?? Wasps flew Hurricanes and Spits??

[vincent p. norris]

While at the Wright Memorial earlier this week, I picked up a NASA
pamphlet entitled _Celebrating a Century of Flight_.

On page 13 there's a picture of Jackie Cochran with a caption quoting
her as saying, about the WASPS, "We landed planes like the Hurricane
and the Spitfire in fields where I wouldn't land my Lodestar today if
I could avoid it."

I find that hard to believe. Anyone know if the WASPS flew Huricanes
and Spits? If so, what were the circumstances?

vince norris

[Brian Colwell]

"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
...
> While at the Wright Memorial earlier this week, I picked up a NASA
> pamphlet entitled _Celebrating a Century of Flight_.
>
> On page 13 there's a picture of Jackie Cochran with a caption quoting
> her as saying, about the WASPS, "We landed planes like the Hurricane
> and the Spitfire in fields where I wouldn't land my Lodestar today if
> I could avoid it."
>
> I find that hard to believe. Anyone know if the WASPS flew Huricanes
> and Spits? If so, what were the circumstances?
>
> vince norris

I would say most likely.....A pilot I worked with flew with the ATA during
WW2 and she ferried everything from fighters to bombers from Nth America to
Britain...an incredible performance, very often they they had little
experience on type and learned the hard way !!

BMC

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: ?? Wasps flew Hurricanes and Spits??
>From: vincent p. norris
>Date: 12/19/03 4:33 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>While at the Wright Memorial earlier this week, I picked up a NASA
>pamphlet entitled _Celebrating a Century of Flight_.
>
>On page 13 there's a picture of Jackie Cochran with a caption quoting
>her as saying, about the WASPS, "We landed planes like the Hurricane
>and the Spitfire in fields where I wouldn't land my Lodestar today if
>I could avoid it."
>
>I find that hard to believe. Anyone know if the WASPS flew Huricanes
>and Spits? If so, what were the circumstances?
>
>vince norris


Thye sure did and in most cases qanded them on grass fields. Not a runway in
sight. And what with Brit weather these grass fields were often muddy and quite
dangerous. But these Wasps piled up huge hours and many had more hours in the
air than most combat pilots. They were good. Real good.

Regards,

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Cub Driver]

>I find that hard to believe. Anyone know if the WASPS flew Huricanes
>and Spits? If so, what were the circumstances?

Women served as delivery pilots for the RAF. It's probably that some
of the WASP did that duty as well.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Ed Majden]

"Cub Driver"
> >I find that hard to believe. Anyone know if the WASPS flew Huricanes
> >and Spits? If so, what were the circumstances?
>
There was a TV program on this very topic commemorating their service in
the ATA and the WASPS. These talented women flew nearly everything on
inventory from heavy bombers, trainers, to the latest fighters of that time.
In the beginning ground crews where often shocked to see a wisp of a woman
climb out of a heavy bomber when it was delivered to an active base. They
often waited for the expected male pilot to climb out of the aircraft but
there was none. According to this TV program a memorial has been set up in
England commemorating the personnel of the ATA that lost their lives doing
this important work.

[Matt Wiser]

(ArtKramr) wrote:
>>Subject: ?? Wasps flew Hurricanes and Spits??
>>From: vincent p. norris
>>Date: 12/19/03 4:33 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>While at the Wright Memorial earlier this week,
>I picked up a NASA
>>pamphlet entitled _Celebrating a Century of
>Flight_.
>>
>>On page 13 there's a picture of Jackie Cochran
>with a caption quoting
>>her as saying, about the WASPS, "We landed
>planes like the Hurricane
>>and the Spitfire in fields where I wouldn't
>land my Lodestar today if
>>I could avoid it."
>>
>>I find that hard to believe. Anyone know if
>the WASPS flew Huricanes
>>and Spits? If so, what were the circumstances?
>>
>>vince norris
>
>
>Thye sure did and in most cases qanded them
>on grass fields. Not a runway in
>sight. And what with Brit weather these grass
>fields were often muddy and quite
>dangerous. But these Wasps piled up huge hours
>and many had more hours in the
>air than most combat pilots. They were good.
>Real good.
>
>Regards,
>
>Arthur Kramer
>344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>
If society then had allowed it, how would they have done in combat? A number
of them have in recent years asked themselves that question, and they had
no easy answers. Some would have done well, some not, just like the guys.
And the Luftwaffe would have been just as appalled as it was when a Luftwaffe
Me-109 driver shot down a Yak-1 and landed to get a piece of the plane to
confirm the kill: he found a female pilot's body in the cockpit. First Luftwaffe
indication of Soviet women in air combat.

Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

[vincent p. norris]

>Not quite sure what your question is.

Let me rephrase it, Emmanuel:

1. Were not all WASPS stationed in the US?

2. Did they ferry airplanes to England? If so, did they they then
fly RAF aircraft around Britain, or did they promptly return to the
US?

I'm not asking about ATA, or the British use of British women to ferry
airplanes, which I think is what Art is talking about.
>
> If you are wondering
>why American WASPS would be flying British fighters,
>then the answer must be that before Jackie Cochrane joined
>the WAFS and leader became the commander of the WASP,
>she spent some time in the British ATA. For about a year
>and a half, a group of American women volunteers (the
>organisation began before Pearl Harbour) flew for the
>ATA. Some stayed with the ATA until the end of the war.

OK, I understand you to be saying "No" to my original question.
>
>As to whether these women flew high-performance fighters,
>certainly, and bombers (much heavier on the controls) as
>well.

Yes, I know the WASPS did that, but was it not limited to
American-made fighters and bombers?

vince norris

[Cub Driver]

>1. Were not all WASPS stationed in the US?

Strictly speaking, the word is WASP (Women Airforce Service Pilots).
>
>2. Did they ferry airplanes to England? If so, did they they then
>fly RAF aircraft around Britain, or did they promptly return to the
>US?

I think Emmannuel was referring to women who first worked for the RAF,
then transferred to the WASP after October 1942. There is a novel,
later TV mini-series, about such a woman, and I assume her character
was based on reality.
>
>I'm not asking about ATA, or the British use of British women to ferry
>airplanes, which I think is what Art is talking about.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

> If society then had allowed it, how would they have done in combat? A number
>of them have in recent years asked themselves that question, and they had
>no easy answers.

Of course being an excellent pilot (as the WASP no doubt were) is no
guarantee that you will be a good combat pilot. I have no grasp of
what it takes to fly a plane in combat. I think from my army training
that I could manage to work my way through infantry combat, but I'm
not so sure about the sort of thing that was going on in the air in
WWII. And 1940s women of course were carrying extra baggage in their
upbringing as helpers, mates, mothers etc etc.

Still there is no question that some of them would have made the
passage into combat flying. Essentially we are all made out of the
same raw material. Women were fighting as partisans in Yugoslavia in
the 1940s, and working with the resistance movements elsewhere; women
dropped as spies into German-occupied Europe; and women flew as combat
fighter pilots with the Red Air Force. Civilization is fairly thin on
us. I suspect that if the WASP had been required to fight, the
survivors would have acquitted themselves as well as the Russian women
pilots.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Alan Minyard]

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 02:58:42 GMT, "Brian Colwell" > wrote:

>
>"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
...
>> While at the Wright Memorial earlier this week, I picked up a NASA
>> pamphlet entitled _Celebrating a Century of Flight_.
>>
>> On page 13 there's a picture of Jackie Cochran with a caption quoting
>> her as saying, about the WASPS, "We landed planes like the Hurricane
>> and the Spitfire in fields where I wouldn't land my Lodestar today if
>> I could avoid it."
>>
>> I find that hard to believe. Anyone know if the WASPS flew Huricanes
>> and Spits? If so, what were the circumstances?
>>
>> vince norris
>
>I would say most likely.....A pilot I worked with flew with the ATA during
>WW2 and she ferried everything from fighters to bombers from Nth America to
>Britain...an incredible performance, very often they they had little
>experience on type and learned the hard way !!
>
>BMC
>
Of course there were no Spits or Hurricanes built in the US.

Al Minyard

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: ?? Wasps flew Hurricanes and Spits??
>From: Alan Minyard
>Date: 12/21/03 5:52 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 02:58:42 GMT, "Brian Colwell" > wrote:
>
>>
>>"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
...
>>> While at the Wright Memorial earlier this week, I picked up a NASA
>>> pamphlet entitled _Celebrating a Century of Flight_.
>>>
>>> On page 13 there's a picture of Jackie Cochran with a caption quoting
>>> her as saying, about the WASPS, "We landed planes like the Hurricane
>>> and the Spitfire in fields where I wouldn't land my Lodestar today if
>>> I could avoid it."
>>>
>>> I find that hard to believe. Anyone know if the WASPS flew Huricanes
>>> and Spits? If so, what were the circumstances?
>>>
>>> vince norris
>>
>>I would say most likely.....A pilot I worked with flew with the ATA during
>>WW2 and she ferried everything from fighters to bombers from Nth America to
>>Britain...an incredible performance, very often they they had little
>>experience on type and learned the hard way !!
>>
>>BMC
>>
>Of course there were no Spits or Hurricanes built in the US.
>
>Al Minyard


They flew what had to be flown.from and to where they were needed.

Regards,


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Jan Swensen]

Not mentioned here-

http://www.wasp-wwii.org/wasp/home.htm

[Ashton Archer III]

"Ed Majden" > wrote in message news:<hM%Eb.760563$6C4.347245@pd7tw1no>...
> "Cub Driver"
> > >I find that hard to believe. Anyone know if the WASPS flew Huricanes
> > >and Spits? If so, what were the circumstances?
> >
> There was a TV program on this very topic commemorating their service in
> the ATA and the WASPS. These talented women flew nearly everything on
> inventory from heavy bombers, trainers, to the latest fighters of that time.
> In the beginning ground crews where often shocked to see a wisp of a woman
> climb out of a heavy bomber when it was delivered to an active base. They
> often waited for the expected male pilot to climb out of the aircraft but
> there was none. According to this TV program a memorial has been set up in
> England commemorating the personnel of the ATA that lost their lives doing
> this important work.


Of course they flew all kinds of aircraft including the Spitfire:

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2000/n03232000_20003231.html

While researching this topic I also came across the story of Roberta
Cowell (a.k.a. Robert Cowell, Spitfire pilot) which is bizarre but
true:

http://www.transgenderzone.com/features/roberta_cowell.htm

In modern times, Carolyn Grace is also the world's only certified
female Spitfire pilot:

http://www.ukwarbirds.fsnet.co.uk/operators%20%20grace.htm

Ashton Archer III

[Ian McKellan]

> While researching this topic I also came across the story of Roberta
> Cowell (a.k.a. Robert Cowell, Spitfire pilot) which is bizarre but
> true:
>
> http://www.transgenderzone.com/features/roberta_cowell.htm

Absolutely fascinating story. Does anyone know how many kills she/he
had during the war?

Ian

[Cub Driver]

>Does anyone know how many kills she/he
>had during the war?

If Cowell existed, she evidently wasn't credited with as many as five,
since no such person is listed in Aces High.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Joe Osman]

Ashton Archer III wrote:
>
> "Ed Majden" > wrote in message news:<hM%Eb.760563$6C4.347245@pd7tw1no>...
> > "Cub Driver"
> > > >I find that hard to believe. Anyone know if the WASPS flew Huricanes
> > > >and Spits? If so, what were the circumstances?
> > >
> > There was a TV program on this very topic commemorating their service in
> > the ATA and the WASPS. These talented women flew nearly everything on
> > inventory from heavy bombers, trainers, to the latest fighters of that time.
> > In the beginning ground crews where often shocked to see a wisp of a woman
> > climb out of a heavy bomber when it was delivered to an active base. They
> > often waited for the expected male pilot to climb out of the aircraft but
> > there was none. According to this TV program a memorial has been set up in
> > England commemorating the personnel of the ATA that lost their lives doing
> > this important work.
>
> Of course they flew all kinds of aircraft including the Spitfire:
>
> http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2000/n03232000_20003231.html
>
> While researching this topic I also came across the story of Roberta
> Cowell (a.k.a. Robert Cowell, Spitfire pilot) which is bizarre but
> true:
>
> http://www.transgenderzone.com/features/roberta_cowell.htm
>
> In modern times, Carolyn Grace is also the world's only certified
> female Spitfire pilot:
>
> http://www.ukwarbirds.fsnet.co.uk/operators%20%20grace.htm
>
> Ashton Archer III

The USAF is way ahead of you Brits. I read a biography of
the WWI US Air Service Medal of Honor winner Frank Luke that
mentioned how he loved to go to bars dressed like a woman.
Luke Air Force Base in Arizona is named after him.

Joe


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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[Ron]

Alan Minyard > wrote in message >...
> On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 02:58:42 GMT, "Brian Colwell" > wrote:
>
> >
> >"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> While at the Wright Memorial earlier this week, I picked up a NASA
> >> pamphlet entitled _Celebrating a Century of Flight_.
> >>
> >> On page 13 there's a picture of Jackie Cochran with a caption quoting
> >> her as saying, about the WASPS, "We landed planes like the Hurricane
> >> and the Spitfire in fields where I wouldn't land my Lodestar today if
> >> I could avoid it."
> >>
> >> I find that hard to believe. Anyone know if the WASPS flew Huricanes
> >> and Spits? If so, what were the circumstances?
> >>
> >> vince norris
> >
> >I would say most likely.....A pilot I worked with flew with the ATA during
> >WW2 and she ferried everything from fighters to bombers from Nth America to
> >Britain...an incredible performance, very often they they had little
> >experience on type and learned the hard way !!
> >
> >BMC
> >
> Of course there were no Spits or Hurricanes built in the US.
>
> Al Minyard



They were built in Canada.

Ferry Command had a lot of women pilots.

[M. J. Powell]

In message >, Ashton
Archer III > writes
>"Ed Majden" > wrote in message
>news:<hM%Eb.760563$6C4.347245@pd7tw1no>...
>> "Cub Driver"
>> > >I find that hard to believe. Anyone know if the WASPS flew Huricanes
>> > >and Spits? If so, what were the circumstances?
>> >
>> There was a TV program on this very topic commemorating their service in
>> the ATA and the WASPS. These talented women flew nearly everything on
>> inventory from heavy bombers, trainers, to the latest fighters of that time.
>> In the beginning ground crews where often shocked to see a wisp of a woman
>> climb out of a heavy bomber when it was delivered to an active base. They
>> often waited for the expected male pilot to climb out of the aircraft but
>> there was none. According to this TV program a memorial has been set up in
>> England commemorating the personnel of the ATA that lost their lives doing
>> this important work.
>
>
>Of course they flew all kinds of aircraft including the Spitfire:
>
>http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2000/n03232000_20003231.html
>
>While researching this topic I also came across the story of Roberta
>Cowell (a.k.a. Robert Cowell, Spitfire pilot) which is bizarre but
>true:
>
>http://www.transgenderzone.com/features/roberta_cowell.htm
>
>In modern times, Carolyn Grace is also the world's only certified
>female Spitfire pilot:
>
>http://www.ukwarbirds.fsnet.co.uk/operators%20%20grace.htm

Picture of her and her 2-seater Spitfire trainer in the latest
'Fly-Past'.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

[robert arndt]

Cub Driver > wrote in message >...
> >Does anyone know how many kills she/he
> >had during the war?
>
> If Cowell existed, she evidently wasn't credited with as many as five,
> since no such person is listed in Aces High.
>
> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email:
>
> see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
> and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com


Robert Cowell's medical history would have seemed to disqualify him
from flying; however, he did enlist in Jan 1940 in the R.A.S.C. after
turning down a mechanical engineer (he was a car racer previously)
position with Ordnance. He was sent to Aldershot. In Jan 1941 Cowell
was posted to a unit in Cambridgeshire with the rank of capt. He was
in charge of mobile workshops.
In May 1941 he was sent to Iceland as Officer Commanding Heavy Repair
Shops. From there, Cowell transfered to the R.A.F. and went back to
England. He at first was trained on Tiger Moths but then was put on a
twin-engined aircraft with a view to becoming a bomber pilot. That
fell through so he went back to single-engined fighter trainers and
flew the Miles Master until graduating up to the Spitfire.
Later in the war, Cowell was part of a fighter squadron that took part
in the invasion of France. His squadron was in Normandy and stayed in
France through the liberation. On Cowell's second tour of operations
on a mission east of the Rhine his Spitfire took flak full in the
engine. A second shell tore a hole in the port wing. Cowell crash
landed at high speed but survived. For the remainder of the war Cowell
was at Stalag Luft I up near the Baltic between Lubeck and Rostock
until liberated by the Russians on May 5, 1945.
There is no record in Cowell's autobiography of having shot down any
German aircraft; however, he was attacked by German aircraft and took
out some ground targets including IIRC part of a V-1 launch site.

Rob

p.s. Hope this info helps... but does anyone know what R.A.S.C. stands
for?

[Sid Wood]

"robert arndt" > wrote in message
om...
>
> p.s. Hope this info helps... but does anyone know what R.A.S.C. stands
> for?

Royal Army Service Corps?

[Dave Eadsforth]

In article . rogers.com
>, Sid Wood > writes
>
>"robert arndt" > wrote in message
om...
>>
>> p.s. Hope this info helps... but does anyone know what R.A.S.C. stands
>> for?
>
>Royal Army Service Corps?
>
>
More cruelly referred to by other units as:

'Run Away - Someone's Coming'

And of course the Local Defence Volunteers were saddled with:

'Look, Duck, Vanish'

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

[robert arndt]

> The USAF is way ahead of you Brits. I read a biography of
> the WWI US Air Service Medal of Honor winner Frank Luke that
> mentioned how he loved to go to bars dressed like a woman.
> Luke Air Force Base in Arizona is named after him.
>
> Joe

How ironic too that the first US transsexual was Christine Jorgensen,
a former G.I. from the Bronx!!!
IIRC, he served post-WW2 though... Cowell was a Spitfire pilot and
POW.

Rob

p.s. Cowell's autobiography is OOP but still can be obtained from
www.bookfinder.com for a small fee. Jorgensen's book was reprinted in
2000 (ISBN 1573441007) and available.
I read Cowell's book which is fairly interesting, especially the
period in the R.A.F. Still, there is no documentation provided of
Cowell's record in Spits aside from his own memory and a few photos of
his military I.D and POW card. Sad too that as a woman Cowell lost all
interest in both flying and racing cars.

[Richard Cole]

And then we had the RAMC: Royal Army Medical Corps, with the alias run away, matron's coming or rob and murder our comrades!

Sorry fellas, you did a good job putting me back together! Cambridge Military Hospital at Aldershot and the Royal Herbert Military hospital at Woolwich - which had a magnificent view of the graveyard, but now defunct!

Richard. very ex-paratrooper!