,
waypoints, and relevant coded terminal airspace procedures for the
departure, arrival, and alternate airfields. RNAV STAR procedures may be
designed using multiple runway transitions. Operators not having this
functionality shall provide an acceptable alternative means (for example, a
tailored navigation data base). If no equivalent means are available to fly
the charted RNAV procedure containing multiple runway transitions, operators
will not file or accept clearance for these procedures.


"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
> Anybody have the link to the FAR that states what the requirements are for
> IFR approved GPS's and the database currency for those units.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Bill Watson > wrote in
:

> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>> Newps > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> Anybody have the link to the FAR that states what the requirements
>>> are for IFR approved GPS's and the database currency for those
>>> units.
>>>
>>
>> Our's come with expiry dates on the database renewals themselves.
>> When you are within those dates, you're legal and hopefully safe, if
>> you've read the notams, of course.
>>
>>
>> Bertie
> But that only applies to enroute work (as the original posting
> described). You must have a current DB for GPS approaches on an
> approach certified box. (I'm just testing my knowledge here)
>
> Bill "doing more building then flying" Watson
>


OK.no idea really. We don't do GPS approaches anyway. We've only recently
started using it to FAF, in fact.


Bertie

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> Anybody have the link to the FAR that states what the requirements are for
> IFR approved GPS's and the database currency for those units.
>

There isn't any.

[BT]

dang.. I get message's that the newsgroup server is not responding.. and
then it posts 4 times..
sorry..
BT

"BT" > wrote in message
...
> AC90-100a Para 10.a.3
> (3) The onboard navigation data must be current and appropriate for the
> region of intended operation and must include the navigation aids,
> waypoints, and relevant coded terminal airspace procedures for the
> departure, arrival, and alternate airfields. RNAV STAR procedures may be
> designed using multiple runway transitions. Operators not having this
> functionality shall provide an acceptable alternative means (for example,
> a tailored navigation data base). If no equivalent means are available to
> fly the charted RNAV procedure containing multiple runway transitions,
> operators will not file or accept clearance for these procedures.
>
>
> "Newps" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> Anybody have the link to the FAR that states what the requirements are
>> for IFR approved GPS's and the database currency for those units.
>
>

[F. Baum]

On Dec 3, 9:15 pm, Newps > wrote:
>
> OK there's no argument on that point. The difference we are having is a
> terminal/enroute box that you don't shoot approaches with, such as the
> GX55 in my plane. It can legally substitute for ADF/DME but some folks
> are saying that the database is required to be current. My box is one
> that says the user must verify waypoints if the database is expired.

Newps, this is a great question. At work we are allowed to MEL the
database provided we verify the waypoints (And our box is certified
for RNP) , but for part 91, I doubt you have an MEL. This creates a
grey area and I dont think the feds would give you a consistent
answer. If your manual says it is OK just do it. In the older Boeings
there was a requierment for one of the pilots to be in raw data by the
FAF so we would dial in the NDB but of course we used the box to fly
the course. Nobody could argue with that because we were legal and
safe. So just dial in the NDB and use the box for a "Backup" and you
will be fine.
FB

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 16:33:12 -0700, Newps > wrote:

>Anybody have the link to the FAR that states what the requirements are
>for IFR approved GPS's and the database currency for those units.

Newps,

I believe that if you are looking for the legal basis of that sort of
information, you will have to search it out in the AFM supplement and TSO
for the box you have. The applicable regulations would be those that
require you to act in accordance with those documents, and I don't recall
exactly which one's.

For example, the AFM for my CNX80/GNS480:

====================================
2.3 DATABASE

The GNS 480 Database Card P/N 138-0329-051 Rev. -- (or later FAA approved
version) must be installed.

a) IFR enroute and terminal navigation is prohibited, unless the
pilot verifies the currency of the database or verifies each selected
waypoint for accuracy by reference to current approved data.

b) Instrument approaches using the GNS 480 are prohibited, unless
GNS 480 approach data is verified by the pilot or crew to be current.
Instrument approaches must be accomplished in accordance with approved
instrument approach procedures that are loaded from the GNS 480 database.
=======================================

Seems clear to me that for enroute and terminal operations, the DB does not
need to be current so long as I verify each waypoint.

But for Instrument approaches, I must have a current DB.
--ron

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"BT" > wrote in message
...
>
> AC90-100a Para 10.a.3
> (3) The onboard navigation data must be current and appropriate for the
> region of intended operation and must include the navigation aids,
> waypoints, and relevant coded terminal airspace procedures for the
> departure, arrival, and alternate airfields. RNAV STAR procedures may be
> designed using multiple runway transitions. Operators not having this
> functionality shall provide an acceptable alternative means (for example,
> a tailored navigation data base). If no equivalent means are available to
> fly the charted RNAV procedure containing multiple runway transitions,
> operators will not file or accept clearance for these procedures.
>

AC No: 00-2.15

Subject: ADVISORY CIRCULAR CHECKLIST and Status of Other FAA Publications

3. Explanation of the AC system.

"The FAA issues advisory circulars to inform the aviation public in a
systematic way of non-regulatory material. Unless incorporated into a
regulation by reference, the contents of an advisory circular are not
binding on the public."


Has AC 90-100A been incorporated into a regulation by reference?

[Newps]

Dial in the NDB? That's freakin' hillarious. Even if the FAA stance
was the database has to be current I don't mind bustin' that rule.
That's just dumb.




F. Baum wrote:
> On Dec 3, 9:15 pm, Newps > wrote:
>
>>OK there's no argument on that point. The difference we are having is a
>>terminal/enroute box that you don't shoot approaches with, such as the
>>GX55 in my plane. It can legally substitute for ADF/DME but some folks
>>are saying that the database is required to be current. My box is one
>>that says the user must verify waypoints if the database is expired.
>
>
> Newps, this is a great question. At work we are allowed to MEL the
> database provided we verify the waypoints (And our box is certified
> for RNP) , but for part 91, I doubt you have an MEL. This creates a
> grey area and I dont think the feds would give you a consistent
> answer. If your manual says it is OK just do it. In the older Boeings
> there was a requierment for one of the pilots to be in raw data by the
> FAF so we would dial in the NDB but of course we used the box to fly
> the course. Nobody could argue with that because we were legal and
> safe. So just dial in the NDB and use the box for a "Backup" and you
> will be fine.
> FB
>