British Hold German Motor

[Ashton Archer III]

A rather fascinating view of the Walter HWK booster intended for the Me-262 H.IV

http://www.walter-rockets.i12.com/ato/me262iv3.htm

Looks like its in farly good condition for its age.

Ashton Archer III

[Yann Delcan]

Is it similar to the one fitted on an experimental Me262C-1a flown by Heinz
Bar (III./EJG 2 march 1945) depicted as profile #7 in Osprey's German Jet
Aces of WW2. ?

> A rather fascinating view of the Walter HWK booster intended for the
Me-262 H.IV
>
> http://www.walter-rockets.i12.com/ato/me262iv3.htm
>
> Looks like its in farly good condition for its age.

Clearly, yes.
I wonder where this jewel rests.

[Krztalizer]

>Is it similar to the one fitted on an experimental Me262C-1a flown by Heinz
>Bar (III./EJG 2 march 1945) depicted as profile #7 in Osprey's German Jet
>Aces of WW2. ?

That particular aircraft/motor combination did not work out too well. This
configuration was the proposed motor for the production version of the "Home
Defense Interceptor" took into account various fixes that, it was hoped, would
keep the damn thing from igniting the entire tail while in operation.

G

[The Enlightenment]

"Krztalizer" > wrote in message
...
> >Is it similar to the one fitted on an experimental Me262C-1a flown
by Heinz
> >Bar (III./EJG 2 march 1945) depicted as profile #7 in Osprey's
German Jet
> >Aces of WW2. ?
>
> That particular aircraft/motor combination did not work out too
well. This
> configuration was the proposed motor for the production version of
the "Home
> Defense Interceptor" took into account various fixes that, it was
hoped, would
> keep the damn thing from igniting the entire tail while in
operation.
>
> G

I have a picture of an NF104 starfighter with an rocket motor in an
extension where you would expect to find a drag shute. It apparently
used to climb to 130,000 ft and there by controlled by a reaction
control system while it might find itself in zero G for 1 minute.
There was also a Saunder Roe Jet/Rocket interceptor.

Rocket supplemented jets I think considered seriously by everyone at
some stage. Advances in jet engine power to weight ratio and
afterburners probably obviating the need for the complexity for rocket
boosters. Still the climb performance of these rocket experimental
1940s/1950s planes was spectacular: matching that of the supersonic
interceptors the 60s and 70s.

One of the more interesting pieces of German WW2 work was the BMW003R.
This was essentially a BMW003 turbojet (800kg thrusts) with an
strengthened accessories drive to extract 200hp for powering
centrifugal propellant pumps via clutches for the hypergolic
propellants into a rocket chamber mounted at the rear.

The rocket chamber and accessories for an additional rocket thrust of
1250kg only added 80kg to the 600kg BMW003 and the chamber is tiny:
fitting onto the tail of the jet.

A Me 262C-2b fitted with two of these BMW003R's and a 1000kg faired
belly drop tank could perform a 140 second burn and reach 10000m in
less than 1 minute 55 seconds and have a range of 1700km overall.
The ultimate aim was to use tri-propellants: 2 hypergolics for
ignition and oxidant plus the standard fuel supply.

The Me 262C-2b with BMW003R was an alternative to the Me 262C-1a
which had standard Jumo 004B engines and a completely separate rocket
motor in a modified tail. (which the preceing post was about)

The BMW003R was also to be fitted to the Me162 salamander/volksjaeger
which was expected to go from a standing start to 10,000m in 2 minutes
50 seconds.


I suspect for the Germans who had a need to perform rapid
interceptions while evading interception themselves at takeoff and
climb it must have seemed a good idea.

The Focke Wulf TA183 which inspired the Mig 15 had provision in the
design for supplemental rocket boosting.

[Krztalizer]

<snipped Bernd's comments on late war rocket assisted a/c projects>

Small nit -

>The BMW003R was also to be fitted to the Me162 salamander/volksjaeger

He 162. Not sure I have ever seen a design proposal for an 8-162 with
integrated internal rocket - do you have a scan I could see? I am quite
intrigued with the unique nature of human ingenuity in times of crisis, and
German end-of-war aviation is a great example of it.

v/r
Gordon


<====(A+C====>
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send those old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

[robert arndt]

> The Me 262C-2b with BMW003R was an alternative to the Me 262C-1a
> which had standard Jumo 004B engines and a completely separate rocket
> motor in a modified tail. (which the preceing post was about)

The original post wasn't about the Me-262 C-1a Heimatschuzer I. That
aircraft had two Jumo 004B plus a Walter R-II/211/3 rocket engine in
the rear fuselage.

Photos:

http://fun.supereva.it/arse.freeweb/me262C-1a_photo1.jpg
http://fun.supereva.it/arse.freeweb/me262C-1a_photo2.jpg
http://fun.supereva.it/arse.freeweb/me262c1a.jpg

The engine in the original post is for the Heimatschutzer IV which
would have had two Jumo 004B plus a Walter 109-509S2 in a faired belly
pack, not in the rear fuselage.

The Me-262 C-2b with the BMW 003R (BMW 003 plus BMW 718) is the
Heimatschutzer II.

Photos:

http://fun.supereva.it/arse.freeweb/me262C-2b_photo1.jpg
http://fun.supereva.it/arse.freeweb/me262C-2b_photo2.jpg

Rob

[Marc Reeve]

The Enlightenment > wrote:

> "Krztalizer" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >Is it similar to the one fitted on an experimental Me262C-1a flown
> by Heinz
> > >Bar (III./EJG 2 march 1945) depicted as profile #7 in Osprey's
> German Jet
> > >Aces of WW2. ?
> >
> > That particular aircraft/motor combination did not work out too
> well. This
> > configuration was the proposed motor for the production version of
> the "Home
> > Defense Interceptor" took into account various fixes that, it was
> hoped, would
> > keep the damn thing from igniting the entire tail while in
> operation.
> >
> > G
>
> I have a picture of an NF104 starfighter with an rocket motor in an
> extension where you would expect to find a drag shute. It apparently
> used to climb to 130,000 ft and there by controlled by a reaction
> control system while it might find itself in zero G for 1 minute.

Yeah, that'd be the "Space Pilot Trainer." Program canceled after Chuck
Yeager pranged one and a second had the rocket engine explode, taking
off a large chunk of its tail (but the pilot, whose name I cannot
recall, landed it safely). The third one stands on a pole at the Test
Pilot School. (The airframe that was to be converted into a fourth
NF-104 has now been converted into a vehicle for a land speed record
attempt as the "North American Eagle" <www.landspeed.com>.)

-Marc

--
Marc Reeve
actual email address after removal of 4s & spaces is
c4m4r4a4m4a4n a4t c4r4u4z4i4o d4o4t c4o4m

[Nick Pedley]

"Yann Delcan" > wrote in message
...
> Is it similar to the one fitted on an experimental Me262C-1a flown by
Heinz
> Bar (III./EJG 2 march 1945) depicted as profile #7 in Osprey's German Jet
> Aces of WW2. ?
>
> > A rather fascinating view of the Walter HWK booster intended for the
> Me-262 H.IV
> >
> > http://www.walter-rockets.i12.com/ato/me262iv3.htm
> >
> > Looks like its in farly good condition for its age.
>
> Clearly, yes.
> I wonder where this jewel rests.
>
>
As the website says below the picture, at the RAF Museum store at Cardington
or at RAF Stafford. You could ask them too.

Nick

[Ashton Archer III]

(robert arndt) wrote in message >...
> > The Me 262C-2b with BMW003R was an alternative to the Me 262C-1a
> > which had standard Jumo 004B engines and a completely separate rocket
> > motor in a modified tail. (which the preceing post was about)
>
> The original post wasn't about the Me-262 C-1a Heimatschuzer I. That
> aircraft had two Jumo 004B plus a Walter R-II/211/3 rocket engine in
> the rear fuselage.
>
> Photos:
>
> http://fun.supereva.it/arse.freeweb/me262C-1a_photo1.jpg
> http://fun.supereva.it/arse.freeweb/me262C-1a_photo2.jpg
> http://fun.supereva.it/arse.freeweb/me262c1a.jpg
>
> The engine in the original post is for the Heimatschutzer IV which
> would have had two Jumo 004B plus a Walter 109-509S2 in a faired belly
> pack, not in the rear fuselage.
>
> The Me-262 C-2b with the BMW 003R (BMW 003 plus BMW 718) is the
> Heimatschutzer II.
>
> Photos:
>
> http://fun.supereva.it/arse.freeweb/me262C-2b_photo1.jpg
> http://fun.supereva.it/arse.freeweb/me262C-2b_photo2.jpg
>
> Rob

Nice photos, but was any Me-262 C-3 completed by war's end?

Ashton Archer III

[Keith Willshaw]

"Nick Pedley" > wrote in message
...

> >
> As the website says below the picture, at the RAF Museum store at
Cardington
> or at RAF Stafford. You could ask them too.
>
> Nick
>
>

I rather think the store at Cardington has been closed
since 1999. I believe the collection stored there was relocated
to RAF Cosford.

Keith

[The Enlightenment]

(Krztalizer) wrote in message >...
> <snipped Bernd's comments on late war rocket assisted a/c projects>
>
> Small nit -
>
> >The BMW003R was also to be fitted to the Me162 salamander/volksjaeger
>
> He 162. Not sure I have ever seen a design proposal for an 8-162 with
> integrated internal rocket - do you have a scan I could see? I am quite
> intrigued with the unique nature of human ingenuity in times of crisis, and
> German end-of-war aviation is a great example of it.
>
> v/r
> Gordon
>


Most of what I've said comes from the book:
"German jet engine and gas turbine development 1930 to 1945" by
Anthony L Kay.

I'll post an OCR and email a scan in a few days when I am back home.

Towards the end of the war quite a few Jet Engine programs were
cancelled in December 1944 or so presumably to concentrate on
essential programs considering the dire situation of the Reich.
There do exist minutes of meetings which then called for the
implementation of certain things such as the BMW003R rocket-jet engine
on the He162 and this came of those minutes despite no formal order
being issued. The He 162 program moved pretty fast.

BMW also started work on a new engine that was essentialy a scaled up
BMW003 on the basis of such minutes, so they must have been taken
seriously, with an increased thrust of 1700kg to be interchangeable
with the He S11 which was achieving 1100kg on the test stand and in
the form of the 009-011A production variants (for prototype aircraft)

The BMW003 had much respect as its combustion chamber life was 200
hours and the turbine hot section could be removed and replaced in
less than 2 hours: the turbine lasting 20 to 60 hours depending on
production series. The GT101 gas turbine which powered an
experimental gas turbine panther tank also used a 1/2 mass flow scaled
BMW003 combustion chamber with a diaginal/axial hybrid compressor in
order to try and match the T34s power to weight ratio while using
crude fuels.