Color Me Annoyed

[Denny]

Well, my 2007 annual condition inspection ends tomorrow... Yee Old
Crusty Mechanic has been increasingly hard to contact for the past two
months and now has disconnected his phone, his airplanes are gone, and
his hangar has been sold... I'm beginning to suspect that he does not
intend to do the annual on Fat Albert as he has promised several
times, right up to recently.. I hear rumours that he is wrenching on
diesel trucks for a living now... There indeed, is no joy in Mudville
tonight...

So, I got hold of another mechanic who promises that we can talk about
it next week!

Ya see, if general aviation is in such trouble, and mechanics are
having to go to wrenching on trucks for a living, then why can't you
find a mechanic who will work on your airplane within a reasonable
time frame? (mutter, mumble)

Anyway, I am forced to cancel a scheduled flight this weekend and the
one for next weekend is likely DOA also... I am going to see if a
bargain can be struck for me to pull the inspection plates and have
him inspect it and do the compression test, and sign the ship off so I
can have it for the 9th and 10th and then he can swing the gear,
etc., and do the other things I have been contemplating (new
hydraulic hoses, and 'maybe' a top overhaul on the right engine), at
his leisure...

Putting the RV7 back on the front burner and getting it finished is
beginning to look more attractive daily, then I won't be at the mercy
of these mechanics who whine they are starving, but just can't seem to
find the time...

denny

[[email protected]]

>
> Ya see, if general aviation is in such trouble, and mechanics are
> having to go to wrenching on trucks for a living, then why can't you
> find a mechanic who will work on your airplane within a reasonable
> time frame? (mutter, mumble)
>

Yep. The full time mechanic that has been working on my plane has
essentially quit the business, only performing annuals on the minimum
number of planes to keep his IA. (Fortunately mine is one of them.)
His main problem is getting paid. Owners either refuse to pay or make
him wait for the $$$. I don't understand this because they are just
shooting themselves (and others) in the foot.

Regards,
Jerry

[JGalban via AviationKB.com]

wrote:
>

>His main problem is getting paid. Owners either refuse to pay or make
>him wait for the $$$. I don't understand this because they are just
>shooting themselves (and others) in the foot.
>

Funny, I've always had the opposite problem. I've had the same mechanic
for 18 yrs. and every time I show up to pick up my plane (checkbook in hand)
there is no bill ready, so I can't pay. They've always been able to get the
work done in a reasonable time, but the billing could take a week or two.
He's getting a lot better since he hired some staff to keep the paperwork
moving.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/aviation/200801/1

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> Well, my 2007 annual condition inspection ends tomorrow... Yee Old
> Crusty Mechanic has been increasingly hard to contact for the past two
> months and now has disconnected his phone, his airplanes are gone, and
> his hangar has been sold...

Hmmm. Doesn't sound like said Crusty Mechanic is your friend, to me.

Maybe you should fly Fat Albert to Iowa City, Denny. Our FBO here is going
great guns, with four or five full-time A&Ps.

I prefer to use my old friend who is now semi-retired (he only works on
planes of his choosing, in between wrenching full time on jets and building
his next airplane), but I've heard that the shop on the field here is quite
good.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
"Denny" > wrote in message
...
> Well, my 2007 annual condition inspection ends tomorrow... Yee Old
> Crusty Mechanic has been increasingly hard to contact for the past two
> months and now has disconnected his phone, his airplanes are gone, and
> his hangar has been sold... I'm beginning to suspect that he does not
> intend to do the annual on Fat Albert as he has promised several
> times, right up to recently.. I hear rumours that he is wrenching on
> diesel trucks for a living now... There indeed, is no joy in Mudville
> tonight...
>
> So, I got hold of another mechanic who promises that we can talk about
> it next week!
>
> Ya see, if general aviation is in such trouble, and mechanics are
> having to go to wrenching on trucks for a living, then why can't you
> find a mechanic who will work on your airplane within a reasonable
> time frame? (mutter, mumble)
>
> Anyway, I am forced to cancel a scheduled flight this weekend and the
> one for next weekend is likely DOA also... I am going to see if a
> bargain can be struck for me to pull the inspection plates and have
> him inspect it and do the compression test, and sign the ship off so I
> can have it for the 9th and 10th and then he can swing the gear,
> etc., and do the other things I have been contemplating (new
> hydraulic hoses, and 'maybe' a top overhaul on the right engine), at
> his leisure...
>
> Putting the RV7 back on the front burner and getting it finished is
> beginning to look more attractive daily, then I won't be at the mercy
> of these mechanics who whine they are starving, but just can't seem to
> find the time...
>
> denny

[B A R R Y]

On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 00:26:01 GMT, "JGalban via AviationKB.com"
<u32749@uwe> wrote:

> Funny, I've always had the opposite problem. I've had the same mechanic
>for 18 yrs. and every time I show up to pick up my plane (checkbook in hand)
>there is no bill ready, so I can't pay.

Our guy is like that too, as is my favorite avionics shop.

I just keep the check at hand and send it off as soon as the bill
arrives.

[Longworth[_1_]]

On Jan 30, 7:26*pm, "JGalban via AviationKB.com" <u32749@uwe> wrote:
>
> * *Funny, I've always had the opposite problem. *I've had the same mechanic
> for 18 yrs. and every time I show up to pick up my plane (checkbook in hand)
> there is no bill ready, so I can't pay. *They've always been able to get the

We have the same problem with late billing. The year before
last, our A&P was so busy that he did not have the time to take care
of the billing. The next annual, we got a big bill for the two
annuals along with several big jobs that he did over the year
(installing a photo window, JPI engine monitor etc). It was nice that
he did not charge interest. However, in checking out the details, we
found that he had charged us labor for a recall item which was
supposedly to be paid by Lycoming. It took few phone calls to find out
that Lycoming had paid him but his secretary did not record it
properly so he corrected the bill.

Hai Longworth

[rotor&wing]

Here are your choices: Go to school and get your A&P license, then put in the required 3 years and acquire the IA rating, or build a homebuilt and get a repairman certificate.

Being an A&P in General Aviation simply isn't worth it anymore. Auto shops pay far better wages without the liability and a government agency such as the FAA scrutinizing your every move. Then add in aircraft owners that threaten lawsuits over anything they are unhappy with, or the "I'm gonna call the FAA!" threats when you try to tell them why their annual is going to cost a lot more than they have budgeted.

Most aircraft owners view this as their hobby and expect the mechanic to treat it as his hobby also. These same owners will balk and raise hell about paying $60 an hour for an A&P, but gladly pay the Chevy dealer $90 an hour to work on his SUV.

I can't count the times when pilots on the airport discovered I had an A&P/IA would come to me wanting "sign off my annual" if they "do all the work". What this really meant was "I'll open up the panels and cowlings, then you take my logbooks and sign them". I even had one guy walk in my hangar with his logbooks and told me "I've done everything, I just need these signed".

Needless to say, I don't work on anyone's airplane except my own.


So bitch and complain all you want. This doesn't affect me since I can do all my own work. And as time goes by, it's only going to get worse.

[Roger[_4_]]

On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 00:27:32 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> Well, my 2007 annual condition inspection ends tomorrow... Yee Old
>> Crusty Mechanic has been increasingly hard to contact for the past two
>> months and now has disconnected his phone, his airplanes are gone, and
>> his hangar has been sold...
>

If Ye Ol' "crusty" mechanic is who I think he is, last I heard he was
working with the trucking business with which he used to have
connections, but he was still working out of his hangar.

>Hmmm. Doesn't sound like said Crusty Mechanic is your friend, to me.

Tis a long story, but he was a pretty good mechanic and would let you
work along with him IIRC. I thought he was a good guy to work with
and had no complaints except for one guy who helped him some years
back.


I don't get out there near as often as I'd like and usually enough
happens between visits it takes a while to catch up.

Since my first flight there's only been one really good day and I
wasn't able to fly that day. Maybe tomorrow BEFORE the big storm
comes in. <:-))

Roger (K8RI)
>
>Maybe you should fly Fat Albert to Iowa City, Denny. Our FBO here is going
>great guns, with four or five full-time A&Ps.
>
>I prefer to use my old friend who is now semi-retired (he only works on
>planes of his choosing, in between wrenching full time on jets and building
>his next airplane), but I've heard that the shop on the field here is quite
>good.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Denny]

Just general comments to the posts...

Yup, Ol Crusty never could seem to get a bill together... He wrenched
on my airplanes for 17 continuous years as best I can remember...
When I did get the bill some 5 or 6 weeks later I always sent a check
by return mail as I knew he was usually in a cash flow crunch... A
couple of times I even drove the check 20 miles to him after my office
hours on the day I received it because I knew he needed to pay his
mechanic... And I did consider him a friend (he still left me twisting
in the wind - for whatever it's worth)...

Being in one business or another for 50+ years I can cite you chapter
and verse on slow pay/no pay people... All business owners have these
problems...
When I had the auto body shop it only took me one bad customer to set
the rule that the car is not pulled out from behind the chained fence
until the bill is paid in full...
Airplane mechanics who are not getting paid just do not understand how
to run a business... The plane does not leave the shop until the bill
is paid - period...
If the customer needs credit let him get it from the bank, his
buddies, where ever... <or go to Helen Waite>
Anytime I have a bill at any of the big guys, Jet Center, Millionaire,
etc. my plane stays behind their hangar doors until the eye candy at
the front desk calls the shop foreman and informs him the bill is paid
and he can bring the plane out to the ramp... They understand what it
takes to stay in business...

I agree with plane owners being cheap *******s... In fact I told Ol
Crusty numerous times that he needed to raise his shop rates, paint
the floor, get new tool carts, everyone wears a clean uniform, present
the customer with an itemized estimated bill and have it signed in the
three places before turning the first wrench, and act like he is a
skilled professional... Doing that and having a business manager
would have kept him in business.. The auto dealers understand that -
and for those who don't it will only be a short time before Roger
Penske's name will be out front in place of theirs......

denny

[rotor&wing]

I agree with plane owners being cheap *******s... In fact I told Ol
Crusty numerous times that he needed to raise his shop rates, paint
the floor, get new tool carts, everyone wears a clean uniform, present
the customer with an itemized estimated bill and have it signed in the
three places before turning the first wrench, and act like he is a
skilled professional... Doing that and having a business manager
would have kept him in business.. The auto dealers understand that -
and for those who don't it will only be a short time before Roger
Penske's name will be out front in place of theirs......

denny

And if the mechanic did this and raised his rates the aircraft owners would refuse to go there. Remember, most aircraft owners expect the mechanic to do this as his hobby too. Also when the typical pilot has an annual done they somehow expect the plane to be "warranteed" for the rest of the year, i.e. if a mag fails 6 months and 150 hours later, they are back to the IA complaining he "didn't do his annual correctly" and want him to pay to repair the problem. If he doesn't, then said aircraft owner tells everyone what a "crook" this "incompetent" A&P is and drags him through the mud, or better yet runs to the FAA and tries to complain.

Aircraft owners are digging the hole deeper and deeper. The end result will be no one willing to work on your aircraft, or taking it to the Mega dollar FBO and getting a $12000 annual on your 172.

Like I said, glad I got my A&P/IA.

[Matt Whiting]

wrote:
>> Ya see, if general aviation is in such trouble, and mechanics are
>> having to go to wrenching on trucks for a living, then why can't you
>> find a mechanic who will work on your airplane within a reasonable
>> time frame? (mutter, mumble)
>>
>
> Yep. The full time mechanic that has been working on my plane has
> essentially quit the business, only performing annuals on the minimum
> number of planes to keep his IA. (Fortunately mine is one of them.)
> His main problem is getting paid. Owners either refuse to pay or make
> him wait for the $$$. I don't understand this because they are just
> shooting themselves (and others) in the foot.

And what is so hard about getting his money upfront? An inspection
should be a fixed fee, so get the money before he starts.

Matt

[Steve]

> Most aircraft owners view this as their hobby and expect the mechanic
> to treat it as his hobby also. These same owners will balk and raise
> hell about paying $60 an hour for an A&P, but gladly pay the Chevy
> dealer $90 an hour to work on his SUV.


The pilots I know are willing to pay fair value for services rendered.
I'm guessing you didn't spend multi-million on a facility, $250 grand in
shop equipment and diagnostic analyzers. If you did you are likely to have a
1st class facility that would draw plenty of aircraft repair business that
would pay you $90 an hour. Heck you could publish a reasonable fixed rate
for inspections and I'm sure you can get plenty of business that way also.
But you sound like you have an unreasonable expectation of what a mechanics
should earn. Keep you A&P/IA to yourself, the world doesn't need another
service provider with a chip on their shoulder.

[rotor&wing]

The pilots I know are willing to pay fair value for services rendered.
I'm guessing you didn't spend multi-million on a facility, $250 grand in
shop equipment and diagnostic analyzers. If you did you are likely to have a
1st class facility that would draw plenty of aircraft repair business that
would pay you $90 an hour. Heck you could publish a reasonable fixed rate
for inspections and I'm sure you can get plenty of business that way also.
But you sound like you have an unreasonable expectation of what a mechanics
should earn. Keep you A&P/IA to yourself, the world doesn't need another
service provider with a chip on their shoulder.

I don't have a shop nor do I work as a mechanic. I've been involved in GA for over 35 years and took the time to acquire my A&P and IA so I could maintain my own airplane or helicopter.

A large portion of GA pilots can't really afford it as a hobby and are unrealistic when it comes to the true cost of aircraft ownership. These coupled with the tight wads that want everything done for them as "a buddy deal" are the biggest complainers when it comes to aircraft maintenance.

At one point in my life I was the guy that would help out a fellow pilot with a maintenance problem, but no more. I've been screwed over more than once with one time leading to an FAA investigation over a false accusation (I was cleared, but it was unpleasant to say the least).

So yes, I'll keep my A&P/IA to myself. And for the rest of you, just keep bitching about the lack of good A&P's to support your hobby.

[Roger[_4_]]

On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 08:41:18 -0800 (PST), wrote:

>>
>> Ya see, if general aviation is in such trouble, and mechanics are
>> having to go to wrenching on trucks for a living, then why can't you
>> find a mechanic who will work on your airplane within a reasonable
>> time frame? (mutter, mumble)
>>
>
>Yep. The full time mechanic that has been working on my plane has
>essentially quit the business, only performing annuals on the minimum
>number of planes to keep his IA. (Fortunately mine is one of them.)
>His main problem is getting paid. Owners either refuse to pay or make
>him wait for the $$$. I don't understand this because they are just
>shooting themselves (and others) in the foot.

In all the years I've been flying, in a partnership or outright
owning, I do not recall even once finding the bill ready when the
annual was finished. That is with a couple exceptions where it took a
week to catch a ride between storms to pick up the Deb. He even
delivered it a couple times (without charging for his time flying it
down), but even then the bill came in the mail at the end of the
month.

Avionics work has been the same. Get the work done and the bill comes
later.

Roger (K8RI)
>
>Regards,
>Jerry
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Denny]

Well, it is 1 Feb and Fat Albert is out of license this morning, and I
am Mr. grumpy... First time in over 40 years of owning I have had my
airplane just sitting there in flyable condition, out of license...

Multiple comments read and noted... There are no easy answers to the
dilemma of GA... The increasing costs of everything are driving folks
out of flying... The increasing regs and draconian penalties for
crossing an invisible line on the ground are driving folks out of
flying... The decreasing hours flown are hurting FBO and mechanics...
It is a vicious circle...

For a tiny few, getting your own A&PI is the answer, but out of reach
of the other 99.xx% of us...
Building an experimental is one solution... I am persuing that, but
working 12 hours a day seems to get in the way of my motivation...
LSA is a partial answer - and might be in my future as I continue to
age (hopefully, I will continue to)

The loss of Ol Grumpy will increase business for the folks remaining
which should help keep them in business - the law of unintended
consequences in action...

denny and Fat Albert the Apache

[Jim Stewart]

rotor&amp;wing wrote:
> Steve;598168 Wrote:
>>
>> The pilots I know are willing to pay fair value for services rendered.
>> I'm guessing you didn't spend multi-million on a facility, $250 grand
>> in
>> shop equipment and diagnostic analyzers. If you did you are likely to
>> have a
>> 1st class facility that would draw plenty of aircraft repair business
>> that
>> would pay you $90 an hour. Heck you could publish a reasonable fixed
>> rate
>> for inspections and I'm sure you can get plenty of business that way
>> also.
>> But you sound like you have an unreasonable expectation of what a
>> mechanics
>> should earn. Keep you A&P/IA to yourself, the world doesn't need
>> another
>> service provider with a chip on their shoulder.
>
> I don't have a shop nor do I work as a mechanic. I've been involved in
> GA for over 35 years and took the time to acquire my A&P and IA so I
> could maintain my own airplane or helicopter.
>
> A large portion of GA pilots can't really afford it as a hobby and are
> unrealistic when it comes to the true cost of aircraft ownership. These
> coupled with the tight wads that want everything done for them as "a
> buddy deal" are the biggest complainers when it comes to aircraft
> maintenance.
>
> At one point in my life I was the guy that would help out a fellow
> pilot with a maintenance problem, but no more. I've been screwed over
> more than once with one time leading to an FAA investigation over a
> false accusation (I was cleared, but it was unpleasant to say the
> least).
>
> So yes, I'll keep my A&P/IA to myself. And for the rest of you, just
> keep bitching about the lack of good A&P's to support your hobby.

And if you do have a good and generous A&P,
remind him that he should charge as much as
the guy that fixes your Subaru, and If he
still doesn't, give him a big tip and offer
to fill his plane or car with gas...

[rotor&wing]

Well, it is 1 Feb and Fat Albert is out of license this morning, and I
am Mr. grumpy... First time in over 40 years of owning I have had my
airplane just sitting there in flyable condition, out of license...

Multiple comments read and noted... There are no easy answers to the
dilemma of GA... The increasing costs of everything are driving folks
out of flying... The increasing regs and draconian penalties for
crossing an invisible line on the ground are driving folks out of
flying... The decreasing hours flown are hurting FBO and mechanics...
It is a vicious circle...

For a tiny few, getting your own A&PI is the answer, but out of reach
of the other 99.xx% of us...
Building an experimental is one solution... I am persuing that, but
working 12 hours a day seems to get in the way of my motivation...
LSA is a partial answer - and might be in my future as I continue to
age (hopefully, I will continue to)

The loss of Ol Grumpy will increase business for the folks remaining
which should help keep them in business - the law of unintended
consequences in action...

denny and Fat Albert the Apache


It's really too bad the FAA doesn't have a "repairman" rating for private aircraft owners and their aircraft.

My first twin was a 1957 Apache with the 150hp engines. I redid the instrument panel and put the center stack avionics. It was just a reliable great plane.

A few hangars down from me is a full blown Geronimo Apache (full conversion including nacelles and 180hp) There were only about 12 ever done that have all the STC's applied and this is one of them.

[Margy Natalie]

Blanche wrote:

>
> I just called the A&P/IA that does the work on the putt-putt and reminded
> him I hadn't seen a bill yet for the installation of the new battery. His
> reply was "bring a big batch of brownies with walnuts".
>
>

Food does tend to motivate mechanics :-). When I had the time to do
owner assists I always showed up with a case of soda and made all the
Wendy's runs.

Margy

[B A R R Y]

On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 17:35:51 -0500, Margy Natalie >
wrote:
>
>Food does tend to motivate mechanics :-).

As does BEER, in moderation and after the day's business is done.

[Margy Natalie]

B A R R Y wrote:
> On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 17:35:51 -0500, Margy Natalie >
> wrote:
>
>>Food does tend to motivate mechanics :-).
>
>
> As does BEER, in moderation and after the day's business is done.
Flying out to dinner works if the mechanic has to work on her birthday
to get your plane ready for Oshkosh!

[Denny]

I have found money to be the universal motivator..

Well, the Fat Boy is sitting up on jacks in The Kid's hangar... So
far The Kid has found two weak cylinders on the right engine that
weren't that bad last year, so the field overhaul is on for sure now -
1686 SMOH on a first run factory engine... Whether it will be a top or
a major remains to be seen... He will be pulling the cylinders today
and I am going there tonight after I finish my office hours to inspect
the engine...
He also found a hinge worn past service limits on the rudder trim tab
- not a surprise as Old Crusty and I had been watching it... And a
hard hydraulic hose behind the left engine - again not a surprise as
we had been anticipating that for this annual... And now I am going
to spring on him tonite that I want ALL the hydraulic hoses
replaced... I know he wants to get me out of his hangar this week as
he put off another annual in order to get me in - but hey, no one said
life is fair...
<and he doesn't know that I cut a deal with the other plane owner
ahead of time. It never hurts to have a few friends in your pocket>

Anyway, The Kid is the son of the original owner of the Fat Boy and
took over his dad's FBO business after he passed away... I've known
The Kid since he was snot nosed... Ward, his father, had been the FBO
and airport manager since the earth first cooled... I have rented
airplanes from Ward and had him work on my planes since the early
60's... The Kid is a good mechanic... He is starting to get cranky now
that he is getitng streaks of grey at the temples, just like his
father, and he is in line for a new moniker to celebrate his
crankiness, but for now he will remain, The Kid...

Anyway, things are looking up in Muddville..

denny

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Denny wrote:
>
> Anyway, things are looking up in Muddville..

Glad to hear that.

My plane went out of annual last Thursday night, and my guy is planning
to start it Saturday. We had some nice weather this past weekend, so I
now totally understand the feeling of a parfectly good airplane that
can't legally be flown.

[[email protected]]

On Jan 31, 6:38 pm, "Steve" > wrote:
> The pilots I know are willing to pay fair value for services rendered.
> I'm guessing you didn't spend multi-million on a facility, $250 grand in
> shop equipment and diagnostic analyzers. If you did you are likely to have a
> 1st class facility that would draw plenty of aircraft repair business that
> would pay you $90 an hour. Heck you could publish a reasonable fixed rate
> for inspections and I'm sure you can get plenty of business that way also.
> But you sound like you have an unreasonable expectation of what a mechanics
> should earn. Keep you A&P/IA to yourself, the world doesn't need another
> service provider with a chip on their shoulder.

A friend of mine did exactly that, and lost it all. It's not that
simple at all. Airplanes cost money, and most owners don't have a lot
of it. The few that do got their cash by being stingy with it, not by
showering it on mechanics.
So as long as a guy can earn way more fixing trucks, with less
liability and no hassles getting paid, we'll find fewer mechanics
willing to put up with the hassle.

Dan (pilot/mechanic)

[Denny]

Well, The Kid just called at 10:45 AM... The jugs are off and the
bottom end looks good... The cam is clean... Looks like a top
overhaul only (whoo hoo).. He brightened up when I said lets just do
a top, figuring he would have it buttoned up by Friday... I have the
new Lycoming cylinder kits out in the truck to deliver to him...
So, then I dropped on him that I also want fresh donuts on both motor
mounts and a new crank seal - that caused him to hesitate... He can
see his February schedule going to pot anyway... I'll wait until
tomorrow to bring up the new hydraulic hoses for the landing gear...

[Alan[_6_]]

In article > Denny > writes:

>Well, it is 1 Feb and Fat Albert is out of license this morning, and I
>am Mr. grumpy... First time in over 40 years of owning I have had my
>airplane just sitting there in flyable condition, out of license...

Waiting months while the mechanic promised he would get to the static
system check "next week" was probably the thing that really turned the
corner for the demise of my plane. :-(

I heard later that he had had serious health problems (explaining why
he was so frequently not there). Hooking the plane to the car and towing
it to another airport was not really an option, so it waited. And waited...


>Multiple comments read and noted... There are no easy answers to the
>dilemma of GA... The increasing costs of everything are driving folks
>out of flying...

Indeed. As another pointed out, the costs of owning have gone way up.
The cost of fuel has become painful for even a couple of casual pointless
hours in a 172.


> The increasing regs and draconian penalties for
>crossing an invisible line on the ground are driving folks out of
>flying...

Indeed. We used to have freedom to fly, now we are treated as if
everyone in an airplane is a terrorist (other than airlines and a few
special blessed activities).


> The decreasing hours flown are hurting FBO and mechanics...
>It is a vicious circle...

As noted elsewere in this thread, many of us have to be price sensitive
about maintenance -- it is that or not own a plane. But the mechanic has
to eat and pay his rent, too.


>Building an experimental is one solution... I am persuing that, but
>working 12 hours a day seems to get in the way of my motivation...

If you have the space and time. I once read the note that if your goal
was to build an airplane, then build. If your goal was to fly, then building
was probably the wrong way to get there.

Considering the cost of space for the construction for the number of years
needed, and the time required, building can get pretty expensive. We don't
all have large workspaces and appropriate tools already available.


>LSA is a partial answer - and might be in my future as I continue to
>age (hopefully, I will continue to)

Prebuilt S-LSA might be an answer, though one has to do a 120 hour
class to be able to inspect/maintain one of them (and you will still
need the tools and space to do it). Even so, the price of the S-LSA
is pretty substantial as well.

As one who enjoys night flight, and likes to do cross-country a
little above 10,000 feet, LSA doesn't look like it really cuts it.


So with government restrictions (which will probably never go away),
and costs continuing up, I wonder if I will become another who has
left aviation, not to return.


Alan

[Peter Clark]

On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 07:45:58 +0000 (UTC),
(Alan) wrote:

> Waiting months while the mechanic promised he would get to the static
>system check "next week" was probably the thing that really turned the
>corner for the demise of my plane. :-(
>
> I heard later that he had had serious health problems (explaining why
>he was so frequently not there). Hooking the plane to the car and towing
>it to another airport was not really an option, so it waited. And waited...

I've not followed this thread that closely, but if the only problem
was out of date paperwork, why not get a ferry permit and move it that
way? I understand trying to be loyal to someone who's done work for
you before and is making promises, but at what point do you say
"enough" when they haven't completed a 4 hour job, including the
paperwork (if you're talking about a 91.411/413 cert)? Mechanics
complain about owners, but it does work both ways when you have
situations like that.

[Denny]

Color me really annoyed... It took me a day to cool down enough to be
lucid...
The new Lycoming cylinder kits have turned out to contain the wrong
cylinders...%^$#*&!
When I ordered them I called Lycoming and gave the engine serial
number to the voice on the phone who cross checked it and he told me
what the correct cylinders/parts numbers were... Then when I called
AERO they agreed with Lycoming... Never the less, The Kid took one
look at the first new cylinder and said, "nope, won't work." and
simply walked away and went back to rebuilding a customers magneto...
<crusty, just like his dad, and I hate it when he is right like that>

I spent a large chunk of Wednesday afternoon on the phone with the
factory/supplier to solve this... <and I even found that one of the
cylinder kits even has the wrong 'paperwork' inserted in the box <i.e.
the 8130 certifies this to be different cylinder than it actually is
> The nice lady on the phone took all of 3 seconds after I gave her
the engine serial number to agree that the kit I have will not work
<why wasn't she the one who answered the phone the first time?
sheeesh>


Long story short: The supplier is going to ship me 4 new cylinder kits
as soon as Chicago UPS can run their trucks through the snow - so it
will be at least another week before we have cylinders... And they
are going to charge my card for the cylinder kits and shipping
<sigh>... And then they are supposed to - next week - come up with a
way to get the original 4 cylinder kits returned and then supposedly
credit my card <sigh>...

The other issue is that we now can't get Lycoming cylinders for this
engine, so we had a choice between Superior and ECI... The Kid was
campaigning for ECI Nickel cylinders, but they only have 3 on hand..
In the end, we settled for 4 ECI Steel cylinder kits... Which raised
another complication, the lycoming kits have a wrist pin but no rocker
arm pins, so we had sent the rocker pins out for rebuild along with
the rocker arms... The ECI kits come with rocker arm pins and no
wrist pins so I had to order new wrist pins and I will be left with a
set of freshly rebuilt rocker arm pins I have no need for... (oh hell,
it's only pieces of paper with green ink on them)

For those who are still awake at this point and are wondering - I
recycle rocker arm pins because they never break <that I know of> but
I always install new wrist pins - because they do break...

denny

[[email protected]]

On Feb 8, 5:55 am, Denny > wrote:

> I spent a large chunk of Wednesday afternoon on the phone with the
> factory/supplier to solve this... <and I even found that one of the
> cylinder kits even has the wrong 'paperwork' inserted in the box <i.e.
> the 8130 certifies this to be different cylinder than it actually is.

Just be glad you don't have one of those Lycoming cranks that the
last AD demands be scrapped immediately. You *don't* have one,
right??

Dan

[Allen[_1_]]

"Denny" > wrote in message
...
> Color me really annoyed... It took me a day to cool down enough to be
> lucid...
> The new Lycoming cylinder kits have turned out to contain the wrong
> cylinders...%^$#*&!
> When I ordered them I called Lycoming and gave the engine serial
> number to the voice on the phone who cross checked it and he told me
> what the correct cylinders/parts numbers were... Then when I called
> AERO they agreed with Lycoming... Never the less, The Kid took one
> look at the first new cylinder and said, "nope, won't work." and
> simply walked away and went back to rebuilding a customers magneto...
> <crusty, just like his dad, and I hate it when he is right like that>
>
> I spent a large chunk of Wednesday afternoon on the phone with the
> factory/supplier to solve this... <and I even found that one of the
> cylinder kits even has the wrong 'paperwork' inserted in the box <i.e.
> the 8130 certifies this to be different cylinder than it actually is
>> The nice lady on the phone took all of 3 seconds after I gave her
> the engine serial number to agree that the kit I have will not work
> <why wasn't she the one who answered the phone the first time?
> sheeesh>
>
>
> Long story short: The supplier is going to ship me 4 new cylinder kits
> as soon as Chicago UPS can run their trucks through the snow - so it
> will be at least another week before we have cylinders... And they
> are going to charge my card for the cylinder kits and shipping
> <sigh>... And then they are supposed to - next week - come up with a
> way to get the original 4 cylinder kits returned and then supposedly
> credit my card <sigh>...
>
> The other issue is that we now can't get Lycoming cylinders for this
> engine, so we had a choice between Superior and ECI... The Kid was
> campaigning for ECI Nickel cylinders, but they only have 3 on hand..
> In the end, we settled for 4 ECI Steel cylinder kits... Which raised
> another complication, the lycoming kits have a wrist pin but no rocker
> arm pins, so we had sent the rocker pins out for rebuild along with
> the rocker arms... The ECI kits come with rocker arm pins and no
> wrist pins so I had to order new wrist pins and I will be left with a
> set of freshly rebuilt rocker arm pins I have no need for... (oh hell,
> it's only pieces of paper with green ink on them)
>
> For those who are still awake at this point and are wondering - I
> recycle rocker arm pins because they never break <that I know of> but
> I always install new wrist pins - because they do break...
>
> denny

You might check with RAM Aircraft, 254-752-8381 ask for parts sales, they
carry a lot of new ECI cylinders for Lycoming. I would stick with the
nickel if I had the choice.

Allen

[Scott[_5_]]

On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 07:45:58 +0000 (UTC), in rec.aviation.owning,
(Alan) wrote:

>In article > Denny > writes:
>>LSA is a partial answer - and might be in my future as I continue to
>>age (hopefully, I will continue to)
>
> Prebuilt S-LSA might be an answer, though one has to do a 120 hour
>class to be able to inspect/maintain one of them (and you will still
>need the tools and space to do it). Even so, the price of the S-LSA
>is pretty substantial as well.
>
> As one who enjoys night flight, and likes to do cross-country a
>little above 10,000 feet, LSA doesn't look like it really cuts it.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but...if you hold a private certificate,
flying an SLSA doesn't restrict you to light sport piloting rules, does it?
If the plane's equipped and able, why not fly high at night?

IIRC there's at least one IFR equipped SLSA out there.

-Scott

[Newps]

Scott wrote:

> Please correct me if I'm wrong, but...if you hold a private certificate,
> flying an SLSA doesn't restrict you to light sport piloting rules, does it?

No.


> If the plane's equipped and able, why not fly high at night?

Why not indeed.


>
> IIRC there's at least one IFR equipped SLSA out there.

And more coming.

[[email protected]]

On Feb 5, 9:00*am, Denny > wrote:
> Well, The Kid just called at 10:45 AM... The jugs are off and the
> bottom end looks good... The cam is clean... *Looks like a top
> overhaul only (whoo hoo).. *He brightened up when I said lets just do
> a top, figuring he would have it buttoned up by Friday... I have the
> new Lycoming cylinder kits out in the truck to deliver to him...
> So, then I dropped on him that I also want fresh donuts on both motor
> mounts and a new crank seal - that caused him to hesitate... He can
> see his February schedule going to pot anyway... *I'll wait until
> tomorrow to bring up the new hydraulic hoses for the landing gear...

Ya know, after all these little things that are going to screw up his
schedule I can now see why the "other" mechanic dumped you....
IMHO

[Morgans[_2_]]

> wrote

Ya know, after all these little things that are going to screw up his
schedule I can now see why the "other" mechanic dumped you....
IMHO

Yep.

Honesty is the best policy, IMHO. If you want all of those things done, you
should be up front about it.

You want people to be up front with you, you need to be up front with them.
--
Jim in NC

[Alan[_6_]]

In article <47acf2c9.84197893@localhost> (Scott) writes:
>On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 07:45:58 +0000 (UTC), in rec.aviation.owning,
(Alan) wrote:
>
>>In article > Denny > writes:
>>>LSA is a partial answer - and might be in my future as I continue to
>>>age (hopefully, I will continue to)
>>
>> Prebuilt S-LSA might be an answer, though one has to do a 120 hour
>>class to be able to inspect/maintain one of them (and you will still
>>need the tools and space to do it). Even so, the price of the S-LSA
>>is pretty substantial as well.
>>
>> As one who enjoys night flight, and likes to do cross-country a
>>little above 10,000 feet, LSA doesn't look like it really cuts it.
>
>Please correct me if I'm wrong, but...if you hold a private certificate,
>flying an SLSA doesn't restrict you to light sport piloting rules, does it?
>If the plane's equipped and able, why not fly high at night?

I was unclear. It is only occasionally night AND high altitude, more
often it is night OR high altitude; not that it matters for this discussion.

It appears that one can then fly at night with a private (with a medical).
Without a medical, it appears much muddier. What can a private pilot
without a current medical do in an LSA that a sport pilot cannot?

The plane and all of its components (including the engine) must be certified
for that as well. It appears that the common versions of the Rotax engine are
prohibited from night or IFR use by the instructions from Rotax.

Reference: http://www.sportpilot.org/news/051013_ifr.html -which may be out
of date.


>IIRC there's at least one IFR equipped SLSA out there.

Sounds like fun. I wonder how much system redundancy (such as dual electric)
he was able to put in.


Alan

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Alan" wrote>>

> It appears that one can then fly at night with a private (with a
> medical).
> Without a medical, it appears much muddier.

It isn't muddy in the least bit. Without a medical, a private holder is a
light sport pilot. That's all. That means NO night flight, period. At
least not legal, that is.

> What can a private pilot
> without a current medical do in an LSA that a sport pilot cannot?

Not a durn thing, 'cause he is a sport pilot, the second his medical is out
of date, as long as his medical was not turned down, denied, or how ever
else you want to say it.

> The plane and all of its components (including the engine) must be
> certified
> for that as well. It appears that the common versions of the Rotax engine
> are
> prohibited from night or IFR use by the instructions from Rotax.

True, the plane must be equipped for night flight, but most that were
designed as an original European microlight are. I won't say real airplane,
but if it has a real fuselage, and was not originally made as a US
ultralight, chances are that it is OK for night flight. As to what a
"common" Rotax is, you got me guessing. The Rotax 4-strokes are available
certified or not, but the only visible difference is the letter in the name,
and how much documentation comes with the engine, and of course, the cost.

But again, you 'gotta have the medical to fly at night. Cut and dry.
--
Jim in NC

[B A R R Y]

On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 07:23:30 +0000 (UTC),
(Alan) wrote:


> Sounds like fun. I wonder how much system redundancy (such as dual electric)
>he was able to put in.

How many spam cans flown in IFR that are too heavy for LSA have such
things as dual electric?

[B A R R Y]

On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 07:23:30 +0000 (UTC),
(Alan) wrote:


>
> The plane and all of its components (including the engine) must be certified
>for that as well. It appears that the common versions of the Rotax engine are
>prohibited from night or IFR use by the instructions from Rotax.

That's a manufacturer's limitation.

AFAIK, there is no separate "certification" for an airplane for IFR,
over 10,000 ft., or night flight, as long as the aircraft meets the
standards stated in Part 91.

[Denny]

Ummm, actually The Kid is 'quite' happy to have the business...

I am always reasonable, I actually know a bunch about my machine, I
don't whine when something needs fixing ( I'm the one saying, "well,
let's fix it anyway instead of waiting"), I understand that these mom
and pop shops usually live from hand to mouth so I front them a big
chunk what I estimate the final bill is going to be - in cash and
without being asked - and I expect to pay the rest of the bill in full
when I pick up my plane...

In return, I expect to have my plane be #1 on their job list, to keep
me informed of progress, and be happy to perform the repairs and
services I ask for... My last mechanic worked for me for 17 years so
I cannot be that bad...

The owner of the 172 that is waiting the annual is perfectly happy
flying his brand, spanking, new 260hp Maule...
BTW, if anyone is in the market for a really well equipped glass
screen IFR, 180hp SkyHawk, let me know and I'll put you in touch with
him...

denny

[Mike Isaksen]

"B A R R Y" wrote in message ...
> AFAIK, there is no separate "certification" for an airplane for IFR,
> over 10,000 ft., or night flight, as long as the aircraft meets the
> standards stated in Part 91.

Assuming you mean LSAs:
My understanding of the "rules" are that the LSA must be operated within the
limits of the manufacturer's operating manual. The manufactuer does not need
to "grant" privilages, but if it prohibits operations then that's the end.
Also if any component installed by the manufacturer prohibits IFR ops then
the manufacturer must accept that under the ASTM guidelines and thereby
limit the LSA to non IFR. Naturally the FAR part 91 minimum equipment rules
still apply.

[Mike Isaksen]

"Alan" wrote in message ...
> The plane and all of its components (including the engine) must
> be certified for that as well. It appears that the common versions
> of the Rotax engine are prohibited from night or IFR use by the
> instructions from Rotax.

I spoke with Phil Lockwook (generally considered the goto guy when it
involves Rotax) at Hartford Expo about the Rotax's night VFR prohibitions
published in their online engine manuals. He surprised me with a claim that
Rotax had recently lifted that night VFR prohibition on their 912 series
engines (I only asked about the 100hp, I didn't ask about the 912 80hp), and
he also mentioned that it may retro back to a specific earlier serial
number. I did not follow this up for written confirmation, but it may be of
interest for you.

[B A R R Y]

On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 22:29:25 GMT, "Mike Isaksen"
> wrote:

>The manufactuer does not need
>to "grant" privilages, but if it prohibits operations then that's the end.

That's true for ANY aircraft, not just LSA's.

[Mike Isaksen]

> I spoke with Phil Lockwook (generally considered the goto guy when it
> involves Rotax) at Hartford Expo

Man,... sorry about that. I fat fingered Phil's name, it's Lockwood.

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> The new Lycoming cylinder kits have turned out to contain the wrong
> cylinders...%^$#*&!

JEEBUS. What a cluster f*%k.

Owning an aircraft can be SO much fun. It's amazing the number of different
ways ownership can give one an ulcer...

God help me, I love it so...

;-)

Sorry for your headache, Denny. Keep up the faith -- in 18 or 36 months,
this will all be a bad memory, told over stiff drinks....
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Denny]

Thanks, Jay... Well, it could be worse... I could own a boat!

The 'new' cylinders came in yesterday... I assume they are correct
this time... I didn't even open the boxes... I hauled them out to
the airport last night after office hours and stuffed them in the
hangar - in the dark and the cold and the wind (-1 degree, but I'll
bet you know all about that there in eyeoway - my daughter attended
med school in Des Moines so I've had some first hand experience with
your part of the country)
Interestingly, I know they hit my card for another $4K+... But nowhere
did I see the envelope with the RMA stickers to return the other $4K+
of cylinders for credit, like they promised...
I have been in business for a half century, so this isn't my first
rodeo... I'll just keep puttin the spurs to em... The thing they
might not understand is that credit card payments can be reversed in a
heart beat... I'll mention tha tto them on the next phone call...

denny

[[email protected]]

On Feb 12, 5:00*am, Denny > wrote:
> Thanks, Jay... *Well, it could be worse... I could own a boat!
>
> The 'new' cylinders came in yesterday... I assume they are correct
> this time... * I didn't even open the boxes... I hauled them out to
> the airport last night after office hours and stuffed them in the
> hangar - *in the dark and the cold and the wind (-1 degree, but I'll
> bet you know all about that there in eyeoway - my daughter attended
> med school in Des Moines so I've had some first hand experience with
> your part of the country)
> Interestingly, I know they hit my card for another $4K+... But nowhere
> did I see the envelope with the RMA stickers to return the other $4K+
> of cylinders for credit, like they promised...
> I have been in business for a half century, so this isn't my first
> rodeo... *I'll just keep puttin the spurs to em... *The thing they
> might not understand is that credit card payments can be reversed in a
> heart beat... *I'll mention tha tto them on the next phone call...
>
> denny

Now that you have the "correct" cylinders a call placed to the credit
card company right now to contest the charges seems like the prudent
thing to do. Just hope the new cylinders are correct. :<)... Funny how
they accidently left out the RMA form... Coincidence,,, I THINK
NOT. !!!!!

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> Thanks, Jay... Well, it could be worse... I could own a boat!

For sure. Now THERE is a money pit.

Day One of our annual today. Took 30 minutes to shovel out the hangar, only
to discover that the tires were flat-spotted, and I couldn't move the plane
by myself. Standing on slick, snow-dusted concrete didn't help -- but
mostly it was just everything was so cold -- wheel bearing grease, tires
stiff as boards.

I considered hooking a tow rope onto the tow bar. I considered simply
starting the plane and driving it out of the hangar. I finally got so
****ed at the situation and myself that I managed to heave the plane out
with a long, 90-second all-out effort, but not before I hurt both calves and
my back. Stupid. Then spent the day wrenching and unscrewing. Hurting
everywhere, but working on self-medication...

Got all the inspection plates off, wheel pants off, interior removed,
oil/filter changed. My A&P checked compressions (all 79 or 80), checked the
oil filter (clean) -- the expensive stuff appears clean.

Gonna need two new tires (definitely ordering the "leak-free" inner tubes).
The prop may be at the end of its life, but we'll see. It's a 1991 prop,
with 2100 hours on it -- way past time, based on McCauley's recommendations.
My old A&P, however, owned a prop shop for 25 years, and doesn't put much
stock in anything but current condition -- he's pretty sure it's fine, but
he's gonna check it over tomorrow.

So, tomorrow it's back to the hangar to jack 'er up, pack the wheel
bearings, etc, etc, etc. Hard to believe, but this will be my 10th
owner-assisted annual; it all feels very familiar.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
"Denny" > wrote in message
...
>
> Thanks, Jay... Well, it could be worse... I could own a boat!
>
> The 'new' cylinders came in yesterday... I assume they are correct
> this time... I didn't even open the boxes... I hauled them out to
> the airport last night after office hours and stuffed them in the
> hangar - in the dark and the cold and the wind (-1 degree, but I'll
> bet you know all about that there in eyeoway - my daughter attended
> med school in Des Moines so I've had some first hand experience with
> your part of the country)
> Interestingly, I know they hit my card for another $4K+... But nowhere
> did I see the envelope with the RMA stickers to return the other $4K+
> of cylinders for credit, like they promised...
> I have been in business for a half century, so this isn't my first
> rodeo... I'll just keep puttin the spurs to em... The thing they
> might not understand is that credit card payments can be reversed in a
> heart beat... I'll mention tha tto them on the next phone call...
>
> denny

[Jon Woellhaf]

Jay Honeck wrote about his annual, "... My A&P checked compressions (all 79
or 80) ..."

Jay, are you sure that leak down tester is working? I can't imagine how any
cylinder, let alone all six, can be that high.

But then, I'm not a mechanic, I just play one when I work on my plane. <g>

Jon

[T. McQuinn]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> Gonna need two new tires (definitely ordering the "leak-free" inner
> tubes).
>

Leak-free inner tubes??????? They make such a thing?

Tom (79 Archer with the gawdawful wheel pants)

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> Jay, are you sure that leak down tester is working? I can't imagine how
> any cylinder, let alone all six, can be that high.

I've had my doubts about his equipment for years -- the compressions on my
engine are always 78 or highter -- but I did the procedure myself this time,
with his guidance. The gauges work as advertised, and I don't know how they
could be anything but right. I mean, it's a pretty simple device and test.

I guess it pays to fly every few days? Dunno -- but I'm not looking a gift
horse in the mouth. (And I can heartily recommend Millennium cylinders!)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> Leak-free inner tubes??????? They make such a thing?

Well, okay -- not leak "free". "Leak slower" might be a better name.
Cutting edge 1929 technology!

All I know is this: Anything that means we have to fill the tires even half
as often will go a long ways toward enhancing my marriage.

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[T. McQuinn]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>> Leak-free inner tubes??????? They make such a thing?
>
> Well, okay -- not leak "free". "Leak slower" might be a better name.
> Cutting edge 1929 technology!
>
> All I know is this: Anything that means we have to fill the tires even
> half as often will go a long ways toward enhancing my marriage.
>
> ;-)
I wasn't trying to be pedantic. I've actually never heard of such a
thing. Is there a better than average inner tube that a guy can buy? I
have to push my plane up an incline to get it into the hangar. It's
steep enough that I can do it, but just barely - slightly low tire
pressure = maximum effort pushing.

Tom

[[email protected]]

On Feb 13, 7:17 am, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> > Jay, are you sure that leak down tester is working? I can't imagine how
> > any cylinder, let alone all six, can be that high.
>
> I've had my doubts about his equipment for years -- the compressions on my
> engine are always 78 or highter -- but I did the procedure myself this time,
> with his guidance. The gauges work as advertised, and I don't know how they
> could be anything but right. I mean, it's a pretty simple device and test.
>
> I guess it pays to fly every few days? Dunno -- but I'm not looking a gift
> horse in the mouth. (And I can heartily recommend Millennium cylinders!)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

Those testers have a .040" diameter by .250" orifice inside
them, between the gauges. If the tester goes haywire it's usually dirt
or other crud in the orifice, and the readings would be very low if
that happened. To get high readings you'd need that hole drilled out,
not very likely.

Dan

[RST Engineering]

Perhaps not leak-free, but a hell of a lot better than what we've come to
know and love as swiss-cheese inner tubes.

Desser Tire and Rubber has them for about half the price of a recapped tire.
I've been using recaps for about forty years now on everything I've owned
and/or worked on without a bother. Half the price of "new" and they'll take
your old tires in on trade.

I figure if the airlines use recaps on a regular basis they should be good
for an asel.

Jim

--
"If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right."
--Henry Ford

"T. McQuinn" > wrote in message
...
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>>
>> Gonna need two new tires (definitely ordering the "leak-free" inner
>> tubes).
>>
>
> Leak-free inner tubes??????? They make such a thing?
>
> Tom (79 Archer with the gawdawful wheel pants)

[nrp]

> Jay, are you sure that leak down tester is working? I can't imagine how any
> cylinder, let alone all six, can be that high.
I agree. I never saw one over about 76 in 30 years of measurements on
a new O-320E2D.

[[email protected]]

On Feb 13, 12:25 pm, nrp > wrote:
> > Jay, are you sure that leak down tester is working? I can't imagine how any
> > cylinder, let alone all six, can be that high.
>
> I agree. I never saw one over about 76 in 30 years of measurements on
> a new O-320E2D.

We've seen 79 here a few times. Typically mid-70s on airplanes that
are flown every day. O-320E2Ds.

Dan

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:C%Csj.31873$9j6.10065@attbi_s22...
>> Leak-free inner tubes??????? They make such a thing?
>
> Well, okay -- not leak "free". "Leak slower" might be a better name.
> Cutting edge 1929 technology!
>
> All I know is this: Anything that means we have to fill the tires even
> half as often will go a long ways toward enhancing my marriage.

Have you adopted the use of nitrogen for filling your tires?
--
Jim in NC

[Rip]

T. McQuinn wrote:
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>>
>> Gonna need two new tires (definitely ordering the "leak-free" inner
>> tubes).
>>
>
> Leak-free inner tubes??????? They make such a thing?
>
> Tom (79 Archer with the gawdawful wheel pants)

One version is made by Michelin, under the trade name "AirStop".
They're the only tubes I stock in my shop, and I use them on my Navion.
With the old tubes, tire pressures needed checking every week. With the
AirStops, maybe 3 times a year. Worth the high price, IMHO.

Rip

[Denny]

Well, well, Murphy just keeps truckin along...

I called the supplier about the RMA.. "Why it is right in the box with
the wrist pins.", the cheerful lady chirped... Now that box is all of
4 inches square and supposedly packed full of heavy wall wrist pins
and bronze buttons... It sure doesn't look like there is room for a
wad of RMA's...
"Ouhh, oh OK.", I mumbled...
"Hey, open the box of wrist pins and get the RMA's out, wouldja.", I
call over top of a couple of planes to The Kid... The reply is a grunt
as he unfolds from down by the landing gear, and the shuffle of feet
as he heads for the pile of new parts - hydraulic lines, starter,
cylinders, Lord mounts, etc... I hear ripping sounds and he uses his
'pocket' knife - think Rambo II - to saw the box open...
A couple of grunts, and then, "Yup, the RMA is here, but you are not
going to be happy." I hear the thud as he tosses solid metal parts
onto the ancient wood work bench...
Instant comprehension on my part... "No way, Jose!", I growl.
"Yup.", is the flat reply...
"Ahh jeez... You talked to her personally!" I refused to take any more
blame for this mess and made him place the order for the new cylinders
and pins...
"Yup."
"You told her exactly which wrist pins and which buttons we need."
"Yup."
"And the ones they sent are wrong?"
"Yup."
"OK, you make the phone call." I slid my phone across the bench...
"Because if I do, I will start cursing and then you will throw
something at me." The Kid is a very moral fella...
"I spect so.", he agrees...
He dials the phone... I stomp outside to throw some snowballs...
Now my arm hurts...

[[email protected]]

On Feb 13, 5:32*pm, Denny > wrote:
> Well, well, Murphy just keeps truckin along...
>
> I called the supplier about the RMA.. "Why it is right in the box with
> the wrist pins.", the cheerful lady chirped... *Now that box is all of
> 4 inches square and supposedly packed full of heavy wall wrist pins
> and bronze buttons... It sure doesn't look like there is room for a
> wad of RMA's...
> "Ouhh, oh OK.", I mumbled...
> "Hey, open the box of wrist pins and get the RMA's out, wouldja.", I
> call over top of a couple of planes to The Kid... The reply is a grunt
> as he unfolds from down by the landing gear, and the shuffle of feet
> as he heads for the pile of new parts - hydraulic lines, starter,
> cylinders, Lord mounts, etc... *I hear ripping sounds and he uses his
> 'pocket' knife - think Rambo II - to saw the box open...
> A couple of grunts, and then, "Yup, the RMA is here, but you are not
> going to be happy." *I hear the thud as he tosses solid metal parts
> onto the ancient wood work bench...
> Instant comprehension on my part... "No way, Jose!", I growl.
> "Yup.", is the flat reply...
> "Ahh jeez... You talked to her personally!" I refused to take any more
> blame for this mess and made him place the order for the new cylinders
> and pins...
> "Yup."
> "You told her exactly which wrist pins and which buttons we need."
> "Yup."
> "And the ones they sent are wrong?"
> "Yup."
> "OK, you make the phone call." I slid my phone across the bench...
> "Because if I do, I will start cursing and then you will throw
> something at me." *The Kid is a very moral fella...
> *"I spect so.", he agrees...
> He dials the phone... I stomp outside to throw some snowballs...
> Now my arm hurts...

Ya gotta love the "FAA Certified network of parts suppliers."

And how do ya spell relief ??? .


EXPERIMENTAL.!!!!!!!

Lil Ben,,, giggling in the corner...

[Ray Andraka]

RST Engineering wrote:
> Perhaps not leak-free, but a hell of a lot better than what we've come to
> know and love as swiss-cheese inner tubes.
>
> Desser Tire and Rubber has them for about half the price of a recapped tire.
> I've been using recaps for about forty years now on everything I've owned
> and/or worked on without a bother. Half the price of "new" and they'll take
> your old tires in on trade.
>
> I figure if the airlines use recaps on a regular basis they should be good
> for an asel.
>
> Jim
>


There are two on the market: Michelin makes an "airstop" tube, I think
the other is made by Dresser and is called a "leak-guard" tube. They
cost a little more than the swiss cheese tubes, but if you have piper
wheel pants, it is very worth the extra couple of bucks.

[Ray Andraka]

Morgans wrote:

> Have you adopted the use of nitrogen for filling your tires?

Why, what does that do for you? Air is 78% N2, and 21% O2. The O2 is a
bigger molecule than N2, so I wouldn't expect to see any difference in
the leak down. The only benefit I am aware of relates to tire fires in
airplanes that go much higher and faster than our spam cans.

It would be an interesting science fair project for a suitably inclined
middle school student though!

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> There are two on the market: Michelin makes an "airstop" tube, I think
> the other is made by Dresser and is called a "leak-guard" tube. They cost
> a little more than the swiss cheese tubes, but if you have piper wheel
> pants, it is very worth the extra couple of bucks.

My A&P ordered the Dresser brand. Still waiting for them to arrive.

Our "Fancy Pants" have been modified by my A&P over the years so that they
now attach with Phillips screws and a couple of bolts. They are MUCH more
secure than they were with the old wowed-out dzu connectors -- but, OH MY
GOD, what a friggin' pain in the ass to remove!

It has become my absolute least favorite task of the annual -- even worse
than pulling a gas tank. (Which I had to do yesterday -- on of our
sending-unit floats had fallen off, and had to be fished out and
re-attached.) The screws strip easily, the fiberglass breaks easily, and
the whole procedure must be done while laying sideways under the plane,
usually in a puddle of gas or oil. IT SUCKS.

I'd fly without wheel pants, except the guy who put 'em on told me that --
of all the speed mods he put on Atlas (and it's got all of them) -- the
wheel pants got him the biggest increase in speed.

So, I suffer once a year. If the tires/tubes/rotor comes tomorrow, you can
think of me sitting in that puddle, cursing...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Ray Andraka" > wrote
>
> Why, what does that do for you? Air is 78% N2, and 21% O2. The O2 is a
> bigger molecule than N2, so I wouldn't expect to see any difference in the
> leak down. The only benefit I am aware of relates to tire fires in
> airplanes that go much higher and faster than our spam cans.
>
> It would be an interesting science fair project for a suitably inclined
> middle school student though!

It is an increasingly common practice, and it does seem to leak more slowly.
Heat transfer is also helped.
It is even becoming more common with tire shops for cars.
--
Jim in NC

[Denny]

The new, new wrist pins came next day air <yesterday>... I will take
them out to The Kid after office hours today <noon> and maybe we will
even hang the cylinders since I will be there to give him a hand...
He called yesterday with the news that he found a 'ring' cracked when
he went to mount the prop after replacing the crank seal... Mumbled
something about $400 if he can find one used... I was so unsurprised
by this time that I just said - fine, do it - and hung up... I will
clarify what is cracked when I get there - I suspect the starter gear
ring... This is actually the only 'surprise' so far and if it is a
few hundred and some labor it will be a minor addition to the total
bill...
In spite of everything I have posted on this annual the problems have
been delays and the aggravation of exchanging incorrect parts... The
costs have amounted to a few extra dollars for shipping...

More later...

denny

[Peter Fanelli]

"Morgans" > wrote in
:

>
> "Ray Andraka" > wrote
>>
> It is even becoming more common with tire shops for cars.

Wouldn't be the first time the auto industry has copied something from the
aviation industry for the sake of allowing people that are too stupid to
know any better to part with their money for something which is of
absolutely no benefit to them.

Let me guess, these shops also charge extra for a nitrogen fill too right?



--
Made in China.....A label used to warn of dangerous materials.

[Mike Noel]

The Discovery Channel did a segment explaining why N2 is better. This page
has a link to the segment:

http://www.getnitrogen.org/

Basically, it leaks more slowly and preserves the rubber.

--
Best Regards,
Mike

http://photoshow.comcast.net/mikenoel


"Ray Andraka" > wrote in message
...
> Morgans wrote:
>
>> Have you adopted the use of nitrogen for filling your tires?
>
> Why, what does that do for you? Air is 78% N2, and 21% O2. The O2 is a
> bigger molecule than N2, so I wouldn't expect to see any difference in the
> leak down. The only benefit I am aware of relates to tire fires in
> airplanes that go much higher and faster than our spam cans.
>
> It would be an interesting science fair project for a suitably inclined
> middle school student though!

[Roger[_4_]]

On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 21:36:08 -0500, Ray Andraka >
wrote:

>RST Engineering wrote:
>> Perhaps not leak-free, but a hell of a lot better than what we've come to
>> know and love as swiss-cheese inner tubes.
>>
>> Desser Tire and Rubber has them for about half the price of a recapped tire.
>> I've been using recaps for about forty years now on everything I've owned
>> and/or worked on without a bother. Half the price of "new" and they'll take
>> your old tires in on trade.
>>
>> I figure if the airlines use recaps on a regular basis they should be good
>> for an asel.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>
>
>There are two on the market: Michelin makes an "airstop" tube, I think
>the other is made by Dresser and is called a "leak-guard" tube. They
>cost a little more than the swiss cheese tubes, but if you have piper
>wheel pants, it is very worth the extra couple of bucks.

I've been using the Dresser version for a couple of years now. I went
from pumping up the tires every 4 to 8 weeks to over a year with the
change. Last time the mains were pumped up was over a year ago. They
are still good.


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Ray Andraka]

Mike Noel wrote:
> The Discovery Channel did a segment explaining why N2 is better. This page
> has a link to the segment:
>
> http://www.getnitrogen.org/
>
> Basically, it leaks more slowly and preserves the rubber.
>


OK, I'll buy the reducing the oxidation of the rubber on the inside.
Since I've never had to replace an aircraft tire or tube due to the
rubber breaking down, I don't think this is significant except maybe for
a hangar queen.

I don't buy the "leaks more slowly", not for an instant. Oh wait, it is
published on a website that is promoting use of nitrogen in tires. That
means it must be true, right? Silly me.

If the air loss is indeed due to the other gasses leaking out, then each
time I top off my tire, the N2 concentration inside the tire should
increase, since presumably the pressure lost was due mostly to the
oxygen molecules leaking out and my making up the difference with air
which is 78% nitrogen. Eventually, I'd have near pure nitrogen in my
tires just from replenishing the air each time the tire is low if I
followed this reasoning to an extreme.

I understand that in certain aircraft, the oxygen in tires can be a fire
hazard, which I think is where filling with nitrogen originated. For
our light aircraft though, this isn't a concern. No, I suspect most of
the nitrogen for tires hype is just another way to separate cash from a
wallet.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Ray Andraka" > wrote

> I don't buy the "leaks more slowly", not for an instant. Oh wait, it is
> published on a website that is promoting use of nitrogen in tires. That
> means it must be true, right? Silly me.
>
Too bad you musta flunked high school chemistry. N2 is a bigger molecule
than O2.

It leaks more slowly. It is common knowledge, among those that have open
minds.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans[_2_]]

"John Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Morgans" > wrote:
>
>> "Ray Andraka" > wrote
>>
>> > I don't buy the "leaks more slowly", not for an instant. Oh wait, it
>> > is
>> > published on a website that is promoting use of nitrogen in tires.
>> > That
>> > means it must be true, right? Silly me.
>> >
>> Too bad you musta flunked high school chemistry. N2 is a bigger molecule
>> than O2.
>
> Jim, I think that is what Ray said.

No, read the whole thing in context. He was making fun of the fact that it
is said to leak more slowly, because it is being promoted by the people who
are selling the nitrogen.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans[_2_]]

"John Smith" > wrote

> I read it that he was inferring that the average reader is not
> discriminating enough to realize it is the smaller molecule that would
> leak out, hence his reference to more N being in the tube than O.

I guess that only proves that sometimes two people can read the same thing
and come away with different conclusions.

Of course, my conclusion is the correct conclusion! <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Roger[_4_]]

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:26:15 -0500, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>
>"Ray Andraka" > wrote
>
>> I don't buy the "leaks more slowly", not for an instant. Oh wait, it is
>> published on a website that is promoting use of nitrogen in tires. That
>> means it must be true, right? Silly me.
>>
>Too bad you musta flunked high school chemistry. N2 is a bigger molecule
>than O2.You sure about that?

Ah, no.
N2 = 2X 14 = 28 and O2 = 2 X 16 = 30. It ain't by much but O2 has
the larger molecule, but by a very small margin. One small enough to
be almost insignificant.
..
Jut do a search based on "The size of a nitrogen molecule compared to
Oxygen" and you will get a whole bunch of pages debunking the N2 in
tires claim.

>
>It leaks more slowly. It is common knowledge, among those that have open
>minds.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com