Re: Protestor Damages Enola Gay [Archive]

December 18th 03, 04:03 AM

Both Eisenhower and MacArthur thought otherwise, but what do they
know? Hell, they were just the generals running the war and commanding
the troops who fought it. Probably a couple of bleeding-heart, pinko,
commie, rat-******* liberals anyway. I'm sure YOU know FAR more about
it than they ever did....

"Japan was already defeated and that dropping the
bomb was completely unnecessary"
Dwight Eisenhower, "Mandate for Change", pg 380

"the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't
necessary to hit them with that awful thing."
Dwight Eisenhower, Newsweek, 11/11/63

"No military justification for the dropping of the bomb".
Douglas MacArthur
Norman Cousins, The Pathology of Power, pg. 65

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 12:41:58 +0900, Ernest Schaal
> wrote:

>I agree that there should have been more information in the exhibit. Besides
>mentioning the thousands who died because of the bombs, there should have
>been mention of the greater number of Japanese lives that were spared from
>their inhumane government, who had wanted all Japanese to die rather than
>admit that their leaders lost the war, a war they never could have won.
>
>in article , KenG at
wrote on 12/18/03 10:22 AM:
>
>> And Hunderds of thousands did not die.....
>>
>> KenG
>>
>> Gunnar wrote:
>>> Why not simply include the wanted information in the exhibit ? It seams like
>>> a small request to me.
>>> It is after all true that 100+ thousand humans died because of this
>>> plane/bomb.
>>>
>>> Is history now politically uncorrect in the US ?
>>>
>>> ?
>>> G
>

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Ernest Schaal

December 18th 03, 04:19 AM

Dear Mr. NoSpam,

If you had been keeping up with the news (specifically the Japanese
newspapers), you would have known that even after the Nagasaki bomb was
dropped, the military wanted to continue the struggle to the death of the
last Japanese, rather than admit defeat. There were a few stories to that
effect in the Japan Times within the past year or so. Those stories might
still be accessible somewhere.

Needless to say, both Eisenhower and MacArthur had been dead before those
revelations had been made, although I remember reading about the role of the
emperor in finally admitting the defeat as early as the 1970s.

It is true that many in Japan were ready to surrender, but that didn't
really matter, since the Japan of that time was under the tight control of a
government run by the military. While there were civilians in the
government, the cabinet could be brought down (and often did) at any time by
the Army or Navy quitting from the cabinet. Throughout that period, thought
police persecuted anyone who dared voice a dissenting opinion.

The net result of all this is that Japan has become very pacifist since the
war, and there is major political turmoil with even the sending of
noncombatants to Iraq, or anywhere for that matter. On television, the
Japanese military of the period are often the heavies, far more than the
American military.

Do you ever bother to study Japanese history or Japanese society? Have you
ever visited here or lived here?

in article , at
wrote on 12/18/03 1:03 PM:

>
> Both Eisenhower and MacArthur thought otherwise, but what do they
> know? Hell, they were just the generals running the war and commanding
> the troops who fought it. Probably a couple of bleeding-heart, pinko,
> commie, rat-******* liberals anyway. I'm sure YOU know FAR more about
> it than they ever did....
>
> "Japan was already defeated and that dropping the
> bomb was completely unnecessary"
> Dwight Eisenhower, "Mandate for Change", pg 380
>
> "the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't
> necessary to hit them with that awful thing."
> Dwight Eisenhower, Newsweek, 11/11/63
>
> "No military justification for the dropping of the bomb".
> Douglas MacArthur
> Norman Cousins, The Pathology of Power, pg. 65

I

Ernest Schaal

December 18th 03, 04:39 AM

The Japanese military infrastructure and capacity to wage effective war may
have already been destroyed, and sensible people would have quit under those
circumstances, but according to at least one Japan Times story the military
was quite willing to sacrifice the lives of all Japanese civilians rather
than stand the shame of living with those civilians after losing the war.

Most sources I know of talk about the resistance of the military to
surrender, and the uncommon action of the Emperor of resisting the military
on this matter.

in article , jake at
wrote on 12/18/03 1:34 PM:

> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 13:19:23 +0900, Ernest Schaal
> > wrote:
>
>
>> It is true that many in Japan were ready to surrender, but that didn't
>> really matter,
>
> Very true ...
> what mattered was that Toyko and the Japanese military infrastructure
> and capacity to wage war had been already destroyed.

Ernest Schaal

December 18th 03, 05:10 AM

Jake,

I don't think you don't understand anything about Japanese culture,
especially that of the dark years when the military influence became more
and more dominant.

Whether or not the "Japanese military had already been defeated" doesn't
change the fact that the Japanese deaths would have been much greater if
both bombs had not been dropped. The civilians were being trained to use
bamboo spears to attack any allied troops who landed in Japan.

You speak of "the ravings of defeated meglomaniacs who had LOST their
power." Unfortunately, those "defeated meglomaniacs" had not lost their
political power in Japan. The form of government in Japan was not a
democracy or even a republic, instead it was a continuation of a centuries
old tradition of using the emperor as a figurehead to govern.

I recommend that you read the Meiji Constitution of 1889, which governed the
war years.

Do you know anything about Japanese history?

in article , jake at
wrote on 12/18/03 1:59 PM:

> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 13:39:19 +0900, Ernest Schaal
> > wrote:
>
>> The Japanese military infrastructure and capacity to wage effective war may
>> have already been destroyed, and sensible people would have quit under those
>> circumstances, but according to at least one Japan Times story the military
>> was quite willing to sacrifice the lives of all Japanese civilians rather
>> than stand the shame of living with those civilians after losing the war.
>
> sure...
> I dont doubt it for a moment..throughout human history meglomaniacs
> have always been prepared to do so..
>
> but they were the ravings of defeated meglomaniacs who had LOST their
> power.
>
>> Most sources I know of talk about the resistance of the military to
>> surrender, and the uncommon action of the Emperor of resisting the military
>> on this matter.
>
> Indeed ..
> but the Japanese military had already been defeated..
>
> The nuclear bombs were dropped for other reasons than military..
>
> Nagasaki was chosen as a target almost randomly by the pilot
> because of weather conditions..on the strength of it having a
> Mitsubushi factory there..

Kevin Brooks

December 18th 03, 06:48 AM

"jake" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 14:10:41 +0900, Ernest Schaal
> > wrote:
>
> >Jake,
> >
> >I don't think you don't understand anything about Japanese culture,
> >especially that of the dark years when the military influence became more
> >and more dominant.
> >
> >Whether or not the "Japanese military had already been defeated" doesn't
> >change the fact that the Japanese deaths would have been much greater if
> >both bombs had not been dropped.
>
> this is not a "fact " but your assertion..

An assertion based in facts. The Japanese civilians were already starting to
starve (by the end of July, the average Japanese was subsisting on some 1680
calories per day, and the call had gone out to harvest a couple of million
bushels of acorns to try and stem the tide of starvation)--prolonging the
war would undoubtedly have resulted in a lot of civilian deaths due to
starvation. Add in the deaths that would have resulted from the continuing,
and increasing, conventional aerial bombardment (the B-29 force was still
growing, and after Okinawa fell the potential of aircraft like the B-24 to
be added to the assaulting force was nearing fruition), recalling that more
prople died in Tokyo and its environs due to the earlier incendiary attacks
than died at Hiroshima. Those bypassed Japanese forces in the south and
western Pacific that were already suffering deaths due to starvation would
have lost that many more of their garrisons. Finally, toss in the deaths
that the Japanese alone (disregarding the heavy casulaties that would
undoubtedly have been borne by the Olympic/Coronet assault forces) would
have suffered during an invasion. Add them up and any realistic observer is
going to conclude that they would undoubtedly have exceeded the sum total of
both atomic bomb attacks.

>
> >The civilians were being trained to use
> >bamboo spears to attack any allied troops who landed in Japan.
>
> civilians with bamboo spears would not have been much of a contest for
> the most powerful and technologically superior military machine ever
> assembled in the history of the world..now would it?

Which is why they would have died in dizzying numbers, albeit while taking
some number of US troops with them.

>
>
> >You speak of "the ravings of defeated meglomaniacs who had LOST their
> >power." Unfortunately, those "defeated meglomaniacs" had not lost their
> >political power in Japan.
>
> they lost it the instant the army was defeated..

The Army remained undefeated until the Emperor finally pulled the plug, and
even then there was a hardcore element that tried a last minute coup to
prevent the surrender.

> To quote one of your neighbours..
> "political power grows out of the barrel of a gun"
>
>
> >The form of government in Japan was not a
> >democracy or even a republic, instead it was a continuation of a
centuries
> >old tradition of using the emperor as a figurehead to govern.
>
> And once defeated the form of government became a matter for the
> victors..

Who left a legacy of true democracy; what a shame, huh?

<snip further mindless drivel>

Brooks

Ernest Schaal

December 18th 03, 07:30 AM

in article , jake at
wrote on 12/18/03 2:48 PM:

> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 14:10:41 +0900, Ernest Schaal
> > wrote:
>
>> Jake,
>>
>> I don't think you don't understand anything about Japanese culture,
>> especially that of the dark years when the military influence became more
>> and more dominant.
>>
>> Whether or not the "Japanese military had already been defeated" doesn't
>> change the fact that the Japanese deaths would have been much greater if
>> both bombs had not been dropped.
>
> this is not a "fact " but your assertion..

It not merely my assertion, but that of others as well.

>
>> The civilians were being trained to use
>> bamboo spears to attack any allied troops who landed in Japan.
>
> civilians with bamboo spears would not have been much of a contest for
> the most powerful and technologically superior military machine ever
> assembled in the history of the world..now would it?

True, they probably would not be effective against our forces, but a poorly
armed force that can't (not permitted to) surrender usually has high
causalities.

>> You speak of "the ravings of defeated meglomaniacs who had LOST their
>> power." Unfortunately, those "defeated meglomaniacs" had not lost their
>> political power in Japan.
>
> they lost it the instant the army was defeated..
> To quote one of your neighbours..
> "political power grows out of the barrel of a gun"

The above statement shows that you know absolutely nothing about Japanese
history or Japanese culture. Although there had been peasant revolts for
over a thousand years, those revolts were always unsuccessful and ended
poorly for those who revolted. Considering that history, a successful revolt
against the military-controlled government simply was not an option.

>> The form of government in Japan was not a
>> democracy or even a republic, instead it was a continuation of a centuries
>> old tradition of using the emperor as a figurehead to govern.
>
> And once defeated the form of government became a matter for the
> victors..

That didn't happen until after the surrender.

>>
>> I recommend that you read the Meiji Constitution of 1889, which governed the
>> war years.
>
> after the Tokyo raids it stopped at article one..
>
> http://history.hanover.edu/texts/1889con.html
>
> Article 1. The Empire of Japan shall be reigned over and governed by a
> line of Emperors unbroken for ages eternal.
>
> Article 2. The Imperial Throne shall be succeeded to by Imperial male
> descendants, according to the provisions of the Imperial House Law.
>
> Article 3. The Emperor is sacred and inviolable.

While the Emperor was "sacred and inviolable," that Emperor was usually
controlled by his cabinet. Even the Meiji emperor really didn't have the
power that the constitution said he had.

If you knew anything about Japanese history, which you clearly don't, you
would have realized that even prior to the Tokugawa shogunate, and even
prior to the other shogunates, the real power did not rest in the Emperor.
During the Heian period ("Tale of Genji"), the emperor's advisers or
ex-emperors controlled the figurehead emperor. Occasionally an emperor would
endeavor to win back real power, but any success was fleeting.

The Tokyo raids did as much damage as the atomic bombs, but those raids did
not effectively reduce the political power of military nor did they change
the nature of that government, except to make it more determined. Even the
two atomic bombs were almost not enough.

>> Do you know anything about Japanese history?
>
> only where it intersects with European history..

That explains a lot about your misconceptions on this matter.

B2431

December 18th 03, 09:43 AM

>From: jake

>On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 13:39:19 +0900, Ernest Schaal
> wrote:
>
>>The Japanese military infrastructure and capacity to wage effective war may
>>have already been destroyed, and sensible people would have quit under those
>>circumstances, but according to at least one Japan Times story the military
>>was quite willing to sacrifice the lives of all Japanese civilians rather
>>than stand the shame of living with those civilians after losing the war.
>
>sure...
>I dont doubt it for a moment..throughout human history meglomaniacs
>have always been prepared to do so..
>
>but they were the ravings of defeated meglomaniacs who had LOST their
>power.
>
>>Most sources I know of talk about the resistance of the military to
>>surrender, and the uncommon action of the Emperor of resisting the military
>>on this matter.
>
>Indeed ..
>but the Japanese military had already been defeated..
>
>The nuclear bombs were dropped for other reasons than military..
>
>Nagasaki was chosen as a target almost randomly by the pilot
>because of weather conditions..on the strength of it having a
>Mitsubushi factory there..
>
>>

You don't read much hsitory do you? Nagasaki was on a list of targets given to
the aircrew. Nothing "almost random" there. There were several cities, 5 or 6
IIRC, that were selected for primary or alternate nuke targets.

As for the Japanese military being defeated by August 1945 tell that to the
bunch of fully functional combat units in China, Viet Nam, Korea etc. It wasn't
until the Soviets entered the Pacific war that the Japanese forces were facing
defeat in China. If Japan hadn't surrendered who knows how long the war in
China would have lasted. The Japanese had a lot of things to cover up and had
no intention of leaving easily.

As for the Home Islands every civilian was to be armed with everything from
sharpened bamboo sticks to real weapons. Let's assume 50% of the civilians
actually acted in the invasions the number of American and Japanese casualties
would have been unbelievable. How many children would have been slaughtered?
How many suicides? Thank God we will never know.

This made the atomic bombings a military necessity. Add the casualties in
China, Korea etc to those involved in the invasions and you get numbers too big
for most people to comprehend.

I will admit there were also political reasons for dropping the bombs, but they
HAD to be used primarilay for military reasons.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Cindy

December 18th 03, 05:29 PM

Kevin Brooks wrote:

> The Army remained undefeated until the Emperor finally pulled the plug, and
> even then there was a hardcore element that tried a last minute coup to
> prevent the surrender.

Wait, wait. There was something more to that. When the cabinet members
voted for the acceptance of the Postdam Declaration or not, the numbers
tied. Therefore, the final decision was made by the emperor.

At the time, the Japanese populace were under abnormal pressure. They
were brainwashed that defeat means death. Therefore, after the
surrender, a large number of both soldiers and civilians killed
themselves. In the street or anywhere, someone pulled the pin of the
hand grenade and shouted, "Ten'nou heika banzai!", a group of
passers-bys jumped on to it to be blown up together. A pair of school
girls pulled their knives and stabbed each other. If one didn't have any
means to kill oneself, one begged the closest military person to shoot
oneself. I just can't believe how crazy human can get.

> Who left a legacy of true democracy; what a shame, huh?

Sex industry was indeed a big hit.

Kevin Brooks

December 18th 03, 05:32 PM

"Cindy" > wrote in message
news:lulEb.144653$_M.714783@attbi_s54...
> Kevin Brooks wrote:
>
>
> > The Army remained undefeated until the Emperor finally pulled the plug,
and
> > even then there was a hardcore element that tried a last minute coup to
> > prevent the surrender.
>
> Wait, wait. There was something more to that. When the cabinet members
> voted for the acceptance of the Postdam Declaration or not, the numbers
> tied. Therefore, the final decision was made by the emperor.
>
> At the time, the Japanese populace were under abnormal pressure. They
> were brainwashed that defeat means death. Therefore, after the
> surrender, a large number of both soldiers and civilians killed
> themselves. In the street or anywhere, someone pulled the pin of the
> hand grenade and shouted, "Ten'nou heika banzai!", a group of
> passers-bys jumped on to it to be blown up together. A pair of school
> girls pulled their knives and stabbed each other. If one didn't have any
> means to kill oneself, one begged the closest military person to shoot
> oneself. I just can't believe how crazy human can get.
>
>
> > Who left a legacy of true democracy; what a shame, huh?
>
> Sex industry was indeed a big hit.

If you think the US was responsible for introducing an enlightened attitude
towards sex to the Japanese, you are sadly mistaken and need to review your
Japanese social history.

Brooks
>

Cindy

December 18th 03, 06:08 PM

Kevin Brooks wrote:

> If you think the US was responsible for introducing an enlightened attitude
> towards sex to the Japanese, you are sadly mistaken and need to review your
> Japanese social history.

I read John Dower's "Embracing Defeat". Hey, you got to be proud of
your country for this service. Sex gave the Japanese fantasy,
daydreaming, and probably a lot of babies after the defeat. Pan pan
girls were able to make money off the American GIs. Strip shows were
first introduced in Asakusa and were the major success. Western women
were considered to be a sex symbol. Sex was far better than committing
suicide, after all. You didn't know that, did you?

Kevin Brooks

December 18th 03, 06:41 PM

"Cindy" > wrote in message
news:42mEb.423962$ao4.1358666@attbi_s51...
> Kevin Brooks wrote:
>
>
> > If you think the US was responsible for introducing an enlightened
attitude
> > towards sex to the Japanese, you are sadly mistaken and need to review
your
> > Japanese social history.
>
> I read John Dower's "Embracing Defeat". Hey, you got to be proud of
> your country for this service. Sex gave the Japanese fantasy,
> daydreaming, and probably a lot of babies after the defeat. Pan pan
> girls were able to make money off the American GIs. Strip shows were
> first introduced in Asakusa and were the major success. Western women
> were considered to be a sex symbol. Sex was far better than committing
> suicide, after all. You didn't know that, did you?

I know that the Japanese have a long history of a rather liberal attitude
towards sex, extending back a couple of centuries before they ever met an
American, much less were conquered by us. You might care to examine some of
their artwork.

Brooks
>

Ernest Schaal

December 18th 03, 07:28 PM

in article 42mEb.423962$ao4.1358666@attbi_s51, Cindy at
wrote on 12/19/03 3:08 AM:

> Kevin Brooks wrote:
>
>
>> If you think the US was responsible for introducing an enlightened attitude
>> towards sex to the Japanese, you are sadly mistaken and need to review your
>> Japanese social history.
>
> I read John Dower's "Embracing Defeat". Hey, you got to be proud of
> your country for this service. Sex gave the Japanese fantasy,
> daydreaming, and probably a lot of babies after the defeat. Pan pan
> girls were able to make money off the American GIs. Strip shows were
> first introduced in Asakusa and were the major success. Western women
> were considered to be a sex symbol. Sex was far better than committing
> suicide, after all. You didn't know that, did you?

Cindy,

Are you really arguing that the Japanese were puritan about sex prior to the
American occupation and had no prostitution? If so, how do you explain the
legal prostitution that flourished brothels supervised by the Japanese
government since the 12th century? Or how do you explain the fact that in
the first week after Japan's surrender at the end the Home Ministry moved to
recruit prostitutes to serve the expected Occupation troops? Prostitution
wasn't made illegal until the Occupation authorities officially recommended
the abolition of licensed brothels. (Source for all the above, Japan An
Illustrated Encyclopedia)

Cindy

December 18th 03, 07:47 PM

Ernest Schaal wrote:

> Are you really arguing that the Japanese were puritan about sex prior to the
> American occupation and had no prostitution?

No, I am not. I am not complaining anything. However, those girls who
were taken to the US were fortunate. Those who were left behind in
Japan being pregnant had to go through the hell of discrimination. Just
an FYI.

> If so, how do you explain the
> legal prostitution that flourished brothels supervised by the Japanese
> government since the 12th century? Or how do you explain the fact that in
> the first week after Japan's surrender at the end the Home Ministry moved to
> recruit prostitutes to serve the expected Occupation troops? Prostitution
> wasn't made illegal until the Occupation authorities officially recommended
> the abolition of licensed brothels. (Source for all the above, Japan An
> Illustrated Encyclopedia)
>

Hawaii, Europe, and Africa, everywhere the US troops went, sex
industries were provided. (History Channel) However, how can you
complain? They paid for the service!

The Revolution Will Not Be Televised

December 18th 03, 09:10 PM

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 19:47:53 GMT, Cindy > wrote:

>Ernest Schaal wrote:
>
>> Are you really arguing that the Japanese were puritan about sex prior to the
>> American occupation and had no prostitution?
>
>No, I am not. I am not complaining anything. However, those girls who
>were taken to the US were fortunate. Those who were left behind in
>Japan being pregnant had to go through the hell of discrimination. Just
>an FYI.

Sounds like a Japanese cultural problem to me. Next.

>> If so, how do you explain the
>> legal prostitution that flourished brothels supervised by the Japanese
>> government since the 12th century? Or how do you explain the fact that in
>> the first week after Japan's surrender at the end the Home Ministry moved to
>> recruit prostitutes to serve the expected Occupation troops? Prostitution
>> wasn't made illegal until the Occupation authorities officially recommended
>> the abolition of licensed brothels. (Source for all the above, Japan An
>> Illustrated Encyclopedia)
>>
>
>Hawaii, Europe, and Africa, everywhere the US troops went, sex
>industries were provided. (History Channel)

Well who could possibly dispute such a source?

>However, how can you
>complain? They paid for the service!

Brothels and prostitution existed in Japan long before the GIs turned
up. Next.

Gavin Bailey

The Revolution Will Not Be Televised

December 18th 03, 09:14 PM

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 18:08:00 GMT, Cindy > wrote:

>> If you think the US was responsible for introducing an enlightened attitude
>> towards sex to the Japanese, you are sadly mistaken and need to review your
>> Japanese social history.
>
>I read John Dower's "Embracing Defeat". Hey, you got to be proud of
>your country for this service. Sex gave the Japanese fantasy,

The Japanese fantasised about sexlong before 1945.

>daydreaming,

Guess what? They daydreamed about sex long before 1945 as well.

>and probably a lot of babies after the defeat.

How many would that be then, in total and as a percentage of all
births in Japan at the time? I assume you have some factual grasp of
the subject to inform your opinion.

>Western women
>were considered to be a sex symbol. Sex was far better than committing
>suicide, after all. You didn't know that, did you?

How do you know? Have you tried both?

Gavin Bailey

George Shirley

December 18th 03, 09:48 PM

Kevin Brooks wrote:
> "Cindy" > wrote in message
> news:42mEb.423962$ao4.1358666@attbi_s51...
>
>>Kevin Brooks wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>If you think the US was responsible for introducing an enlightened
>
> attitude
>
>>>towards sex to the Japanese, you are sadly mistaken and need to review
>
> your
>
>>>Japanese social history.
>>
>>I read John Dower's "Embracing Defeat". Hey, you got to be proud of
>>your country for this service. Sex gave the Japanese fantasy,
>>daydreaming, and probably a lot of babies after the defeat. Pan pan
>>girls were able to make money off the American GIs. Strip shows were
>>first introduced in Asakusa and were the major success. Western women
>>were considered to be a sex symbol. Sex was far better than committing
>>suicide, after all. You didn't know that, did you?
>
>
> I know that the Japanese have a long history of a rather liberal attitude
> towards sex, extending back a couple of centuries before they ever met an
> American, much less were conquered by us. You might care to examine some of
> their artwork.
>
> Brooks
>
>
>
Speaking of Japanese erotic artwork. Anyone know the value of the following?

Japanese "pillow" scroll, watercolor on rice paper attached to a silk
scroll with an ivory (I think) rod. Very explicit artwork. BIL brought
it back as spoils of war from the Pacific in 1945. He has gone to join
his fallen comrades and I thought I could sell it for some extra money
for my sister but have no idea what to look for on eBay to establish a
baseline price.

Definitely off-topic but he was a Navy corpsman with the Marines from
1941-1945.

George

Kevin Brooks

December 18th 03, 09:53 PM

"jake" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 17:32:10 GMT, "Kevin Brooks"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Cindy" > wrote in message
> >news:lulEb.144653$_M.714783@attbi_s54...
> >> Kevin Brooks wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> > The Army remained undefeated until the Emperor finally pulled the
plug,
> >and
> >> > even then there was a hardcore element that tried a last minute coup
to
> >> > prevent the surrender.
> >>
> >> Wait, wait. There was something more to that. When the cabinet
members
> >> voted for the acceptance of the Postdam Declaration or not, the numbers
> >> tied. Therefore, the final decision was made by the emperor.
> >>
> >> At the time, the Japanese populace were under abnormal pressure. They
> >> were brainwashed that defeat means death. Therefore, after the
> >> surrender, a large number of both soldiers and civilians killed
> >> themselves. In the street or anywhere, someone pulled the pin of the
> >> hand grenade and shouted, "Ten'nou heika banzai!", a group of
> >> passers-bys jumped on to it to be blown up together. A pair of school
> >> girls pulled their knives and stabbed each other. If one didn't have
any
> >> means to kill oneself, one begged the closest military person to shoot
> >> oneself. I just can't believe how crazy human can get.
> >>
> >>
> >> > Who left a legacy of true democracy; what a shame, huh?
> >>
> >> Sex industry was indeed a big hit.
> >
> >If you think the US was responsible for introducing an enlightened
attitude
> >towards sex to the Japanese, you are sadly mistaken and need to review
your
> >Japanese social history.
>
> indeed..
>
> The US introduced a nightmare
>
>
> Rape Debate In Japan

What the heck do "rave parties" today have to do with the US in Japan in
1945? And BTW, the Japanese had pornography long before we dropped in--take
a gander at some of their more licentious artistic depictions from the
1800's and earlier.

Brooks

<Snip>

Ernest Schaal

December 18th 03, 10:25 PM

in article , jake at
wrote on 12/19/03 6:19 AM:

> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 17:32:10 GMT, "Kevin Brooks"
> > wrote:
>
>> If you think the US was responsible for introducing an enlightened attitude
>> towards sex to the Japanese, you are sadly mistaken and need to review your
>> Japanese social history.
>
> indeed..
>
> The US introduced a nightmare

My God, you are ignorant. Prostitution was open and legal since the 12th
century (it was licensed by the central government).

Ernest Schaal

December 18th 03, 10:28 PM

in article , jake at
wrote on 12/19/03 6:28 AM:

> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 18:08:00 GMT, Cindy > wrote:
>
>> Kevin Brooks wrote:
>>
>>
>>> If you think the US was responsible for introducing an enlightened attitude
>>> towards sex to the Japanese, you are sadly mistaken and need to review your
>>> Japanese social history.
>>
>> I read John Dower's "Embracing Defeat". Hey, you got to be proud of
>> your country for this service. Sex gave the Japanese fantasy,
>> daydreaming, and probably a lot of babies after the defeat. Pan pan
>> girls were able to make money off the American GIs. Strip shows were
>> first introduced in Asakusa and were the major success. Western women
>> were considered to be a sex symbol. Sex was far better than committing
>> suicide, after all. You didn't know that, did you?
>
> sre you seriously trying to suggest that the US introduced sex to
> Japan?
> they did not..they introduced commercial pornography and
> prostitution..
>
> Perhaps you dont know that many japanese
> women and girls commit suicide after being the victim of pornography
> incited rapes?
>
> Its not all Madame Butterfly stuff..

Why do you continue to post such drivel. You admit that you don't know much
about Japanese history, and it shows. Commercial pornography and
prostitution were centuries old. Haven't you ever heard of shunga, or are
you ignorant in art history as well?

Ernest Schaal

December 18th 03, 10:31 PM

in article , jake at
wrote on 12/19/03 7:17 AM:

> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 21:53:51 GMT, "Kevin Brooks"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>> "jake" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 17:32:10 GMT, "Kevin Brooks"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Cindy" > wrote in message
>>>> news:lulEb.144653$_M.714783@attbi_s54...
>>>>> Kevin Brooks wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> The Army remained undefeated until the Emperor finally pulled the
>> plug,
>>>> and
>>>>>> even then there was a hardcore element that tried a last minute coup
>> to
>>>>>> prevent the surrender.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wait, wait. There was something more to that. When the cabinet
>> members
>>>>> voted for the acceptance of the Postdam Declaration or not, the numbers
>>>>> tied. Therefore, the final decision was made by the emperor.
>>>>>
>>>>> At the time, the Japanese populace were under abnormal pressure. They
>>>>> were brainwashed that defeat means death. Therefore, after the
>>>>> surrender, a large number of both soldiers and civilians killed
>>>>> themselves. In the street or anywhere, someone pulled the pin of the
>>>>> hand grenade and shouted, "Ten'nou heika banzai!", a group of
>>>>> passers-bys jumped on to it to be blown up together. A pair of school
>>>>> girls pulled their knives and stabbed each other. If one didn't have
>> any
>>>>> means to kill oneself, one begged the closest military person to shoot
>>>>> oneself. I just can't believe how crazy human can get.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Who left a legacy of true democracy; what a shame, huh?
>>>>>
>>>>> Sex industry was indeed a big hit.
>>>>
>>>> If you think the US was responsible for introducing an enlightened
>> attitude
>>>> towards sex to the Japanese, you are sadly mistaken and need to review
>> your
>>>> Japanese social history.
>>>
>>> indeed..
>>>
>>> The US introduced a nightmare
>>>
>>>
>>> Rape Debate In Japan
>>
>> What the heck do "rave parties" today have to do with the US in Japan in
>> 1945?
>
> they were not "rave parties" at all..they tend to be asexuual
> they were a pretext for the activation of predatory attitudes to women
> that show little has in fact changed..
>
> "When 28-year-old Wada and five other organizers were arrested on rape
> charges in late June, public outrage underlined how attitudes about
> sex crimes are changing in a society where victims traditionally
> suffered in silence.
>
> But the affair also shows how much hasn't changed. It has triggered a
> boys-will-be-boys backlash that activists say only spotlights how
> ingrained sexist sentiment remains. "
>
> "During a Parliament debate, lawmaker Seiichi Ota, a 57-year-old
> former Cabinet minister, got a laugh when he quipped: "At least gang
> rapists are still vigorous. Isn't that at least a little closer to
> normal?"
>
> And BTW, the Japanese had pornography long before we dropped in--take
>> a gander at some of their more licentious artistic depictions from the
>> 1800's and earlier.
>
> rape is about power hatred and domination not sex..
> and pornography is not eroticism..
>
> The artistic depictions you speak of a a far cry from..
>
> "Rape-themed videos account for about a fifth of the porno offerings
> at chain rental stores, with titles like "Idol Rape Crime File"
> rankingamong the top five in weekly X-rated sales.
>
> Popular comic books and video games often depict rape fantasies where
> teenage girls, nurses and housewives willingly submit to rapes and
> other sex assaults from relatives, neighbors or even police. A
> 17-year-old high school student arrested in June for allegedly raping
> 31 women reportedly told police he was trying to re-enact scenes he
> saw in porno books and magazines.

True, many popular comic books and video games often depict rape fantasies,
but that had nothing to do with the American occupation. Such depictions
were common in shunga of the Edo era, and Japanese art of earlier periods.

Why do you continue to post such anti-American nonsense? Next you will be
accusing America for rape and pillage of the Crusades?

Cindy

December 18th 03, 10:38 PM

jake wrote:

> sre you seriously trying to suggest that the US introduced sex to
> Japan?
> they did not..they introduced commercial pornography and
> prostitution..
>
> Perhaps you dont know that many japanese
> women and girls commit suicide after being the victim of pornography
> incited rapes?
>
> Its not all Madame Butterfly stuff..
>

How do you explain the pan pan girls part?

Ernest Schaal

December 18th 03, 10:48 PM

in article , jake at
wrote on 12/19/03 7:44 AM:

> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 07:25:43 +0900, Ernest Schaal
> > wrote:
>
>> in article , jake at
>> wrote on 12/19/03 6:19 AM:
>>
>>> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 17:32:10 GMT, "Kevin Brooks"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> If you think the US was responsible for introducing an enlightened attitude
>>>> towards sex to the Japanese, you are sadly mistaken and need to review your
>>>> Japanese social history.
>>>
>>> indeed..
>>>
>>> The US introduced a nightmare
>>
>> My God, you are ignorant. Prostitution was open and legal since the 12th
>> century (it was licensed by the central government).
>
> and quite civilized unlike the American import..

There was no "American import." It was already there.

My god, you sure are persistent in your anti-american trash.

Ernest Schaal

December 18th 03, 11:00 PM

in article , jake at
wrote on 12/19/03 7:51 AM:

> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 07:28:16 +0900, Ernest Schaal
> > wrote:
>
>> You admit that you don't know much
>> about Japanese history,
>
> I admitted no such thing..
> I simply said except where it intersects with european history..
> It strikes me you just want to boast about what you feel you know

The vast majority of Japanese history does not intersect with European
history, and that which intersects with European history you seem to get
consistently wrong.

>> and it shows. Commercial pornography and
>> prostitution were centuries old. Haven't you ever heard of shunga, or are
>> you ignorant in art history as well?
>
> you actually are comparing erotic art to the flood of
> violent pornographic filth and chikld pornography America floods the
> world with?
>
> Hmmm

It is quite apparent that you hate America, but that is no excuse for your
drivel like that above. American pornography plays a small part in Japan, or
for that matter in Europe. On the contrary, if you had any sense of history,
you would know that hard core pornography in American came from Europe,
rather than the other way around.

Do you know anything?

Ernest Schaal

December 18th 03, 11:26 PM

in article , jake at
wrote on 12/19/03 8:15 AM:

> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 07:31:29 +0900, Ernest Schaal
> > wrote:
>
>> True, many popular comic books and video games often depict rape fantasies,
>
> In Japan perhaps..
> In other counties not only are they not popular but they are illegal..

So? What does that have to do with the American occupation? (By the way,
Japan has a lower crime rate than most Western countries, including the
United States.)

>> but that had nothing to do with the American occupation.
>
> It has everything to do with the cultural imperialism that followed
> that has distorted and deformed traditional values beyond all
> recognition..

Your statement is based upon the faulty assumption that the depiction of
rape fantasies, pornography, and prostitution in Japan did not predate the
American occupation. Since that assumption is so easily proven wrong, I can
only guess that you cling to that assumption because of your hatred for
American culture.

>> Such depictions
>> were common in shunga of the Edo era, and Japanese art of earlier periods.
>
> quit insulting Japanese artists by comparing them with such organized
> crime and vice..

Organized crime and vice in Japan also predate the American occupation by
centuries. The yakusa were quite strong during the Edo era. As for the
Japanese artists, most of the woodprint artists made shunga, including
Hokusai. Hiroshige was exceptional in that he did not make shunga.
>
>> Why do you continue to post such anti-American nonsense?
>
> PLENTY of americans feel the same way..
> I am not remotely anti-american..I am quite capapable
> of distiguishing between a people and their political masters..

Your feeble attempts to make America responsible for problems in Japan that
occurred long before America was discovered shows a strong anti-Americanism.

Ernest Schaal

December 18th 03, 11:57 PM

in article , jake at
wrote on 12/19/03 8:44 AM:

> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 07:48:12 +0900, Ernest Schaal
> > wrote:
>
>> There was no "American import." It was already there.
>
> sure rape videos and games were already there..
> Pan Pan girls were already there..
> an army of occupation was already there..
>
> In your alternate universe perhaps..

My god, you are ignorant, either that or extremely bigoted. Rape videos did
not exist during the American occupation, videos did not even exist them.
(You really should study history). As for videos, that technology came from
Japan, not the States, and there is no indication rape videos and games were
imported from America (besides your twisted imagination).

As for the "Pan Pan girls," they are merely a continuation of a
centuries-old tradition of prostitution.

>
>> My god, you sure are persistent in your anti-american trash.
>
> disagreeing with you does not make people "anti-american" Ernest

No, but it is anti-Americanism and bigotry to deliberately ignore hundreds
of years of history and charge that America is guilty for for problems that
existed in Japan before America was even founded.

Ernest Schaal

December 18th 03, 11:59 PM

in article , jake at
wrote on 12/19/03 8:48 AM:

> I certainly know a self-opinionated arrogant bigot...who confuses
> his own beliefs and values with democratic American values when I see
> one

Oh, you are looking in the mirror?

Jarg

December 19th 03, 12:09 AM

There does seem to be a determination on your part to blame the United
States for problems that other posters have done a good job of demonstrating
are at worst debatably a part of historical Japanese culture.

And BTW, has anyone mentioned the fact that imperial Japan imported women
from occupied countries to serve as unwilling prostitutes? That alone seems
to indicate that some Japanese men weren't that concerned about forcing sex
on women long before there was an American presence.

Jarg

"jake" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 07:48:12 +0900, Ernest Schaal
> > wrote:
>
> >in article , jake at
> wrote on 12/19/03 7:44 AM:
> >
> >> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 07:25:43 +0900, Ernest Schaal
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >>> in article , jake at
> >>> wrote on 12/19/03 6:19 AM:
> >>>
> >>>> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 17:32:10 GMT, "Kevin Brooks"
> >>>> > wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> If you think the US was responsible for introducing an enlightened
attitude
> >>>>> towards sex to the Japanese, you are sadly mistaken and need to
review your
> >>>>> Japanese social history.
> >>>>
> >>>> indeed..
> >>>>
> >>>> The US introduced a nightmare
> >>>
> >>> My God, you are ignorant. Prostitution was open and legal since the
12th
> >>> century (it was licensed by the central government).
> >>
> >> and quite civilized unlike the American import..
> >
> >There was no "American import." It was already there.
>
> sure rape videos and games were already there..
> Pan Pan girls were already there..
> an army of occupation was already there..
>
> In your alternate universe perhaps..
>
>
> >My god, you sure are persistent in your anti-american trash.
>
> disagreeing with you does not make people "anti-american" Ernest
>
> --
> "Many people would sooner die than think;
> In fact, they do so."
> (Bertrand Russell)

Ernest Schaal

December 19th 03, 12:31 AM

Jake,

It is true that the Japanese consider America as a source of crime, but then
it sees China as a much bigger source of crime. In fact, it sees all
foreigners as a source of crime (although the rate of gaijin crime in Japan
is less per capita than the corresponding rate of Japanese national crime).

Is there crime in Japan? Of course there is, but then there is crime in
every country. The rate of crime is increasing, but it has a long way to go
before it reaches Western standards.

My big problem with your comments is not that there is crime in the States
or in Japan, but instead it is your string of bigoted garbage trying to link
prostitution, pornography, rape, and all sorts of evil to the American
occupation. Those problems existed in Japan long before the American
continent was even discovered.

As for your charge of American entertainment inciting violence in Japan,
that completely ignores the nature of Japanese entertainment. Do you know
ANYTHING about Japan, or Japanese society, or Japanese cinema, or Japanese
television?

While many of the American blockbusters do come to Japan, there is also a
strong history of Japanese cinema, and there is a lot of European films in
the theaters and on television. (One thing I quickly learned here was to
check the language of western films that seem interesting, otherwise I would
have to rely solely on Japanese subtitles.) Violence in Japanese cinema is a
long tradition, with masterpieces like Eki, and Fireworks.

I don't know why you hate America so, but your hate is so obvious.
Otherwise, why would you pretend that America is responsible for
prostitution, pornography, rape, etc. in Japan?

America is responsible for our share of harm in the world (no country is
without its share of guilt), but America is not responsible for everything
that goes bad in the world, no matter how much you hate America.

Ernest Schaal

December 19th 03, 12:35 AM

in article , jake at
wrote on 12/19/03 9:10 AM:

> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 08:26:47 +0900, Ernest Schaal
> > wrote:
>
>>> It has everything to do with the cultural imperialism that followed
>>> that has distorted and deformed traditional values beyond all
>>> recognition..
>>
>> Your statement is based upon the faulty assumption that the depiction of
>> rape fantasies, pornography, and prostitution in Japan did not predate the
>> American occupation.
>
> a straw man argument..and certainly not mine
>
> mass production of rape and torture pornography to be
> popular reading amonst teenagers was non-existent..

Sorry Jake, but you really don't know your history. What do you think shunga
was? It was mass-produced erotic art that often had rape as a central theme.
As to the current mass production, that is usually of Japanese origin.

Instead of being responsible for this production, the American occupation
was very puritanical compared to Japanese standards.

>> Since that assumption is so easily proven wrong, I can
>> only guess that you cling to that assumption because of your hatred for
>> American culture.
>
> you guess wrong..

Then why do you continue to blame America for things it could not be
responsible for?

Ernest Schaal

December 19th 03, 12:44 AM

in article , jake at
wrote on 12/19/03 9:34 AM:

> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 00:09:19 GMT, "Jarg" >
> wrote:
>
>> There does seem to be a determination on your part to blame the United
>> States for problems that other posters have done a good job of demonstrating
>> are at worst debatably a part of historical Japanese culture.
>
> no..IMHO it is a gruesome synthesis..
>
> the old imperial values were shattered for ever after the defeat and
> occupation..To suggest otherwise is reactionary dreaming..

The more you write, the more I realize that you know absolutely nothing
about Japanese culture or Japanese society. While the old imperial
government was replaced with a more democratic one, much about Japan
continued to remain the same. True, there were changes, but not the type
that you seem so determined to believe.

Sexually, Japan as become less open than before the war. Prior to the war,
it was expected that a husband would have mistresses, or at least play
around. Prior to the war, girls were sold into sexual slavery by their
parents. Prior to the war, prostitution was legal.

I don't expect you to learn anything about Japan, because to do so would be
fatal to your cherished dream that America is guilty for everything wrong in
Japan.

>> And BTW, has anyone mentioned the fact that imperial Japan imported women
>> from occupied countries to serve as unwilling prostitutes? That alone seems
>> to indicate that some Japanese men weren't that concerned about forcing sex
>> on women long before there was an American presence.
>
> of course not..
> the outcry about the gang rapists being charged and the disgraceful
> comments of politicians about it in the parliamentary debate
> that clearly..

The disgraceful comments of politicians reflect a pre-war mentality, and
cannot be blamed on America.

> rape comics for teens as popular culture did not predate the
> Americanization however..

What do you think shunga was?

I realize that you hate America with a passion, but your continuing in
trying to blame America for rape comics is really absurd.

Ernest Schaal

December 19th 03, 02:19 AM

in article , jake at
wrote on 12/19/03 10:41 AM:

> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 09:44:58 +0900, Ernest Schaal
> > wrote:
>
>> The more you write, the more I realize that you know absolutely nothing
>> about Japanese culture or Japanese society. While the old imperial
>> government was replaced with a more democratic one, much about Japan
>> continued to remain the same. True, there were changes, but not the type
>> that you seem so determined to believe.
>>
>> Sexually, Japan as become less open than before the war.
>
> yeah right..
>
> 1,000 illegal pornographic tapes are produced in Japan each month - 35
> new titles a day. (CATW Fact Book, citing Mitsuhiro Shimamura and
> Joseph Coleman, "Pornography Easy to Find in Japan", AP, August 1997)
>
> * One 'sex zone' in Tokyo, only 0.34 sq. km., has 3,500 sex
> facilities: strip theatres, peep shows, 'soaplands,' 'lover's banks,'
> porno shops, telephone clubs, karaoke bars, clubs, etc. (CATW-Asia
> Pacific, Trafficking in Women and Prostitution in the Asia Pacific,
> 1996)
>
> *
> In 1998, Japan was the world's biggest producer of child pornography
> and the Parliament had recently refused to pass a law banning the
> production of child pornography, citing "business reasons." (CATW Fact
> Book, citing Poona Antaseeda, "Expert urges global law to end child
> pornography on the Internet", Bangkok Post, 3 June 1998, citing ECPAT)
>
> *
>
> NATIONAL STATISTICS
>
> * According to National Police Agency statistics, 40% of the over
> 3,000 pornographic Internet sites based in Japan contained images of
> minors. In 1998, INTERPOL estimated that 80% of Internet sites with
> child pornography originate in Japan. (US Dept of State, Country
> Reports on Human Rights Practices - 1999, 25 February 2000)
>
> * One third of all reported cases of prostitution are teenagers. (CATW
> Fact Book, citing "Tokyo cracks down on teenage prostitution 'clubs'",
> Reuters, 13 August 1997, citing 1996 National Police Agency Survey)
>
> ADULT STATISTICS
>
> * Every year, over 100,000 women, mostly Filipinos and Thais, are
> sexually exploited in the sex industry all over Japan. (Committee for
> a Safe Society, Matsui Yayori, Eliminating Trafficking in Asian Women,
> www.alternatives.com)
>
> * There are more than 150,000 foreign women in prostitution in Japan,
> more than a half are Filipinos and 40% are Thai. (CATW-Asia Pacific,
> Newsletter Volume 1.2, Winter 1998)
>
>
>
> * 150,000 Filipina women have been trafficked into prostitution in
> Japan. (CATW Fact Book, citing "Open sale of little girls at Tanbazar
> brothel", Daily Star, 2 July 1998, citing BNWLA)
>
> * Japan is a destination for trafficking in women from Philippines and
> Thailand for purposes of sexual exploitation. Reliable statistics on
> the number and origin of women trafficked to the country is
> unavailable, but according to the Ministry of Justice 2.5 % of the
> 15,823 women deported in 1997 were prostitutes. (US Dept of State,
> Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 1999, 25 February 2000)

And they were any better prior to the occupation? No they weren't. I gather
you haven't noticed the threads about comfort women and the attempts of them
to get damages for their plight during the war.

>> Prior to the war, it was expected that a husband would have mistresses, or at
>> least play around.
>
> and still is..

Boy, you don't know Japanese society at all. Most young wives would not
tolerate that type of behavior. There is an old Japanese saying: two things
got stronger after the war, nylon stockings and Japanese women.

>
>> Prior to the war, girls were sold into sexual slavery by their
>> parents.
>
> and still are but now they are imported from other countries

True, there is a strong sex market in Japan, and many are imported, but
unlike the war the entries in that market are usually voluntary. You have
not shown that the problem increased after the war and you have not shown
any causal effect between the American occupation and the creation of that
sex market.

Instead, all you have done is show that Japanese have sexual practices of
which you disapprove.

>> Prior to the war, prostitution was legal.
>
> as it should be if only for regulation and public health reasons..

You can't have it both ways. You can't blame say that America is responsible
for prostitution in Japan and then admit that it existed prior to the
occupation.

>> I don't expect you to learn anything about Japan, because to do so would be
>> fatal to your cherished dream that America is guilty for everything wrong in
>> Japan.
>
> thats your fantasy..
> perhaps you confuse me with someone else..or more likely you say that
> to anyone who disagrees with you..

Let me see, so far you have stated that prostitution, sex crimes, and
pornography were all America's fault.

>> The disgraceful comments of politicians reflect a pre-war mentality, and
>> cannot be blamed on America.
>
> sigh ..
> that was exactly my point...
> a synthesis of that mentality and American knowhow..

No, the know-how was there before American arrived. Or are you so racist as
to believe that Asians are incapable of creative effort in that direction?
>>> rape comics for teens as popular culture did not predate the
>>> Americanization however..
>>
>> What do you think shunga was?
>
> erotic art..
>
> Shunga are erotic Japanese prints. Shunga literally means springtime
> pictures.
>
> The Tradition of Japanese Shunga Prints
> Shunga prints were produced and sold either as single sheets or - more
> frequently - in book form, called enpon.
>
> The images on Japanese shunga prints are mostly sexually explicit.
> Westerners would categorize most of the scenes as pornographic.
> Sometimes the scenes depicted are covered with a blanket, and only two
> lovers are to be recognized. In other words, some Japanese shunga
> prints can be shown to minors.
>
> Japanese shunga prints and books were bought for several reasons. One
> was certainly for the fun of viewing sexually stimulating erotic
> images. But they served also for the sexual education of young men and
> women. It was even a tradition that the bride of a daimyo - a
> high-standing feudal lord - brought a collection of shunga prints
> together with their wedding furniture.
>
> Which Ukiyo-e Artists Made Shunga Prints?
> Japanese erotic art was made by all ukiyo-e artists. It was more
> profitable than "normal" art. Few shunga prints however bear
> signatures or seals. At times, they were subject to an official
> censorship. In practice, restrictions in producing and selling erotic
> shunga art, were never very strict. But most artists may have
> considered it wise to publish their works anonymously.

Sorry to break your bubble, but Japanese shunga often portrayed rape,
bondage, and bestiality. Most of the shunga did not show scenes covered
"with a blanket." On the contrary, one common feature of much of shunga is
an exaggeration in the size of the male sexual organ. Bottom line: present
manga traces its roots to shunga, not American comics (which were tame in
comparison).

>> I realize that you hate America with a passion,
>
> just because you keep repeating a slander does not make
> it true..

If you don't hate America, then why are you so determined to portray America
to be responsible for things that they are not? You keep saying how bad
Japan is and how it is all the fault of that bad old America, but you
completely fail to show that American culture is at fault, even to the
smallest degree.

Steve Hix

December 19th 03, 05:29 AM

In article <60qEb.585308$HS4.4339852@attbi_s01>,
Cindy > wrote:

> jake wrote:
>
> > sre you seriously trying to suggest that the US introduced sex to
> > Japan?
> > they did not..they introduced commercial pornography and
> > prostitution..
> >
> > Perhaps you dont know that many japanese
> > women and girls commit suicide after being the victim of pornography
> > incited rapes?
> >
> > Its not all Madame Butterfly stuff..
>
> How do you explain the pan pan girls part?

Economic opportunity.

Steve Hix

December 19th 03, 05:32 AM

In article >,
jake > wrote:

> >>> My God, you are ignorant. Prostitution was open and legal since the 12th
> >>> century (it was licensed by the central government).
> >>
> >> and quite civilized unlike the American import..
> >
> >There was no "American import." It was already there.
>
> sure rape videos and games were already there..

No, but they didn't appear until after the U.S. occupation.

> Pan Pan girls were already there..
> an army of occupation was already there..

Long gone before the videos first showed up.

> In your alternate universe perhaps..

Remind us, one more time, what the color of the sky is on your world...

B2431

December 19th 03, 06:28 AM

>rom: (MIB529)
>Date: 12/18/2003 4:58 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"Bjørnar" > wrote in message
>...
>> > Why not simply include the wanted information in the exhibit ? It
>> > seams like a small request to me.
>> > It is after all true that 100+ thousand humans died because of this
>> > plane/bomb.
>> >
>> > Is history now politically uncorrect in the US ?
>> >
>> > ?
>> > G
>>
>> Civilian casualities is always a touchy subject for the winning
>> team. Just look at Irak and Afghanistan, somewhere between 10-20.000
>> civilians have died as a consequense of the US and allied bombings,
>> but it's hardly mentioned.
>>
>> As a reminder, 3,000 died in the WTC attack.
>
>Not only that, but that doesn't include the number of babies who will
>die from 'depleted' uranium-related birth defects. Or all the people
>dying of cholera and other diseases because water-treatment facilities
>were considered legitimate military targets.
>
>What's bad is, the hijackers were mostly from Saudi Arabia; none were
>from Iraq, and IIRC, they were all from 'moderate' Muslim countries.
>
Saudi Arabia is by no stretch of the immagination "moderate."

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

Cindy

December 20th 03, 01:17 AM

Ernest Schaal wrote:

> If you don't hate America, then why are you so determined to portray America
> to be responsible for things that they are not?

In the USA, it is a norm that you blame on someone else for your own
mistake, isn't it? Why are you so upset? You should be used to it by
now. American people are well aware of that themselves. If you get fat,
you sue the fast food restaurant. I saw one woman who had a fall and
had her ankle sprained over a water hose processing paperwork for
lawsuit to the apartment management. In the USA, nothing is your fault
but others'.

Probably it is because of the relaxed culture with too much freedom of
speech or whatever, the ethics are deteriorating. People don't do what
they have promised to do or just what they say that they will do.
That'll make them liars, but breaking promise is a common occurrence
sadly.

Ernest Schaal

December 20th 03, 01:33 AM

in article 0rNEb.605842$Fm2.549583@attbi_s04, Cindy at
wrote on 12/20/03 10:17 AM:

> Ernest Schaal wrote:
>
>> If you don't hate America, then why are you so determined to portray America
>> to be responsible for things that they are not?
>
> In the USA, it is a norm that you blame on someone else for your own
> mistake, isn't it? Why are you so upset? You should be used to it by
> now. American people are well aware of that themselves. If you get fat,
> you sue the fast food restaurant. I saw one woman who had a fall and
> had her ankle sprained over a water hose processing paperwork for
> lawsuit to the apartment management. In the USA, nothing is your fault
> but others'.
>
> Probably it is because of the relaxed culture with too much freedom of
> speech or whatever, the ethics are deteriorating. People don't do what
> they have promised to do or just what they say that they will do.
> That'll make them liars, but breaking promise is a common occurrence
> sadly.

Cindy,

Please reread your message and consider if you would tolerate someone making
the same type of overgeneralization about all Japanese that you make about
Americans. For instance, a common problem in Japan is men sexually harassing
women on trains, and the situation is so bad that some subways have special
cars that are women only. Knowing that, would you tolerate a depiction of
all Japanese as hentai, even though a sizeable number are?

Steve Hix

December 20th 03, 04:03 AM

In article >,
wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 21:32:12 -0800, Steve Hix
> > wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> > jake > wrote:
> >
> >> >>> My God, you are ignorant. Prostitution was open and legal since the
> >> >>> 12th
> >> >>> century (it was licensed by the central government).
> >> >>
> >> >> and quite civilized unlike the American import..
> >> >
> >> >There was no "American import." It was already there.
> >>
> >> sure rape videos and games were already there..
> >
> >No, but they didn't appear until after the U.S. occupation.
> >
> >> Pan Pan girls were already there..
> >> an army of occupation was already there..
> >
> >Long gone before the videos first showed up.
> >
> >> In your alternate universe perhaps..
> >
> >Remind us, one more time, what the color of the sky is on your world...
>
> Look... dumbass...

Craig, you might make some note that you're arguing against jake, not me.

I'm *not* the one arguing for corruption of Japanese morals by American
occupation troops, that was jake.

> videos didn't even EXIST until after the
> occupation - and since the Japanese invented the technology for both
> videos and electronic games, it would be FAR more logical to argue
> that *they* corrupted *us* with the stuff. They're sure as hell more
> popular there than they are here.
> But a logical and rational mind would not be trying to pin the
> "blame" for pornograpy, rape, prostitution or gratuitous recreational
> violence on EITHER culture, since even the most cursory glance at
> world history makes it abundantly clear that every culture on the
> planet has been plagued with those vices - and others - since the dawn
> of recorded history.
> Please... give it a rest.

Cindy

December 20th 03, 04:51 PM

jake wrote:

> http://www.lewrockwell.com/elkins/elkins15.html
>
> Forget Pearl Harbor
> by Jeff Elkins

<snip>

> Not only does empire drain our treasury, it drains our moral character
> as well. Okinawa provides the perfect example; who likes to read about
> an American Marine raping a 12 year old girl? And then to read that an
> American general suggested that the Japanese were â€˜wimpsâ€™ and that the
> Marine in question should have sought out a prostitute. Actions such
> as these have the effect of coarsening us as a people and surely canâ€™t
> be good for military morale.

Oh, yeah, it is always happening in Okinawa or any military bases in
Japan. I am so sick and tired of this type of news. It was even
dramatized in the TV show "JAG".

If you are in Japan and get involved in, say, a car accident with a US
service man, it's your lucky day; nothing will be done for the damage.
Military men are very responsible for their duty, but they don't care
about the local people and negative effects of their irresponsible
behaviors. They don't care because they don't stay there for a long
time. American service men's negative impressions build up and build up
among the locals; old guys leave and new guys arrive; new guys goof
around off base like old guys; they care nothing but themselves -- so it
seems.

Cindy

December 20th 03, 05:22 PM

jake wrote:

> On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 16:51:25 GMT, Cindy > wrote:
>
>
>>jake wrote:
>>
>>
>>>http://www.lewrockwell.com/elkins/elkins15.html
>>>
>>>Forget Pearl Harbor
>>>by Jeff Elkins
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>Not only does empire drain our treasury, it drains our moral character
>>>as well. Okinawa provides the perfect example; who likes to read about
>>>an American Marine raping a 12 year old girl? And then to read that an
>>>American general suggested that the Japanese were â€˜wimpsâ€™ and that the
>>>Marine in question should have sought out a prostitute. Actions such
>>>as these have the effect of coarsening us as a people and surely canâ€™t
>>>be good for military morale.
>>
>>Oh, yeah, it is always happening in Okinawa or any military bases in
>>Japan. I am so sick and tired of this type of news. It was even
>>dramatized in the TV show "JAG".
>>
>>If you are in Japan and get involved in, say, a car accident with a US
>>service man, it's your lucky day; nothing will be done for the damage.
>>Military men are very responsible for their duty, but they don't care
>>about the local people and negative effects of their irresponsible
>>behaviors. They don't care because they don't stay there for a long
>>time. American service men's negative impressions build up and build up
>>among the locals; old guys leave and new guys arrive; new guys goof
>>around off base like old guys; they care nothing but themselves -- so it
>>seems.
>
>
> outrageous..

Oh, don't bother, we are used to it.

> http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=2&id=279932
>
> Tuesday, November 25, 2003 at 02:58 JST
> TOKYO â€” The United States asked Japan during talks in July and August
> to allow U.S. officials to be present in all interrogations of U.S.
> military personnel suspected of committing crimes in Japan, including
> those arrested at the crime scene, Japanese and U.S. government
> sources said Monday.
>
> The talks on revising the criminal procedures for U.S. military
> personnel in Japan under the Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA)
> collapsed in August without producing an agreement
>
>
> SOFA governs the operations and management of U.S. forces in Japan. It
> does not require the U.S. to hand over U.S. military suspects alleged
> to have committed crimes until Japanese prosecutors indict them.
>
> However, the rape of a 12-year-old Japanese girl by three U.S.
> servicemen in 1995 prompted the U.S. to agree to give "sympathetic
> consideration" to handovers of soldiers suspected of committing
> serious crimes of rape and murder. (Kyodo News)

Do they think that pan pan girls are still on duty and can get away with it?

Cindy

December 20th 03, 11:53 PM

jake wrote:

> you should not have to get used to it.
> Their families would be deeply ashamed
> if they knew what they were doing..

I hope their families are that level-headed, Jake. However, their
families could be total rednecks.

> more and more people seem to be getting the courage to
> protest about it..

Yeah, generally, when people do something, they think about the after
math so that they tend to be very very cautious doing anything. It is
not uncommon to fear revenge. Maybe it's a cultural thing.

>
> Lei Xuizang
>
> America has done good in the past, like fighting Hitlers Nazi Germany

Indeed.

> but...
>
> America has also done bad, like testing Atomic bombs on 250,000
> American vets,
> Bombing innocent villages in Vietnam
> Killing American people and funding dictatorships in Guatemala...
>
> Every country has a right to protect themselves,
> and over seas bases should be no problem.
>
> But
> The Army men and young jocks should not be allowed to rob taxis,
> destroy and brun property, rape women, and kill locals.

Exactly. Just being an American doesn't mean his freedom is accepted in
foreign countries.

> If the USA wants to keep this base it should clamp down on these punks
> in the Navy and start sending these scum to Jail.

American morals are corrupt, Jake. They can't even be responsible for
themselves. Christianity does no good any more. If they get a speeding
ticket, it's not their fault but the police officer's. Education system
failed. When they eat, they don't seem to know when to stop eating and
make themselves huge. Usually, fat people are drinking Diet Coke, so I
stay away from any diet drinks. If you can not take care of themselves,
how can they take care of other nations? Good question, huh? Kids fire
a gun in school. Teenage pregnancies. Drugs. Many parents are divorced
and are busy finding another spouse. Lawsuit, lawsuit, lawsuit. If you
need a lot of money, sue someone (who is rich). Abuse of democracy,
abuse of freedom, abuse of anything you can think of. If anything
happens, it's not your fault. It is always someone else's fault.
Therefore, you should stay away from Americans because you never know
when you will have to go to court.

America has no future, Jake. I feel sorry for young Americans.

MLenoch

December 21st 03, 12:07 AM

>American morals are corrupt, Jake. They can't even be responsible for
>themselves. Christianity does no good any more. If they get a speeding
>ticket, it's not their fault but the police officer's. Education system
>failed. When they eat, they don't seem to know when to stop eating and
>make themselves huge. Usually, fat people are drinking Diet Coke, so I
>stay away from any diet drinks. If you can not take care of themselves,
>how can they take care of other nations? Good question, huh? Kids fire
>a gun in school. Teenage pregnancies. Drugs. Many parents are divorced
>and are busy finding another spouse. Lawsuit, lawsuit, lawsuit. If you
>need a lot of money, sue someone (who is rich). Abuse of democracy,
>abuse of freedom, abuse of anything you can think of. If anything
>happens, it's not your fault. It is always someone else's fault.
>Therefore, you should stay away from Americans because you never know
>when you will have to go to court.
>
>America has no future, Jake. I feel sorry for young Americans.
>

These sound like typical opinions from watching too much TV. I would agree
based on everything that is portrayed on TV. I try to avoid too much TV for my
family. We, nor do our neighbors, have the problems listed above. We could and
we might, we are not infalible. But TV (and media) distorts the perception of
a common American citizen.

My 2 cents......
VL

[email protected]

December 21st 03, 12:14 AM

Cindy > wrote:

>
>American morals are corrupt, Jake. They can't even be responsible for
>themselves. Christianity does no good any more. If they get a speeding
>ticket, it's not their fault but the police officer's. Education system
>failed. When they eat, they don't seem to know when to stop eating and
>make themselves huge. Usually, fat people are drinking Diet Coke, so I
>stay away from any diet drinks. If you can not take care of themselves,
>how can they take care of other nations? Good question, huh? Kids fire
>a gun in school. Teenage pregnancies. Drugs. Many parents are divorced
>and are busy finding another spouse. Lawsuit, lawsuit, lawsuit. If you
>need a lot of money, sue someone (who is rich). Abuse of democracy,
>abuse of freedom, abuse of anything you can think of. If anything
>happens, it's not your fault. It is always someone else's fault.
>Therefore, you should stay away from Americans because you never know
>when you will have to go to court.
>
>America has no future, Jake. I feel sorry for young Americans.
>
>
>
Y'know Cindy...there's something to be said for people who
cannot see any good in other people too...like, it's always other
people who are terrible people, always suing others, on drugs,
overweight, abusers, speeders, gangsters etc etc. Are you really
the only 'good person' in the world?...seems so when I read your
post...
--

-Gord.

Big'un

December 21st 03, 12:30 AM

"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
> Cindy > wrote:
>
> >
> >American morals are corrupt, Jake. They can't even be responsible for
> >themselves. Christianity does no good any more. If they get a speeding
> >ticket, it's not their fault but the police officer's. Education system
> >failed. When they eat, they don't seem to know when to stop eating and
> >make themselves huge. Usually, fat people are drinking Diet Coke, so I
> >stay away from any diet drinks. If you can not take care of themselves,
> >how can they take care of other nations? Good question, huh? Kids fire
> >a gun in school. Teenage pregnancies. Drugs. Many parents are divorced
> >and are busy finding another spouse. Lawsuit, lawsuit, lawsuit. If you
> >need a lot of money, sue someone (who is rich). Abuse of democracy,
> >abuse of freedom, abuse of anything you can think of. If anything
> >happens, it's not your fault. It is always someone else's fault.
> >Therefore, you should stay away from Americans because you never know
> >when you will have to go to court.
> >
> >America has no future, Jake. I feel sorry for young Americans.
> >
> >
> >
> Y'know Cindy...there's something to be said for people who
> cannot see any good in other people too...like, it's always other
> people who are terrible people, always suing others, on drugs,
> overweight, abusers, speeders, gangsters etc etc. Are you really
> the only 'good person' in the world?...seems so when I read your
> post...
> --
>
> -Gord.

Damn fine assessment of the two dip****s that posted just before you,
Gordon!

Ernest Schaal

December 21st 03, 03:54 AM

in article 3i5Fb.6523$VB2.10387@attbi_s51, Cindy at wrote
on 12/21/03 8:53 AM:

> American morals are corrupt, Jake. They can't even be responsible for
> themselves. Christianity does no good any more. If they get a speeding
> ticket, it's not their fault but the police officer's. Education system
> failed. When they eat, they don't seem to know when to stop eating and
> make themselves huge. Usually, fat people are drinking Diet Coke, so I
> stay away from any diet drinks. If you can not take care of themselves,
> how can they take care of other nations? Good question, huh? Kids fire
> a gun in school. Teenage pregnancies. Drugs. Many parents are divorced
> and are busy finding another spouse. Lawsuit, lawsuit, lawsuit. If you
> need a lot of money, sue someone (who is rich). Abuse of democracy,
> abuse of freedom, abuse of anything you can think of. If anything
> happens, it's not your fault. It is always someone else's fault.
> Therefore, you should stay away from Americans because you never know
> when you will have to go to court.
>
> America has no future, Jake. I feel sorry for young Americans.

I find it amazing that you can make such stereotypes about ALL Americans,
when you condemn stereotypes about Japanese. Let us look at one of the
stereotypes about Japanese which are at least as valid as the ones you are
making about Americans. I is a lot more common for Japanese wives to earn
extra income by prostitution than it is in the States. In addition, it is
common for middle school girls to earn extra income by not only prostitution
but also by blackmailing their clients; that trend really hasn't caught on
in the States. Applying the Cindy theory of stereotypes, it should be
permissible to call you a whore because you apparently believe that
overgeneralization is good. Are you a whore? Do you feel offended if someone
made the gross generalizations about you that you are so eager to make about
others?

We won't mention the phenomena of environmental pollution in Japan, or
violent attacks on homeless by school kids, or the trade in used panties of
school girls, or "parasite singles," or blatant racism against foreigners,
etc. Every country has its own problems, but most people are mature enough
not to make the broad generalizations that you make. Unfortunately, maturity
is not one of your virtues.

You have no future, Cindy. I feel sorry for you.

Ernest Schaal

December 21st 03, 04:14 AM

in article , Ernest Schaal at
wrote on 12/21/03 12:54 PM:

> in article 3i5Fb.6523$VB2.10387@attbi_s51, Cindy at wrote
> on 12/21/03 8:53 AM:
>
>> American morals are corrupt, Jake. They can't even be responsible for
>> themselves. Christianity does no good any more. If they get a speeding
>> ticket, it's not their fault but the police officer's. Education system
>> failed. When they eat, they don't seem to know when to stop eating and
>> make themselves huge. Usually, fat people are drinking Diet Coke, so I
>> stay away from any diet drinks. If you can not take care of themselves,
>> how can they take care of other nations? Good question, huh? Kids fire
>> a gun in school. Teenage pregnancies. Drugs. Many parents are divorced
>> and are busy finding another spouse. Lawsuit, lawsuit, lawsuit. If you
>> need a lot of money, sue someone (who is rich). Abuse of democracy,
>> abuse of freedom, abuse of anything you can think of. If anything
>> happens, it's not your fault. It is always someone else's fault.
>> Therefore, you should stay away from Americans because you never know
>> when you will have to go to court.
>>
>> America has no future, Jake. I feel sorry for young Americans.
>
> I find it amazing that you can make such stereotypes about ALL Americans,
> when you condemn stereotypes about Japanese. Let us look at one of the
> stereotypes about Japanese which are at least as valid as the ones you are
> making about Americans. I is a lot more common for Japanese wives to earn
> extra income by prostitution than it is in the States. In addition, it is
> common for middle school girls to earn extra income by not only prostitution
> but also by blackmailing their clients; that trend really hasn't caught on
> in the States. Applying the Cindy theory of stereotypes, it should be
> permissible to call you a whore because you apparently believe that
> overgeneralization is good. Are you a whore? Do you feel offended if someone
> made the gross generalizations about you that you are so eager to make about
> others?
>
> We won't mention the phenomena of environmental pollution in Japan, or
> violent attacks on homeless by school kids, or the trade in used panties of
> school girls, or "parasite singles," or blatant racism against foreigners,
> etc. Every country has its own problems, but most people are mature enough
> not to make the broad generalizations that you make. Unfortunately, maturity
> is not one of your virtues.
>
> You have no future, Cindy. I feel sorry for you.

Cindy,

It was only after I sent the above message that I realize that the question
about your feeling offended in being called a whore, using the Cindy theory
of stereotypes, was not a good analogy because you might not have any
grounds to be offended if, in fact, you do use prostitution as an additional
source of income, since that possibility is quite possible.

If you are in fact a prostitute, do you feel offended if someone make the
gross generalization about you, using the Cindy theory of
overgeneralization, and accused you of beating the homeless to death?

If you are in fact both a prostitute and a murderer of the homeless, do you
feel offended if someone make the gross generalization about you, using the
Cindy theory of overgeneralization, and accused you of feeling up women in
trains?

If you are in fact a prostitute, a murderer of the homeless, and a molester
of women, I give up. You are beyond redemption.

Ernest Schaal

December 21st 03, 05:15 AM

in article , jake at
wrote on 12/21/03 1:37 PM:

> On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 12:54:33 +0900, Ernest Schaal
> > wrote:
>
>> I is a lot more common for Japanese wives to earn
>> extra income by prostitution than it is in the States.
>
> and you know this how?

Japanese newspaper and Japanese television. Not everyone is as ignorant of
Japanese society as you are.

If you ever bothered to learn about other societies, you might be surprised.
But that isn't your style, is it? Instead, your style is to accuse America
of introducing Japan to prostitution when Japan has had it prior to
America's discovery, and to accuse America of introducing Japan to
pornography when Japan has had a long history of that "art."

> I was wondering what on earth an American was doing in Tokyo lecturing
> the Japanese on how marvellous it was for THEM to have their cities
> incinerated and telling them about their own culture..
>
> now we begin to get an inkling..

My god, you are stupid. What makes you assume that I am in Tokyo (I am not).
Many gaijin live in other areas besides Tokyo. You really are stupid, aren't
you?

>> In addition, it is
>> common for middle school girls to earn extra income by not only prostitution
>
> "common" huh?
>
> It may be common in your social circle to pay for sex with
> schoolgirls..for most people it is not..

That statement is true in the States, but unfortunately it is not true in
Japan. If you knew anything about Japan, you would know that. But then you
have shown that you know nothing about Japan.

>> but also by blackmailing their clients;
>
> got stung did you?

No, but it is a common story in the newspapers here. But then, you never dud
bother to learn about Japan, did you>

> serves you right..you should be in jail..
> If you went anywhere near my daughters you might wish you were..

Because I read the newspapers and watch the news I should be in jail? You
have a strange concept of the criminality of knowledge. Being informed about
Japan is not a crime, but if it were a crime you would never be guilty of
it.

>> Are you a whore?
>
> NO she isnt but you are a pervert.

How do you know she isn't? Do you know her personally, or are you simply
assuming she isn't, the same way you assume that prostitution, rape, and
pornography was never here prior to the end of WWII.

Ernest Schaal

December 21st 03, 05:18 AM

Jake,

The more I read you messages, the more I realize how racist and bigoted you
are. You make incorrect assumptions about a society you never bother to
study, the stand by those incorrect assumptions rather than learning from
your betters.

Ernest Schaal

December 21st 03, 05:39 AM

in article , Ernest Schaal at
wrote on 12/21/03 2:18 PM:

> Jake,
>
> The more I read you messages, the more I realize how racist and bigoted you
> are. You make incorrect assumptions about a society you never bother to
> study, the stand by those incorrect assumptions rather than learning from
> your betters.

Jake,

I feel I owe you an explanation of the above.

I stated that I consider you a racist, that is because of your assumptions
of the Japanese that they were incapable of developing prostitution and
pornography on their own, and that it was the "American know-how" (to quote
a previous message of yours) that accounts for their current scandals. You
might think you are being nice to the Japanese, by insinuating that they are
incapable of doing that by themselves, but it is extremely insulting to
assume that another culture doesn't have the smarts or capability to do
anything without their Western teachers. It is as if they are incapable of
having a culture without our help.

As for your bigotry, while you do have bigoted ideas about the Japanese, the
main target of your bigotry is America, which you assume to be the font of
all evil. You even blame America for problems that Japan had prior to both
the first contact with Americans, and the discovery of America.

This bigotry of yours is increased by an ignorance, of which you seem quite
proud. When I pointed out some of the major social problems that Japan has,
rather than learning to see if I were correct, you simply assumed that I was
not because it conflicted with your own stereotypes, including the
stereotype that the Japanese were somehow virginal prior to the war.

Although you are ignorant, and racist, and bigoted, at least you do not seem
to be a hypocrite. You are quite wrong in what you believe, stupidly so, but
no one has accused you of not believing your bigoted drivel. Cindy, on the
other hand is a hypocrite, because in this thread she has condemned in
others the very act she did herself, stereotyping an entire country because
of the actions of some.

Ernest Schaal

December 21st 03, 08:56 AM

in article , jane at
wrote on 12/21/03 2:48 PM:

>
> On 21-Dec-2003, Ernest Schaalaid:
>
>> My god, you are stupid. What makes you assume
>> that I am in Tokyo (I am not).
>
> Its a fair assumption for him to make. A
> geographic
> analysis of your IP indicates a 96% probability
> you are posting from Tokyo using hi-ho.
> Of course,the Matsu****a Electric Industrial Co
> might have a LAN connecting from another area
> via Pana.net
> Judging form the themes and content of your posts,
> the way you speak to women ,
> and your easy acceptance of child abuse and
> pornography it is also a fair assumption you are a
> pervert.
>
> x-- 100 Proof News - http://www.100ProofNews.com
> x-- 3,500+ Binary NewsGroups, and over 90,000 other groups
> x-- Access to over 800 Gigs/Day - $8.95/Month
> x-- UNLIMITED DOWNLOAD
>

Where did you come up with that probability?

Tokyo and its suburbs represents only a minor faction of the Japanese
population, and my IP is a national provider. Your 96% probability figure is
so suspect I wonder about the legitimacy of the figure. Did you get that
figure from somewhere or did you make it up? If you did not fabricate that
figure, please tell me what is the source?

Ernest Schaal

December 21st 03, 09:12 AM

in article , jane at
wrote on 12/21/03 2:57 PM:

>
> On 21-Dec-2003, Ernest Schaalaid posted
>
>> Jake,
>>
>> The more I read you messages, the more I realize
>> how racist and bigoted you
>> are. You make incorrect assumptions about a
>> society you never bother to
>> study, the stand by those incorrect assumptions
>> rather than learning from
>> your betters.
>
> ROTFLMAO
> you say it's normal for Japanese men to ****
> children,
> that married Japanese women are all
> prostitutes,that
> Japanese schoolkids are prostitutes,call a Japanes
> woman in this forum a whore, regale us with
> perverted crap about used panties , then turn
> round and call HIM racist!
> I don't know about jail but you are sure someone
> the Japanese
> could do without in their country.

Jane,

My statement was that there is a current problem of middle school girls (and
high school girls) "dating" middle-aged men on paid dates/tricks. This
phenomena has been widely reported in the press and on the television new
and in television dramas and documentaries.

Another recent phenomena often reported in the Japanese media is the sale of
soiled female panties, preferably from teenage and preteen girls.

A third recent phenomena often reported in the Japanese media is the part
time prostitution by middle-aged wives as a source of additional income and
to relieve boredom.

The fact that you were not aware of all three phenomena indicates that you
have limited exposure to Japan, since it hard to avoid seeing these stories.
(Sort of like not hearing about what is happening with Michael Jackson in
the States or Ian Huntley in Great Britain.

As to calling Jake a racist, I know little about the person, but my limited
exposure to his messages show him assuming that Japan didn't know anything
about videos and video games, although Japan was the nation that developed
both technologies. That line of thinking assumes a low mentality of Japanese
(and Asians) which is truly insulting.

I know nothing about you except that you seem to know as little about Japan
as Jake.

Cindy

December 21st 03, 03:42 PM

Big'un wrote:

> "Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Cindy > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>American morals are corrupt, Jake. They can't even be responsible for
>>>themselves. Christianity does no good any more. If they get a speeding
>>>ticket, it's not their fault but the police officer's. Education system
>>>failed. When they eat, they don't seem to know when to stop eating and
>>>make themselves huge. Usually, fat people are drinking Diet Coke, so I
>>>stay away from any diet drinks. If you can not take care of themselves,
>>>how can they take care of other nations? Good question, huh? Kids fire
>>>a gun in school. Teenage pregnancies. Drugs. Many parents are divorced
>>>and are busy finding another spouse. Lawsuit, lawsuit, lawsuit. If you
>>>need a lot of money, sue someone (who is rich). Abuse of democracy,
>>>abuse of freedom, abuse of anything you can think of. If anything
>>>happens, it's not your fault. It is always someone else's fault.
>>>Therefore, you should stay away from Americans because you never know
>>>when you will have to go to court.
>>>
>>>America has no future, Jake. I feel sorry for young Americans.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Y'know Cindy...there's something to be said for people who
>>cannot see any good in other people too...like, it's always other
>>people who are terrible people, always suing others, on drugs,
>>overweight, abusers, speeders, gangsters etc etc. Are you really
>>the only 'good person' in the world?...seems so when I read your
>>post...
>>--
>>
>>-Gord.
>
>
> Damn fine assessment of the two dip****s that posted just before you,
> Gordon!

I tell you two, no matter what I think, remember Americans are always
right, and their mistakes are always someone else's responsibility.
Thus it's obvious that I am the one who is saying wrong. The rests are
just a whole bunch of bull**** cognitive dissonance that you hear from them.

Cindy

December 21st 03, 03:55 PM

jane wrote:

> On 21-Dec-2003, Ernest Schaalaid:
>
>
>>My god, you are stupid. What makes you assume
>>that I am in Tokyo (I am not).
>
> Its a fair assumption for him to make. A
> geographic
> analysis of your IP indicates a 96% probability
> you are posting from Tokyo using hi-ho.
> Of course,the Matsu****a Electric Industrial Co
> might have a LAN connecting from another area
> via Pana.net
> Judging form the themes and content of your posts,
> the way you speak to women ,
> and your easy acceptance of child abuse and
> pornography it is also a fair assumption you are a
> pervert.

LOL. I am looking for what an excuse he can come up with. Because he
is always right, and we are always wrong, right?

Cindy

December 21st 03, 04:25 PM

jake wrote:

> Given the current state of affairs and the scoundrels in the White
> House the future is dark for young people everywhere..

Besides the White House, one of main reasons is that mothers quit
nurturing their children. In addition, I notice there are so many war
movies recently.

> I think once it hits home that these continuing wars..invasions..and
> aggressions are a smoke screen behind which these creatures enrich
> themslves whilst destroying the American economy and the value of the
> dollar..America will change..

Make sure you won't be sued by anybody before you go to bed every night.
Since people sue you just to make a lot of money at once, you can not
leave a piece of trash outside. It's a scary feeling. Many people here
are obsessed by money.

> Ordinary Americans are decent enough and whist those rednecks you
> mention do exist..most families would be appalled to think their
> offspring did such things whilst overseas and want to be proud of
> them.

And they see all Germans as Hitler and all Japanese as enemies. Also
watching the FOX news channel raises a good ethnocentrism among American
peole.

Ernest Schaal

December 21st 03, 09:09 PM

in article pQjFb.449483$275.1323151@attbi_s53, Cindy at
wrote on 12/22/03 1:25 AM:

> jake wrote:
>
>
>> Given the current state of affairs and the scoundrels in the White
>> House the future is dark for young people everywhere..
>
> Besides the White House, one of main reasons is that mothers quit
> nurturing their children. In addition, I notice there are so many war
> movies recently.
>
>> I think once it hits home that these continuing wars..invasions..and
>> aggressions are a smoke screen behind which these creatures enrich
>> themslves whilst destroying the American economy and the value of the
>> dollar..America will change..
>
> Make sure you won't be sued by anybody before you go to bed every night.
> Since people sue you just to make a lot of money at once, you can not
> leave a piece of trash outside. It's a scary feeling. Many people here
> are obsessed by money.
>
>> Ordinary Americans are decent enough and whist those rednecks you
>> mention do exist..most families would be appalled to think their
>> offspring did such things whilst overseas and want to be proud of
>> them.
>
> And they see all Germans as Hitler and all Japanese as enemies. Also
> watching the FOX news channel raises a good ethnocentrism among American
> peole.

Again with the gross generalizations and stereotypes. It is hard to believe
that this is the same person who only a few days before you were arguing
against making such gross generalizations. What a hypocrite you are.

Here are some true generalizations about Japanese:

There is a much bigger problem with bullying in Japanese schools than in
American schools, and it is not uncommon for the bullied child to commit
suicide to avoid the bullying (old continuing problem).

There is much more discrimination against the disabled in Japan than in the
US and there are fewer accommodations for the disabled. (old continuing
problem).

There is much more child prostitution in Japan than in the US, especially in
the pre-teen and teenage years (alarming current problem).

There is more random violence by adults against school children in Japan
than in the US, with the explanation by the attackers that they were
"agitated."

There is more pornography readily available in Japan than in the US, and
that pornography often includes scenes of violence, rape, murder, and sexual
acts with under-aged girls and boys.

There is more pollution in Japan than in the US.

There is more acts of violence against the homeless in Japan than in the US.

I love Japan, but I am not blind to its problems nor do I share your
tendency to generalize those problems to all Japanese like you generalize
Americas problems to all Americans.

Ernest Schaal

December 21st 03, 09:20 PM

in article _njFb.170967$_M.773249@attbi_s54, Cindy at
wrote on 12/22/03 12:55 AM:

> jane wrote:
>
>> On 21-Dec-2003, Ernest Schaalaid:
>>
>>
>>> My god, you are stupid. What makes you assume
>>> that I am in Tokyo (I am not).
>>
>> Its a fair assumption for him to make. A
>> geographic
>> analysis of your IP indicates a 96% probability
>> you are posting from Tokyo using hi-ho.
>> Of course,the Matsu****a Electric Industrial Co
>> might have a LAN connecting from another area
>> via Pana.net
>> Judging form the themes and content of your posts,
>> the way you speak to women ,
>> and your easy acceptance of child abuse and
>> pornography it is also a fair assumption you are a
>> pervert.
>
> LOL. I am looking for what an excuse he can come up with. Because he
> is always right, and we are always wrong, right?

Cindy, you know better than to buy into the figures by "Jane" (or is it Jake
in a new fake address). After all, you claimed to come from Japan, so you
know that some IP are national.

But then you also know than to make the recent over-generalizations that you
have been making recently. After all, you claim to be married to an
American, living in the States, so you know that those gross generalizations
are incorrect.

No one but you is saying that we are always right and you are always wrong.
Such gross generalizations are wrong, as you correctly pointed out earlier
in the month, but you don't practice what you preach. What a hypocrite you
are!

Jake may be a stupid, bigoted, racist, but at least he doesn't appear to be
a hypocrite like you. He apparently believes the garbage he posts. You, on
the other hand, know better.

Ernest Schaal

December 21st 03, 09:25 PM

in article KbjFb.170923$_M.772808@attbi_s54, Cindy at
wrote on 12/22/03 12:42 AM:

> Big'un wrote:
>
>> "Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> Cindy > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> American morals are corrupt, Jake. They can't even be responsible for
>>>> themselves. Christianity does no good any more. If they get a speeding
>>>> ticket, it's not their fault but the police officer's. Education system
>>>> failed. When they eat, they don't seem to know when to stop eating and
>>>> make themselves huge. Usually, fat people are drinking Diet Coke, so I
>>>> stay away from any diet drinks. If you can not take care of themselves,
>>>> how can they take care of other nations? Good question, huh? Kids fire
>>>> a gun in school. Teenage pregnancies. Drugs. Many parents are divorced
>>>> and are busy finding another spouse. Lawsuit, lawsuit, lawsuit. If you
>>>> need a lot of money, sue someone (who is rich). Abuse of democracy,
>>>> abuse of freedom, abuse of anything you can think of. If anything
>>>> happens, it's not your fault. It is always someone else's fault.
>>>> Therefore, you should stay away from Americans because you never know
>>>> when you will have to go to court.
>>>>
>>>> America has no future, Jake. I feel sorry for young Americans.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Y'know Cindy...there's something to be said for people who
>>> cannot see any good in other people too...like, it's always other
>>> people who are terrible people, always suing others, on drugs,
>>> overweight, abusers, speeders, gangsters etc etc. Are you really
>>> the only 'good person' in the world?...seems so when I read your
>>> post...
>>> --
>>>
>>> -Gord.
>>
>>
>> Damn fine assessment of the two dip****s that posted just before you,
>> Gordon!
>
>
> I tell you two, no matter what I think, remember Americans are always
> right, and their mistakes are always someone else's responsibility.
> Thus it's obvious that I am the one who is saying wrong. The rests are
> just a whole bunch of bull**** cognitive dissonance that you hear from them.

Again with the bigoted stereotypes from someone who was complaining earlier
about stereotypes against Japanese. Boy, aren't you a hypocrite!

No one is saying that Americans are ALWAYS right, except for you. And you
should know better, because you claim to be married to an American and
living in Japan. Or is that the problem? Is your marriage going bad and you
lash out at all Americans rather than fixing your personal problems?

Grow up, you are old enough physically. Now is the time for you to grow up
emotionally.

Ernest Schaal

December 22nd 03, 12:41 AM

in article , jake at
wrote on 12/22/03 9:27 AM:

> hmmm...
> when is the last time you had a holiday Ernest..you REALLY sound like
> you need one..
>
> (I know I said I plonked you) curiosity got the better of the day..but
> just as well as I see you are STILL abusing this poor Japanese woman..
>
> your sure you are not taking advantage of this terrible state of
> affairs in Japan you describe?

Actually yesterday was a great day. We went Christmas shopping around the
eki, saw all the Christmas decorations, and had great desert in a kissaten.
Everything was beautiful.

As for abusing the "poor Japanese woman," I was pointing out her blatant
hypocrisy. You spout nonsense in your messages, but that appears to be
because you are ignorant about Japan and your passionate hatred of America
gets in the way of your judgment, but at least you seem to believe garbage
you spill. Cindy knows better, therefore she is held to a higher standard.

Ernest Schaal

December 22nd 03, 01:04 AM

in article , jake at
wrote on 12/22/03 9:35 AM:

> are you fixated on Cindy?

No, but I do expect more of her than I expect of you

> behave yourself man!
>
> anyway if you call me a racist you dont know what a racist is..
>
> Brojack..Keely and characters like this are racists..

I don't know "Brojack" or "Keely," but I noticed your signature line is
anti-Semitic, and I noticed that your statements about Japan show a racist
assumption about their technological skills (that they imported video and
video game technology from the States, rather than having the technological
and creative skills to invent those technologies themselves.

> --
> A good place to start if we wanted to "clean up America" would
> be to take the jews out of the picture in this country. If you
> did that, all the rest would be easy to take care of. Cause its
> always jews that start all the ****. They always are for all the
> civil rights ****...but behind the scenes they wanna make money
> off the ******s. They love communism and socialism. Most of the
> hard core feminists are jewish lesbians who hate men. We would
> just be better off without all this **** in this country.
>
> The jews are the core, underlying problem in the USA. Everything
> else is just a drop in the bucket.
>
> Eric (LostBoyinNC)

Cindy

December 22nd 03, 01:23 AM

jake wrote:

> hmmm...
> when is the last time you had a holiday Ernest..you REALLY sound like
> you need one..

Probably he needs to get busy or get a job.

> (I know I said I plonked you) curiosity got the better of the day..but
> just as well as I see you are STILL abusing this poor Japanese woman..

Don't worry about me. I got a control!

> your sure you are not taking advantage of this terrible state of
> affairs in Japan you describe?

Probably he wants to, but he can't, so his behavior turns out as
"substitute" behavior. It's a psychological term.

Hey, as I have had discussions with various people from all over the
world, and I am kind a seeing a behavioral pattern of especially
American people.

__
>
> Trolls don't destroy groups, people who are either too stupid or too
> stubborn to use killfiles destroy their own group.

I agree.

> They're like people who bitch about getting wet but insist on going
> out in the rain without an umbrella, then they complain to the
> weatherman and expect him to do something about it.

That's very America! And the weatherman will get sued and the lawyers
will make money. When you divorce, the lawyers make money. Spill your
McDonald's coffee, sue the McDonald's and make millions of dollars. And
of course, the lawyers will make money no matter lose or win.

Cindy

December 22nd 03, 02:00 AM

jake wrote:

> are you fixated on Cindy?

My messages? All the information comes from me and my Japanese friend.
When she and I get together, she has to tell me all this. She has lived
in the USA much longer than I have; therefore, she knows better.

> behave yourself man!

I think he is a weak person ... mentally.

> anyway if you call me a racist you dont know what a racist is..
>
> Brojack..Keely and characters like this are racists..

To American people, everyone who criticizes Americans is racists. They
have to be so very sensitive with other races and ethnic groups.
That's how they were taught, and anything else is considered "bigotry"
or "racism", and it's a taboo behavior. Don't forget the well known
terminology, "discrimination". You'll be sued for this. Then, they try
to enforce their racial rules to other nations such as Japan. They are
so confident because they believe that Americans have the most correct
way of thinking in the world. However, there is a curriculum in
schools, job training, leadership school, and so on to warn the trainees
to be aware of -- "Ethnocentrism is not what Americans want". So, there
seems to be a little hope. Some Americans will be timely updated, but
some Americans will remain ethnocentric.

Ernest Schaal

December 22nd 03, 02:13 AM

in article 8fsFb.173873$_M.793161@attbi_s54, Cindy at
wrote on 12/22/03 11:00 AM:

> To American people, everyone who criticizes Americans is racists. They
> have to be so very sensitive with other races and ethnic groups.
> That's how they were taught, and anything else is considered "bigotry"
> or "racism", and it's a taboo behavior. Don't forget the well known
> terminology, "discrimination". You'll be sued for this. Then, they try
> to enforce their racial rules to other nations such as Japan. They are
> so confident because they believe that Americans have the most correct
> way of thinking in the world. However, there is a curriculum in
> schools, job training, leadership school, and so on to warn the trainees
> to be aware of -- "Ethnocentrism is not what Americans want". So, there
> seems to be a little hope. Some Americans will be timely updated, but
> some Americans will remain ethnocentric.

What caused all this bitterness against Americans? Your American husband
dump you? (You did state previously you married an American)

Ernest Schaal

December 22nd 03, 02:35 AM

in article , jake at
wrote on 12/22/03 11:26 AM:

> the US remade japan in their own image

Do you realize how racist that statement is? It assumes that Japanese
culture is the same as US culture because the Japanese don't have a strong
culture of their own. That shows not only a remarkable ignorance on your
part but an innate racism against Asian cultures.

Ernest Schaal

December 22nd 03, 02:38 AM

in article , jake at
wrote on 12/22/03 11:35 AM:

> I did not find it so taboo in America..
> it is the most racist country I have ever been to and I have ravelled
> the world some..

You have RAVELLED the world. I am unfamiliar with the term "ravelled" but if
you are going it to the world, it is probably not good.

Steve Sundberg

December 22nd 03, 08:04 AM

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 04:59:25 +0000, jake > wrote:

>
>but the Japanese military had already been defeated..

Not in the least, jake. The Japanese were preparing to repel what was
to have been the largest amphibious invasion ever untaken. To do so,
the IJA and IJN were holding in reserve over 7000 aircraft, and
hundreds of suicide submarines. In addition, suicide corps were being
trained to undertake such tasks as attacking any Allied landing craft
as they approached the beaches. Based on the kamikaze success rate at
Okinawa - 1 of every 4 kamikaze hit a target - it was believed even
then that the successive waves of suicide aircraft would damage at
least 25% of the 400-some Allied ships that were to be assembled off
Kyushu in November, 1945, for the first invasion of the Japanese home
islands.

Add to the 3 million IJA troops being held in reserve within Japan the
1 million or so Kwangtung Army troops being transferred back to Japan
from Manchuria, plus an armed militia of 35 million civilians being
trained as a second line of beach defense.

None of this information is new. It was reported and published in a
number of periodicals right after the war, including the Saturday
Evening Post and this, from the Atlantic Monthly in 1946:

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/46dec/compton.htm

>The nuclear bombs were dropped for other reasons than military..
>
>Nagasaki was chosen as a target almost randomly by the pilot
>because of weather conditions..on the strength of it having a
>Mitsubushi factory there..

Random? How so? Nagasaki was the DESIGNATED alternate target to
Kokura. Nothing was random in the least when it came to dropping the
atomic bombs.

Steve Sundberg

December 22nd 03, 08:11 AM

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 18:08:00 GMT, Cindy > wrote:

>
>I read John Dower's "Embracing Defeat". Hey, you got to be proud of
>your country for this service. Sex gave the Japanese fantasy,
>daydreaming, and probably a lot of babies after the defeat. Pan pan
>girls were able to make money off the American GIs. Strip shows were
>first introduced in Asakusa and were the major success. Western women
>were considered to be a sex symbol. Sex was far better than committing
>suicide, after all. You didn't know that, did you?

Cindy, if you read Dower's book, then you no doubt also read that the
Japanese government funded an organization that created the post-war,
occupation system of prostitution in Japan -- including the largest
brothel, known as "Willow Run," in Tokyo. Also, strip shows were
available years before the war ended. Dancers at the Nichigeki
Theater, near Ginza, was showing bare breasts as early as the 1920s.

Steve Sundberg

December 22nd 03, 08:14 AM

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 21:19:40 +0000, jake > wrote:
>
>The US introduced a nightmare

Um, not really. Have you not heard of "comfort women?"

Ernest Schaal

December 22nd 03, 08:48 AM

in article , jake at
wrote on 12/22/03 5:23 PM:

> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:35:14 +0900, Ernest Schaal
> > wrote:
>
>> in article , jake at
>> wrote on 12/22/03 11:26 AM:
>>
>>
>>> the US remade japan in their own image
>>
>>
>> Do you realize how racist that statement is?
>
> nope..
> race has nothing to do with the drive for cultural hegonomy

Sorry, but your bigotry is showing. You didn't state that there was a drive
for cultural hegemony. Instead you stated that US "remade japan in their own
image," which means that there is no separate Japanese identity that
remained. The only way that could occur (which it didn't, by the way) is
that the Asians do not have a strong culture and are easily malleable to be
molded as the US saw fit. That assumption is extremely insulting of Japan,
and Asian cultures in the whole, and shows your inherent racism against
Asian cultures.

[email protected]

December 22nd 03, 05:39 PM

jake > wrote:

>On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:38:14 +0900, Ernest Schaal
> wrote:
>
>>in article , jake at
wrote on 12/22/03 11:35 AM:
>>
>>> I did not find it so taboo in America..
>>> it is the most racist country I have ever been to and I have ravelled
>>> the world some..
>>
>>You have RAVELLED the world. I am unfamiliar with the term "ravelled" but if
>>you are going it to the world, it is probably not good.
>
>has nobody ever taught you that spelling and typo flames are real
>lame?

Especially when you make errors while doing so... :)
--

-Gord.

Yeff

December 22nd 03, 05:50 PM

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 17:39:38 GMT, Gord wrote:

> Especially when you make errors while doing so... :)

Tradishunally, spelling flames are supposed to contain spelling errors.

-Jeff B.
yeff at erols dot com

Ernest Schaal

December 22nd 03, 07:18 PM

in article , jake at
wrote on 12/22/03 11:14 AM:

> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 09:41:25 +0900, Ernest Schaal
> > wrote:
>
>> she is held to a higher standard.
>
> really..?
>
> thata why you were calling her foul nanes I suppose?
>
> what makes you start to imagine that YOU are in any position to
> morally judge others?

Although I consider you an ignorant bigot, your question does deserve a
serious answer. What makes me start to imagine that I am in any position to
morally judge others?

The simple answer is that I consider myself morally superior to you, in that
unlike you I am capable of learning new fact and modifying my opinions when
faced with the truth of those facts. You, on the other hand, have formed
erroneous opinions about Japan and won't let a little thing like the truth
get in the way of those opinions. Your opinion that, prior to the American
occupation, the Japanese did not know prostitution or pornography are
exemplary of your refusal to modify your opinions in view of reality.

A fuller answer is that, unlike you, I am capable limiting my judgments to
the facts, rather than my prejudices. Notice that while I correctly pointed
out that you are a devoutly ignorant bigot, I did not accuse you of things
were not guilty of. For instance, I did not accuse you hypocrisy, since I
realize that you probably believe the nonsense you preach. Also, I did not
accuse Cindy of being ignorant, like you are, since I realize from many
previous threads that she knows better.

Furthermore, it is human nature to judge. You are very judgmental, even
though your judgments are based upon ignorance and bigotry.

December 22nd 03, 07:40 PM

In article <8fsFb.173873$_M.793161@attbi_s54>,
says...
> jake wrote:
>
> > are you fixated on Cindy?
>
> My messages? All the information comes from me and my Japanese friend.
> When she and I get together, she has to tell me all this. She has lived
> in the USA much longer than I have; therefore, she knows better.
>
> > behave yourself man!
>
> I think he is a weak person ... mentally.
>
> > anyway if you call me a racist you dont know what a racist is..
> >
> > Brojack..Keely and characters like this are racists..
>
> To American people, everyone who criticizes Americans is racists.

What happened -- did Kaz spoof your ID? This is an incredibly
bigoted statement based on a generality about a whole nation of
people. Look up "stereotype" in your psychology textbook.

Stereotyping is unacceptable behaviour in any right-thinking culture.
There is nothing wrong with criticizing ethnocentric ity, but do so
on the basis of people's own personal behaviour, not for a behaviour
exhibited by others who you decide to include in their "class" or
group.

Verno

Ernest Schaal

December 22nd 03, 07:43 PM

in article , jake at
wrote on 12/22/03 7:56 PM:

> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 17:48:14 +0900, Ernest Schaal
> > wrote:
>
>> in article , jake at
>> wrote on 12/22/03 5:23 PM:
>>
>>> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:35:14 +0900, Ernest Schaal
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> in article , jake at
>>>> wrote on 12/22/03 11:26 AM:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> the US remade japan in their own image
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do you realize how racist that statement is?
>>>
>>> nope..
>>> race has nothing to do with the drive for cultural hegonomy
>>
>> Sorry, but your bigotry is showing. You didn't state that there was a drive
>> for cultural hegemony. Instead you stated that US "remade japan in their own
>> image," which means that there is no separate Japanese identity that
>> remained. The only way that could occur (which it didn't, by the way) is
>> that the Asians do not have a strong culture and are easily malleable to be
>> molded as the US saw fit. That assumption is extremely insulting of Japan,
>> and Asian cultures in the whole, and shows your inherent racism against
>> Asian cultures.
>
> yawn..
> you are now arguing against your own straw men and figments..
>
> my position is quite clear..there was a synthesis..
> If you just want to troll around flaming folk thats your
> perogative,,
>
> just dont delude yourself it relates in any way to the discussion

I can understand your yawn. You don't seem to ignore anything that is not in
line with your deeply formed opinions.

I will gladly admit that you are much more bigoted than racist. Your hatred
of America takes on the forms of an obsession. Some say they aren't
anti-American, but simply anti-Bush and the acts of the current government,
but your tirades accuse much earlier governments and your tirades are so
outrageous that it shows a deep and bitter resentment against America as a
whole, rather than a present government.

I don't know the reasons for your deep hatred of America, but your messages
give some clues for possible reasons. For instance, in a recent reply to
Cindy you mentioned that in visiting the States you found it to be the most
racist nation, and in another message you admitted to knowing nothing of
Asian history except that which intersects with European history. That makes
me think that possibly you are one of the embittered fraction of continental
Europeans who bemoan the fact that, except for Britain, European culture has
been dwarfed by American and other cultures. It is possible that you are not
European, but that seems the more likely at this time.

Having said all that, I still see, within your blatant bigotry against
America, definite racist against Asians, based in large part on your
assumptions made about the Japanese.

Cindy

December 22nd 03, 10:37 PM

jake wrote:

> I did not find it so taboo in America..

Well, people are ambushing; awaiting to see you make *the* mistake.
Therefore, you got to watch what you're saying. There are some keywords
that you are not supposed to voice.

> it is the most racist country I have ever been to and I have ravelled
> the world some..

Since they are trying too hard not to be racial, their efforts turn out
to be a reverse effect. It ended up in making *everybody* feel
discriminated or neglected, even the majority.

> yes there is hope ..
> and when the enormity of the trick played on them sinks in
> America will change..

I am sure Americans are proud of their glorious histories and good deeds
any time in the past; however, it is not quite right for them to think
that they are the same Americans as used to be, such as John Adams's
times. People are completely different by the time of the Government
because the Government is the morals and ethics guideline of the nation.

> this next election will be important for the history of the world..
> will they return to the fold of the civilized world and accept
> the rule of law as other nations do...?
>
> or will they descend further into barbarian behaviors and chaos..?

It shows that anyone can be the president in the USA, doesn't it?

> --
> "Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an
> invisible government owing no allegiance and
> acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To
> destroy this invisible government, to befoul the
> unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt
> politics is the first task of the statesmanship of
> today."
>
> - Theodore Roosevelt, 19 April 1906

Ernest Schaal

December 22nd 03, 11:03 PM

in article %mKFb.625278$Tr4.1618420@attbi_s03, Cindy at
wrote on 12/23/03 7:37 AM:

> I am sure Americans are proud of their glorious histories and good deeds
> any time in the past; however, it is not quite right for them to think
> that they are the same Americans as used to be, such as John Adams's
> times. People are completely different by the time of the Government
> because the Government is the morals and ethics guideline of the nation.

If all Americans are so bad, why do you continue to live there? Do you lump
your husband in ALL Americans as bad too, or is it because of your problems
with your husband that you hate America so?

Cindy

December 22nd 03, 11:16 PM

jake wrote:

> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 17:48:14 +0900, Ernest Schaal
> > wrote:
>
>
>>in article , jake at
wrote on 12/22/03 5:23 PM:
>>
>>
>>>On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:35:14 +0900, Ernest Schaal
> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>in article , jake at
wrote on 12/22/03 11:26 AM:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>the US remade japan in their own image
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Do you realize how racist that statement is?
>>>
>>>nope..
>>>race has nothing to do with the drive for cultural hegonomy
>>
>>Sorry, but your bigotry is showing. You didn't state that there was a drive
>>for cultural hegemony. Instead you stated that US "remade japan in their own
>>image," which means that there is no separate Japanese identity that
>>remained. The only way that could occur (which it didn't, by the way) is
>>that the Asians do not have a strong culture and are easily malleable to be
>>molded as the US saw fit. That assumption is extremely insulting of Japan,
>>and Asian cultures in the whole, and shows your inherent racism against
>>Asian cultures.
>
>
> yawn..
> you are now arguing against your own straw men and figments..

See, in the middle of discussion, they suddenly lose their temper over
one phrase and start shouting the "R" words. It happens all the time,
so I've had enough with them. I tell you, Jake -- they don't change
their mind; they won't be persuaded. There is no wonder because they
believe they are the best; nothing mustn't beat them. So, it's
generally a waste of time. If I were a good American, I would let the
Japanese be -- like the Japanese let Americans be Americans during the
occupation period. However, I can't expect them to understand my
thought of reciprocal because people are different.

> my position is quite clear..there was a synthesis..
> If you just want to troll around flaming folk thats your
> perogative,,
>
> just dont delude yourself it relates in any way to the discussion

I think it's time for him to return to the USA too. I'll bet he will be
an excellent US Citizen too.