Flying in Germany

[Bob Fry]

http://jimsladesairlines.com/beil.html

I've known Harmut from many years ago when he was flying his Ercoupe
from the Bay Area. He returned to Germany a few years ago and wrote
this report from his native land on the differences between US and
German GA.
--
Everybody's worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there's a really
easy way; stop participating in it.
~ Noam Chomsky

[[email protected]]

> I've known Harmut from many years ago when he was flying his Ercoupe
> from the Bay Area. *He returned to Germany a few years ago and wrote
> this report from his native land on the differences between US and
> German GA.

That interesting. I lived in Berlin for a year or so. I'm not
surprised at the level of regulation or the fact that German law in
practice trusts "foreigners" more than Germans. The once Nazi country
can't be seen as being unwelcoming to non Germans.

[[email protected]]

Pretty interesting, didn't realize the rules are so bizarre in
Germany. AOPA would probably love to publish this.. with the dollar so
weak, it would be a steal for Europeans and others to come to the US
for flight training.

On Dec 25, 7:02 am, Bob Fry > wrote:
> http://jimsladesairlines.com/beil.html
>
> I've known Harmut from many years ago when he was flying his Ercoupe
> from the Bay Area. He returned to Germany a few years ago and wrote
> this report from his native land on the differences between US and
> German GA.
> --
> Everybody's worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there's a really
> easy way; stop participating in it.
> ~ Noam Chomsky

[Martin Hotze[_2_]]

schrieb:
> Pretty interesting, didn't realize the rules are so bizarre in
> Germany.

this is not only true for Germany.

> AOPA would probably love to publish this.. with the dollar so
> weak, it would be a steal for Europeans

It was already cheaper back then when the dollar was pretty expensive.

> and others to come to the US for flight training.

I know more than 10 people personally who *did* that back then (myself
included [1]) but excluded this country for a couple of years now for
further visits (not only for flying but also for leisure/pleasure).

I know only 2 guys personally who visited in resent years. One was there
for a type rating. It was OK, but he felt not really (hmm, what is the
correct word for this situation?) happy anymore - compared to his
earlier visits. The other one had to visit for business purpose (he is a
university professor in chemistry) and he had some bizzare experiences
and stories to tell.

#m

[1] I did it in 2002 (and earlier, too). Whith the money I spent then
I'd today fly probably double the hours.

[Jim Logajan]

Wolfgang Schwanke > wrote:
> Bottom line: Most of the facts are correct, but his viewpoint is very
> "American" and not very flexible. He makes it sound as if flying here
> is extremely hard or difficult to achive and as if the rules were a
> nightmare. Fact is that it's quite affordable and comparatively easy if
> you set your mind to it, and the rules (of which some are quite silly I
> agree) aren't really such a nuisance, and can be avoided if you know
> how to.

Interesting to see the different viewpoints - appreciated.

I suppose one way to compare affordability and ease of acquiring a license
or certificate is to compare the fraction of population that have acquired
them. For the U.S. I believe about 1 in 500 people have a pilot certificate
(~0.2%). (The FAA published stats on number of active certificate holders
on its web site.) Are there numbers available for other countries like
Germany?

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Wolfgang Schwanke > wrote in news:5td6kcF1crpp2U1
@mid.uni-berlin.de:

> Bob Fry > wrote in
> :
>
>> http://jimsladesairlines.com/beil.html
>>
>> I've known Harmut from many years ago when he was flying his Ercoupe
>> from the Bay Area. He returned to Germany a few years ago and wrote
>> this report from his native land on the differences between US and
>> German GA.
>
> Interesting page. I live in Berlin and fly from airports around the
city
> (3-axis microlights), but I have no "American" background of any kind.
> Maybe some comments from another perspective are interesting for the
> group.
>
> First of all most of what he writes is correct. Just a couple of minor
> corrections or different opinions/perspectives from me.
>
> (quotes from the above page)
>
>> Even though in the mid-sixties Germans started flying again and the
>> German Lufthansa began flying routes and lines
>
> Make that mid-fifties
>
>> Berlin was excluded from German flying; only foreign airlines were
>> allowed to service the 3 airports.
>
> Make that: only French, British or American airlines
>
>> When I now fly around Berlin, it is obvious that it would have been
>> too easy for anyone to just take off anywhere in East Germany and
land
>> in West Berlin in a blink of an eye. So East Berliners were not to
fly
>
> Almost but not entirely correct. Besides commercial (Interflug) and
> military (obvious) there was General Aviation in East Germany. Most
> importantly the agricultural flyers, which were used to spray the
large
> collectivised crop fields with insecticides and fertilizers. There
were
> probably hundreds of small airstrips amidst the crop fields for them,
> most of which are now abandoned, but some of which survive as regular
> airports. They used mainly Polish Wilgas. Some of those are still
around
> and are now used for towing gliders. But there was also (very limited)
> recreational aviation, organised through the "GST", a state-run youth
> organisation. The only activities were gliding and parachuting, no
> motorised aviation for leisure.
>
> About the danger of escape: Gliders having limited range, the "risk"
was
> probably deemed low. However there was (at least) one case of a glider
> pilot escaping. He took off from this http://www.flugplatz-
saarmund.de/
> small grass strip approx 20 km southwest of West Berlin and landed in
> Gatow. That was sometime in the 1970s, Saarmund was closed in the
> aftermath. It was reopened post 1990.
>
>> The US Air Force handed the Tempelhof airport over to Germany in 1993
>> and one year later we had the first Lufthansa airliner land in
Berlin.
>
> The first Lufthansa airliner - and the first German GA into Berlin -
> landed on October 3, 1990, because that day formal occupation ended
and
> German control of the entire Berlin and East German airspace resumed.
> The 4 Allies (of which the US were only one, remember) left in 1994,
and
> some of them stayed around as airspace controlers during those 4 years
> (and some even longer as civilian employees of the German control
> authority), but as occupiers they had no say any more.
>
>> A lot of airports around the city that used to belong to the military
>> were handed over to the public
>
> True for many, but some other GA fields around Berlin are former crop
> strips (see above), and a few others were launched completely from
> scratch.
>
>> My brother is not allowed to fly outside of his country unless he
>> passes an additional exam that proves proficiency in mastering
>> aviation language in English.
>
> True
>
>> Passing that exam is not easy
>
> Well. I'm currently preparing for the same test, after having passed
the
> German license some years ago (where I witnessed the test for those
who
> did English). It's easy enough.
>
>> since it involves actual talking to the examiners,
>
> Yes, but so does the German test
>
>> retired ATC specialists
>
> still active ones, to the best of my knowledge
>
>> that proudly insist on the use of a British aviation English.
>
> Rubbish. The "English" I hear on the radio here all the time has a
heavy
> German accent, including from controllers. Nobody cares about
"correct"
> pronunciation, much less any specific national version of English.
What
> matters is clarity. For example we're supposed to pronounce th like t
to
> avoid confusion with s or f - very non-British I think.
>
> There may be differences between American radio phraseology and
> "European" (or perhaps "rest of the world"?) phraseology. I'm no
expert
> on these differences, but I seem to remember there were discussions
> about them earlier. But those differences don't originate in the UK.
For
> all I know they might originate in the US.
>
>> A new German pilot is also not allowed to fly into class Charlie
>> airspace [...] Therefore one has to get an extra license, the CVFR
>> license
>
> True for licences issued before 2003 but not now. The current PPLs are
> issued according to JAR rules, and they include an airspace C
> permission. (airspace A and B don't exist here, so they're not an
> issue). The special CVFR permit has since ceased to exist.
>
>> For flying at night, you need -- you guessed it -- a special license.
>
> Still true
>
>> Then, there is the tower. Germans are in love with towers. They can
>> not imagine an airport without one, so even the non-towered airports
>> are having a tower.
>
> Except it's not called a tower then.
>
>> And on every tower sits a governmental authorized "Flugleiter" ,
>> required by law ; without him the airports would be unauthorized to
be
>> used.
>
> There are initiatives to allow unmanned airports, and there are a
couple
> where it's practiced "experimentally".
>
>> (about "terror" prevention)
>
> Most of what he says is true, but it was only introduced after 911-
2001
> (which also triggered a scare here). Yes some of what we read from the
> US in this context is even more bizarre, so what are you all wondering
> about?
>
>> Germany does not treat airports as part of the public transportation
>> system, believing that airports should finance themselves.
>
> Not true. Many public airports are heavily subsidised for the sake of
> attracting business to the region and/or as a public service. This
does
> not go for privately run ones of course.
>
>> They also don't see the airway system as a matter for the government;
>> it should fund itself off the fees.
>
> Wuite distorted. Until a few years ago, it was a matter of the
> government (and still is legally). What happened then was
deregulation,
> the national control got privatised, much to the chagrin of many
> people. That's not so much a "German" vs "US" way of doing things, but
> ultracapitalism vs. common sense. I think you folks have some similar
> problems over there.
>
>> It's 6 to 10 Euros per landing on a non towered airport, depending on
>> your aircraft's noise certificate.
>
> I pay 2 to 3 EUR per landing, but microlights tend to be cheaper.
>
>> They also avoid leaving the country because that requires a flight
>> plan and landing at customs airports in Germany and France, for
>> example, where you are facing lots of fees (landing, customs, plus
>> ATC).
>
> You don't have to do that inside the Schengen area, which France is
> part of.
>
>> To identify positively who is generating what costs, the authorities
>> are pushing for mode S transponders
>
> The assumed reason is a projection.
>
>> While any German can take his car and drive to Paris without being
>> asked one question, we pilots need to have the second class
>> communication certificate first, file for a flight plan, land at a
>> customs airport in Germany and France respectively
>
> Only partially true, see Schengen
>
>> and you can't even fly to a Paris airport then, because Paris is
>> surrounded by class Alpha airspace
>
> Haven't I been reading complaints about restricted flying around
> Washington DC here, and some whatchumacallit military zones that crop
> up in the US in all sorts of places?
>
> Meanwhile I can fly into most of Berlin. Actually it was all of
Berlin,
> until in 2005 a GA pilot decided to crash his aircraft in front of the
> German parliament. Turned out he had killed his wife the day before.
> They installed a circular no-fly-zone around the parliament which
> includes most of the city centre afterwards. Wouldn't the American
> government have reacted similarly to a comparable event?
>
> (Weather)
>
>> It is a governmental institution that is half privatized to
>> reduce costs to the tax payer.
>
> And to generate income for some people .. True, but many nations have
> similar idiotic policies. I hope they go away soon.
>
>
>> unless you're turning 65; from then on Germans need to get that
second
>> class medical every 6 month!
>
> I think that rule was undone some time ago.
>
>> A young person must be very dedicated to go through the long and
>> costly process of getting a pilot license.
>
> Is that different from your country?
>
>> All German airports are having some noise restrictions in place.
>
> I don't know what he's talking about here.
>
>> Especially on week-ends where I with the Ercoupe can't do touch and
>> goes on most of the airports. I have to wait at least one hour for
>> another take-off.
>
> Huh?? He should look at some other airports to do touch & gos.
>
>
> Bottom line: Most of the facts are correct, but his viewpoint is very
> "American" and not very flexible. He makes it sound as if flying here
> is extremely hard or difficult to achive and as if the rules were a
> nightmare. Fact is that it's quite affordable and comparatively easy
if
> you set your mind to it, and the rules (of which some are quite silly
I
> agree) aren't really such a nuisance, and can be avoided if you know
> how to.
>

Easy if you're German. If you're not, you're in for one long argument
with everyone from the border police (who once took a great interest in
my cafeteria card) to ATC, AIS, customs and the guy you try and buy a
beer from after you finish flying.


I once did a flight test on an airplane Lufty had done a C check on.
You'd have thought we were launching the Mars shuttle. The briefing to
do a relatively simple 30 min flight test took most of the morning. I
did another at Bordeaux years later. Two Gallic shrugs and an hour later
we were done with twice the manuevers accomplished.

And bring several pens, you'll run them all dry sgining things.

"Never argue with a German if you're tired" ~ Jefferson Airplane


Bertie

[Stefan]

Jim Logajan schrieb:

> I suppose one way to compare affordability and ease of acquiring a license
> or certificate is to compare the fraction of population that have acquired
> them. For the U.S. I believe about 1 in 500 people have a pilot certificate
> (~0.2%). (The FAA published stats on number of active certificate holders
> on its web site.) Are there numbers available for other countries like
> Germany?

I don't know the number, but whatever it is, it doesn't tell much. Or,
it rather tells much about the different interests. Face it, most people
in Germany are interested in different things than most people in the
USA. E.g. soccer is probably the most popular sport in Germany, while
baseball is pretty much inexistant. Or, to stay with aviation: While
there may be less power pilots in Germany than in the USA, there are
many more glider pilots, probably even by the rough number, but
certainly by the percentage of the population. For most Germans, private
flying is just a sport and not a means of transport, for many reasons
other than money or regulation.

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "MH" == Martin Hotze > writes:

MH> I know more than 10 people personally who *did* that back then
MH> (myself included [1]) but excluded this country for a couple
MH> of years now for further visits (not only for flying but also
MH> for leisure/pleasure).

Hey, c'mon down! Well, come on over. California is friendly :-)
That's what you get for visiting those fly-over red states. We can
start repairing the damage about 13 months from now.
--
Don't try to teach a pig to sing, it can't be done and it only ticks
off the pig.
~ Robert Heinlein

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "WS" == Wolfgang Schwanke > writes:

WS> Haven't I been reading complaints about restricted flying
WS> around Washington DC here, and some whatchumacallit military
WS> zones that crop up in the US in all sorts of places?

Surely. I myself was caught in one of these "pop-up" Temporary Flight
Restrictions (TFRs) almost 2 years ago...only because our Vice,
Cheney, dropped in for a day to raise campaign money. These so-called
VIP TFRs are most annoying. Other TFRs, like for fires or other
disasters, make sense and can often be inferred while flying. For a while
Bush wanted to criminalize TFR violations! But that was shot down.
Only 13 more months of our own Nazi regime.
--
Do not mind anything that anyone tells you about anyone else. Judge
everyone and everything for yourself.
~ Henry James

[[email protected]]

> I know more than 10 people personally who *did* that back then (myself
> included [1]) but excluded this country for a couple of years now for
> further visits (not only for flying but also for leisure/pleasure).
>

Why so? I think the US is a pretty awesome place for leisure
activities. Germany is too but we have autobahns here (in the sky) ;-)

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote

> FYI, most of the German autobahns (70 or so percent) are regulated and
> restricted to a max. speed of only 130 km/h - or less.
How long has it been like that?

I visited our former exchange student in Germany, many years ago (18 or a
few more, as a guess) and the road we drove on was not regulated, or the
driver (cousin of the exchange student) that picked us up at the airport did
not drive like there was a limit.

We crammed 5 of us into the Ford Fiesta, with our luggage, and took off. It
was bottoming out at almost every bump. I could not see the speedometer,
but we were hauling ass, for sure. I don't mind fast speeds in a car that
is designed for it, but I don't think Ford had those speeds and loads in
mind for that car!

With that little car, at those speeds, I decided that it would be better to
take a nap, to get a start on the jet lag. I also didn't have to watch my
possible impending demise, also! <g>
--
Jim in NC

[[email protected]]

> Hey, c'mon down! *Well, come on over. *California is friendly :-)
> That's what you get for visiting those fly-over red states. *We can
> start repairing the damage about 13 months from now.

Texas is friendlier.

Ya'll.

Besides we have better BBQ close to the local airports.

;)

[[email protected]]

> Why so? Due to the development in recent
> years. This is - and this is a sentiment I share with many others - not
> only a con-Bush thing (and I doubt that there will be a substantial
> change with somebody else as elected Kin^wQuee^wPresident). IMHO the
> climate towards strangers and foreigners from the general public changed
> dramatically (sadly enough this also happened here in Europe). In the
> same time the old Europe grew up and took position (not always the best
> position, though).

That's a crock, about the ferners I mean. ("ferners" is Texas slang
for "foreigners"). Lots of people are PO'd about illegal immigration.
Yeah well whatever. Generally the mood toward ferners is far more
conciliatory here in the US than what I experienced when I lived in
Germany. The Turks and Middle Easterner's and whatnot have only been
accepted due to raw need post WWII and TREMENDOUS social pressure to
not be seen as anti-foreigner. In Germany you're pressured to either
extreme (by Ami standards) either to the left (these days) or to the
right (in the 30s). What the hell.

Amusingly, last time I was in Germany last spring, the biggest jerk by
far was some middle eastern guy who was waiting tables at a restaurant
where I was at. He drove off with a friend while my wife and I were
still eating. He'd waited on us and knew I had an accent at least as
powerful as his own. He shouts out "Auslaender RAUS!" (foreigner's
out!) in our general direction. Heh.

Anyway you should be free to boycott any country for whatever
political reasons you want.

> FYI, most of the German autobahns (70 or so percent) are regulated and
> restricted to a max. speed of only 130 km/h - or less.

When they are not "regulated" by traffic jams down to 30 or 40 kph. ;)

[[email protected]]

On Dec 26, 4:49*pm, "Morgans" > wrote:
> "Martin Hotze" > wrote
>
> > FYI, most of the German autobahns (70 or so percent) are regulated and
> > restricted to a max. speed of only 130 km/h - or less.
>
> *How long has it been like that?

When I lived there in 1985 to about 1991 it was as that man says,
mostly regulated.

There were a few stretches here and there where you could go flat out
if the traffic allowed. Of course the traffic never really allowed.

[oilsardine[_2_]]

on my daily commute (30km one-way, Autobahn) there is almost every morning
a few km where I can go 200+ km/h. Makes my day.


> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
On Dec 26, 4:49 pm, "Morgans" > wrote:
> "Martin Hotze" > wrote
>
> > FYI, most of the German autobahns (70 or so percent) are regulated and
> > restricted to a max. speed of only 130 km/h - or less.
>
> How long has it been like that?

When I lived there in 1985 to about 1991 it was as that man says,
mostly regulated.

There were a few stretches here and there where you could go flat out
if the traffic allowed. Of course the traffic never really allowed.

[Bertie the Bunyip]

On Dec 27, 9:14 am, "oilsardine" > wrote:
> on my daily commute (30km one-way, Autobahn) there is almost every morning
> a few km where I can go 200+ km/h. Makes my day.
>
> > schrieb im ...
> On Dec 26, 4:49 pm, "Morgans" > wrote:
>
> > "Martin Hotze" > wrote
>
> > > FYI, most of the German autobahns (70 or so percent) are regulated and
> > > restricted to a max. speed of only 130 km/h - or less.
>
> > How long has it been like that?
>
> When I lived there in 1985 to about 1991 it was as that man says,
> mostly regulated.
>
> There were a few stretches here and there where you could go flat out
> if the traffic allowed. Of course the traffic never really allowed.



You must be kidding! I've been up to over 160 KM/h in a bus!
Once, while on approach in a stiff wind, (MY GS would have been about
115 knots, so call it 125 mph) I was passed by a car on the autobahn
beneath me. Now, I was used to this in Cubs and what not, but in a
jet?

Bertie

[[email protected]]

> You must be kidding! I've been up to over 160 KM/h in a bus!
> Once, while on approach in a stiff wind, (MY GS would have been about
> 115 knots, so call it 125 mph) I was passed by a car on the autobahn
> beneath me. Now, I was used to this in Cubs and what not, but in a
> jet?

Crazy Germans.

Well, we all know how what a speed limit is for, aye?

I found it most useful to spend every bit as much time looking in the
rear view mirror as looking forward while driving the German
autobahns. In fact it was the regulated areas with speed limits that
were more dangerous, mainly because not everyone followed the
"regulation". Motorcyclists and big Mercedes / BMWs were the biggest
perps, roaring past at 200-220 kph -- damn show-off bastids.

[[email protected]]

On Dec 27, 3:14*am, "oilsardine" > wrote:
> on *my daily commute (30km one-way, Autobahn) *there is almost every morning
> a few km where I can go 200+ km/h. Makes my day.

You must drive a Daimler or a BMW or a motorcycle!

[oilsardine[_2_]]

Focus ST with Bluefin level 2 chiptuning is sufficient to takeover all 250
kmh limited heavy irons ;-))

> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
On Dec 27, 3:14 am, "oilsardine" > wrote:
> on my daily commute (30km one-way, Autobahn) there is almost every morning
> a few km where I can go 200+ km/h. Makes my day.

You must drive a Daimler or a BMW or a motorcycle!

[[email protected]]

On Dec 27, 10:28*am, "oilsardine" > wrote:
> Focus ST with Bluefin level 2 chiptuning is sufficient to takeover all 250
> kmh limited heavy irons ;-))

Hah -- toll!

The "Heavy Iron" left behind in shame. I can see their glaring faces
even now ...

[Thomas Borchert]

Wolfgang,

> Private pilots here simply don't do it, because the costs of acquiring
> and maintaining an IFR licence are prohibitive.
>

Uhm, objection! Getting the IR is very expensive. Maintaining it isn't.
Not by a long shot. That's because there is simply no difference in cost
for VFR and IFR flying below 2 tonnes MTOW. If you fly a sensible amount
of hours per year to remain VFR current, you'll be able to do the same
IFR. If, OTOH, you fly ultralights which cannot do IFR, that's another
story.

> but with some of the
> newer designs you're actually faster and more comfortable than some of
> the "real" pilots.
>

Except, you can't fly IFR which, depending on pilot attitude, might lead
to much riskier "scud running" flying.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)