Owner's Manual Format

[RST Engineering]

Printing costs have been on a steady exponential increase, following right
along with energy costs associated with creating paper from trees, soybean
prices for ink, and all the rest of the process involved with creating paper
manuals.

On the other hand, the price of optical media (DVD and CDROM) is plummeting.
Anybody that has bought any computer electronic device recently soon
discovers that other than the single sheet "quick start" guide, all the rest
of the owner's manual is on CDROM.

I guess the real question is whether a 10-20% bump in the cost of an
aviation electronic product to provide a printed black and white product
manual versus 0% increase for a CDROM that can be done in full living color
is worth it.

(BTW, we can do ALL our manuals on a single CDROM, so you get much more
information on the whole product line than with a single manual.)

Jim

--
"If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right."
--Henry Ford

[Jim Burns[_2_]]

What sucks is if the manual is required to be carried in the cockpit by the
avionics certification or STC :(
(one of the other) Jim(s)

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
...
> Printing costs have been on a steady exponential increase, following right
> along with energy costs associated with creating paper from trees, soybean
> prices for ink, and all the rest of the process involved with creating
paper
> manuals.
>
> On the other hand, the price of optical media (DVD and CDROM) is
plummeting.
> Anybody that has bought any computer electronic device recently soon
> discovers that other than the single sheet "quick start" guide, all the
rest
> of the owner's manual is on CDROM.
>
> I guess the real question is whether a 10-20% bump in the cost of an
> aviation electronic product to provide a printed black and white product
> manual versus 0% increase for a CDROM that can be done in full living
color
> is worth it.
>
> (BTW, we can do ALL our manuals on a single CDROM, so you get much more
> information on the whole product line than with a single manual.)
>
> Jim
>
> --
> "If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right."
> --Henry Ford
>
>

[Gig 601XL Builder]

RST Engineering wrote:
> Printing costs have been on a steady exponential increase, following
> right along with energy costs associated with creating paper from
> trees, soybean prices for ink, and all the rest of the process
> involved with creating paper manuals.
>
> On the other hand, the price of optical media (DVD and CDROM) is
> plummeting. Anybody that has bought any computer electronic device
> recently soon discovers that other than the single sheet "quick
> start" guide, all the rest of the owner's manual is on CDROM.
>
> I guess the real question is whether a 10-20% bump in the cost of an
> aviation electronic product to provide a printed black and white
> product manual versus 0% increase for a CDROM that can be done in
> full living color is worth it.
>
> (BTW, we can do ALL our manuals on a single CDROM, so you get much
> more information on the whole product line than with a single manual.)
>
> Jim

What aviation electronic product has a 10-20% bump in the cost of the
product because they have a manual?

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Jim Burns" > wrote in message
...
> What sucks is if the manual is required to be carried in the cockpit by
> the
> avionics certification or STC :(
> (one of the other) Jim(s)
>

I would think it would be easier to find a place to stash a CD than a paper
manual.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Mark Hansen]

On 12/04/07 14:41, Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
> "Jim Burns" > wrote in message
> ...
>> What sucks is if the manual is required to be carried in the cockpit by
>> the
>> avionics certification or STC :(
>> (one of the other) Jim(s)
>>
>
> I would think it would be easier to find a place to stash a CD than a paper
> manual.

Well, the CD will be a little harder to thumb through while in flight ;-)

>
> --
> Geoff
> The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
> remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
> When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.
>
>



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[RST Engineering]

We've been absorbing costs for about five years and just can't afford to do
it any longer. Two choices. Increase price or decrease costs.

For those that require a manual in the airplane, it is cheaper for you to
print it out on your inkjet than for us to use a copy service.

Jim

--
"If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right."
--Henry Ford


"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
...

> RST Engineering wrote:
>
> What aviation electronic product has a 10-20% bump in the cost of the
> product because they have a manual?
>

[cavelamb himself[_4_]]

Mark Hansen wrote:
> On 12/04/07 14:41, Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
>
>>"Jim Burns" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>What sucks is if the manual is required to be carried in the cockpit by
>>>the
>>>avionics certification or STC :(
>>>(one of the other) Jim(s)
>>>
>>
>>I would think it would be easier to find a place to stash a CD than a paper
>>manual.
>
>
> Well, the CD will be a little harder to thumb through while in flight ;-)
>
>
>>--
>>Geoff
>>The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
>>remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
>>When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

Print your own???

[Mark Hansen]

On 12/04/07 16:22, cavelamb himself wrote:
> Mark Hansen wrote:
>> On 12/04/07 14:41, Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
>>
>>>"Jim Burns" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>>What sucks is if the manual is required to be carried in the cockpit by
>>>>the
>>>>avionics certification or STC :(
>>>>(one of the other) Jim(s)
>>>>
>>>
>>>I would think it would be easier to find a place to stash a CD than a paper
>>>manual.
>>
>>
>> Well, the CD will be a little harder to thumb through while in flight ;-)
>>
>>
>>>--
>>>Geoff
>>>The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
>>>remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
>>>When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Print your own???
>

Did you read what I was responding to???

[cavelamb himself[_4_]]

Mark Hansen wrote:

> On 12/04/07 16:22, cavelamb himself wrote:
>
>>Mark Hansen wrote:
>>
>>>On 12/04/07 14:41, Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Jim Burns" > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>What sucks is if the manual is required to be carried in the cockpit by
>>>>>the
>>>>>avionics certification or STC :(
>>>>>(one of the other) Jim(s)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I would think it would be easier to find a place to stash a CD than a paper
>>>>manual.
>>>
>>>
>>>Well, the CD will be a little harder to thumb through while in flight ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Geoff
>>>>The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
>>>>remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
>>>>When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Print your own???
>>
>
>
> Did you read what I was responding to???

Yeah, Mark, I did.

But a printed manual is a lot handier.

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Mark Hansen" > wrote in message
...
> On 12/04/07 14:41, Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
>> "Jim Burns" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> What sucks is if the manual is required to be carried in the cockpit by
>>> the
>>> avionics certification or STC :(
>>> (one of the other) Jim(s)
>>>
>>
>> I would think it would be easier to find a place to stash a CD than a
>> paper
>> manual.
>
> Well, the CD will be a little harder to thumb through while in flight ;-)
>

Assuming, of course, you want to read it - as opposed to having it there
because it is "required to be carried in the cockpit by the avionics
certification or STC"...

:-)

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Mark Hansen]

On 12/04/07 17:07, cavelamb himself wrote:
> Mark Hansen wrote:
>
>> On 12/04/07 16:22, cavelamb himself wrote:
>>
>>>Mark Hansen wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 12/04/07 14:41, Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Jim Burns" > wrote in message
...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>What sucks is if the manual is required to be carried in the cockpit by
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>avionics certification or STC :(
>>>>>>(one of the other) Jim(s)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I would think it would be easier to find a place to stash a CD than a paper
>>>>>manual.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Well, the CD will be a little harder to thumb through while in flight ;-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>Geoff
>>>>>The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
>>>>>remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
>>>>>When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Print your own???
>>>
>>
>>
>> Did you read what I was responding to???
>
> Yeah, Mark, I did.
>
> But a printed manual is a lot handier.
>


For crying out loud, cavelamb. Jim said that (some) STCs required printed manuals.
To that, Geoff said that the CD would be easier to stash in the airplane.
To that, I said that it would be harder to thumb through the CD while in flight.

Do you get it now?

Sheesh.

[Mark Hansen]

On 12/04/07 17:50, Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
> "Mark Hansen" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 12/04/07 14:41, Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
>>> "Jim Burns" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> What sucks is if the manual is required to be carried in the cockpit by
>>>> the
>>>> avionics certification or STC :(
>>>> (one of the other) Jim(s)
>>>>
>>>
>>> I would think it would be easier to find a place to stash a CD than a
>>> paper
>>> manual.
>>
>> Well, the CD will be a little harder to thumb through while in flight ;-)
>>
>
> Assuming, of course, you want to read it - as opposed to having it there
> because it is "required to be carried in the cockpit by the avionics
> certification or STC"...
>
> :-)

Well, see - that's what I thought the joke was :-) I guess it didn't go
over too well with some though ;-(

>
> --
> Geoff
> The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
> remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
> When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.
>
>

[Travis Marlatte]

Full range of offering: Website download (historical and latest) plus a CD
with the product plus an offer of a printed manual for a fee.

Some people prefer to download rather than loading a CD. Plus, when I reload
my computer or buy a new one, I can never find the CD. It's gotta be on the
website.

They can print it themselves (on the office color laser jet for no fee).

For those that are less comfortable, they can order the printed copy from
you.

--
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK
"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
...
> We've been absorbing costs for about five years and just can't afford to
> do it any longer. Two choices. Increase price or decrease costs.
>
> For those that require a manual in the airplane, it is cheaper for you to
> print it out on your inkjet than for us to use a copy service.
>
> Jim
>
> --
> "If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right."
> --Henry Ford
>
>
> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
> ...
>
>> RST Engineering wrote:
>>
>> What aviation electronic product has a 10-20% bump in the cost of the
>> product because they have a manual?
>>
>
>

[RST Engineering]

Because a lot of our customers are technotards.

Jim

--
"If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right."
--Henry Ford


"Richard Riley" > wrote in message
...

> Why bother with the CD? Just post PDFs on your website. Your cost
> for the bandwidth of one customer downloading is cheaper than the cost
> of duplicating, handling and shipping a CD (not that it's high either
> way)

[RST Engineering]

SHUUURE Travis.

Ever run a company? Every put a product out? If so, I'll take advice from
you.

Produce the CD. Produce the printed manual. Produce the website download.
You want to calculate the cost of the stuff you recommend? More than the
cost of producing the print manual to start with.

Jim

--
"If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right."
--Henry Ford


"Travis Marlatte" > wrote in message
. net...
> Full range of offering: Website download (historical and latest) plus a CD
> with the product plus an offer of a printed manual for a fee.
>
> Some people prefer to download rather than loading a CD. Plus, when I
> reload my computer or buy a new one, I can never find the CD. It's gotta
> be on the website.
>
> They can print it themselves (on the office color laser jet for no fee).
>
> For those that are less comfortable, they can order the printed copy from
> you.
>
> --
> -------------------------------
> Travis
> Lake N3094P
> PWK
> "RST Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
>> We've been absorbing costs for about five years and just can't afford to
>> do it any longer. Two choices. Increase price or decrease costs.
>>
>> For those that require a manual in the airplane, it is cheaper for you to
>> print it out on your inkjet than for us to use a copy service.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> --
>> "If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right."
>> --Henry Ford
>>
>>
>> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> RST Engineering wrote:
>>>
>>> What aviation electronic product has a 10-20% bump in the cost of the
>>> product because they have a manual?
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Vaughn Simon]

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> Produce the CD. Produce the printed manual. Produce the website download.
> You want to calculate the cost of the stuff you recommend? More than the cost
> of producing the print manual to start with.

I don't have a lot of experience producing CDs, but I can tell you that
generating and posting a .pdf to the Internet is a 15 minute job. If you don't
have the bandwidth on your own site, there are some excellent archive sites
(some free) that you can bookmark from your own webpage. As for generating
..pdfs, my HP all-in-one machine does that, or you can buy any of several $39.95
..pdf suites. Also, I understand that Open Office (free) will generate a .pdf.

This is not a big deal!

Vaughn

[Scott[_1_]]

? They can build kit avionics but they can't open a pdf file and print
it (if they so desire)? I think having manuals on a company website is
a real bonus. CDs can get misplaced or lost in moves, etc. It's always
nice to know you can always go to the "manufacturer" via their website
and retrieve a lost manual quickly...


RST Engineering wrote:
> Because a lot of our customers are technotards.
>
> Jim
>

--
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)

[Scott[_1_]]

A lot of "manuals" that I have on CD are just pdf files anyway. So, as
long as you have it in pdf format anyway, it's just as easy to put it on
your website. Alternatly, start a Yahoo group and post the manual in
the "Files" section. Provide a link to the Yahoo group on your website.
This way you don't pay for downloaded bytes like you might from your ISP.


Vaughn Simon wrote:

> "RST Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Produce the CD. Produce the printed manual. Produce the website download.
>>You want to calculate the cost of the stuff you recommend? More than the cost
>>of producing the print manual to start with.
>
>
> I don't have a lot of experience producing CDs, but I can tell you that
> generating and posting a .pdf to the Internet is a 15 minute job. If you don't
> have the bandwidth on your own site, there are some excellent archive sites
> (some free) that you can bookmark from your own webpage. As for generating
> .pdfs, my HP all-in-one machine does that, or you can buy any of several $39.95
> .pdf suites. Also, I understand that Open Office (free) will generate a .pdf.
>
> This is not a big deal!
>
> Vaughn
>
>
>
>
>

--
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)

[Morgans[_2_]]

"RST Engineering" > wrote

> Produce the CD. Produce the printed manual. Produce the website
> download. You want to calculate the cost of the stuff you recommend? More
> than the cost of producing the print manual to start with.

My suggestion would be to do away with the printed manual, like everyone
else seems to be doing.

Send a quick start piece of paper, like the others, with links to where they
could find documentation online, using perhaps some of the suggestions
others have put here.

You can probably do that for free, with minimal one time investment of your
time. Put it all in PFD, and that can be the exact same file you put on a
disk to send with your product, so the non internet people can find your
manual to print, if and when they need to.

Don't sweat it, above all. If the print is killing your bottom line, then
your choice is made, IMHO. Do away with it.
--
Jim in NC

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
> "Jim Burns" > wrote in message
> ...
>> What sucks is if the manual is required to be carried in the cockpit
>> by the
>> avionics certification or STC :(
>> (one of the other) Jim(s)
>>
>
> I would think it would be easier to find a place to stash a CD than a
> paper manual.

But it would not be vast majority of PICs. Now you could say. "OK, then have
it in both formats. one for those that have a CD reader in the cockpit and a
paper one for those that don't." Then you miss out on any savings gained
from the CD because the per paper manual cost drop significantly as the
volume go up.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

cavelamb himself wrote:

>>
>>
>
> Print your own???

So you think I can print a single copy from a CD cheaper than the maker of
the widget can print 100's?

[Gig 601XL Builder]

cavelamb himself wrote:
>
> Yeah, Mark, I did.
>
> But a printed manual is a lot handier.

Which is why the manufacture give you one in the first place.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

RST Engineering wrote:
> Because a lot of our customers are technotards.
>

So they are going to have trouble printing out a copy on their inkjet
printer.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

RST Engineering wrote:
> We've been absorbing costs for about five years and just can't afford
> to do it any longer. Two choices. Increase price or decrease costs.
>
> For those that require a manual in the airplane, it is cheaper for
> you to print it out on your inkjet than for us to use a copy service.
>
> Jim
>
>

Jim, and I say this from a publishing background and the owner of laser and
inkjet printers, Bull****.

I can not print off a copy with an ink-jet or even laser printer cheaper
than you can have them printed. If I can you really need to find another
printer because you are getting screwed. And after you find a printer that
isn't bending you over you still need to increase the price do so.

[Drew Dalgleish]

Hi Jim I've built 3 of your kits (intercom + 2 headsets ) and having
the printed instructions on my workbench while building is absoltely
neccessary. I don't think that many people are going to drag their
computer out to the shop so they can reference a CD directly. However
it doesn't really mater if I have to print it myself and it would be a
good opourtunityfor you to add some extra content to the manual. I'm
thinking of some quality colour pictures illistrating the process.
One satisfied customers opinion.

[cavelamb himself[_4_]]

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:

> Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
>
>>"Jim Burns" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>What sucks is if the manual is required to be carried in the cockpit
>>>by the
>>>avionics certification or STC :(
>>>(one of the other) Jim(s)
>>>
>>
>>I would think it would be easier to find a place to stash a CD than a
>>paper manual.
>
>
> But it would not be vast majority of PICs. Now you could say. "OK, then have
> it in both formats. one for those that have a CD reader in the cockpit and a
> paper one for those that don't." Then you miss out on any savings gained
> from the CD because the per paper manual cost drop significantly as the
> volume go up.
>
>

Individual unit costs may drop with volumn, but the total cash outlay is

much higher (lots of units).

[Darrel Toepfer]

"Gig 601XL Builder" > wrote:
> RST Engineering wrote:
>> We've been absorbing costs for about five years and just can't afford
>> to do it any longer. Two choices. Increase price or decrease costs.
>>
>> For those that require a manual in the airplane, it is cheaper for
>> you to print it out on your inkjet than for us to use a copy service.
>>
>> Jim
>
> Jim, and I say this from a publishing background and the owner of
> laser and inkjet printers, Bull****.
>
> I can not print off a copy with an ink-jet or even laser printer
> cheaper than you can have them printed. If I can you really need to
> find another printer because you are getting screwed. And after you
> find a printer that isn't bending you over you still need to increase
> the price do so.

A "copy service" isn't for oneses or twoses, you do a run. To do that
you have to anticipate the future market for your kits. Parts have to be
bulk ordered, circuit boards made. Its alot to ask of 2 people who
already have their @sses on the line and are trying to save you a few
bucks. Plus you have to store all of the above, printed materials
included...

Apparently you have no concept of what postage costs either. That gets
factored in when you add weight and still want to be competitive with
the same widget thats already put together...

And since he's providing the circuit diagrams in .pdf format, that
allows others to simply roll-their-own, with no need to buy anything
from RST at all...

[steveukman]

There may be a middle option ... separate the operator's manual from
the installation / maint / troubleshooting / detailed / programming
guide or whatever you want to call it.

If a one page describes how to perform most functions (I have seen
'howto' lists and tree navigation diagrams work well) then THIS
becomes the operators manual. This would keep the spirit of the
requirement.

When I am flying I do not want to have a large manual or navigate a CD
to learn how to perform an operation. It is probable that if I am in
this situation (learning equipment whilst airborne) then I may have
other issues to deal with and I am just increasing my workload.
Scanning a tree diagram (sorry, operations manual) is an acceptable
workload and the sign of well designed equipment. Anything else is
either because (i) I am playing with details of a non-critical
component or activity and should probably stop (ii) I have failed to
be familiar with a critical operation / equipment - this is poor
planning / decision making and I should not be flying this
configuration or (iii) the equipment is not suitably designed for
cockpit operations. Jim - your equipment does not fall into category
(iii).

Construction, learning capabilities, detailed programming,
configuration &c. should be ground operations - PDF / CD / print the
sections that you need should all work well. I use this criteria for
purchasing equipment and in my own construction.

A one pager for operations would be great. I'd hate to see great
products suffer because of the need to have trees fly instead of
letting them continue to produce oxygen and fuel.

Best Regards
Steve

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
"RST Engineering" > wrote:

> SHUUURE Travis.
>
> Ever run a company? Every put a product out? If so, I'll take advice from
> you.
>
> Produce the CD. Produce the printed manual. Produce the website download.
> You want to calculate the cost of the stuff you recommend? More than the
> cost of producing the print manual to start with.

The company I work for (as a technical writer) has transitioned from
printed docs to docs on CD to online (with a single doc pointing to the
documentation website in the product box) over the past few years.

Why? Because print costs were killing us. On the other hand, a major
product would require about four to six *feet* of shelf space for the
full documentation set. (There were jokes about "buy now, and you get a
free forklift to move your documentation!") If you're even producing
thousands of pages per month of new documentation, ask us how we're
doing it. :}

You've got a pretty nice website, by the way; looks to me as if it
wouldn't be all that much more trouble/expense to add links to your
manuals (in pdf) for customers to download from your support page.

There are ways to get around high documentation print costs, especially
if your shipping volume is low. The same PDF files that you use to send
to the printer could be used to print-on-order for customers who select
hardcopy manual on their order. The printed manual wouldn't ship with
the product, but be shipped directly from the printer to the customer.
Might even beat the product. Frankly, I'm a little surprised that you
only change $10 for printed manuals. Given overhead on top of actual
print costs, you certainly aren't getting rich off offering them. :}

You could do the same for a doc CD, if customers really wanted one,
although bandwidth these days is getting to the point where CDs don't
always make more sense, at least for print-ish documentation. (For a
complete set of plans for a kit plane, they could be verr' nice, even if
the builder doesn't have access to a large-format inkjet
plotter/printer.)

Multimedia, which we've done in the past, is marginally possible for
download, but much more convenient on CD/DVD. And almost certainly more
expensive to produce than you really want to get into.

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote:

> cavelamb himself wrote:
>
> >
> > Print your own???
>
> So you think I can print a single copy from a CD cheaper than the maker of
> the widget can print 100's?

Not with an inkjet printer, certainly.

Then again, if the widget maker has any sense at all, he's not going to
be printing 100s or 1,000s at a time. Warehousing and other handling
costs.

Not that he's going to get much of a price break from the printer for
such small quantities.

[Blueskies]

"Richard Riley" > wrote in message ...
> On Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:59:48 -0800, "RST Engineering"
> > wrote:
>
>>Because a lot of our customers are technotards.
>>
>>Jim
>
> 1) If they can't download and print a PDF - are they going to be able
> to print a PDF from the CD? I mean, most of the equipment is the same
> - computer, PDF reader, printer. One you have to have a CD drive -
> and everyone with a computer has one, I think that's a safe
> assumption. The other, they have to have an internet connection - and
> I think that's a safe assumption these days too.
>
> 2) Given the choice, I'd rather have the PDF on the website. I can't
> keep track of a CD to save my life, there are stacks of them around
> here. They get damaged. They get thrown out. They get lost. I can
> always get back to RSTengineering.com.
>
> But if you go to the work of putting it on CD, it's only a few minutes
> work to put the same data on your server, so I suspect it's not going
> to be an either/or choice.
>
> I say chuck the printed manual, do CD and host.
>
> YMMV

Another bonus of the web based solution is that you can keep it up to date...

[Blueskies]

"Vaughn Simon" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> I don't have a lot of experience producing CDs, but I can tell you that generating and posting a .pdf to the Internet
> is a 15 minute job. If you don't have the bandwidth on your own site, there are some excellent archive sites (some
> free) that you can bookmark from your own webpage. As for generating .pdfs, my HP all-in-one machine does that, or
> you can buy any of several $39.95 .pdf suites. Also, I understand that Open Office (free) will generate a .pdf.
>
> This is not a big deal!
>
> Vaughn
>
>

It can be a simple as a 'print to .pdf' printer driver: http://www.win2pdf.com/

[Blueskies]

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message ...
> SHUUURE Travis.
>
> Ever run a company? Every put a product out? If so, I'll take advice from you.
>
> Produce the CD. Produce the printed manual. Produce the website download. You want to calculate the cost of the
> stuff you recommend? More than the cost of producing the print manual to start with.
>
> Jim
>
> --
> "If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right."
> --Henry Ford
>

Charge extra for a printed manual. The new HP computer I just bought only includes the most basic set up instructions,
all the detail is either on the hard drive or online. They never even mention paper...

[Scott[_1_]]

Not necessarily, but I think Richard's suggestions shifts the cost from
the manufacturer to the consumer. I think that's what he was getting at...

Scott


Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
> cavelamb himself wrote:
>
>
>>>
>>Print your own???
>
>
> So you think I can print a single copy from a CD cheaper than the maker of
> the widget can print 100's?
>
>

--
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)

[Dave S]

I would LOVE to have a digital copy of the manuals to your products.
That was something that was not provided according to the webpage or the
manuals themselves, even though they clearly were .doc word documents.

You do it, I will buy one for the products of yours I already have.

I am already compiling a complete electronic maintenance and operating
manual for our plane if we ever have to repair it away from home. Carry
it all on a thumbdrive.

Dave

RST Engineering wrote:
> Printing costs have been on a steady exponential increase, following right
> along with energy costs associated with creating paper from trees, soybean
> prices for ink, and all the rest of the process involved with creating paper
> manuals.
>
> On the other hand, the price of optical media (DVD and CDROM) is plummeting.
> Anybody that has bought any computer electronic device recently soon
> discovers that other than the single sheet "quick start" guide, all the rest
> of the owner's manual is on CDROM.
>
> I guess the real question is whether a 10-20% bump in the cost of an
> aviation electronic product to provide a printed black and white product
> manual versus 0% increase for a CDROM that can be done in full living color
> is worth it.
>
> (BTW, we can do ALL our manuals on a single CDROM, so you get much more
> information on the whole product line than with a single manual.)
>
> Jim
>

[Travis Marlatte]

First of all, I don't think I suggested anything that drastic and not much
different than some of the other posts. Why jump all over me?

I merely suggested a well rounded approach that keeps your costs low. You
already suggested doing the CD in place of the printed manual. No problem.
You now obviously have the electronic files that can be easily uploaded to
the web. Minimial cost. I think you can get by without any printed manauls
but if someone insists, charge them.

There are many companies that provide the web hosted manauls only. CDs or
printed copies have to be ordered and sometimes for a fee.

Sounds like good customer service and a good business model to me. And yes,
I have but I'm not claiming to be an expert so it's irrelevant. Just hit the
delete key.

--
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK
"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
...
> SHUUURE Travis.
>
> Ever run a company? Every put a product out? If so, I'll take advice
> from you.
>
> Produce the CD. Produce the printed manual. Produce the website
> download. You want to calculate the cost of the stuff you recommend? More
> than the cost of producing the print manual to start with.
>
> Jim
>
> --
> "If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right."
> --Henry Ford
>
>
> "Travis Marlatte" > wrote in message
> . net...
>> Full range of offering: Website download (historical and latest) plus a
>> CD with the product plus an offer of a printed manual for a fee.
>>
>> Some people prefer to download rather than loading a CD. Plus, when I
>> reload my computer or buy a new one, I can never find the CD. It's gotta
>> be on the website.
>>
>> They can print it themselves (on the office color laser jet for no fee).
>>
>> For those that are less comfortable, they can order the printed copy from
>> you.
>>
>> --
>> -------------------------------
>> Travis
>> Lake N3094P
>> PWK
>> "RST Engineering" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> We've been absorbing costs for about five years and just can't afford to
>>> do it any longer. Two choices. Increase price or decrease costs.
>>>
>>> For those that require a manual in the airplane, it is cheaper for you
>>> to print it out on your inkjet than for us to use a copy service.
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>> --
>>> "If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right."
>>> --Henry Ford
>>>
>>>
>>> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> RST Engineering wrote:
>>>>
>>>> What aviation electronic product has a 10-20% bump in the cost of the
>>>> product because they have a manual?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Travis Marlatte]

It's not a question of cheaper. It's a question of cost transference. Having
you print it - no matter how expensive - is cheaper for the manufacturer.

--
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK
"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
...
> cavelamb himself wrote:
>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Print your own???
>
> So you think I can print a single copy from a CD cheaper than the maker of
> the widget can print 100's?
>

[Gig 601XL Builder]

And that is fine but not if he thinks it is better for the consumer than the
manufacture just increasing the price to cover the increased cost. Please
keep one thing in mind though. THe way I read the original post was we were
talking about a item that having the manual in the aircraft was a
requirement.

Scott wrote:
> Not necessarily, but I think Richard's suggestions shifts the cost
> from the manufacturer to the consumer. I think that's what he was
> getting at...
> Scott
>
>
> Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>> cavelamb himself wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>
>>> Print your own???
>>
>>
>> So you think I can print a single copy from a CD cheaper than the
>> maker of the widget can print 100's?

[Gig 601XL Builder]

But that wasn't really the ORIGINAL question it was a a matter of increasing
the cost of the product or having only an electronic version of the manual.


Travis Marlatte wrote:
> It's not a question of cheaper. It's a question of cost transference.
> Having you print it - no matter how expensive - is cheaper for the
> manufacturer.
>> cavelamb himself wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Print your own???
>>
>> So you think I can print a single copy from a CD cheaper than the
>> maker of the widget can print 100's?

[Peter Dohm]

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
...
> cavelamb himself wrote:
>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Print your own???
>
> So you think I can print a single copy from a CD cheaper than the maker of
> the widget can print 100's?
>
That's not quite the point.

The most common reason stated for not providing a comprehensive manual is
that too many of the customers are not utilizing the manuals. Therefore,
according to the argument, the customers are unwilling to bear the
cost--instead they will purchase a competing product which does not include
that cost; or may simply do without the product.

Therefore, the printable manual is an acceptable compromise for those
customers who demand a printed manual. (Personally, I don't like the result
as well as a bound manual; but it is a usefull compromise most of the time.)

Peter

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Peter Dohm wrote:
> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
> ...
>> cavelamb himself wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Print your own???
>>
>> So you think I can print a single copy from a CD cheaper than the
>> maker of the widget can print 100's?
>>
> That's not quite the point.
>
> The most common reason stated for not providing a comprehensive
> manual is that too many of the customers are not utilizing the
> manuals. Therefore, according to the argument, the customers are
> unwilling to bear the cost--instead they will purchase a competing
> product which does not include that cost; or may simply do without
> the product.
> Therefore, the printable manual is an acceptable compromise for those
> customers who demand a printed manual. (Personally, I don't like the
> result as well as a bound manual; but it is a usefull compromise most
> of the time.)
> Peter

My entire argument was that I thought we were talking about a manual that
was REQUIRED to be in the aircraft. IF that isn't the case the, well, never
mind.

[cavelamb himself[_4_]]

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:

> Peter Dohm wrote:
>
>>"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
...
>>
>>>cavelamb himself wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Print your own???
>>>
>>>So you think I can print a single copy from a CD cheaper than the
>>>maker of the widget can print 100's?
>>>
>>
>>That's not quite the point.
>>
>>The most common reason stated for not providing a comprehensive
>>manual is that too many of the customers are not utilizing the
>>manuals. Therefore, according to the argument, the customers are
>>unwilling to bear the cost--instead they will purchase a competing
>>product which does not include that cost; or may simply do without
>>the product.
>>Therefore, the printable manual is an acceptable compromise for those
>>customers who demand a printed manual. (Personally, I don't like the
>>result as well as a bound manual; but it is a usefull compromise most
>>of the time.)
>>Peter
>
>
> My entire argument was that I thought we were talking about a manual that
> was REQUIRED to be in the aircraft. IF that isn't the case the, well, never
> mind.
>
>

If it is...
I doubt any inspector would accept a CD in the glove compartment.

[[email protected]]

In our software business, we have abandoned including a printed manual
for free long time ago. The manual is included in file format and is
optionally printed for an extra fee. Some governments or large corps
want it printed - and we print it at time of sale with the office
printer and then get it spiral bound at local printing co. (~ $3). The
main reason is not the cost but product changes. I am sure that you
continually improve your products too and the manuals could be out of
date after being printed. Like a lot of companies, you could also have
the manuals available on your website in PDF format. See for example
Dynon http://dynonavionics.com/docs/support_documentation.html

On Dec 4, 1:16 pm, "RST Engineering" > wrote:
> Printing costs have been on a steady exponential increase, following right
> along with energy costs associated with creating paper from trees, soybean
> prices for ink, and all the rest of the process involved with creating paper
> manuals.
>
> On the other hand, the price of optical media (DVD and CDROM) is plummeting.
> Anybody that has bought any computer electronic device recently soon
> discovers that other than the single sheet "quick start" guide, all the rest
> of the owner's manual is on CDROM.
>
> I guess the real question is whether a 10-20% bump in the cost of an
> aviation electronic product to provide a printed black and white product
> manual versus 0% increase for a CDROM that can be done in full living color
> is worth it.
> .....

[Peter Dohm]

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
...
> Peter Dohm wrote:
>> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
>> ...
>>> cavelamb himself wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Print your own???
>>>
>>> So you think I can print a single copy from a CD cheaper than the
>>> maker of the widget can print 100's?
>>>
>> That's not quite the point.
>>
>> The most common reason stated for not providing a comprehensive
>> manual is that too many of the customers are not utilizing the
>> manuals. Therefore, according to the argument, the customers are
>> unwilling to bear the cost--instead they will purchase a competing
>> product which does not include that cost; or may simply do without
>> the product.
>> Therefore, the printable manual is an acceptable compromise for those
>> customers who demand a printed manual. (Personally, I don't like the
>> result as well as a bound manual; but it is a usefull compromise most
>> of the time.)
>> Peter
>
> My entire argument was that I thought we were talking about a manual that
> was REQUIRED to be in the aircraft. IF that isn't the case the, well,
> never mind.
>
I thought that was the case as well--initially--and did not plan to
contribute.

But, then, after the topic appeared to become more inclusive, I just had to
mention my own pet irritation--albeit rather gently.

Peter

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

Why not do like many of the IT manufacturers? Distribute the documentation
on a CD and make the printed manual an optional extra cost item as long as
the printed manual is not required to be onboard the aircraft at all times.
The CD distribution brings another advantage in that patches and updates
could be distributed as downloads, or new versions could be purchased and
shipped very efficiently and at low cost.

Taking this thought even further, why not integrate the CD or DVD player
video output with an MFD if available?

--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
...
> Printing costs have been on a steady exponential increase, following right
> along with energy costs associated with creating paper from trees, soybean
> prices for ink, and all the rest of the process involved with creating
> paper manuals.
>
> On the other hand, the price of optical media (DVD and CDROM) is
> plummeting. Anybody that has bought any computer electronic device
> recently soon discovers that other than the single sheet "quick start"
> guide, all the rest of the owner's manual is on CDROM.
>
> I guess the real question is whether a 10-20% bump in the cost of an
> aviation electronic product to provide a printed black and white product
> manual versus 0% increase for a CDROM that can be done in full living
> color is worth it.
>
> (BTW, we can do ALL our manuals on a single CDROM, so you get much more
> information on the whole product line than with a single manual.)
>
> Jim
>
> --
> "If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right."
> --Henry Ford
>
>

[James Carlson]

Ernest Christley > writes:
> Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>
> > My entire argument was that I thought we were talking about a manual
> > that was REQUIRED to be in the aircraft. IF that isn't the case the,
> > well, never mind.
>
> Required manuals? Why does that bring to mind, "Oh! Then engine is on
> fire. I'd better break out the manual!"
>
> There are certain charts that might be useful in flight, but for the
> most part I don't care to wait to read the manual until I need it.
> The manual should be safe at home, and any necessary lookup tables
> printed.

Except that FAR 91.9(b) begs to differ.

--
James Carlson, Solaris Networking >
Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084
MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677

[Denny]

There is no indication that CD's will last 50 years banging around in
a flight bag, being tossed into the baggage compartment, thrown on a
shelf in the hangar where they go from 20 below to 120 degrees over
and over through the years...... I have printed manuals on Fat Albert
that are that old and have ... THey still boot up just fine...
Also, I cannot balance a CD on my tummy in bed and read it.. I vote
for the manufacturers to be required to supply a printed manual on
dead trees...

denny

[RST Engineering]

> There is no indication that CD's will last 50 years banging around in
> a flight bag, being tossed into the baggage compartment, thrown on a
> shelf in the hangar where they go from 20 below to 120 degrees over
> and over through the years

They probably won't. Then again, how many pieces of avionics do you have in
the airplane that are 50 years old? 40? 30? 20, perhaps.


....... I have printed manuals on Fat Albert
> that are that old and have ... THey still boot up just fine...
> Also, I cannot balance a CD on my tummy in bed and read it..

So you are interested in assessing everybody who buys the equipment to pay a
$5 tax because you want a printed manual? That doesn't seem hardly fair,
does it? You want a full manual? Print your own from the CD. You only
need chapters C and G, print just C and G.


I vote
> for the manufacturers to be required to supply a printed manual on
> dead trees...

Ya know, one of the privileges of being in the manufacturing game is that
the customer can't "require" anything. You are perfectly welcome to vote
with your pocketbook, but you can't "require" anything.

Jim

[Gig601XLBuilder]

RST Engineering wrote:

> Ya know, one of the privileges of being in the manufacturing game is that
> the customer can't "require" anything. You are perfectly welcome to vote
> with your pocketbook, but you can't "require" anything.
>
> Jim
>
>

Didn't this whole thread start Jim with you asking us our opinion on the
issue? And your privilege is only for those manufactures like yourself
that are selling ones and twos to a bunch of customers. Try doing
business with Wal-Mart and tell me how they can't require that you do
something.

[Denny]

Well, Jim is a grump when anyone disagrees with him, especially me..
Second, he is correct that the customer can vote with his feet - once
it becomes known on the chat groups that a manufacturer is a grumpass
who is not friendly after the sale...

The issue for Jim, is that the cost of a printed manual is a
significant fraction of the total price of his product.. And, what I
am reading betwen the lines is that he is hooked on the horns of a
dilemma where raising the price of his product will reduce sales
because his customers are looking for a cheap solution to their
needs, but continuing to supply a printed manual reduces his profit
margin below a sustainable level...
So he sees a solution as being either a CD or <preferably> a web site
with a down load PDF... But then, he laments that his customers are
'technotards' who aren't lining up in droves to save him money...
<uummm,welcome to the real world, Jim>

OK, I could on on for half of a thick book with trendline analysis,
similar product studies, etc., etc... But I don't see many of you as
being willing to read it...

The readers digest version is that Jim needs to change to a web based
site with download PDF files.... Make it clear in the sales literature
that the schematics, board photos, and the step by step instructions
are only available that way... For those who are total technotards,
also have a mechanism where they can call up InstyPrint, et. al. and
buy a manual shipped by express mail... Yes, this will impact your
sales, but not as much as a 15% or 20% increase in selling price....

denny

[RST Engineering]

Much to the contrary. Our customers are techies who probably know the color
code by heart and certainly know which end of the soldering iron gets hot.
Otherwise they couldn't put the product together.

Jim

--
"If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right."
--Henry Ford



But then, he laments that his customers are
> 'technotards'