This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene

[ArtKramr]

The 101st was almost out of food and 30 cal. ammo for their Garands. Many froze
to death in their foxholes overnight. It was still snowing. But they never
allowed the Germans to take the critical Batogne crossroads. In the meantime at
our field we had all our 6x6 with snowplows keeping our runway clear, Word
was we would be able to fly tomorrow, the 23rd. We just kept looking at the sky
and thinking of the Battered *******s of Bastogne. We were so close we could
almost touch them, but there was nothing we could do until the sky cleared. We
all hoped for a better tomorrow. Iron men in harms way.

..
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[James Linn]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> The 101st was almost out of food and 30 cal. ammo for their Garands. Many
froze
> to death in their foxholes overnight. It was still snowing. But they never
> allowed the Germans to take the critical Batogne crossroads. In the
meantime at
> our field we had all our 6x6 with snowplows keeping our runway clear,
Word
> was we would be able to fly tomorrow, the 23rd. We just kept looking at
the sky
> and thinking of the Battered *******s of Bastogne. We were so close we
could
> almost touch them, but there was nothing we could do until the sky
cleared. We
> all hoped for a better tomorrow. Iron men in harms way.

I watched a documentary recently on the 1st Canadian Paras. They had trained
with the 101st in the US(and with the British as well).

They were plugged into the north side of the line at Bastogne, and one of
the interviewed vets complained that they wanted to stage a breakthrough to
Bastogne as they were about 15 miles north, but were told that Patton would
have the honours. As brave as that desire was to help their friends, it was
possibly much wiser to let an amoured division breakthrough than to push a
lightly armed para division in, one that didn't have proper winter
equipment, armour or sufficient arty(gee that sounds like the Canadian armed
forces of today).

James Linn

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
>From: "James Linn"
>Date: 12/22/03 7:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> The 101st was almost out of food and 30 cal. ammo for their Garands. Many
>froze
>> to death in their foxholes overnight. It was still snowing. But they never
>> allowed the Germans to take the critical Batogne crossroads. In the
>meantime at
>> our field we had all our 6x6 with snowplows keeping our runway clear,
>Word
>> was we would be able to fly tomorrow, the 23rd. We just kept looking at
>the sky
>> and thinking of the Battered *******s of Bastogne. We were so close we
>could
>> almost touch them, but there was nothing we could do until the sky
>cleared. We
>> all hoped for a better tomorrow. Iron men in harms way.
>
>I watched a documentary recently on the 1st Canadian Paras. They had trained
>with the 101st in the US(and with the British as well).
>
>They were plugged into the north side of the line at Bastogne, and one of
>the interviewed vets complained that they wanted to stage a breakthrough to
>Bastogne as they were about 15 miles north, but were told that Patton would
>have the honours. As brave as that desire was to help their friends, it was
>possibly much wiser to let an amoured division breakthrough than to push a
>lightly armed para division in, one that didn't have proper winter
>equipment, armour or sufficient arty(gee that sounds like the Canadian armed
>forces of today).
>
>James Linn
>
>

Sound like if the 1st Paras had broken through they would just be trapped in
Bastogne with the 101st. The better part of valor. (sigh)

Regards,


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Tarver Engineering]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
> >From: "James Linn"
> >Date: 12/22/03 7:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> The 101st was almost out of food and 30 cal. ammo for their Garands.
Many
> >froze
> >> to death in their foxholes overnight. It was still snowing. But they
never
> >> allowed the Germans to take the critical Batogne crossroads. In the
> >meantime at
> >> our field we had all our 6x6 with snowplows keeping our runway clear,
> >Word
> >> was we would be able to fly tomorrow, the 23rd. We just kept looking at
> >the sky
> >> and thinking of the Battered *******s of Bastogne. We were so close we
> >could
> >> almost touch them, but there was nothing we could do until the sky
> >cleared. We
> >> all hoped for a better tomorrow. Iron men in harms way.
> >
> >I watched a documentary recently on the 1st Canadian Paras. They had
trained
> >with the 101st in the US(and with the British as well).
> >
> >They were plugged into the north side of the line at Bastogne, and one of
> >the interviewed vets complained that they wanted to stage a breakthrough
to
> >Bastogne as they were about 15 miles north, but were told that Patton
would
> >have the honours. As brave as that desire was to help their friends, it
was
> >possibly much wiser to let an amoured division breakthrough than to push
a
> >lightly armed para division in, one that didn't have proper winter
> >equipment, armour or sufficient arty(gee that sounds like the Canadian
armed
> >forces of today).

> Sound like if the 1st Paras had broken through they would just be trapped
in
> Bastogne with the 101st. The better part of valor. (sigh)

It was the Germans who were trapped at Bastogne.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 12/22/03 9:07 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
>> >From: "James Linn"
>> >Date: 12/22/03 7:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >
>> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> The 101st was almost out of food and 30 cal. ammo for their Garands.
>Many
>> >froze
>> >> to death in their foxholes overnight. It was still snowing. But they
>never
>> >> allowed the Germans to take the critical Batogne crossroads. In the
>> >meantime at
>> >> our field we had all our 6x6 with snowplows keeping our runway clear,
>> >Word
>> >> was we would be able to fly tomorrow, the 23rd. We just kept looking at
>> >the sky
>> >> and thinking of the Battered *******s of Bastogne. We were so close we
>> >could
>> >> almost touch them, but there was nothing we could do until the sky
>> >cleared. We
>> >> all hoped for a better tomorrow. Iron men in harms way.
>> >
>> >I watched a documentary recently on the 1st Canadian Paras. They had
>trained
>> >with the 101st in the US(and with the British as well).
>> >
>> >They were plugged into the north side of the line at Bastogne, and one of
>> >the interviewed vets complained that they wanted to stage a breakthrough
>to
>> >Bastogne as they were about 15 miles north, but were told that Patton
>would
>> >have the honours. As brave as that desire was to help their friends, it
>was
>> >possibly much wiser to let an amoured division breakthrough than to push
>a
>> >lightly armed para division in, one that didn't have proper winter
>> >equipment, armour or sufficient arty(gee that sounds like the Canadian
>armed
>> >forces of today).
>
>> Sound like if the 1st Paras had broken through they would just be trapped
>in
>> Bastogne with the 101st. The better part of valor. (sigh)
>
>It was the Germans who were trapped at Bastogne.
>
>


A member of the 101st was quoted as saying, ": Th e Germans have us surrounded.
Poor *******s.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Bjørnar Bolsøy]

(ArtKramr) wrote in
:
>>Subject: Re: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
>>From: "James Linn"
>>Date: 12/22/03 7:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >

>>I watched a documentary recently on the 1st Canadian Paras. They
>>had trained with the 101st in the US(and with the British as
>>well).
>>
>>They were plugged into the north side of the line at Bastogne,
>>and one of the interviewed vets complained that they wanted to
>>stage a breakthrough to Bastogne as they were about 15 miles
>>north, but were told that Patton would have the honours. As
>>brave as that desire was to help their friends, it was possibly
>>much wiser to let an amoured division breakthrough than to push
>>a lightly armed para division in, one that didn't have proper
>>winter equipment, armour or sufficient arty(gee that sounds like
>>the Canadian armed forces of today).
>>
>>James Linn
>>
>>
>
> Sound like if the 1st Paras had broken through they would just
> be trapped in Bastogne with the 101st. The better part of valor.
> (sigh)
>
> Regards,

What kind of temperature were those guys facing, and what type
of winter clothing did they have?


Regards...

[Tarver Engineering]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >Date: 12/22/03 9:07 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >Subject: Re: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
> >> >From: "James Linn"
> >> >Date: 12/22/03 7:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> The 101st was almost out of food and 30 cal. ammo for their Garands.
> >Many
> >> >froze
> >> >> to death in their foxholes overnight. It was still snowing. But they
> >never
> >> >> allowed the Germans to take the critical Batogne crossroads. In the
> >> >meantime at
> >> >> our field we had all our 6x6 with snowplows keeping our runway
clear,
> >> >Word
> >> >> was we would be able to fly tomorrow, the 23rd. We just kept looking
at
> >> >the sky
> >> >> and thinking of the Battered *******s of Bastogne. We were so close
we
> >> >could
> >> >> almost touch them, but there was nothing we could do until the sky
> >> >cleared. We
> >> >> all hoped for a better tomorrow. Iron men in harms way.
> >> >
> >> >I watched a documentary recently on the 1st Canadian Paras. They had
> >trained
> >> >with the 101st in the US(and with the British as well).
> >> >
> >> >They were plugged into the north side of the line at Bastogne, and one
of
> >> >the interviewed vets complained that they wanted to stage a
breakthrough
> >to
> >> >Bastogne as they were about 15 miles north, but were told that Patton
> >would
> >> >have the honours. As brave as that desire was to help their friends,
it
> >was
> >> >possibly much wiser to let an amoured division breakthrough than to
push
> >a
> >> >lightly armed para division in, one that didn't have proper winter
> >> >equipment, armour or sufficient arty(gee that sounds like the Canadian
> >armed
> >> >forces of today).
> >
> >> Sound like if the 1st Paras had broken through they would just be
trapped
> >in
> >> Bastogne with the 101st. The better part of valor. (sigh)
> >
> >It was the Germans who were trapped at Bastogne.

> A member of the 101st was quoted as saying, ": Th e Germans have us
surrounded.
> Poor *******s.

My father claims the heaviest fighting he was involved with was the ten days
after the the 101st was supposedly relieved. The 82nd was there so the
Germans could surrender, as FDR had issued a change of ROE to the 101st; he
was not pleased with the Germans murdering prisoners.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
>From: "Bjørnar Bolsøy"
>Date: 12/22/03 9:38 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote in
:
>>>Subject: Re: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
>>>From: "James Linn"
>>>Date: 12/22/03 7:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>>Message-id: >
>
>>>I watched a documentary recently on the 1st Canadian Paras. They
>>>had trained with the 101st in the US(and with the British as
>>>well).
>>>
>>>They were plugged into the north side of the line at Bastogne,
>>>and one of the interviewed vets complained that they wanted to
>>>stage a breakthrough to Bastogne as they were about 15 miles
>>>north, but were told that Patton would have the honours. As
>>>brave as that desire was to help their friends, it was possibly
>>>much wiser to let an amoured division breakthrough than to push
>>>a lightly armed para division in, one that didn't have proper
>>>winter equipment, armour or sufficient arty(gee that sounds like
>>>the Canadian armed forces of today).
>>>
>>>James Linn
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Sound like if the 1st Paras had broken through they would just
>> be trapped in Bastogne with the 101st. The better part of valor.
>> (sigh)
>>
>> Regards,
>
> What kind of temperature were those guys facing, and what type
> of winter clothing did they have?
>
>
> Regards...


Temps were well below freezing with high winds and falling snow. Their shoes
were worn out and needed replacing and many lacked overcoats and froze to death
overnight in their foxholes. The only food was K rations and not much of that.
They were now very low on ammo for their rifles. Unless they were re-supplied
fast, the end would be near.The sky was socked in and nothing could fly. Their
situation was desparate. But surrender was never a consideration. Who knows how
things would have turned out if there was a lesser unit than the 101st. in
Bastogne. Iron men in harms way.

Regards,
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 12/22/03 9:46 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
>> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
>> >Date: 12/22/03 9:07 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >
>> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> >Subject: Re: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
>> >> >From: "James Linn"
>> >> >Date: 12/22/03 7:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >> >Message-id: >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> >> The 101st was almost out of food and 30 cal. ammo for their Garands.
>> >Many
>> >> >froze
>> >> >> to death in their foxholes overnight. It was still snowing. But they
>> >never
>> >> >> allowed the Germans to take the critical Batogne crossroads. In the
>> >> >meantime at
>> >> >> our field we had all our 6x6 with snowplows keeping our runway
>clear,
>> >> >Word
>> >> >> was we would be able to fly tomorrow, the 23rd. We just kept looking
>at
>> >> >the sky
>> >> >> and thinking of the Battered *******s of Bastogne. We were so close
>we
>> >> >could
>> >> >> almost touch them, but there was nothing we could do until the sky
>> >> >cleared. We
>> >> >> all hoped for a better tomorrow. Iron men in harms way.
>> >> >
>> >> >I watched a documentary recently on the 1st Canadian Paras. They had
>> >trained
>> >> >with the 101st in the US(and with the British as well).
>> >> >
>> >> >They were plugged into the north side of the line at Bastogne, and one
>of
>> >> >the interviewed vets complained that they wanted to stage a
>breakthrough
>> >to
>> >> >Bastogne as they were about 15 miles north, but were told that Patton
>> >would
>> >> >have the honours. As brave as that desire was to help their friends,
>it
>> >was
>> >> >possibly much wiser to let an amoured division breakthrough than to
>push
>> >a
>> >> >lightly armed para division in, one that didn't have proper winter
>> >> >equipment, armour or sufficient arty(gee that sounds like the Canadian
>> >armed
>> >> >forces of today).
>> >
>> >> Sound like if the 1st Paras had broken through they would just be
>trapped
>> >in
>> >> Bastogne with the 101st. The better part of valor. (sigh)
>> >
>> >It was the Germans who were trapped at Bastogne.
>
>> A member of the 101st was quoted as saying, ": Th e Germans have us
>surrounded.
>> Poor *******s.
>
>My father claims the heaviest fighting he was involved with was the ten days
>after the the 101st was supposedly relieved. The 82nd was there so the
>Germans could surrender, as FDR had issued a change of ROE to the 101st; he
>was not pleased with the Germans murdering prisoners.
>
>


Remember the Malmedy massacre.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Joe Osman]

"Bjørnar Bolsøy" wrote:
>
> (ArtKramr) wrote in
> :
> >>Subject: Re: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
> >>From: "James Linn"
> >>Date: 12/22/03 7:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >>Message-id: >
>
> >>I watched a documentary recently on the 1st Canadian Paras. They
> >>had trained with the 101st in the US(and with the British as
> >>well).
> >>
> >>They were plugged into the north side of the line at Bastogne,
> >>and one of the interviewed vets complained that they wanted to
> >>stage a breakthrough to Bastogne as they were about 15 miles
> >>north, but were told that Patton would have the honours. As
> >>brave as that desire was to help their friends, it was possibly
> >>much wiser to let an amoured division breakthrough than to push
> >>a lightly armed para division in, one that didn't have proper
> >>winter equipment, armour or sufficient arty(gee that sounds like
> >>the Canadian armed forces of today).
> >>
> >>James Linn
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Sound like if the 1st Paras had broken through they would just
> > be trapped in Bastogne with the 101st. The better part of valor.
> > (sigh)
> >
> > Regards,
>
> What kind of temperature were those guys facing, and what type
> of winter clothing did they have?
>
> Regards...


+
The winter of 1944 was the worst in 50 years in Europe.

Joe


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[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
>From: Joe Osman
>Date: 12/22/03 11:31 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"Bjørnar Bolsøy" wrote:
>>
>> (ArtKramr) wrote in
>> :
>> >>Subject: Re: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
>> >>From: "James Linn"
>> >>Date: 12/22/03 7:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >>Message-id: >
>>
>> >>I watched a documentary recently on the 1st Canadian Paras. They
>> >>had trained with the 101st in the US(and with the British as
>> >>well).
>> >>
>> >>They were plugged into the north side of the line at Bastogne,
>> >>and one of the interviewed vets complained that they wanted to
>> >>stage a breakthrough to Bastogne as they were about 15 miles
>> >>north, but were told that Patton would have the honours. As
>> >>brave as that desire was to help their friends, it was possibly
>> >>much wiser to let an amoured division breakthrough than to push
>> >>a lightly armed para division in, one that didn't have proper
>> >>winter equipment, armour or sufficient arty(gee that sounds like
>> >>the Canadian armed forces of today).
>> >>
>> >>James Linn
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > Sound like if the 1st Paras had broken through they would just
>> > be trapped in Bastogne with the 101st. The better part of valor.
>> > (sigh)
>> >
>> > Regards,
>>
>> What kind of temperature were those guys facing, and what type
>> of winter clothing did they have?
>>
>> Regards...
>
>
>+
>The winter of 1944 was the worst in 50 years in Europe.
>
>Joe
>

Exactly. Iwas never so cold in my life and shiver when I just think of it.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Tarver Engineering]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
> >From: Joe Osman
> >Date: 12/22/03 11:31 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >"Bjørnar Bolsøy" wrote:
> >>
> >> (ArtKramr) wrote in
> >> :
> >> >>Subject: Re: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
> >> >>From: "James Linn"
> >> >>Date: 12/22/03 7:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >>Message-id: >
> >>
> >> >>I watched a documentary recently on the 1st Canadian Paras. They
> >> >>had trained with the 101st in the US(and with the British as
> >> >>well).
> >> >>
> >> >>They were plugged into the north side of the line at Bastogne,
> >> >>and one of the interviewed vets complained that they wanted to
> >> >>stage a breakthrough to Bastogne as they were about 15 miles
> >> >>north, but were told that Patton would have the honours. As
> >> >>brave as that desire was to help their friends, it was possibly
> >> >>much wiser to let an amoured division breakthrough than to push
> >> >>a lightly armed para division in, one that didn't have proper
> >> >>winter equipment, armour or sufficient arty(gee that sounds like
> >> >>the Canadian armed forces of today).
> >> >>
> >> >>James Linn
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Sound like if the 1st Paras had broken through they would just
> >> > be trapped in Bastogne with the 101st. The better part of valor.
> >> > (sigh)
> >> >
> >> > Regards,
> >>
> >> What kind of temperature were those guys facing, and what type
> >> of winter clothing did they have?
> >>
> >> Regards...
> >
> >
> >+
> >The winter of 1944 was the worst in 50 years in Europe.
> >
> >Joe
> >
>
> Exactly. Iwas never so cold in my life and shiver when I just think of
it.

The 101st needed supplies, to do more than attrit. It was time to close the
door.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 12/22/03 1:13 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
>> >From: Joe Osman
>> >Date: 12/22/03 11:31 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >"Bjørnar Bolsøy" wrote:
>> >>
>> >> (ArtKramr) wrote in
>> >> :
>> >> >>Subject: Re: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
>> >> >>From: "James Linn"
>> >> >>Date: 12/22/03 7:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >> >>Message-id: >
>> >>
>> >> >>I watched a documentary recently on the 1st Canadian Paras. They
>> >> >>had trained with the 101st in the US(and with the British as
>> >> >>well).
>> >> >>
>> >> >>They were plugged into the north side of the line at Bastogne,
>> >> >>and one of the interviewed vets complained that they wanted to
>> >> >>stage a breakthrough to Bastogne as they were about 15 miles
>> >> >>north, but were told that Patton would have the honours. As
>> >> >>brave as that desire was to help their friends, it was possibly
>> >> >>much wiser to let an amoured division breakthrough than to push
>> >> >>a lightly armed para division in, one that didn't have proper
>> >> >>winter equipment, armour or sufficient arty(gee that sounds like
>> >> >>the Canadian armed forces of today).
>> >> >>
>> >> >>James Linn
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > Sound like if the 1st Paras had broken through they would just
>> >> > be trapped in Bastogne with the 101st. The better part of valor.
>> >> > (sigh)
>> >> >
>> >> > Regards,
>> >>
>> >> What kind of temperature were those guys facing, and what type
>> >> of winter clothing did they have?
>> >>
>> >> Regards...
>> >
>> >
>> >+
>> >The winter of 1944 was the worst in 50 years in Europe.
>> >
>> >Joe
>> >
>>
>> Exactly. Iwas never so cold in my life and shiver when I just think of
>it.
>
>The 101st needed supplies, to do more than attrit. It was time to close the
>door.
>
>

Tomorrow

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[The Enlightenment]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >Subject: Re: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
> > >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> > >Date: 12/22/03 9:07 AM Pacific Standard Time
> > >Message-id: >
> > >
> > >
> > >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >> >Subject: Re: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
> > >> >From: "James Linn"
> > >> >Date: 12/22/03 7:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
> > >> >Message-id: >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> > >> ...
> > >> >> The 101st was almost out of food and 30 cal. ammo for their
Garands.
> > >Many
> > >> >froze
> > >> >> to death in their foxholes overnight. It was still snowing. But
they
> > >never
> > >> >> allowed the Germans to take the critical Batogne crossroads. In
the
> > >> >meantime at
> > >> >> our field we had all our 6x6 with snowplows keeping our runway
> clear,
> > >> >Word
> > >> >> was we would be able to fly tomorrow, the 23rd. We just kept
looking
> at
> > >> >the sky
> > >> >> and thinking of the Battered *******s of Bastogne. We were so
close
> we
> > >> >could
> > >> >> almost touch them, but there was nothing we could do until the sky
> > >> >cleared. We
> > >> >> all hoped for a better tomorrow. Iron men in harms way.
> > >> >
> > >> >I watched a documentary recently on the 1st Canadian Paras. They had
> > >trained
> > >> >with the 101st in the US(and with the British as well).
> > >> >
> > >> >They were plugged into the north side of the line at Bastogne, and
one
> of
> > >> >the interviewed vets complained that they wanted to stage a
> breakthrough
> > >to
> > >> >Bastogne as they were about 15 miles north, but were told that
Patton
> > >would
> > >> >have the honours. As brave as that desire was to help their friends,
> it
> > >was
> > >> >possibly much wiser to let an amoured division breakthrough than to
> push
> > >a
> > >> >lightly armed para division in, one that didn't have proper winter
> > >> >equipment, armour or sufficient arty(gee that sounds like the
Canadian
> > >armed
> > >> >forces of today).
> > >
> > >> Sound like if the 1st Paras had broken through they would just be
> trapped
> > >in
> > >> Bastogne with the 101st. The better part of valor. (sigh)
> > >
> > >It was the Germans who were trapped at Bastogne.
>
> > A member of the 101st was quoted as saying, ": Th e Germans have us
> surrounded.
> > Poor *******s.
>
> My father claims the heaviest fighting he was involved with was the ten
days
> after the the 101st was supposedly relieved. The 82nd was there so the
> Germans could surrender, as FDR had issued a change of ROE to the 101st;
he
> was not pleased with the Germans murdering prisoners.

Never happened that way. You refer to the Malmedy tragedy? It was a
small breakout attempt by 2 prisoners that turned into a few shots that
became a panic breakout that cost about 18 lives. It eventualy became a
propaganda lie that it seems to me is passionatly cherished perhaps because
it serves a purpose. An almost completely fabricated version of it is
endlessly and somewhat disgracefullty repeated without footnote in the Movie
"The battle for the Bulge". It Seems to have been an excuse for justifying
the murdering of the excedingly young conscipt Germans trying to surrender
and particularly Waffen SS. What little "evidence" that exists was
discredited as it came via the beating to a pulp of 18 German prisoners
testicles after the war.

Having personaly spoken to Austrian Army POWs who were held in open pens in
the snow for weeks and dieing from exposure and had to suffer several
murders by pot shots a night I know that elements of the US military can be
very savage. To be fair it seems to have been mainly Polish American units
that did this.



Another version is this:



The "Malmedy Massacre" is argued by others to be a hoax invented by wartime
sensation-mongers. During the Battle of the Bulge, a unit of the 1st Panzer
Division killed over 80 GIs during a fire fight. The American dead were laid
out in rows in the snow, but the Germans were forced to withdraw from
Malmedy before the dead soldiers were buried. Allied propagandists blew this
event up into a major atrocity story, claiming that the Americans had been
taken prisoner and then lined up and shot. Several Germans were tried after
the war for their participation in this war crime.

Either way, Malmedy was not characteristic of the Germans in the west.

[Tarver Engineering]

"The Enlightenment" > wrote in message
...

<snip>
> The "Malmedy Massacre" is argued by others to be a hoax invented by
wartime
> sensation-mongers. During the Battle of the Bulge, a unit of the 1st
Panzer
> Division killed over 80 GIs during a fire fight. The American dead were
laid
> out in rows in the snow, but the Germans were forced to withdraw from
> Malmedy before the dead soldiers were buried. Allied propagandists blew
this
> event up into a major atrocity story, claiming that the Americans had been
> taken prisoner and then lined up and shot. Several Germans were tried
after
> the war for their participation in this war crime.

Found guilty, then?

A rather poor decision to strand 2 SS Panzer divisions on the wrong side of
enemy lines out of fuel, especially when having murdered Americans on the
way West.

[B2431]

>From: "The Enlightenment"
>
>Never happened that way. You refer to the Malmedy tragedy? It was a
>small breakout attempt by 2 prisoners that turned into a few shots that
>became a panic breakout that cost about 18 lives. It eventualy became a
>propaganda lie that it seems to me is passionatly cherished perhaps because
>it serves a purpose. An almost completely fabricated version of it is
>endlessly and somewhat disgracefullty repeated without footnote in the Movie
>"The battle for the Bulge". It Seems to have been an excuse for justifying
>the murdering of the excedingly young conscipt Germans trying to surrender
>and particularly Waffen SS. What little "evidence" that exists was
>discredited as it came via the beating to a pulp of 18 German prisoners
>testicles after the war.
>
>Having personaly spoken to Austrian Army POWs who were held in open pens in
>the snow for weeks and dieing from exposure and had to suffer several
>murders by pot shots a night I know that elements of the US military can be
>very savage. To be fair it seems to have been mainly Polish American units
>that did this.

>
>Another version is this:

>
>The "Malmedy Massacre" is argued by others to be a hoax invented by wartime
>sensation-mongers. During the Battle of the Bulge, a unit of the 1st Panzer
>Division killed over 80 GIs during a fire fight. The American dead were laid
>out in rows in the snow, but the Germans were forced to withdraw from
>Malmedy before the dead soldiers were buried. Allied propagandists blew this
>event up into a major atrocity story, claiming that the Americans had been
>taken prisoner and then lined up and shot. Several Germans were tried after
>the war for their participation in this war crime.
>

I will wait patiently while you provide verifiable sources for either of those
fantasies.

The photographs I have seen show a lot more than 18 dead.

>Either way, Malmedy was not characteristic of the Germans in the west.
>

And Oradeur wasn't either, I suppose? That was a small town in France where
your beloved SS shot all the men they could find and locked all the women and
children they could find in the church, then setting fire to it. I guess
burning women and children to death wasn't their way in the west either.

Dan, U. S. Air force, retired

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
>From: (B2431)
>Date: 12/22/03 8:43 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>From: "The Enlightenment"
>>
>>Never happened that way. You refer to the Malmedy tragedy? It was a
>>small breakout attempt by 2 prisoners that turned into a few shots that
>>became a panic breakout that cost about 18 lives. It eventualy became a
>>propaganda lie that it seems to me is passionatly cherished perhaps because
>>it serves a purpose. An almost completely fabricated version of it is
>>endlessly and somewhat disgracefullty repeated without footnote in the Movie
>>"The battle for the Bulge". It Seems to have been an excuse for justifying
>>the murdering of the excedingly young conscipt Germans trying to surrender
>>and particularly Waffen SS. What little "evidence" that exists was
>>discredited as it came via the beating to a pulp of 18 German prisoners
>>testicles after the war.
>>
>>Having personaly spoken to Austrian Army POWs who were held in open pens in
>>the snow for weeks and dieing from exposure and had to suffer several
>>murders by pot shots a night I know that elements of the US military can be
>>very savage. To be fair it seems to have been mainly Polish American units
>>that did this.
>
>>
>>Another version is this:
>
>>
>>The "Malmedy Massacre" is argued by others to be a hoax invented by wartime
>>sensation-mongers. During the Battle of the Bulge, a unit of the 1st Panzer
>>Division killed over 80 GIs during a fire fight. The American dead were laid
>>out in rows in the snow, but the Germans were forced to withdraw from
>>Malmedy before the dead soldiers were buried. Allied propagandists blew this
>>event up into a major atrocity story, claiming that the Americans had been
>>taken prisoner and then lined up and shot. Several Germans were tried after
>>the war for their participation in this war crime.
>>
>
>I will wait patiently while you provide verifiable sources for either of
>those
>fantasies.
>
>The photographs I have seen show a lot more than 18 dead.
>
>>Either way, Malmedy was not characteristic of the Germans in the west.
>>
>
>And Oradeur wasn't either, I suppose? That was a small town in France where
>your beloved SS shot all the men they could find and locked all the women and
>children they could find in the church, then setting fire to it. I guess
>burning women and children to death wasn't their way in the west either.
>
>Dan, U. S. Air force, retired


No amount of revisionism will explain away the Malmedy Massacre. It will live
in the history of WW II forever.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Keith Willshaw]

"The Enlightenment" > wrote in message
...
>

>
> Having personaly spoken to Austrian Army POWs who were held in open pens
in
> the snow for weeks and dieing from exposure and had to suffer several
> murders by pot shots a night I know that elements of the US military can
be
> very savage. To be fair it seems to have been mainly Polish American
units
> that did this.
>
>

So you have spoken to Austrian POW's who died from exposure
and were them murdered several times by being shot at night

An interesting claim

>
> Another version is this:
>
>
>
> The "Malmedy Massacre" is argued by others to be a hoax invented by
wartime
> sensation-mongers. During the Battle of the Bulge, a unit of the 1st
Panzer
> Division killed over 80 GIs during a fire fight. The American dead were
laid
> out in rows in the snow, but the Germans were forced to withdraw from
> Malmedy before the dead soldiers were buried. Allied propagandists blew
this
> event up into a major atrocity story, claiming that the Americans had been
> taken prisoner and then lined up and shot. Several Germans were tried
after
> the war for their participation in this war crime.
>


There was no fire fight, the soldiers involved werent front line
infantry they were members of a fieeld artillery observation
battallion being transported by truck when they were surprised
by 1st SS Panzer . What happened next is simply that they adopted
their usual method of dealing with POW's as developed on the
eastern front and herded them into a field and shot them

> Either way, Malmedy was not characteristic of the Germans in the west.
>

No thats true, it was however characteristic of the manner 1st SS Panzer
behaved and proved to be a great mistake. Word got around both in
the US army and XXX corps that you couldnt surrender to these people.

Keith

[The Enlightenment]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message >...
> "The Enlightenment" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
>
> >
> > Having personaly spoken to Austrian Army POWs who were held in open pens
> in
> > the snow for weeks and dieing from exposure and had to suffer several
> > murders by pot shots a night I know that elements of the US military can
> be
> > very savage. To be fair it seems to have been mainly Polish American
> units
> > that did this.
> >
> >
>
> So you have spoken to Austrian POW's who died from exposure
> and were them murdered several times by being shot at night
>
> An interesting claim
>


Sarcasm does not become you.

Just before the end of the second world war and After the war millions
of Wehrmacht etc prisoners were held by the allies. I have spoken to
a pair of these prisoners, in this case from Austria. Both men are
now deceased, having died last 2 years in Australia.

These men were forced to endure weeks in open snow with minimal food.
Many of their collegues died of hunger and exposure.

One of the men descrbed to me how he thought he died and was having
some kind of near death experience when he was brought back by his
friends slapping him around with snow.

For about 2 weeks the GIs guards would shoot randomly into the masses
of prisoners and thereby kill several of them.

At this point the Gurads must have felt completely impune to any sort
of punishment.

The war crimes, in the sense of specific and gross viloations of the
Geneva convention, of the allies have to my recollection never been
spoken of. There is not much to be gained.


> >
> > Another version is this:
> >
> >
> >
> > The "Malmedy Massacre" is argued by others to be a hoax invented by
> wartime
> > sensation-mongers. During the Battle of the Bulge, a unit of the 1st
> Panzer
> > Division killed over 80 GIs during a fire fight. The American dead were
> laid
> > out in rows in the snow, but the Germans were forced to withdraw from
> > Malmedy before the dead soldiers were buried. Allied propagandists blew
> this
> > event up into a major atrocity story, claiming that the Americans had been
> > taken prisoner and then lined up and shot. Several Germans were tried
> after
> > the war for their participation in this war crime.
> >
>
>
> There was no fire fight, the soldiers involved werent front line
> infantry they were members of a fieeld artillery observation
> battallion being transported by truck when they were surprised
> by 1st SS Panzer . What happened next is simply that they adopted
> their usual method of dealing with POW's as developed on the
> eastern front and herded them into a field and shot them
>
> > Either way, Malmedy was not characteristic of the Germans in the west.
> >
>
> No thats true, it was however characteristic of the manner 1st SS Panzer
> behaved and proved to be a great mistake. Word got around both in
> the US army and XXX corps that you couldnt surrender to these people.
>
> Keith

Word might have got around but it was as I understand it a false
rumour. It turns out to be incorrect. As I recall from an british
military history magazine I used to read as a child called "War
Montly" the issue that dealt with the battle of the bulge this was
dismissed however the Americans on the basis of the rumour did not
accept German prisoners.

There is now a huge body of evidence that shows that a deliberate
massacre was highly improbable.

[The Enlightenment]

(B2431) wrote in message >...
> >From: "The Enlightenment"
> >
> >Never happened that way. You refer to the Malmedy tragedy? It was a
> >small breakout attempt by 2 prisoners that turned into a few shots that
> >became a panic breakout that cost about 18 lives. It eventualy became a
> >propaganda lie that it seems to me is passionatly cherished perhaps because
> >it serves a purpose. An almost completely fabricated version of it is
> >endlessly and somewhat disgracefullty repeated without footnote in the Movie
> >"The battle for the Bulge". It Seems to have been an excuse for justifying
> >the murdering of the excedingly young conscipt Germans trying to surrender
> >and particularly Waffen SS. What little "evidence" that exists was
> >discredited as it came via the beating to a pulp of 18 German prisoners
> >testicles after the war.
> >
> >Having personaly spoken to Austrian Army POWs who were held in open pens in
> >the snow for weeks and dieing from exposure and had to suffer several
> >murders by pot shots a night I know that elements of the US military can be
> >very savage. To be fair it seems to have been mainly Polish American units
> >that did this.
>
> >
> >Another version is this:
>
> >
> >The "Malmedy Massacre" is argued by others to be a hoax invented by wartime
> >sensation-mongers. During the Battle of the Bulge, a unit of the 1st Panzer
> >Division killed over 80 GIs during a fire fight. The American dead were laid
> >out in rows in the snow, but the Germans were forced to withdraw from
> >Malmedy before the dead soldiers were buried. Allied propagandists blew this
> >event up into a major atrocity story, claiming that the Americans had been
> >taken prisoner and then lined up and shot. Several Germans were tried after
> >the war for their participation in this war crime.
> >
>
> I will wait patiently while you provide verifiable sources for either of those
> fantasies.

I am on holidays at the momment and not anywhere near my materials.
However if you try Karl Poppers method of testing the orthodoxy by
falsifying it you can find lots of very strong arguments against a
deliberate massacre on the web yourself. They were so strong that the
trial had to be abandoned.


>
> The photographs I have seen show a lot more than 18 dead.
>
> >Either way, Malmedy was not characteristic of the Germans in the west.
> >
>
> And Oradeur wasn't either, I suppose?

No that's right. There is a huge amount of inconsistancy in the case
against the Germans. You can find quite a lot of this on the internet
and the case was eventualy dropped. A likely explanation was a
Marquis munitions store under the church blew up.




That was a small town in France where
> your beloved SS shot all the men they could find and locked all the women and
> children they could find in the church, then setting fire to it. I guess
> burning women and children to death wasn't their way in the west either.

All very terrible but it isn't true: not in that form anyway.

The truth is hard to accept for all sides sometimes. Humans by nature
use lies and exaggeration to villify others and thus to generate
cohesive action. This is so inportant we happily decieve even
ourselves by not inquiring too deeply and readily going along with
convenient "atrocities". The cohesive actiona is the objective and
not the truth so dissidents who try to expose the truth are not always
liked: they can damage the myths that unify us.

Neverthelss living a history that is not a truth is excedingly
dangerous.



>
> Dan, U. S. Air force, retired

[B2431]

>From: (The Enlightenment)
>Date: 12/23/2003 11:20 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
(B2431) wrote in message
>...
>> >From: "The Enlightenment"
>> >
>> >Never happened that way. You refer to the Malmedy tragedy? It was a
>> >small breakout attempt by 2 prisoners that turned into a few shots that
>> >became a panic breakout that cost about 18 lives. It eventualy became a
>> >propaganda lie that it seems to me is passionatly cherished perhaps
>because
>> >it serves a purpose. An almost completely fabricated version of it is
>> >endlessly and somewhat disgracefullty repeated without footnote in the
>Movie
>> >"The battle for the Bulge". It Seems to have been an excuse for
>justifying
>> >the murdering of the excedingly young conscipt Germans trying to surrender

Those things happened on an individual basis by all sides. The age of the
conscript had no bearing. He was in an enemy uniform.

>> >and particularly Waffen SS. What little "evidence" that exists was
>> >discredited as it came via the beating to a pulp of 18 German prisoners
>> >testicles after the war.
>> >
>> >Having personaly spoken to Austrian Army POWs who were held in open pens
>in
>> >the snow for weeks and dieing from exposure and had to suffer several
>> >murders by pot shots a night I know that elements of the US military can
>be
>> >very savage. To be fair it seems to have been mainly Polish American
>units
>> >that did this.
>>
>> >
>> >Another version is this:
>>
>> >
>> >The "Malmedy Massacre" is argued by others to be a hoax invented by
>wartime
>> >sensation-mongers. During the Battle of the Bulge, a unit of the 1st
>Panzer
>> >Division killed over 80 GIs during a fire fight. The American dead were
>laid
>> >out in rows in the snow, but the Germans were forced to withdraw from
>> >Malmedy before the dead soldiers were buried. Allied propagandists blew
>this
>> >event up into a major atrocity story, claiming that the Americans had been
>> >taken prisoner and then lined up and shot. Several Germans were tried
>after
>> >the war for their participation in this war crime.
>> >
>>
>> I will wait patiently while you provide verifiable sources for either of
>those
>> fantasies.
>
>I am on holidays at the momment and not anywhere near my materials.
>However if you try Karl Poppers method of testing the orthodoxy by
>falsifying it you can find lots of very strong arguments against a
>deliberate massacre on the web yourself. They were so strong that the
>trial had to be abandoned.
>
>
>>
>> The photographs I have seen show a lot more than 18 dead.
>>
>> >Either way, Malmedy was not characteristic of the Germans in the west.

Not of the Wermacht, maybe, but your beloved 2nd Waffen SS DID. How about
Maise? How about Putten? As much as you adore your Nazis you can't rewrite
their criminal actions.

>>
>> And Oradeur wasn't either, I suppose?
>
>No that's right. There is a huge amount of inconsistancy in the case
>against the Germans. You can find quite a lot of this on the internet
>and the case was eventualy dropped. A likely explanation was a
>Marquis munitions store under the church blew up.
>
Ok, now explain how the church is mostly intact including the floor. Explain
how many buildings showed evidence of fires being started inside. I suppose the
citizens of Oradour killed themselves?

The Maquis were not active in all parts of France. Were they even there?

>
>That was a small town in France where
>> your beloved SS shot all the men they could find and locked all the women
>and
>> children they could find in the church, then setting fire to it. I guess
>> burning women and children to death wasn't their way in the west either.
>
>All very terrible but it isn't true: not in that form anyway.
>
>The truth is hard to accept for all sides sometimes. Humans by nature
>use lies and exaggeration to villify others and thus to generate
>cohesive action. This is so inportant we happily decieve even
>ourselves by not inquiring too deeply and readily going along with
>convenient "atrocities". The cohesive actiona is the objective and
>not the truth so dissidents who try to expose the truth are not always
>liked: they can damage the myths that unify us.
>
>Neverthelss living a history that is not a truth is excedingly
>dangerous.
>

Amazing, next you will tell us how 6 million Jews and 6 million non Jews were
not murdered in Baba Yar, Sobibor, Madainek, Auschwitz, Dachau etc? You will
then tell us those numbers are exaggerations despite all the documents the Nazi
pigs kept and fell into Allied hands?

>>
Dan, U. S. Air force, retired

[Greg Hennessy]

On 23 Dec 2003 21:06:22 -0800, (The Enlightenment)
wrote:


>> So you have spoken to Austrian POW's who died from exposure
>> and were them murdered several times by being shot at night
>>
>> An interesting claim
>>
>
>
>Sarcasm does not become you.
>

In the case of a proven liar and a neo nazi revisionist its entirely
justified.


greg

--
Once you try my burger baby,you'll grow a new thyroid gland.
I said just eat my burger, baby,make you smart as Charlie Chan.
You say the hot sauce can't be beat. Sit back and open wide.

[B2431]

>From: Greg Hennessy
>Date: 12/24/2003 4:47 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On 23 Dec 2003 21:06:22 -0800, (The Enlightenment)
>wrote:
>
>
>>> So you have spoken to Austrian POW's who died from exposure
>>> and were them murdered several times by being shot at night
>>>
>>> An interesting claim
>>>
>>
>>
>>Sarcasm does not become you.
>>
>
>In the case of a proven liar and a neo nazi revisionist its entirely
>justified.
>
>
>greg
>
>--

Ask him how people could be murdered several times at night.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[[email protected]]

(B2431) wrote:

>
>Ask him how people could be murdered several times at night.
>
>Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

Hell yes...it'd be hard enough in daylight I'd think.
--

-Gord.

[B2431]

>From: "Gord Beaman" )
>Date: 12/24/2003 11:12 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
(B2431) wrote:
>
>>
>>Ask him how people could be murdered several times at night.
>>
>>Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired
>
>Hell yes...it'd be hard enough in daylight I'd think.
>--
>
>-Gord.

Which begs the question; how many times can an individual be murdered?

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[Moramarth]

In article >, Keith Willshaw <keithNoSp
> writes
>
>"The Enlightenment" > wrote in message
...
>>
>
>>
>> Having personaly spoken to Austrian Army POWs who were held in open pens
>in
>> the snow for weeks and dieing from exposure and had to suffer several
>> murders by pot shots a night I know that elements of the US military can
>be
>> very savage. To be fair it seems to have been mainly Polish American
>units
>> that did this.
>>
>>
>
>So you have spoken to Austrian POW's who died from exposure
>and were them murdered several times by being shot at night
>
>An interesting claim
If you allow for the mangled English (I'd mangle German worse!) he's
probably making a valid point. Remagen is, sadly, all too well
attested, and it's possibly the same errors were perpetrated elsewhere:
miscalculation and callousness rather than a deliberate intention to
take lives. Remagen looks worse because there was a Red Cross supply
dump immediately adjacent to the camp that could have alleviated the
nutrition problem. We were lucky that we were able to repatriate the
Argentineans so quickly after the cessation of hostilities in the
Falklands before the situation on Stanley airfield became unmanageable.
>
Regards
>Keith
>
>

--
Moramarth

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
>From: Moramarth
>Date: 12/25/03 1:49 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >, Keith Willshaw <keithNoSp
> writes
>>
>>"The Enlightenment" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>
>>>
>>> Having personaly spoken to Austrian Army POWs who were held in open pens
>>in
>>> the snow for weeks and dieing from exposure and had to suffer several
>>> murders by pot shots a night I know that elements of the US military can
>>be
>>> very savage. To be fair it seems to have been mainly Polish American
>>units
>>> that did this.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>So you have spoken to Austrian POW's who died from exposure
>>and were them murdered several times by being shot at night
>>
>>An interesting claim
>If you allow for the mangled English (I'd mangle German worse!) he's
>probably making a valid point. Remagen is, sadly, all too well
>attested, and it's possibly the same errors were perpetrated elsewhere:
>miscalculation and callousness rather than a deliberate intention to
>take lives. Remagen looks worse because there was a Red Cross supply
>dump immediately adjacent to the camp that could have alleviated the
>nutrition problem. We were lucky that we were able to repatriate the
>Argentineans so quickly after the cessation of hostilities in the
>Falklands before the situation on Stanley airfield became unmanageable.
>>
>Regards
>>Keith
>>
>>
>
>--
>Moramarth


What does the bridge at Remagen have to do with with the Malmedy massacre?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Moramarth]

In article >, ArtKramr
> writes
>Remagen is, sadly, all too well
>>attested, and it's possibly the same errors were perpetrated elsewhere:
>>miscalculation and callousness rather than a deliberate intention to
>>take lives. Remagen looks worse because there was a Red Cross supply
>>dump immediately adjacent to the camp that could have alleviated the
>>nutrition problem. We were lucky that we were able to repatriate the
>>Argentineans so quickly after the cessation of hostilities in the
>>Falklands before the situation on Stanley airfield became unmanageable.
>
>
>What does the bridge at Remagen have to do with with the Malmedy massacre?
Happy Christmas, Art (although it's been Boxing Day for about an hour
here already) and best wishes for the coming year. I too appreciate
your posts, and should have said so earlier.
>
I'm not referring either to the bridge or the Malmedy massacre, but the
earlier reference to accounts by Austrian POWs of being held in open
pens in adverse conditions. Regrettably, something similar did happen
at Remagen shortly after the town was taken. The incident was the
subject of a TV documentary some years ago, it may have been part of the
BBC "Timewatch" series. It has not so much been covered up as just not
spoken of in polite company - the programme researchers found much of
the information was freely available. IIRC, the problem was that when
Axis forces in the west started surrendering in large numbers, they
became a strain on the Allied supply lines, and for logistical purposes
it was inquired of the US Army medical department what was the minimum
nutrition which could be provided for enemy POWs. The figure calculated
was adequate, but on the basis of men in initially good condition housed
in permanent establishments with barracks; however it became adopted as
flat rate figure for all circumstances. A large "pen" at Remagen was
intended as a temporary establishment and was simply a wired compound
(or compounds) with no permanent shelters and little of any other sort,
and it ended up containing a large number of men essentially in the open
for several weeks in bad conditions - but you will know what the weather
was like at that time. The result was a large number (ISTR the
programme was talking of thousands) of deaths from hypothermia and
malnutrition amongst the prisoners. Small change compared with the
Eastern Front, but something which we as the good guys were a bit
ashamed of and not eager to have discussed - and as the other side were
in no position to point fingers afterward, it sort of became
conveniently forgotten. However, it appears lessons were learned, hence
my reference to the Argentineans from the Falklands being repatriated
before there was even a proper end to hostilities - the tentage and
other equipment intended to house them having been lost on the "Atlantic
Conveyor".
>
Regards,
>Arthur Kramer
>

--
Moramarth

[BUFDRVR]

>To be fair it seems to have been mainly Polish American units
>that did this.

Since no American units have ever been assembled based on ethnicity (with Negro
units being the obvious exception), I find your above statement ridiculous.



BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: This day in 1944: Hunger, frostbite, gangrene
>From: Moramarth
>Date: 12/25/03 5:50 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >, ArtKramr
> writes
>>Remagen is, sadly, all too well
>>>attested, and it's possibly the same errors were perpetrated elsewhere:
>>>miscalculation and callousness rather than a deliberate intention to
>>>take lives. Remagen looks worse because there was a Red Cross supply
>>>dump immediately adjacent to the camp that could have alleviated the
>>>nutrition problem. We were lucky that we were able to repatriate the
>>>Argentineans so quickly after the cessation of hostilities in the
>>>Falklands before the situation on Stanley airfield became unmanageable.
>>
>>
>>What does the bridge at Remagen have to do with with the Malmedy massacre?
>Happy Christmas, Art (although it's been Boxing Day for about an hour
>here already) and best wishes for the coming year. I too appreciate
>your posts, and should have said so earlier.
>>
>I'm not referring either to the bridge or the Malmedy massacre, but the
>earlier reference to accounts by Austrian POWs of being held in open
>pens in adverse conditions. Regrettably, something similar did happen
>at Remagen shortly after the town was taken. The incident was the
>subject of a TV documentary some years ago, it may have been part of the
>BBC "Timewatch" series. It has not so much been covered up as just not
>spoken of in polite company - the programme researchers found much of
>the information was freely available. IIRC, the problem was that when
>Axis forces in the west started surrendering in large numbers, they
>became a strain on the Allied supply lines, and for logistical purposes
>it was inquired of the US Army medical department what was the minimum
>nutrition which could be provided for enemy POWs. The figure calculated
>was adequate, but on the basis of men in initially good condition housed
>in permanent establishments with barracks; however it became adopted as
>flat rate figure for all circumstances. A large "pen" at Remagen was
>intended as a temporary establishment and was simply a wired compound
>(or compounds) with no permanent shelters and little of any other sort,
>and it ended up containing a large number of men essentially in the open
>for several weeks in bad conditions - but you will know what the weather
>was like at that time. The result was a large number (ISTR the
>programme was talking of thousands) of deaths from hypothermia and
>malnutrition amongst the prisoners. Small change compared with the
>Eastern Front, but something which we as the good guys were a bit
>ashamed of and not eager to have discussed - and as the other side were
>in no position to point fingers afterward, it sort of became
>conveniently forgotten. However, it appears lessons were learned, hence
>my reference to the Argentineans from the Falklands being repatriated
>before there was even a proper end to hostilities - the tentage and
>other equipment intended to house them having been lost on the "Atlantic
>Conveyor".
>>
>Regards,
>>Arthur Kramer
>>
>
>--
>Moramarth
>


Thanks for the heads up. To me Malmedy means only a bridge. Interesting to hear
about it although we all knew that the surrendering forces were a severe burden
on supplies. I guess we never planned on feeding two armies, ours and theirs.
(sigh)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[John Keeney]

"BUFDRVR" > wrote in message
...
> >To be fair it seems to have been mainly Polish American units
> >that did this.
>
> Since no American units have ever been assembled based on ethnicity (with
Negro
> units being the obvious exception), I find your above statement
ridiculous.

Well, the Nessi(sp?, Japanese Americans) in WWII pretty much had their
own unit. Then, back as far as the Civil War and possibly as late as the
Spanish American War, some units assembled themselves in a manner
that could be considered ethnic.

[Evan Brennan]

Moramarth > wrote in message >...
>We were lucky that we were able to repatriate the Argentineans so
> quickly after the cessation of hostilities in the Falklands

Not all were so lucky. Let us not forget that Argentine soldiers were
shot while attempting to surrender to British paratroops. Some of the
Paras said that they had no intention of taking prisoners.

This is well documented by former Royal Marine Commando Hugh McManners
in his book "The Scars of War". A disturbing contrast to the swill
spit out by the Ministry of Defence.

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
(BUFDRVR) wrote:

> >To be fair it seems to have been mainly Polish American units
> >that did this.
>
> Since no American units have ever been assembled based on ethnicity (with
> Negro units being the obvious exception), I find your above statement ridiculous.
>

And a couple of Irish brigades in the ACW.

[B2431]

>From: (BUFDRVR)
>
>
>>To be fair it seems to have been mainly Polish American units
>>that did this.
>
>Since no American units have ever been assembled based on ethnicity (with
>Negro
>units being the obvious exception), I find your above statement ridiculous.
>
>
>
>BUFDRVR
>
The 442 RCT might be surprised to hear that.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[BUFDRVR]

>Well, the Nessi(sp?, Japanese Americans) in WWII pretty much had their
>own unit.

Good point, I had forgotten them.

>Then, back as far as the Civil War and possibly as late as the
>Spanish American War, some units assembled themselves in a manner
>that could be considered ethnic.

During the Civil War, units were assembled in geographic location. Depending
on location, you could see a majority of the unit having the same ethnic
background, but this was not intentional. The practice was continued on a
smaller scale during WWI and nearly gone during WWII.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[BUFDRVR]

>And a couple of Irish brigades in the ACW.

The Irish Brigades (New York had at least 3, the 69th, 88th and 140th) were
assembled from volunteers in predominantly Irish Neighborhoods. If you were a
German immigrant living in that neighborhood, and had no issue fighting beneath
a Shamrock Flag, you were free to join (and many did).


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Merlin Dorfman]

BUFDRVR ) wrote:
: >To be fair it seems to have been mainly Polish American units
: >that did this.

: Since no American units have ever been assembled based on ethnicity (with Negro
: units being the obvious exception), I find your above statement ridiculous.

How about the 442nd RCT/100th Bn.?

[Gernot Hassenpflug]

latin american thunderbolt pilots?

--
G Hassenpflug * IJN & JMSDF equipment/history fan

[machf]

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 17:29:42 +0900, Gernot Hassenpflug > wrote:

>latin american thunderbolt pilots?

Those were mostly fighting under their own countries' flags... with the aircraft
from their original squadrons (I'm thinking mainly of the Brazilians and
Mexicans).

--
__________ ____---____ Marco Antonio Checa Funcke
\_________D /-/---_----' Santiago de Surco, Lima, Peru
_H__/_/ http://machf.tripod.com
'-_____|(

remove the "no_me_j." and "sons.of." parts before replying

[Drazen Kramaric]

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:31:37 -0000, "Keith Willshaw"
> wrote:



>There was no fire fight, the soldiers involved werent front line
>infantry they were members of a fieeld artillery observation
>battallion being transported by truck when they were surprised
>by 1st SS Panzer . What happened next is simply that they adopted
>their usual method of dealing with POW's as developed on the
>eastern front and herded them into a field and shot them

It should be noted that both sides on Eastern front treated POWs
brutally. However, those who survived to reach POW camps had more
chance to survive in Soviet captivity than German one.

Nevertheless, what happened at Malmedy was probably no different from
what has happened at Biscari on Sicily where Americans shot Italian
POWs out of hand. The massacre was hushed up by Patton and Bradley. If
Americans were willing to treat their generals the way they treated
commanding officers of 6th Panzer Army for Malmedy both Patton and
Bradley with score of subordinate officers would have been lucky to
spend some time in Fort Leavenworth, KS.

What is tragic is that victorious powers from WW2 learnt nothing. When
their armies found themselves in similar conditions (Algeria, Vietnam)
like German security divisions massacres took place again and wherever
possible were hushed up.


Drax

[B2431]

(Drazen Kramaric)

>It should be noted that both sides on Eastern front treated POWs
>brutally. However, those who survived to reach POW camps had more
>chance to survive in Soviet captivity than German one.
>

Tell that to the roughly 95% death rate of the German POWS taken at Stalingrad.
Most of those died before the war ended. The fact that many of them were not
repatriated until the early 1950s didn't help things either.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[Drazen Kramaric]

On 31 Dec 2003 19:31:35 GMT, (B2431) wrote:


>Tell that to the roughly 95% death rate of the German POWS taken at Stalingrad.
>Most of those died before the war ended. The fact that many of them were not
>repatriated until the early 1950s didn't help things either.

POWs captured at Stalingrad were a sort of special case. Most of them
died soon after capture from dyarhea. When Soviets captured them they
were already starving, frozen, weakened. Also, this was the first time
Soviets captured so many POWs and facilities to accomodate them did
not exist in the Stalingrad area.

Later, when Soviets got more experience, the survival rate increased.
In total, far more Axis POWs survived captivity in USSR then vice
versa.


Drax
remove NOSPAM for reply

[Tarver Engineering]

"Drazen Kramaric" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:31:37 -0000, "Keith Willshaw"
> > wrote:
>
>
>
> >There was no fire fight, the soldiers involved werent front line
> >infantry they were members of a fieeld artillery observation
> >battallion being transported by truck when they were surprised
> >by 1st SS Panzer . What happened next is simply that they adopted
> >their usual method of dealing with POW's as developed on the
> >eastern front and herded them into a field and shot them
>
> It should be noted that both sides on Eastern front treated POWs
> brutally. However, those who survived to reach POW camps had more
> chance to survive in Soviet captivity than German one.

There was retribution at Bastogne for Malmedy and that is the reason history
pretends that the 82nd saved the 101st there. The heaviest fighting my
father was involved in at Bastogne was the ten days after the Bulge
officialy ended. Those SS troops could either quit, or die, but we weren't
having them get home to fight again.

[Ed Majden]

Can't understand why there were so many Allied casualties on the Western
fronts! When I was stationed in Germany with NATO in the early 1960's most
Germans I met said they fought on the Eastern front. Only met one fellow
that admitted he was a Nazi and fought in the West. He wondered where all
the other ones had gone!!

[Keith Willshaw]

"Ed Majden" > wrote in message
news:u7ZJb.943064$6C4.233119@pd7tw1no...
> Can't understand why there were so many Allied casualties on the
Western
> fronts!

Because there was a lot of fighting there. The fighting around
Caen was some of the most brutal of the war with armoured
units firing through buildings at each other in villages such as
Villiers-Bocage. By the end of July many of the Canadian and
British units who had been fighting several Panzer divisions
for more than a month had taken 50% casualties. When the
Americans made their breakout 7 out of the 9 Panzer divisions
available to the Germans were locked into the fight around Caen
and were unable to take part in the weak attack at Mortain

By the last week in July, according to ULTRA intercepts of coded
German radio communications, the enemy in Normandy had sustained
casualties of more than 100,000 enlisted men and 2,360 officers killed
and wounded. Rommel wrote to his son "It was casualty reports, casualty
reports, casualty reports wherever you went, I have never fought with
such losses"

Keith

[Ed Majden]

"Keith Willshaw" >
> Because there was a lot of fighting there. The fighting around
> Caen was some of the most brutal of the war with armoured
> units firing through buildings at each other in villages such as
> Villiers-Bocage.

You have missed my point! Of course there were many brutal battles on
Western fronts. My comment was aimed at the Germans that would not admit
they had participated in these events. Some even lived next door to
concentration camps and would not admit that these camps existed let alone
what was going on inside of them.