Russian Yula Backpack Helo

[robert arndt]

http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/06/11/30172.html

Too bad they got the history wrong. The Germans had it first during
WW2 with Baumgartl's Heliofly III:

http://www.germanvtol.com/baumgartl/baungertl.html

Rob

[Chad Irby]

In article >,
(robert arndt) wrote:

> http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/06/11/30172.html
>
> Too bad they got the history wrong. The Germans had it first during
> WW2 with Baumgartl's Heliofly III:
>
> http://www.germanvtol.com/baumgartl/baungertl.html

The Heliofly III, as actually built, wasn't a backpack helicopter, as
evidenced by the photograph at the bottom of the same page you cite.

The Heliofly I was a backpack autogyro, which is a similar (though very
limited) idea.

Note also that designers as far back as the 1920s had suggested backpack
or personally-worn autogyros or powered flight rigs.

Once again, a German scientist in the 1935-1945 era who drew something
he couldn't build...

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

[robert arndt]

Chad Irby > wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> (robert arndt) wrote:
>
> > http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/06/11/30172.html
> >
> > Too bad they got the history wrong. The Germans had it first during
> > WW2 with Baumgartl's Heliofly III:
> >
> > http://www.germanvtol.com/baumgartl/baungertl.html
>
> The Heliofly III, as actually built, wasn't a backpack helicopter, as
> evidenced by the photograph at the bottom of the same page you cite.

That is the final Heliofly III-59, not the RLM-contracted Heliofly
III-57 with twin co-axial rotors powered by two As-8 motors.
>
> The Heliofly I was a backpack autogyro, which is a similar (though very
> limited) idea.

True, but his 1941 design led to official RLM contract for a military
version, the Heliofly III-57. Although I've never seen any photos
(yet) to verify it, Baumgartl experimented with powered versions of
Heliofly I before the final Heliofly III-59.
>
> Note also that designers as far back as the 1920s had suggested backpack
> or personally-worn autogyros or powered flight rigs.

And the Germans had strapped rockets onto ice skaters in the '20s too
which became the inspiration for the 1940s Himmelsturmer one man
rocketpack which was captured and turned over to Bell for postwar
testing. Bell later claimed one of its own engineers invented the
Rocketpack (aka Rocketbelt)... which is a lie. They got their idea
from the captured German device.
>
> Once again, a German scientist in the 1935-1945 era who drew something
> he couldn't build...

Baumgartl wasn't a scientist and he did work under RLM contract to
power the Heliofly I.
May I remind you too that it was the Germans that had several
operational rotorcraft in WW2: the Fa-330 autogyro carried by U-boats,
the Fl-282 which was used to great effect in the Aegean, Med, and
Baltic as enemy submarine spotters as well as by the German army in
Berlin as artillery spotter, and the Fa-223 which supported mountain
units, lifting 75mm guns up 2000 meters to their crews as well as
serving in the resupply and rescue roles. Germany had all kinds of
designs for even more advanced helos including gunships, crane helos,
and troops carriers.

Rob

[Keith Willshaw]

"robert arndt" > wrote in message
m...

> power the Heliofly I.
> May I remind you too that it was the Germans that had several
> operational rotorcraft in WW2: the Fa-330 autogyro carried by U-boats,
> the Fl-282 which was used to great effect in the Aegean, Med, and
> Baltic as enemy submarine spotters as well as by the German army in
> Berlin as artillery spotter, and the Fa-223 which supported mountain
> units, lifting 75mm guns up 2000 meters to their crews as well as
> serving in the resupply and rescue roles. Germany had all kinds of
> designs for even more advanced helos including gunships, crane helos,
> and troops carriers.
>

Juan de Cierva built his first rotrcraft in 1923 and Cierva autogyros
were commercially available in the late 1920's. In September 1926
he flew a number of demonstrations in Germany, one of them at
Berlin Templehof.

The crucial breakthrough for rotorcraft was the Hafner ARIII Gyroplane
developed by Austrian Raoul Hafner in Britain in 1935. This
introduced all the features of the modern helicopter, hinged rotors,
and swashplate along with cyclic and collective controls.

Hafner decided not to stay in the Germany of the late 30's
and emigrated to the UK where worked for the allies instead.

Keith

[The Enlightenment]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
...
>
> "robert arndt" > wrote in message
> m...
>
> > power the Heliofly I.
> > May I remind you too that it was the Germans that had several
> > operational rotorcraft in WW2: the Fa-330 autogyro carried by
U-boats,
> > the Fl-282 which was used to great effect in the Aegean, Med, and
> > Baltic as enemy submarine spotters as well as by the German army
in
> > Berlin as artillery spotter, and the Fa-223 which supported
mountain
> > units, lifting 75mm guns up 2000 meters to their crews as well as
> > serving in the resupply and rescue roles. Germany had all kinds of
> > designs for even more advanced helos including gunships, crane
helos,
> > and troops carriers.
> >
>
> Juan de Cierva built his first rotrcraft in 1923 and Cierva
autogyros
> were commercially available in the late 1920's. In September 1926
> he flew a number of demonstrations in Germany, one of them at
> Berlin Templehof.
>
> The crucial breakthrough for rotorcraft was the Hafner ARIII
Gyroplane
> developed by Austrian Raoul Hafner in Britain in 1935. This
> introduced all the features of the modern helicopter, hinged rotors,
> and swashplate along with cyclic and collective controls.

Tomy tricks. Lets quote that in complete context:
http://avia.russian.ee/vertigo/hafner_gyroplane-r.html

In 1935 Austrian-born Raoul Hafner flew the first combined
cyclic-and-collective control system on an autogiro with articulated
blades. Although this machine was NOT CAPABLE of HOVERING, it marks a
milestone in helicopter technnology.






>
> Hafner decided not to stay in the Germany of the late 30's
> and emigrated to the UK where worked for the allies instead.
>
> Keith
>
>
>

[Keith Willshaw]

"The Enlightenment" > wrote in message
...
>

> >
> > The crucial breakthrough for rotorcraft was the Hafner ARIII
> Gyroplane
> > developed by Austrian Raoul Hafner in Britain in 1935. This
> > introduced all the features of the modern helicopter, hinged rotors,
> > and swashplate along with cyclic and collective controls.
>
> Tomy tricks. Lets quote that in complete context:
> http://avia.russian.ee/vertigo/hafner_gyroplane-r.html
>

I didnt quote it at all

> In 1935 Austrian-born Raoul Hafner flew the first combined
> cyclic-and-collective control system on an autogiro with articulated
> blades. Although this machine was NOT CAPABLE of HOVERING, it marks a
> milestone in helicopter technnology.
>

And your point is ?

Keith

[The Enlightenment]

"Chad Irby" > wrote in message
m...
> In article >,
> (robert arndt) wrote:
>
> > http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/06/11/30172.html
> >
> > Too bad they got the history wrong. The Germans had it first
during
> > WW2 with Baumgartl's Heliofly III:
> >
> > http://www.germanvtol.com/baumgartl/baungertl.html
>
> The Heliofly III, as actually built, wasn't a backpack helicopter,
as
> evidenced by the photograph at the bottom of the same page you cite.
>
> The Heliofly I was a backpack autogyro, which is a similar (though
very
> limited) idea.
>
> Note also that designers as far back as the 1920s had suggested
backpack
> or personally-worn autogyros or powered flight rigs.
>
> Once again, a German scientist in the 1935-1945 era who drew
something
> he couldn't build...

I note that you habitualy seek to discredit in every possible way
anything of German or Russian origin.

Those "German Scientists" managed to:

Draw, build and test the first sustainable turbojet. Yes, von Ohain
did beat Whittle though von Ohain was a good sport about it in
crediting Whittle for his first use of kerosene as opposed to
hydrogen.

Draw, build and fly the worlds first gas turbine aircraft by years
ahead of any other

Draw, build and introduce the first Jet fighter.

Draw, build and introdouce in to service the worlds first helicopter.
The FA223 Drache that was capable of 105mph, could fly 400miles and
lift 500kg of bombs and depth charges and carry 4 plus a thr pilot. A
helicopter that could recover an Me109 or lift a howitzer and had an
electric winch. A thousand would have been built apart for bombing
of its factories.
http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Dictionary/Fa_223/DI52.htm


Draw, build and introdouce the Fletner Fl 282 Kolibri (hummingbird)
intermeshing rotor helicopter which was entirely succesfull and used
in SAR and anti-submarine work. The only thing that prevented the
production run of 70 extending to 1000 was allied bombing.
http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Rotary/flettner/HE6.htm

Draw, build and introduce the worlds first cruise missile the V1.

Draw, build and introduce the worlds first hypersonic ballistic
misllile controlled by gyroscopes and accelerometers the V2

Draw, build and bench test the worlds first turbofan the Daimler Benz
011-007

Draw, build and fly tailess and swept wing aircraft.

Have in sevice a fleet of Diesel powered aircraft that could fly non
stop from Lisbon to New York.

Draw, build and fly a Jet flying wing aircfraft that consisted of a
sandwitched plywood constuction; the filling of which was a radar
absorbing graphite particle board and by many accounts had re-entrant
stuctures (Go 229)

Build Mach 5.5 cannon fired scramjets.

So quite a lot of succesfully realised drawings.





Eventualy NASA will probably pick up on Sangers sensible piggy back
ideas for an RLV instead of pussyfooting around with semi-disposables
and impracticable SSTO concepts.



..

[The Enlightenment]

"robert arndt" > wrote in message
om...
> http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/06/11/30172.html
>
> Too bad they got the history wrong. The Germans had it first during
> WW2 with Baumgartl's Heliofly III:
>
> http://www.germanvtol.com/baumgartl/baungertl.html
>
> Rob


"Some Russian Internet publications reported about the unique
development of the Omsk aerospace association Polyot (Flight), which
developed a backpack helicopter: Yula. This aircraft does not have any
analogue in the whole world. The weight of the helicopter is 20 kilos,
the flight speed is 120 kilometers per hour, the flying height is 1000
meters, and the active time of the flight is 25 minutes. When the
helicopter is folded, it looks like a roll 50 cm long. "

It sounds quite dangerous in that blades might be quite dangerous if
the hit the ground when a pilot stumbled. Nevertheless cold tip jet
ducted fans or cold tip jet rotors are all possible as are miniature
turboshafts.

On the other hand it is safer than the Williams back pack turbofan
belts developed in the US: Failure allows auto rotation.

[Chad Irby]

In article >,
(robert arndt) wrote:

> Chad Irby > wrote in message
> >...
> > In article >,
> > (robert arndt) wrote:
> >
> > > http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/06/11/30172.html
> > >
> > > Too bad they got the history wrong. The Germans had it first during
> > > WW2 with Baumgartl's Heliofly III:
> > >
> > > http://www.germanvtol.com/baumgartl/baungertl.html
> >
> > The Heliofly III, as actually built, wasn't a backpack helicopter, as
> > evidenced by the photograph at the bottom of the same page you cite.
>
> That is the final Heliofly III-59, not the RLM-contracted Heliofly
> III-57 with twin co-axial rotors powered by two As-8 motors.

....that never got built (as it says on the page you cite above), and
only existed as, yet again, a drawing by a German scientist.

> > The Heliofly I was a backpack autogyro, which is a similar (though very
> > limited) idea.
>
> True, but his 1941 design led to official RLM contract for a military
> version, the Heliofly III-57. Although I've never seen any photos
> (yet) to verify it, Baumgartl experimented with powered versions of
> Heliofly I before the final Heliofly III-59.

No, he didn't. He drew a version of the -I with motors on it, never got
motors that would do the job, and built a small copter of a completely
different design.

> > Note also that designers as far back as the 1920s had suggested backpack
> > or personally-worn autogyros or powered flight rigs.
>
> And the Germans had strapped rockets onto ice skaters in the '20s too

That was a common "stunt" practice in the barnstorming days of the 1920s
in the US. Strap a few black-powder rockets on some poor schmuck, light
them, watch the guy fall over.

> which became the inspiration for the 1940s Himmelsturmer one man
> rocketpack which was captured and turned over to Bell for postwar
> testing. Bell later claimed one of its own engineers invented the
> Rocketpack (aka Rocketbelt)... which is a lie. They got their idea
> from the captured German device.

Actually, the idea of one-man rocket belts goes back a few centuries
(ancient China), and was mentioned many times in the American fantastic
literature of the 1920-1940 period (the best-known example was the first
Buck Rogers novel in 1928), well before that mythical German rocket belt.

> > Once again, a German scientist in the 1935-1945 era who drew something
> > he couldn't build...
>
> Baumgartl wasn't a scientist and he did work under RLM contract to
> power the Heliofly I.

Well, if he wasn't a scientist, then it's no surprise that he never
built the actual powered Heliofly backpack version.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

[Chad Irby]

"The Enlightenment" > wrote:

> "Chad Irby" > wrote:

> > Once again, a German scientist in the 1935-1945 era who drew
> > something he couldn't build...
>
> I note that you habitualy seek to discredit in every possible way
> anything of German or Russian origin.

Just the silly claims by one or two people - Herr Arndt, who claims
that, basically, everything in aviation for the last half-century was
invented by the Nazis, and Denyav, who claims that eveything the Soviets
ever built was better than anything the Americans ever built.

> Those "German Scientists" managed to:

(snip)

Wow, Arndt has a fan club.

I never said the Germans weren't important, or that they didn't invent
the things they *did* invent. I just enjoy pointing out the severe
delusion Arndt has about the overwhelming perfect technical genius of
the WWII German military machine.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

[robert arndt]

..
> >
> > Once again, a German scientist in the 1935-1945 era who drew
> something
> > he couldn't build...
>
> I note that you habitualy seek to discredit in every possible way
> anything of German or Russian origin.
>
> Those "German Scientists" managed to:
>
> Draw, build and test the first sustainable turbojet. Yes, von Ohain
> did beat Whittle though von Ohain was a good sport about it in
> crediting Whittle for his first use of kerosene as opposed to
> hydrogen.
>
> Draw, build and fly the worlds first gas turbine aircraft by years
> ahead of any other (He-178 flown Aug 24/27, 1939)
>
> Draw, build and introduce the first Jet fighter. (Designed He-280 with first used ejection seat, then Me-262)
>
> Draw, build and introdouce in to service the worlds first helicopter.
> The FA223 Drache that was capable of 105mph, could fly 400miles and
> lift 500kg of bombs and depth charges and carry 4 plus a thr pilot. A
> helicopter that could recover an Me109 or lift a howitzer and had an
> electric winch. A thousand would have been built apart for bombing
> of its factories.
> http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Dictionary/Fa_223/DI52.htm
>
> (Note: First practical helicopter was Fw-61 demonstrator)

> Draw, build and introdouce the Fletner Fl 282 Kolibri (hummingbird)
> intermeshing rotor helicopter which was entirely succesfull and used
> in SAR and anti-submarine work. The only thing that prevented the
> production run of 70 extending to 1000 was allied bombing.
> http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Rotary/flettner/HE6.htm
>
> Draw, build and introduce the worlds first cruise missile the V1. (Note: original FZG was Argus As-292, a target drone... by wars end it was fitted with and IR camera and may be considered the first UAV)
>
> Draw, build and introduce the worlds first hypersonic ballistic
> misllile controlled by gyroscopes and accelerometers the V2
>
> Draw, build and bench test the worlds first turbofan the Daimler Benz
> 011-007 (in addition to the world's first afterburning engine the Jumo 004E and largest axial flow jet DB 016 at 28,652 lb st)
>
> Draw, build and fly tailess and swept wing aircraft. (As well as swept-forward wing Ju-287, delta Lp. DM-1, and ground variable-sweep Me P.1101)
>
> Have in sevice a fleet of Diesel powered aircraft that could fly non
> stop from Lisbon to New York. (Ju 290 and 390 aircraft set many records with the 390 setting an endurance of 32 hrs and a flight that once took it to within 12 miles of NY)
>
> Draw, build and fly a Jet flying wing aircfraft that consisted of a
> sandwitched plywood constuction; the filling of which was a radar
> absorbing graphite particle board and by many accounts had re-entrant
> stuctures (Go 229) (which also was painted with carbon-loaded Schornsteinfeger anti-radar paint making it a dedicated stealth aircraft)
>
> Build Mach 5.5 cannon fired scramjets.
> (Confused on this one- 105mm test ramjet shells?)
> So quite a lot of succesfully realised drawings.
>
>
>
>
>
> Eventualy NASA will probably pick up on Sangers sensible piggy back
> ideas for an RLV instead of pussyfooting around with semi-disposables
> and impracticable SSTO concepts. (Sanger is still alive and may yet yield a craft that could pull double duty as a Luftwaffe LEO bomber)


Nice List I might add. I could further this list with a few hundred
other German firsts and technological innovations but I'll save it for
later. This is NOT to say that all the rest of the major combatants
didn't have great weapons too. I am NOT all pro-German. The Allies had
more war-winning weapons than the Germans and led in radar
development, proximity fuses, computer technology, the atomic bomb,
and masses of good tanks, ships, and aircraft). Hell, by the end of
the war it was the US that was making the most out of Blitzkrieg
warfare because they had the industrial means to accomplish it. What I
have always pointed out was the fact that Germany produced such
sophisticated and high tech weapons under total bombardment and while
being deluged with numerical and material superiority. The US has no
excuse for not leading in ALL areas since the US mainland was not
bombed or occupied at all.

Rob
>
>
>
> .