IFR to Charlotte in a Mooney

[[email protected]]

Anyone flown IFR into CLT in a piston single? I've got a commercial
flight leaving CLT next month. I'd be flying in around 4pm on
weekday.

Thanks!
Chris

[BillJ]

wrote:
> Anyone flown IFR into CLT in a piston single? I've got a commercial
> flight leaving CLT next month. I'd be flying in around 4pm on
> weekday.
>
> Thanks!
> Chris
Doubt you would have a problem, but you could call Charlotte ATC (phone
numbers in AOPA directory) and ask if they have a "push" at that time.
Sometimes changing by 30 mins to avoid the push will save you some delays.

[Mike[_4_]]

wrote:
> Anyone flown IFR into CLT in a piston single? I've got a commercial
> flight leaving CLT next month. I'd be flying in around 4pm on
> weekday.
>
> Thanks!
> Chris
I flew into CLT about 6 or 7 years ago in an Archer, when US Air was
somewhat busier than they are now.
No real problems... I came in from the south-southwest and started
getting vectors about 30-40 miles out. The only real "problem" I had
was that the controllers changed the planned runway on me three times
during the approach (VFR conditions, thankfully). None of the changes
caused any real problems for me, so no real issue and I think that after
all that, the controllers were thankful that I didn't complain and they
were very helpful/accommodating. I got a "keep the speed up on final as
long as practical", but I had assumed that anyway.
Mike Pvt/IFR Archer II N44979 at KRYY

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[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

wrote:
> Anyone flown IFR into CLT in a piston single? I've got a commercial
> flight leaving CLT next month. I'd be flying in around 4pm on
> weekday.


I used to fly in and out of Charlotte twice a day in a Lance. There's a big
push around 0730-0900 that I would avoid at all costs. Beyond that it's not all
that scary. Just another busy airport but hardly a JFK or Hartsfield. Getting
in is easier than getting out. All the GA aircraft park over on the
southeastern side of 18L/36R. Do your best to get on that side of the airport
if you have any choice in approachs.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[[email protected]]

John, et. al.

Thanks to all for the great info!

I know what you mean about landing on 23 and turning before the
intersection. I was lucky enough to get into DCA before it was
shutdown to GA. I was given ILS36 circle 3 and made the turnoff
before the intersection - even after tower asked "minimum time thru
interesection". I was somewhat disappointed I did not get an "atta
boy" on that one, but I was also in 172 then, so maybe it was
expected.

I also talked to my departure controller today (CAE). They have a LOA
with CLT - Single pistons can go IFR direct below 7K, rather than
being assigned the UNARM arrival - waaaay out to the west before back
in.

Getting all the info before going is important - not many people
probably know about the LOA's between sectors/airspace. The only way
I know of finding out about those is to ask the local controller, i.e.
no web site or info in the AF/D.

Again, thanks for the local tricks - intersection departures/slow
times, etc. My main concern in getting in to make my commercial
connection, I really don't mind the wait going out.

Any idea what the FBO charges for ramp space? I know there is a $15
landing fee waived with 10 gal purchase.

On Sun, 6 Jan 2008 09:07:27 -0500, "John Collins"
> wrote:

>Chris,
>
>Arrive and depart during the slow times. The current slow times can be
>found at http://www.cltatct.jccbi.gov/Slowtimes.htm Fuel can be expected to
>be expensive. Your taxi time is much reduced if you can land on 36R/18L. If
>you are arriving VFR, fly to the east of the extended centerline of the
>north/south runways before you contact approach control and well before you
>enter the Class B. This will give you the greatest chance of getting a
>runway on the FBO side.
>
>On 36R, the turnoff to the FBO is more than 3000 ft from the threshold and
>is angled, though not quite a high speed. Try to get off at this exit, the
>second one on the right. Don't get off at the first exit to the right, as
>departing GA traffic use this for an intersection departure.
>
>On 18L, you might want to request landing long and plan to touch down about
>a 1000 ft beyond the crossing runway. The FBO is on the left past the
>National Guard ramp.
>
>If you have good short field performance and are assigned 23, there is
>approximately 1100 feet from the threshold to the first taxiway to the left
>(taxiway D) and it is angled although not a high speed. Right after this
>taxiway you cross 18 L and may have an extended taxi to the ramp as you must
>cross the active runway. In my Bonanza I only need about 700 feet of ground
>roll to get stopped with no wind, so I like to turn off at taxiway D when
>landing on 23. This usually amazes the tower, but the taxiway is straight
>to the FBO without crossing any runways. The taxiways are wide and often
>ground control will have two GA types pass each other with both given
>instructions to remain to the right.
>
>Remember to use the correct ATIS for arrival and departure. When you call
>for your departure clearance, just read back your transponder code unless
>you have a question. I prefer to do my run-up prior to calling for taxi, I
>hold short of Taxiway D on the Wilson ramp.
>
>If you are departing during a push, do not accept an intersection departure,
>only use full length. Once you are in line, your TO position is first come
>first serve. Keep back 200 to 300 feet behind the jet in front of you so
>you won't get blown off the taxiway. You can wait for ever during a push at
>an intersection. If traffic is light, accept the intersection departure.
>If you are full length, you can depart sooner if you waive the wake
>turbulence delay, but only do this if there have just been departures in
>front of you and no heavies in front such as a 767 or 757. Just plan to
>liftoff within the first 1500 ft of runway, well before the point the jet
>aircraft are rotating.
>
>Expect to be asked to keep up your speed on approach and final and be
>situationally aware of traffic behind you. Plan to spend the minimum time
>on the runway you can. It helps if on final that you visually identify your
>touchdown point and which taxiway you plan on exiting the runway. You make
>no friends if you cause a go around.
>
>If it is IFR, I like to fly about a half a dot of fly down on the HSI to
>avoid wake turbulence. I am ok following a jet on final, but just plan on
>remaining at or above his flight path and touch down well past where he
>touches down. I won't accept a landing if I am closely following an
>arriving jet and the tower advises of a departing jet before my arrival,
>I'll just call going around and ask for a vector. So far, the tower has
>always asked for the reason, I tell them I can't avoid wake turbulence
>behind a arriving jet and departing jet. In the few times this has happened
>to me, the tower has instructed the departing jet to hold short. My other
>wake turbulence avoidance no-no is allowing a vector to place my path under
>an arriving jet. I will say unable, wake turbulence avoidance.

[Bonehenge (B A R R Y)]

On Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:50:57 -0500, wrote:

>John, et. al.
>
>Thanks to all for the great info!

Don't forget to do your part, and report back!

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Bill Watson wrote:
> How do you waive the wake turbulence delay? Not sure how that works.
> I'm very STOL and can usually avoid it easily.


All you have to do is tell them that you waive wake turbulence separation.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[[email protected]]

On Jan 7, 8:55*pm, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com>
wrote:
> Bill Watson wrote:
> > How do you waive the wake turbulence delay? *Not sure how that works.
> > I'm very STOL and can usually avoid it easily.
>
> All you have to do is tell them that you waive wake turbulence separation.
>
> --
> Mortimer Schnerd, RN
> mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

Be careful about waiving wake turbulence delays at an airport like
this. There are some fine people that should still be with us but are
now six feet under because of this. Saving a few minutes is not worth
rolling upside down and dying in a fiery crash. Have you seen the
videos of visible wake vortices and how long they can persist?
Getting off early before the airliner's rotation point is one thing,
but unless you can outclimb it, you're still going to have to go
through the wake at some point if it hasn't dissipated. If you hit a
bad wake at 200-300 feet it's not much better than hitting it twenty
feet off the deck -- your odds of survival are not good. The, "rotate
quick before the point where they did" plan only works if you can then
make an immediate upwind turn to get out of the flight path.
Operationally you can't always do this.

Watch out for wake from departures on a close parallel too. I got hit
by an F-16's wake as I departed 4L at SSC right after it took off on
4R and it rolled me 60 degrees in about an 1/8 of a second.

[Ron Natalie]

wrote:

>
> Be careful about waiving wake turbulence delays at an airport like
> this. There are some fine people that should still be with us but are
> now six feet under because of this. Saving a few minutes is not worth
> rolling upside down and dying in a fiery crash. Have you seen the
> videos of visible wake vortices and how long they can persist?
> Getting off early before the airliner's rotation point is one thing,
> but unless you can outclimb it, you're still going to have to go
> through the wake at some point if it hasn't dissipated.

Note that it is climb angle not rate that is important. Still best
to request a turn away from the heavier aircraft's flight path.

Also there are circumstances where they will not authorize waiving
the delays (intersections I believe).

In my years of running small planes out of IAD, I found it convenient
just to request to be sequenced behind some commuter turbo prop.
I'd rather depart behind a BE1900 than a 767.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

wrote:
>> Be careful about waiving wake turbulence delays at an airport like
> this. There are some fine people that should still be with us but are
> now six feet under because of this. Saving a few minutes is not worth
> rolling upside down and dying in a fiery crash. Have you seen the
> videos of visible wake vortices and how long they can persist?
> Getting off early before the airliner's rotation point is one thing,
> but unless you can outclimb it, you're still going to have to go
> through the wake at some point if it hasn't dissipated.


Not necessarily. I waived wake turbulence on an almost daily basis back when I
was flying cancelled checks. Wake turbulence forms from the point of takeoff
and goes down and away from the heavier aircraft. It also drifts with the wind,
just as an aircraft will. So how did I waive and avoid with such great success?

I popped off the ground way before the airliner did and turned away anywhere
from 45 to 90 degrees from the runway heading as soon as my gear was up,
depending on my clearance. In other words, I outran it.

I flew the same route every day. I already had my clearance given to me by
Clearance Delivery and it most defintely did not include anything like "hold
runway heading until at 1100 feet".... something that would put in the danger
zone.


> If you hit a
> bad wake at 200-300 feet it's not much better than hitting it twenty
> feet off the deck -- your odds of survival are not good. The, "rotate
> quick before the point where they did" plan only works if you can then
> make an immediate upwind turn to get out of the flight path.
> Operationally you can't always do this.


You'll know after talking with Clearance Delivery. You'd make the request to
waive later to the tower... if it were appropriate. I'm not suggesting it
always would. I'm just saying it often is.


> Watch out for wake from departures on a close parallel too. I got hit
> by an F-16's wake as I departed 4L at SSC right after it took off on
> 4R and it rolled me 60 degrees in about an 1/8 of a second.


Heh.... I once got a healthy scare at altitude following a C-47 a good mile
ahead of me. I can't say with absolute confidence that it was the guilty party
but it was the only exciting rolling turbulence I hit in a 200 mile leg. I was
in a Cherokee Six out over the water coming back from the Bahamas in excellent
VFR weather in the cool of the early morning.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Mike[_4_]]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
> wrote:
>>> Be careful about waiving wake turbulence delays at an airport like
>> this. There are some fine people that should still be with us but are
>> now six feet under because of this. Saving a few minutes is not worth
>> rolling upside down and dying in a fiery crash. Have you seen the
>> videos of visible wake vortices and how long they can persist?
>> Getting off early before the airliner's rotation point is one thing,
>> but unless you can outclimb it, you're still going to have to go
>> through the wake at some point if it hasn't dissipated.
>
>
> Not necessarily. I waived wake turbulence on an almost daily basis back when I
> was flying cancelled checks. Wake turbulence forms from the point of takeoff
> and goes down and away from the heavier aircraft. It also drifts with the wind,
> just as an aircraft will. So how did I waive and avoid with such great success?
>
> I popped off the ground way before the airliner did and turned away anywhere
> from 45 to 90 degrees from the runway heading as soon as my gear was up,
> depending on my clearance. In other words, I outran it.
>
> I flew the same route every day. I already had my clearance given to me by
> Clearance Delivery and it most defintely did not include anything like "hold
> runway heading until at 1100 feet".... something that would put in the danger
> zone.
>
>
>> If you hit a
>> bad wake at 200-300 feet it's not much better than hitting it twenty
>> feet off the deck -- your odds of survival are not good. The, "rotate
>> quick before the point where they did" plan only works if you can then
>> make an immediate upwind turn to get out of the flight path.
>> Operationally you can't always do this.
>
>
> You'll know after talking with Clearance Delivery. You'd make the request to
> waive later to the tower... if it were appropriate. I'm not suggesting it
> always would. I'm just saying it often is.
>
>
>> Watch out for wake from departures on a close parallel too. I got hit
>> by an F-16's wake as I departed 4L at SSC right after it took off on
>> 4R and it rolled me 60 degrees in about an 1/8 of a second.
>
>
> Heh.... I once got a healthy scare at altitude following a C-47 a good mile
> ahead of me. I can't say with absolute confidence that it was the guilty party
> but it was the only exciting rolling turbulence I hit in a 200 mile leg. I was
> in a Cherokee Six out over the water coming back from the Bahamas in excellent
> VFR weather in the cool of the early morning.
>
>
>
One minor nit to quibble about/correct...
The wake turbulence actually begins where the large aircraft rotates,
not where it takes off. For some aircraft this makes little/no
difference, but for a large and heavy aircraft, it can make a
significant difference.
Mike

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